Wanna Grab Coffee, Just Between You and Me?

Krispin and DL interview Grace Baldridge (who performs music under the name Semler). We talk religious trauma and cringe-worthy middle school stories.

We reference the songs Toby Mac and Wanna Grab Coffee? by Semler

We talk about the book about martyrs title Jesus Freaks, which DL talked with their sisters about a few episodes back.

Make sure to check out Grace's docuseries, State of Grace. Our favorite episode is "The Life Threatening Dangers Of Gay Conversion Therapy," where they interview Jackie Hill Perry.

We’d love for you to consider joining our patreon community to support this podcast. 

You can find us on Twitter and Instagram.

Thanks to Bonnie Downing for helping with transcription for this episode. You can find the transcript our website.

TRANSCRIPT

Between You & Me

[00:00:00]

Krispin: Hey y'all. We are here with Grace Baldridge, who plays under the moniker Semler. Um, so excited to talk to you today. You are the first openly queer artist that made it to number one, uh, in iTunes in the Christian charts, right? Is that your, I don't know if that's what you would choose as your claim to fame?

DL: It's one of them, right?

Grace: I don't know if I would choose a claim to fame but yeah, I think that's, that's pretty much the SparkNotes.

Krispin: Yeah. And so, and right now you're working on new music. Is that true? Is that what I’ve been seeing on social media?

Grace: It’s true. Um, yeah, later today I will be working on some mixing and hopefully there'll be a new project out this spring, and I'm so, so excited about it. It's been just about a year since my last, um, release, so I can't wait to get back out there. Um, I love touring and so I'm really hoping that that willhappen more. [00:01:00] And yeah, it's been a really fun year and I really am looking forward to this year. I just have a good feeling about it. Oh, I don't wanna jinx it.

Krispin: No, we're, we are excited. Yeah, we'll talk about it later, but I saw you play in Portland last year, last spring. Has it been that long? Um, and it was really, I just, it was so moving. So we'll talk about that later. But we're just really excited to have you on the pod today and, uh, excited to talk about DC Talk.

Grace: Let's do it.

DL: Are we? Are we excited to talk about DC Talk?

Grace: I am.

Krispin: Yes.

DL: Ok good.

Krispin:  Grace and I are.

DL: We need a, some fresh wind because I am like here to shit talk it, and also just allow myself to be as confused as I probably was as a kid listening to these songs and like trying really hard to like, make them meaningful. Now I'm just like, what the fuck?

I don't understand what any of this is about. Anywho, we're so happy you're here with us.

Grace: Thank you so much for having [00:02:00] me.

Krispin: I was gonna say, you've like, you've talked a lot about this music that you grew up listening to. You wrote a song called Toby Mac, which talks about DC Talk. Um, and you recently went on tour with a Reliant K, um, which if listeners did not know that, like you opened for them, um, and like you've just been out there talking, like reclaiming the music that you grew up listening to.

Grace: Totally. I think it's not the path that I would've anticipated for myself back when I was in the midst of it all, but I think it is the only way that I know how to process some things. And really it's been a very beautiful journey. Confusing to be sure for me, and I'm in it, but, uh, I, I've gotten to meet some incredible people and reclaiming, and I think also just taking up space, is something that [00:03:00] has been, it's uncomfortable but it's also super meaningful and it's reinforced to me that sometimes the things about us that we're like really ashamed of that we don't want to talk about actually can be a catalyst for creating more community and connection. Like the thing that I was the most scared of acknowledging and dealing with has really opened up a lot of love in my life and friendship and a deeper sense of faith as well. So it's weird, but here we are.

Krispin: I love it. Yeah, so I know that you have a specific story about the song we're gonna talk about today. Um, but before we go there, what's your background with DC Talk in general?

Grace: What's, I mean, background. They were more like bedrock. Um, DC Talk was probably my [00:04:00] first favorite band. That wasn't something from my parents, so it wasn't something of my parents' generation. It was a band that, you know, was kind of the only thing that was presented to me. So I didn't know that I wasn't given actually choice, but uh, they were like my first favorite band cuz they were a band that I really liked.

But my parents were kind of like so-so on. Although I think, you know, I'm sure my dad was elated that they were a Christian band. Again, not that I was given a choice to discover other types of bands, , but I didn't know that. So…

Krispin: How was, so, how was it like, did you discover them, like through friends or was it your parents like, gave you the CD for Christmas or like…

Grace: Well, so my dad was a, uh, an Episcopal priest and also he was really involved in youth work and like the youth departments of whatever church we were belonging to. So he would, I guess, have [00:05:00] some sort of a subscription box? Honestly ahead of their time. It was a, because before people were doing subscription boxes.

Every month we would get this box from some Christian media company with like posters and reading material. Cause I also grew up in Belgium so I didn't have like American Christian bookstores to go to. We, it was in the box and it was really a very exciting time of the month to see like what CDs we would get and DVDs and all this stuff.

And this was how I understood the media landscape was through the CCM box. And so, um, it, sometimes my dad would be like, oh, the new Cindy Morgan CD. And I'd be like, well, no offense to Cindy Morgan. I'm sure she's a lovely lady. But I'd be like “lame,” but then I would see the cover of, um, I think it was Supernatural, was the first CD of DC Talk’s I saw.

And I just was like, this looks cool and these people look cool and they don't look so sort of buttoned up and so this is fun now.

Krispin: [00:06:00] Don’t look so much like Cindy Morgan?

Grace: Yeah. No, we can't. I think she's sweet. I think, I don't know, but I hope she's well, it's not her fault. I'm sure she had like very rigid parameters that she had to operate within as well as an artist, it's not her fault, Cindy Morgan.

And honestly, let me, today I'm gonna go back and listen to your music and I shouldn't have judged a CD by its cover. You are correct in pointing that out and I did. And that's how I found DC Talk. And I just, I also think that their musicality, when you listen to their early releases, was pretty undeniable.

Like each, what type of a band? Where each member has such a distinct artistic perspective, it's pretty rare. So for that to exist within a Christian landscape where there's so much repression, so much, you know, being a cookie-cutter type mold I thought was really refreshing. I also think that Kevin Max, um, who I've since very fortunately been able to come in contact with, he always just read as like a safe person to me. Like [00:07:00] there was always something because I knew that I was different. I didn't have words for it quite at the time. I was still figuring out that I was gay. But there was something about Kevin Max and his solo work as well, that I was like, I feel like this guy is so like, I don't know, there's something about him.

I feel like I can be myself around Kevin Max and I just, I just really like them, so I was a very, very big DC Talk fan.

Krispin: Mm-hmm. Hey, I am in that same camp of like, I loved Kevin Max's solo work. Like I didn't follow anyone else, but, uh, yeah, it was, it was good stuff. So the song we're gonna talk about today is called “Between You and Me”. [musical clip from “Between You and Me”] And you have a specific, uh, story about this song,

Grace: I do, I do. Unfortunately, I have a number of similar stories, which is that in [00:08:00] I think about middle school, we would've talent shows. And I was very excited to share my vocal talents with my seventh grade class, I think sixth or seventh grade.

Krispin: What kind of school was this?

Grace: This was an international school. It was a small international school.

Um, it was founded by nuns, but because it was international and Belgium is, um, where the European Union is based, there was a lot of diversity and pluralism of faith and religion. So, so much to say that I was pretty much one of maybe three kids that thought that DC Talk were the biggest pop stars in the world.

I, everyone else had normal media.

Krispin: Okay.

Grace: So this was, but this was around the time when I was like piecing it together cuz you're in middle school, you start kind of kicking the tires of your upbringing, figuring out like who your parents are, like understanding my dad's job, blah, blah, blah. [00:09:00] So prior to this time, I thought that I knew all the same songs and like everyone, we're all on the same page here about what is music.

We all know DC Talk is the biggest boy band. Who are the Backstreet Boys? I don't know. Never heard of them. It's DC Talk.

DL: Who are they? Who are they?

Grace: Who are they? Never heard of them. So it was a talent show, I wanted to sing. And again, the songs that I would know to sing that I was like practicing in my room were, uh, DC Talk songs.

So, “Between You and Me.” And so my dad ordered a bunch of CDs that were, you know, how they had, Now This Is Music for the secular world. Well, there was, I think it was like, Wow, this is, there was, it was called Wow. But they also had Wow Karaoke. If it wasn't Wow, it was like the same, basically they would take whatever was on Wow. And they would do karaoke. So my dad got a bunch of CDs of that, of the karaoke, cuz he was like, great, you're stacked for, for the rest of middle school. Anytime you need to do a talent show, here you go. Here's [00:10:00] every song that you know. So like, here it is, um, so I had a karaoke thing of, um, of “Just Between You and Me” by DC Talk, which I realize now is actually like pretty rare.

Like, it could be valuable, I should sell it. Um, and I performed it for my talent show and kind of thinking in my brain, like really thinking I was about to have like a Celine Dion moment. Like people were gonna hear the opening. [musical clip from “Between You and Me”] The “ooh-ooh.” And the crowd was gonna go crazy. Like, I thought they were gonna be like, oh my God, this is the best DC Talk song. And it was, it was like a real crickets performance, and furthermore, it did kind of, it was like, I felt, and I'm sure I still have friends from this time, and they're so sweet and they love me so much and they, we've all [00:11:00] gone through so much together.

Everyone has embarrassing stories from middle school. I'm not so unique, but I do feel like that was a watershed moment for me where I basically like outed myself for being raised in a rectory, which I knew that I was, but I always was like, Oh, but I'm normal. Like I'm normal. It's not that weird. And I think like doing this performance where other kids are singing like Linkin Park and I was like, what is happening? And then I get up there and to sing, you know, first of all it's a tricky song to sing all three parts. They overlap a lot and it's a hard thing for one person to do, much less a 12-year-old. That's hard. And it was just, it really exposed me to the rest of my classmates because the rest of the day I just, they were like, what?

What did you sing? Like, what was that? And I was like, it’s this really cool band?

DL: “What was that?”

Grace: If I'd been thinking ahead and this is what I would do in high [00:12:00] school. If I'd been thinking ahead, I could have taken the hipster approach. I mean like, you don't know DC Talk? Like, they're huge. Like wow, that's weird. Like they're a really good band. And that's what I did in high school when a Christian band would come on, um, like I had to sit, we had to submit songs for like our runout tape and basketball and they'd be like, who is Five Iron Frenzy? I'm like, um, they're this like really indie band. You don’t know them.

Krispin: Well,

DL: Wow, okay. I have so many questions. I did bring to mind a memory. I was homeschooled, so like, your life seems so glamorous compared to my little isolated, um, homeschool life in like Wyoming. But I did do TaeKwonDo and we did like, we performed a Geoff Moore and the Distance song in our TaeKwonDo class, and everybody was like, what the hell?

And I think that was a very watershed moment for me. I also realized in TaeKwonDo, like, I don't know how to do my hair. Like I just learned a lot about being a 12-year-old, you [00:13:00] know, socialized as female that I was like, something's weird, like something's off. And my music is just one of those things that makes me very odd.

And so I just had this memory of like, I thought Geoff Moore and the Distance were like the shit, you know? And nobody knew. Nobody knew what we were doing. So thanks for bringing back that awful memory.

Grace: See, this is to my point earlier about the things that you're maybe embarrassed about that you think make you different or weird. Actually, the lesson I've been learning recently is that by sharing these parts of us, we find a lot of connection. No, we didn't all have the exact same thing, but we all kind of remember that moment.

It's a little bit like figuring out that you're in National Treasure of like what? Like these, like these pieces, like they're not actually like adding up.

Krispin: Yes.

DL: That's a very good analogy. Now, I had, I do have a question about the song. Did, like when you were singing it, now it makes more sense. You had this karaoke track. Okay. You thought the vocals were great and interesting, it sounds like, but as far as the song goes, [00:14:00] did you know what it was about?

Because I'm quite confused. I, I think growing up I always thought it was a song about, I need to confess to God my sins so that I can be, or like to Jesus, you know what I mean? And then I can be closer to God. But Krispin’s like, no, it's about confessing to like a friend.

Grace: Yeah. So to, that's another reason why I really liked the song was because it didn't, it wasn't overtly Christian. It wasn't like saying like, praise his name, like the King of Kings. I think that would've been even in my 12- to 13-year-old brain, I would've been like, that might isolate the room. Uh, so let's not sing one of those.

And I always interpreted the song to mean something about a friend coming clean to another friend about something and like clearing your conscience and how confessing and opening up to someone is hard. But that's the only path towards healing. And [00:15:00] to me, I interpret it as a song about honesty and sometimes it can be really hard to be honest with people and the little especially at that age, I think you're learning about what is the truth. And also sometimes, like you tell white lies to protect people's feelings and that sort of compounds on the conscience of a kid and you're still figuring out where you, where your moral boundaries are on just social norms and things. And so that's, I think, how I interpreted it to mean.

But confessing to God is way more intense. So that's kind of a hard rock, uh, interpretation.

DL: I'm a very intense person.

Grace: On your knee like, confessing.

DL:  I'm a very intense person. And in fact, now that I am, um, just my personal journey, I am really researching like high-control religions and all this stuff. And I've been delving into, uh, sort of this like cult psychology that was developed like in the fifties and sixties by looking at, you know, MaoistChina.

[00:16:00] And they came up with these like eight elements of thought reform or brainwashing. And one of the main elements is creating a cult of confession. So creating an atmosphere where people divulge personal failings, right, to each other, cuz that creates these bonds of the community. And you can only become pure in that community if you confess.

And then you can go to the throne of God. So I'm coming at it from a little bit of like conspiracy theorist mind right? This morning. And so I'm just like, is this a part of the cult of confession? Because that's how it played out in my life and I, I don't think that happened for everybody.

Grace: I certainly think it could have and probably was used that way. Cause I think that to your point about confession within very like insular, puritanical Christian communities, there also is that leverage when people…

Krispin: Yesss. Mm-hmm.

Grace: tell you who they are and express a truth about something that might be difficult or might be counter to the social order of [00:17:00] that group.

So it - definitely from, I'm sure that there's someone, maybe even someone listening that would be like, yeah, I remember this song specifically was cited as a reason to confess, that it's was used to have control. But I think for me, and this is where it's like, I'm kind of an odd case because my dad is an Episcopal priest and the Episcopal tradition has been on the more progressive side of things, and they've certainly come a long way than when I was growing up.

Um, but the confession and the leverage and the control was not really something that I strongly felt or like directly experienced, it was more indirect. It was like I didn't, I don't think that my dad thought that he was controlling me by controlling the media that was allowed into the home. I think that there was something like, this is what's quote unquote appropriate, and so kind of our journey has been more in challenging, like why we're certain things inappropriate [00:18:00] versus other like, let's discuss like, let's kind of, you know, kick the tires on that.

And that's been more my experience than like this very rigid control because truly, like when I was able to come out to my parents, they were very accepting and loving. And I know I'm really fortunate in that regard, but they just didn't know what they didn't know, they were just really in this, like this is the way that people are.

And it's like sometimes they're, a lot of times they're not . And how do you accommodate and love those people as well? And fortunately for me it was like, oh well we wanna learn and educate ourselves and I'm so curious and I didn't see all these different things. So the control element wasn't super prevalent for me, but inadvertently, yeah, I mean, when you're controlling like the music thatkids, listen to, like has access to, like that is controlling. I just don't think that they're like the intent behind it was a little different.

Krispin: Mm-hmm.

DL: Yeah and I think for us, you know, we have two kids. We have a 12 year old and a seven year old, and it has been fascinating. That's [00:19:00] really been the thing that has sparked for me my awareness of like, oh yeah, parents have so much control versus their kids and you have to be so, um, aware of that and respectful of whoever doesn't have power in your life, including kids.

So it's, I was raised very fundamentalist. So different from your approach and part of me listening to like how your parents were able just to not be, like a lot of our listeners probably backgrounds, like, I wonder if that has also helped you be able to do some of this reclaiming work where not everybody's able to access that ability. I mean, I'm still in the thick of like, I was listening to DC Talk in the car today, taking my kids to school so I could like be here for this conversation. And right after the song ended, um, “Blessed Be Your Name” came on Spotify, I guess cuz they're like, you're a Christian again, let's get this music going for you!

Grace: Yeah, welcome back. Yeah.

DL: Um, and just like, like those, I was just like ew, like my body, [00:20:00] nd I'm immediately remembering all the church services I went to where I had to sing that song, cuz everybody else is singing it. And I had to mean it because I'm autistic, so I have to mean it if I'm singing it. So I'm forcing myself to be like, yes, every bad thing that happens, I will praise you, God.

You know, I'm like transported back to this and now I'm just like, fuck that. Fuck you. I don't,

Grace: Mm-hmm.

DL: but I'm just like, that's one way, I guess that's not really reclaiming. That's just me having an authentic response finally. But then I see the work you're doing and like, yeah, that word reclaiming just keeps coming back to me.

Like that's some really powerful stuff. And I wonder if you have some insight into like how that is a part of your story.

Grace: Well, I think to your point, it's definitely somehow related to having access to mine things through with my parents, like the people who created the environment by which I was produced. So that has really given me a lot of [00:21:00] power and I think it's allowed me to consider things in a way that feels safe.

It's allowed me to air certain grievances without feeling badly. Like my parents have never felt like, oh, I'm being attacked or anything. Like, we've had very difficult conversations and we don't- and we will kind of like disagree on certain point by point, but as long as our, our root, like the core foundation is like we want to love you tell us how we can be doing that, um, I think has really allowed me to, it's a bit of a shield in some ways to go back into the more difficult parts of my childhood that my parents maybe weren't there for. Um, you know, for example, like going back to different youthgroup experiences that they dropped me off.

It's not their fault, like they weren't [00:22:00] teaching the thing, but like being able to process this stuff with the only other people that were like there at the time, um, is really empowering. And it just gives me that sort of resolve that it's okay. Like these difficult feelings are okay because there's no one in my life, um, that, and it would've, it would be my parents if it were to be anyone, that that is saying like, oh, come on.

Like, give it up, get over it. Like that's not happening. And so it allows me to reckon with those, those memories, to reckon with those parts of myself. And the consequence of that is, it's so freeing for me as a songwriter, which is my mode of expression that, okay, I can talk about this, I can air this out.

You know, I can talk about my parents in, in music and, uh, I'm not worried about hurting someone's feelings cuz it's not about, it's not about hurting someone's feelings. It's about, I think just accountability and looking at things honestly. [00:23:00] Um, and I also have amazed, like funny, silly bonding memories with some of my best friends from youth group.

All these things can be true. All of it can be true. But I think having that permission from the people who brought me into the world, even though they're not- it's not something that at this point we talk about super frequently, but it does come up like given certain things. And certainly when “Preacher’s Kid” came out, we had a lot of conversations.

DL: Hmm mm-hmm.

Grace: I think it just allows me a sense of freedom. Like freedom to just be who I am, express how I feel, and not, uh, omit parts of my story or repress parts of my story. Cuz repression for me, I associate of course with the closet and it was just the sickest. And most damaging I've ever been. So anytime I sense that I, I really, like, I am thinking of, I'm watching “The Last of Us” right now, think of it as like a zombie, like coming for me, and I'm like, no. Like, no repression. Like I [00:24:00] can't do it.

Krispin: Mm-hmm.

DL: Hmm. Yeah. Can I say something really quick? So this song that we're talking about that we don't really wanna talk about, right. The DC Talk song about this like forced intimacy of confession, like I,you know, I wasn't able to go to your concert, but Krispin said like, there's just this amazing communal spirit and like catharsis and like community building in a really different way that also has elements of vulnerability, but without the exploitation.

And I just think that's so beautiful and I wondered if you wanted to say anything about that.

Krispin: Well, I think, yeah, I, well for one, I just wanna like mention, thinking about this “Between You and Me” song, right? And thinking about like spaces where you are expected to confess. Um, and like there's this power differential of like, church leaders are like, you have to be honest with us about every single piece of your life in according to like our judgment.

Um, and so I think that is just like really worth mentioning. Like before we move on from the song, like I think this is the way [00:25:00] at least for us growing up in Evangelicalism, right?

DL: Like.

Krispin: Um, just really, really, if, like you said, it's compulsive, it's not, it's like exploitative. It's not like, Hey, I get to like, share what's going on deep inside of me.

It's like you have to tell us what’s going on deep inside of you.

DL: Also, there's this element within evangelicalism where your thoughts are not your own, right. You never get to have your own thoughts, like God knows them and the community should know them. And only now, right? I'm 38 years old. I'm like, no, my thoughts are mine.

Like, yeah, nobody else gets them, like they're mine. And so I'm, I'm learning a lot of this stuff myself.

Grace: That was a tricky one for me as well. I don't know when that was, how that kind of seeped in. Cuz it is pretty young when you start being like, God can hear my thoughts and then feeling so bad for every thought. Um, and just feel- it's a really complicated thing to [00:26:00] work through. I think… I think I'm getting towards where you are, but it really is kind of a journey to feel like there's any sense of privacy within your own mind, and that is- the concept of privacy in the first place is so important for a child to understand, like privacy and consent, like those are really boundaries, like all that stuff.

And so I think that in the way that God is introduced as like this, can be like very invasive. And then I also think that because it's introduced through like a patriarchal lens, that then the church leaders become surrogates for that type of, um, like intimacy that is not warranted, but it's just sort of, um, decided based on power structures.

And I think that is like really, it's a lot to put on a kid and to yeah, just as you were saying, it's something that you will be processing for the rest of your life. And our thoughts are our own.

DL: They are. They really are. They really [00:27:00]

Krispin: Yeah. But yeah, thinking about this song “Between You and Me,” um, like I think I agree with you. Or like, I resonate with that idea of like, honesty being important or like reconciliation. Like I think there's some really positive themes in this song, but it did also make me think about how like relationships and power dynamics in the church can be really toxic, which then reminded me of your song “Wanna Grab Coffee?”. Um, and so for those that are listening that aren't familiar, um, you are, uh, writing from the perspective of someone else, right? Someone who's maybe more like conservative or fundamentalist who feels like, I need to take this person out to coffee to tell them the hard truth. [clip from “Wanna Grab Coffee?”] [00:28:00] Am I getting that right?

Grace: Completely, it's something that I do a lot in my songwriting. When I'm working through something that's very challenging with a person, I often try and write from their perspective to try and see if I can make heads or tails of what's occurring maybe from how they see it. And this one-

Krispin: Did that happen when you wrote this song?

Grace: Well actually, so this song was inspired by, I'm not gonna go into the details of it cause I don't wanna give them the airtime, but it's actually by like conservative Christian, um, YouTuber type people. And they had a [00:29:00] video where they were talking about, I don't know why it like came up and sometimes, you know how you click on things and you're like, why did I click on this? Like, this's gonna put me in a bad mood. But somehow I did.

And it was something about, um, God is loving but he's not accepting. Like that was like their take.

DL: Mm.

Grace: And I just thought that it was- or like, Jesus like was loving, but he was like not an accepting person. And that he was like actually like really judgmental was literally the take. And I was, I mean, my jaw was on the floor.

I was like, you can't make this thing up. Like this is so ridiculous. And um, and it was, and it made me sad. It made me sad that, like, that is your view of like an all loving, omniscient creator that you've pledged not only like your life, but also like your public life, like publicly. Um, and then it got me to thinking about the, I've never really gone to coffee, so that's not true.

I've never gone, but I've certainly received the invitation. I just have, uh, not followed [00:30:00]through on it. And so this was me because of watching that video. Just imagining like, how would that conversation go about, you know, God loves you, but he doesn't like you.

Krispin: Mm-hmm.

Grace: And you've got some notes on your behavior. And that is where “Wanna Grab Coffee?” came from.

Krispin: Mm. Yeah. And what was so powerful to me, um, at, at your show was like, you, I just loved, like, you, like did this, you know, kind of playing out like, I'm this person. Right. You explained it beforehand and like, you sort of like fake broke down into tears about like how hard it is to tell you this hard truth that like, you're going to hell, or like how hard it, you said, this is so hard for me to tell you that God hates you basically. Right?

Grace: That part is true. That has happened to me, um, that- it has happened. It's so frustrating. It's also, I'm a very, um, I. Obviously [00:31:00] I'm a songwriter. I'm very sensitive and so I had a conversation with someone I love very dearly and we were both just crying and it was- the reason why was because she was having to tell me this awful truth.

It's not true, but to her, like this awful truth.

Krispin: Mm-hmm.

Grace: And yeah, just seeing her like crying and she was like, this is so hard. Like, you know, I've been dreading this, like it's so, so hard. And I just, in the moment, I was so overwhelmed with emotion. But then when you look back on it, you get, you start to process like what was, it was hard for you?

Like what?

DL: Mm-hmm.

Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that was like what I found so powerful cuz like could just tell the room, like within the room everybody was just like, yes. Like we have been here. Like we've been-

DL: We’ve had this experience. We've had people tell us this is the loving thing to do. Yeah.

Krispin: Mm-hmm.

Grace: It's reinforced, I think by a lot of Christian communities that like, by adhering to your faith [00:32:00] in the way that we are interpreting scripture, which is homophobic and exclusionary, you are going to feel like a martyr. You're gonna feel- you're, you're the victim, you know, you, the world is just not gonna understand you and you're gonna have this heartbreak, um, again, based on their very rigid and, I think incorrect interpretation of scripture on the six clobber passages.

And so in a weird way, unfortunately, I think the fact that the person specifically who is crying and in that song like the- when people have gone through that where someone is so sad to be hurting someone in this way, I think it actually reinforces the teaching that they have subscribed to, which is that you will, it will be very difficult to follow Christ. Like, look at this. Isn't this so difficult? Um, and then I think also it will [00:33:00] reinforce a very conditional love that is prescribed in those communities.

DL: Yeah.

Grace: Because I think that's what made me really sad about some people, and I think this person especially is, I remember telling her, I was like, cuz she was like, I love you so much. Like I love you. And I was like, if someone is telling you that this is what love feels like, if someone is telling you that this is how you can experience love, I'm so sad for you and you deserve a lot better.

Like this sucks for me, but I didn't just wake up and be gay today. So I'm not- nothing that you're saying is especially shocking or revelatory to me. However, what's revelatory to me is that you're kind of telling me how your community is representing love to you, and that actually makes me very worried. Because you deserve a community and people and a faith that is loving unconditionally and that- [00:34:00] I think there's just a lot that I'm mulling over more on this in the new music to come!

DL: I'm so excited because, you know, again, looking into thought reform, brainwashing, high control religions, right? That is the intent. The intent is to have people so disconnected from their actual body, their actual wants and desires, this desire to love people, right? And it gets twisted into this thing where it's like, well, I have to do this in order to get God's love and the love of my community.

You know, I was born into it. I'm also a preacher's kid. Very different from you. Um, and now, you know, this year alone, I've been like, I was indoctrinated, like into a high control religion that I had no autonomy, no choice over, and I struggled so much with um, my wants and desires, you know, coming into conflict with what I was being raised to believe, which was just basically to prime myself to follow authoritarian rule.

You know, that's literally what White Evangelicalism is designed to do. And so like, for me, it is so sad, and I think that [00:35:00] this album, DC Talk’s Jesus Freak in particular is such an interesting look at brainwashing, to be perfectly honest. For susceptible youth in a high control environment who have very limited access to things like, the song, “Jesus Freak” is all about that.

Right? The world's gonna hate you. Like nobody's gonna understand you like, cuz you're a freak for Jesus. So like, setting up to us versus them, they didn't mean like freak in any cool way. Like, anyway, I'd like to be a freak now.

Krispin: Can we mention just real quick-

DL: Yes. I know you, I know you wanna bring this up

Krispin: There are this book series.

There's this book series that went with it, and Rebecca St. James wrote one of the books called Sister Freaks.

Grace: Oh, the Martyr book?

Krispin: Mm-hmm.

DL: But Rebecca St. James wrote a female version called Sister Freaks. I mean, she wrote the intro, but all the, all the stories are about women, you know, whatever. It's wild.

Grace: I’m sorry, I have to look this up. Sister Freaks?

DL: I have a copy of it. I could send it to you because I don't want it in my house anymore. [00:36:00]Yes.

Grace: Does anyone know like what Rebecca St. James is up to? This came up at a show recently because I just all, I'm such a chatty Kathy on stage.

DL: Let's all say right now before you look, before you Google. Yeah. I say she is still 100% all-in on Evangelical Christianity. That's what I say. What do you think, Krispin?

Krispin: I say that she's done a cruise in the last five years.

DL: She's led a CCM cruise. Okay. She's been on. What do you think?

Grace: Well, I agree with you. I think she's all in. Um, she may have relaxed the purity messaging a little bit now that she's married. Um, and I don't know if she's still making music though, but I mean, again, l just like Cindy Morgan, we hope she's well. Like I don't have any ill-will.

DL: Do we though? I need her to make a public apology for this martyr propaganda book that she wrote specifically for women who already are disadvantaged in the patriarchal system of Christianity, telling them [00:37:00] you must go to another country and be willing to be killed for your faith. I'm sorry. It is some batshit crazy martyrdom fantasy and like when you grow up in it, right? You're like, I'm just a frog boiling at a teapot. And now that I'm like out of the kettle, I'm just like, Rebecca St. James, go on an apology tour right now. Like, do it.

Grace: I thought that Jesus Freak the book, it was probably one of my favorite books, I read it cover to cover, dogeared. I read all of it. I had, and this is like kind of fucked up, like I had favorite, everyone dies in that book. It's a book of death. I had favorite stories-

DL: Yes! Me too.

Grace: -from that. I have a vivid memory of a vestry of a dinner with some of some of the higher up members of the vestry with like my family.

And I probably was in, you know, that's cusp-y time, like 15, 16 years old, something like that. Um, cuz my brother hadn't, my brother's three years older than me and he was with us at the table, so I can't have been too old. Um, [00:38:00] and, I can't remember like what the conversation turned to, but I think, I thought I was like saying something really normal, but I was like, oh, like I have dreams of my funeral all the time.

And it got really quiet at the dinner. And again, like, these are like, like high up like church board members. And I just remember my mom being like, Gracie, I didn't know that. And I was like, yeah. I was like, oh, do we not all do that?

DL: Do we not all do that?

Grace: Are we not all- that not something that we're all thinking about?

DL: No. Wow. I did too, but mine were very like a big deal. Cause I was martyred for Jesus, so I was really, I got a-

Grace: -like, wow. Like what a good person

Krispin: Mm-hmm.

DL: Yeah. Joan of Arc was like my girl. You know, all these things and you're like, again, this happen- so. DC Talk’s Jesus Freak came out in 1995, the book Jesus Freak came out in 1999.

And it's just a fascinating look at White Evangelism and publishing in general. Just kind of coming into this fever pitch of trying to create these [00:39:00] radicalized youth, right, who would give anything to the cause. And we see that playing out like in politics, you know, a few decades later, just people who are like, this is my identity.

The world will be against me. I will give it all. And I'm just like, man, what a wild time to be a teen. Honestly, in white Christian culture, that has some American roots. I was like that was propaganda station, man. All this stuff really. It really truly was.

Grace: And they were able to control the narrative so efficiently because again, you're getting things pumped in through like CCM boxes. Like the internet was really in like its infancy. So these days I have a lot of hope for younger generations because you're able to access that if you can just get an internet connection, like you can get that pluralism of ideas and theory and uh, you can be exposed to, you know, affirming theology, um, from really- not that, again, it's one of those things where I'm so done proof texting my life, but I [00:40:00] remember it was actually very helpful to listen to scholars, biblical scholars go point by point on the clobber verses, it's not something that I'm super interested in doing with people now, but that, that access to information, I didn't have it until I was like in my twenties and it gives me a lot of hope that kids that are like 13 or 14, might be able to find, um, like a TikTok video just explaining like, Hey, was Leviticus thrown at you today? Well, let me help you out. Like, that's like, that's huge, huge, huge for just feeling like you're not fraudulent as a person that there's nothing-

I still, unfortunately, and I was just talking to my mom about this because I as a 30 something, like I need so much reassurance from my parents. Sometimes when I can get in my head that I think is a little bit inordinate and it's because I do think I have this neuro pathway that was created in an early age that I always think that there's something wrong with me.

Like that there is, that I was made [00:41:00] wrong, like I'm wrong for who I am and that there- Yeah. And it, and it sucks because I know that to not be true, but the 12-year-old that is still, you know, so present with me still has that feeling of like, there's something wrong with me. Like, oh no, why can't I be like everyone else?

Does everyone wish I was something different? Does everyone wish that I was different than how I am?

Krispin: And like I, I mean, I'm someone that really loves like lyrical analysis and even like thinking about like Relient K or Switchfoot or whoever, there's this message of like, there's something really broken about you and you're loved anyway. That, like,

DL: That seemed so nice back then.

Krispin: Yeah, seems like a powerful, loving message.

But because that idea of like you are broken, gets nestled in with you are loved, like what's a

DL: Well it’s a fundamental part of it. As we now know, and so I'd be curious like if other people do this, but sometimes I'm like, I wonder what it would be like to access that tween, [00:42:00] that 12-year-old part of us that's like, I, I do think something's really wrong with me. And just listen to like the entire DC Talk Jesus Freak album with that 12-year-old in mind.

And it's like you're gonna find a lot of shit in there that will make you feel like I have to give every thought, I have to give every element of my life to God in order to ever be even the tiniest bit okay.That's how I live my life. And I'm just like, it's such a freaking bummer. And I know it didn't impact everybody as much as it impacted me, but you know, even if it impacts a few people like that, it's worth, you know, talking about publicly and trying to do something better with our own kids.

Sorry, we just got, I just got really passionate there, but I'm like, there's a reason like we have these messages like cuz we imbibe, you know, we imbibed them over and over and over again. Even though again, like maybe your friend who was crying, it's like we kept being told we had access to this unconditional love and it wasn't true.

And a part of us always knew that. So we said, oh [00:43:00] then I guess something's wrong with me cuz I'm not experiencing it as unconditional at all. It actually seems very conditional now. I like being honest, being like, oh, it was really fucking conditional. Like there's the, there's the problem right there. It's not me.

Krispin: Yeah. And I was thinking about like, going back to the, the song that you wrote, um, about this person that comes to you and is like, I have this, you know, news for you and it's cuz I love you, but it's hard.

And like, as a therapist, knowing a bit about like family systems. There's this idea of like a narcissistic family system where you have like a narcissistic parent, um, that's like really toxic and like maybe scapegoating someone and saying like they're the problem. Um, and then you have this, there's this term flying monkeys that came to mind as we were like talking about this, where the flying monkeys are like, you know, it's referring to the Wizard of Oz where you have the witch and you have the flying monkeys that go out and sort of do her bidding.

And so it's this thing of like, this happens in [00:44:00] families where it's like this person maybe is well-meaning, but they, and because they're part of the system, they go and they're like, Hey, like, you know, in, in dysfunctional family systems it might be like this toxic person is like telling stories about you and then they're like, Hey, I want to help you reconcile with this person.

They said that you know, X, Y, and Z and I wanted to just like check in on you cuz I care about you and see if we can, you know, work this out or whatever. Um, and I was like, that just fits so much with like religious communities, right? Is like the person, the flying monkey, quote unquote, is like, it's because they care about you, but they're stuck in this really shitty system.

Yeah.

Grace: Yeah, and, and, and like it's this, this misplaced care. And I do think it is rooted in, because you know, the fact of the matter is that being alive and being a person in the world and humanity is a really confusing thing. It's really confusing and it's beautiful and it's [00:45:00] wonderful, but it's really painful and there is heartbreak that it's just baked into what it is to be a human.

So I try to hold compassion while also holding boundaries with certain people who subscribe to this type of belief system because I understand that the reason why they are effectively doing, like being kind of a flying monkey is because they are so entrenched in the system and they got entrenched in that system, one, without- not by choice because they grew up in it. And the reason why they have doubled down is because at least in the case of the, the people I know kind of got a peek at the world,were scared shitless and I understand why. Had some rough experiences and are now like, I'm just gonna stay with the, I, this is a poetic way of using this, but like with the devil I know, which is this type of a world, I'm gonna stay [00:46:00] here.

DL: Yeah.

Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Grace: And I understand that like you're, it's, it's a lot of fear. And I'm not saying that I live a life devoid of fear. You just have to, you know, there is a choice though. That, that's the thing that I think sucks for me is like, it's not as though there's one Christian perspective on inclusion. It really isn't.

That's, that's something that I take a lot of heart in is that people will say, um, Oh, well, it's just my beliefs. My beliefs or whatever, and I'm like, what about my, my dad's beliefs? Like you wanna talk about someone who has like deeply held beliefs like, just that there's so many interpretations on the same faith and there's a, there is, there are interpretations that bring people in that hold community and you're choosing to ignore those interpretations.

[00:47:00] And most of the time what I find is that they've never tried to even learn about them. They've never tried to learn about affirming theology. And that's, and that's just one issue that obviously, um, impacts my life. But we could go down the line of sort of like white supremacist, evangelical type of teachings that people you are choosing, you are making a choice in your theology because you don't, no one's asking you to make a choice in your faith if your faith is important to you.

I understand that, you know? Um, But you are choosing an exclusionary harmful theology over any even degree of curiosity. At least in my experience. Usually it's people- I'm like, have you ever heard a queer affirming sermon? One? Just one. I've heard countless anti-gay sermons. Have you heard one affirming sermon just to see?

Krispin: Mm-hmm.

Grace: Like if it's so wrong, like what are you scared of?[00:48:00]

Krispin: Mm-hmm.

Grace: Why are you so scared to love people that are different from you?

DL: I think for me, just coming to terms with this, so like you're in the music world, right? And you're reclaiming some of this and you have some awesome, I don't know, can I call it public trolling? Like I just feel like you like to cyber bully some Christian artists who have been kind of skating by on like not making it clear.

Grace: It’s not cyber bullying!

DL: I'm sorry, that's my term, not-

Grace: I would say it's cyber... It's cyber fun.

DL: Cyber fun. Listen, I love cyber bullying, so I do that all the time with like me and me and Sean Foyt, like have this like huge beef. Okay? And yes.

Grace: No! Is that the guy with the curly hair? The long,

DL: Um, I'm obsessed with like, researching the Jesus movement and actually how like really bad it is and that's a whole nother conversation that we can maybe have at another time.

But I'm like, I see you doing that. I [00:49:00] was in Christian publishing for forever and, and I think there's this unique tension that comes from being like, there's goodhearted people trapped in these systems that were designed to perpetuate this self-sustaining closed model, right? Where you only listen to Christian music, you only listen to these white pastors.

So yeah, you never do get access to these outside perspectives and like here you are just like elbows flying, you know, being like, I'm gonna go to the, I wanna go to the Dove Awards. Like, I just think it's so cool and we need all different sorts of tactics and responses to this, to just loving people who are totally trapped in this closed circuit system, you know?

And so I just think what you're doing is awesome and I just, I love the creativity. I love that you're having fun. Um, I'm not really like a shows person, but Krispin freaking loved it. And so I'm just like, just thank you for doing what you do and-

Grace: Thank you.

DL: -for having fun with it.

Grace: Yeah. I mean I [00:50:00] sometimes, uh, you know, humor is such a coping mechanism. It absolutely is. And like the funniest people I know, especially from in and out of Christian spaces are people who have like some of the more like harrowing experiences.

DL: It's all trauma. Yes.

Grace: Yeah, it is, it really, it really is. And. I think like there are things like that that remind me of like the, the beauty of the world, like the resilience of the human spirit.

And that is something that really encourages me, that I take a lot of hope and heart in moving forward. That, you know, a lot of this shit will get you down and it sucks and it's really sad. But moreover, I have laughed more since dealing with this head on, you know, since kind of confronting all of this.

There is so much, there is just a lot of love just out there waiting for you, like real love that is out there. I think that sometimes I would just feel so weird and lonely and [00:51:00] that this experience was so unique that, you know, it would be impossible to forge any sort of meaningful bonds. But the opposite is really true.

It just, it’s that those first steps are really into the unknown. It's really scary, but wherever you land, and I'm never gonna, you know, prescribe anything for anybody about where they go on their journey, spiritual or not. Just know that there is a lot of love when you invest in yourself, because I think that, I think that we're valuable.

I think every person is valuable and has value, but it's a matter of like really like looking inward and, and finding that and believing that. And it's hard because you're gonna have to go against a lot of the early neuro pathways that may have, may or may not have been created for you against your will without autonomy as a child.

But there's, there's just a lot of like, funny, weird, joyous, exuberant, loud moments on the other side. And I wouldn't have it any other way. I wouldn't, I wouldn't change [00:52:00] anything. I might have picked a different song for the talent show, to be honest. I think I could-

Krispin: No, but I. Yeah. And I like, again, I just, I've said it multiple times, but like, being at your show was so powerful, uh, because you just had this sense of like creating a space for people that- you're talking about Veggie Tales. Everybody was like right on track and like, showing up in this space to say like, yeah, this has been really hard for, I felt like I was like, I'm a straight man.

Uh, I am like in a room full of lesbians. I don't want to take up space here. Like, y'all like, process things, but it was so.

Grace: Y’all have fun.

Krispin: Yeah, but it was just so beautiful and so moving and like, brought me to tears just to see the space that you had created, um, and continue to create, um, just what you just said, right?

Like with jokes and like, there's this like being able to, [00:53:00] to own like this is- I don't know if own’s the right word, but like recognize like, this is what we've been through, this is where we've come from, and there's still a room for connection and love and, um, dancing and um, you know, celebration. So, if y'all are listening and Semler is coming through on tour, do not miss it.

Um, yeah, it's just been really, it was really amazing for me, and I know that that's what you, you know, creating the space, doing this music is what you're creating for folks. So.

Grace: Thank you. I love performing live. It's been a true joy the past two years. I hadn't really done live shows before that, and now I get to play with a full band, and that has been like, so much fun when we're able to do it. I love playing with my band and I think we like just put on a hell of a show. It's just so much fun.

Like the energy that's this wonderful release also does reinforce that you probably weren't feeling the Holy Spirit. You probably were just [00:54:00] experiencing live music.

DL: Yeah, it's some great, you know, chord progressions. Like and communal, the communal energy right. Is,

Grace: yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, it's scientific, like lean into the sonics of how we process sound waves. Like we, if a, if a band is doing what they're meant to be doing, like you should, you know, be feeling something out of body. Isn't that amazing that you can control that?

It's not like God coming like in on the keys, like, whoa.

DL: No, I think all the Hillsong people really have a direct connection to God. And so I think that's what's happening there. Um, anyhow,

Krispin: Instead of closing up, let's just talk about the Asbury revival.

DL: No, shh!

Grace: It's like a, you know, like the movie Space Jam, except it's just angels inhabiting the body of Hillsong performers, like whenever they play.

DL: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

Krispin: Well, thank you so much for taking some time to chat with us about DC Talk. [00:55:00]Um, it's been just really great. Uh, really appreciate your insight and just taking some time to reminisce a little bit about middle school.

Grace: Thank you so much for having me. This has really been a great treat. I never get asked to talk about these mortifying memories enough.

DL: “Between You and Me”? You've never been asked to like, come on and talk about that for an hour? That's wild to me.

Grace: Just hasn't come up, so it's, it's really been a true pleasure.