You Need Some Jesus in Your Life
Krispin and DL talk about "Like It, Love It, Need It," and what it was like growing up being told that Jesus is answer to all your life's problems.
We reference When God Talks Back by T.M. Luhrmann
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TRANSCRIPT
Krispin: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Prophetic Imagination Station Podcast, and we are talking about Jesus freak this season. Hopefully you already know that and have been following along, but today we are gonna talk about a song, one of those like flyover songs that we've been talking about called “Like It. Love it, Need it.”
Danielle: Yeah. It's funny, I, I wonder if people even know what this song is, right? maybe when they hear the beginning?
Krispin: they probably won't. This is sort of the same as the song that we talked about with Kevin Nye, where I feel like it’s not until it gets going.
Danielle: No, I, I think the beginning is iconic.
Krispin: Really?
Danielle: Okay. Can we like insert it right here? Yes. Okay.[00:01:00]
Krispin: Okay. Why do you think it's iconic?
Danielle: Dude, I love it. Okay, so I was, you know, very isolated kid and so that kind of sound at the beginning… I just thought it, I mean that's obviously trying to be grunge, right?
Krispin: Yeah. I mean, that's what I was gonna ask, like, who are they trying to be?
Danielle: I'm like, this is, this is the most I've ever enjoyed Toby Mac.
And then later in the song, he goes into trying to be a Beastie Boy, and it's terrible. But like here, it's like a chipper Kurt Cobain. Like I had no access to grunge music, so this was it. So my little ears just perked up when the beginning. I hated other parts, like honestly, when Michael Tate started and Kevin, I was like, no. I like this, like weird grunge.
And also the bass. Yes, the bass line in this song is good and
Krispin: Uhhuh,
Danielle: you know, precursor to me learning the bass. So I don't know, there's something about the sound. It was [00:02:00] very new.
Krispin: Yeah. Right. And it's funny cuz it's so not DC talk in terms of sort of where they've been.
Danielle: I'm like, isn't that funny? I'm like, I
Krispin: yeah, and I was trying to figure it out like, cuz in my mind when I hear, I hear They Might be Giants in the Malcolm in the Middle theme song. [singing:]“Yes. No, maybe” that same sort of like kind of voice.
Danielle: It's, it's a little nasally, a little whiny, a little like teenage rebellion. I don't know. I was like, they definitely got notes to try and, ride the Nirvana popularity wave.
Krispin: Yeah. I was like, I know. So very little about nineties rock. Um, so little. I was like, I know they're copying someone. I don't know who. So I asked on Twitter, uh, on our PIS Twitter account, uh, which y'all should follow.
Danielle: no. We're getting off Twitter
Krispin: Oh, I forgot. We were just talking about that.
Okay.
Danielle: Just kidding. If you're still on Twitter, you could follow us. But if you're not on Twitter like me, get out of there. find our Facebook group
Krispin: A substack versus Twitter war that DL was just telling me about. I wouldn't know very much about what is happening in the world If DL did not tell me.
Danielle: And I'm not even very aware these days, so that's scary.
Krispin: I woke up and spent a lot of my morning looking at research papers on high masking autistic folks. Um, cuz I'm doing a training, but that's also just like, that's where I go. I am not in the pop culture.
Danielle: that is why we're discussing an album that is how many years old?
Krispin: coming up on 20,
Danielle: No, 30 babe.
Krispin: Oh my
Krispin: Yes. Okay. Yes.
Danielle: By the way, this is really gonna confuse people, cuz up until this point in the season, we have literally not really discussed the songs in depth at all.
And today I'm like, I feel like that's all we're gonna do. Right? [00:04:00] Yeah. Okay.
Krispin: Before I do want to give, uh, uh, Tamara credit, hopefully I'm saying your name right.
Um,
They said, “I'm hearing strong super drag vibes with the little archers of loaf.”
I don't know who they're either, but that's why we need people like you to weigh in cuz we do not know. To me it's the most evangelistic song.Yes. The whole song is a musical version of a testimony.
Danielle: is it?
Krispin: I think it, you obviously don't think so. I don't know. But here's the thing is, I mean, you know, we think about like this is for a Billy Graham crusade and basically the whole format, we'll talk about each of these, but to give y'all a overview, it starts off with like, what's the problem?
Danielle: Yeah. Can I tell you the problem? “This is my generation, drowning in despair-o”
Krispin: I know. Where did the O come from?
Danielle: Because it has to rhyme.
Krispin: No. I guess you're right.
Danielle: This is my generation drowning in despair.
Krispin: right. I mean they could have just done a A, A, B, B rhyme scheme, but they chose A A, A A. Yes. Okay. Yeah.
Did they, I don't know. It forces them to tack an O on the end.
Danielle: No, that's grunge baby. That's grunge. add an O at the end of things. That's grunge baby.
Krispin: I really think that's what I'm saying. They were, yeah. Yeah.
Danielle: They're really the precursors of MXPX. I just didn't know it. Oh, really? Pop punk. Mm-hmm. Yeah,
Krispin: yeah, yeah.
Danielle: so that, so that's what Toby Mac is telling us, like our generation is drowning, despair. Like this is literally their response to the teenage angst song by Nirvana. Oh no, I'm really adding myself as, um, smells like Teen Spirit. There we go. Um, and then he says,
Krispin: “you'll never find peace of mind in your pool of self.”
Mm-hmm. “You'll never find peace of mind in your sea of wealth. You'll never find peace of mind in your rock and roll. You'll never find peace of mind if you sell your soul.”
Danielle: Right. So those are the things to avoid.
Krispin: Right, exactly. And that's where that like testimony thing to me sounds like, I can imagine someone getting up on stage and saying like, “I was in despair. I was in this hard place. I couldn't cope. And like I tried to turn to myself. I tried to like, you know, turn to wealth. I was in the rock and roll lifestyle, you know, that sort of thing.”
Danielle: And then they give us the solution. Okay.
Krispin: Okay. Right?
Danielle: I'm pretty sure I know what it is.
Krispin: Yeah. Spoiler alert. It's in one of the words in the album title.
Right? [00:07:00] Which is Jesus. So it says, uh, basically it says, you gotta like it, you gotta love it. I know you need some freedom from the strife.
Danielle: You need some Jesus in your life.
Krispin: So basically, yeah, problem is despair. Here are the things that don't work. Jesus works. Right. And so I wonder, like for you, when you hear, you just need Jesus, that's what I hear in this song, right?
How does that land with you?
Danielle: Yeah, I think that it's just really shitty when you actually are a person who experiences despair at the state of the world and what it's like to be a person.
And you know, this is a really common emotion for teenagers, right? Teenagers who are sort of waking up to the world and how it doesn't treat people well. It's racist, it's homophobic, it's, you know, capitalism is not helping it. Like I think despair and overwhelm is really a common response. Right. And so just to hear like, “all you need is Jesus.” Okay. I, I don't know, it makes me feel tired cuz I'm like, yeah, that's what I was literally told over and over again and no other thing was I ever told, except it's funny that they kind of talk about riches, like you can't find it in a sea of wealth. But it's like, what's funny is like, “you just need some, Jesus.” It's like, yeah. The hope is you would be also comfortably middle class. You would not be protesting things. You, you know. You know,
Krispin: know?
Mm-hmm.
Danielle: funny. Like you would listen to worship music. It's just funny, like all the other things that come with the, you just need Jesus. And then it kind of gets my brain whirring, like, what do they mean when they say Jesus? You know, what do they mean? Like, what does that mean?
Krispin: Yeah, I think to what? Like adhere to white middle class
Danielle: Yeah. Or Liberty. Yes. Liberty University, like it's Jerry Falwell.
Krispin: mm-hmm.
Danielle: That's the concept of Jesus they're talking
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
mm-hmm.
Danielle: And, and it's just really interesting to look back at my life growing up, completely ensconced in this world. Right? They don't ever get very part. About what that would look like. Mm-hmm. If you had Jesus in your life. And so you have to figure it out by context clues, right? Which is like your Christian parents, the books, they allow you to read the sermons at church, what they say in youth group, you know, and all of those messages together, you realize like, Yeah.
They have so little to do with the historical Jesus and everything to do with dominant culture, white, middle class, conservative Republican values. So that's, [00:10:00] you know what I would say now, that's the Jesus, they're saying a, a Jesus is, um, made up voice inside your head that matches to, uh, Jerry Falwell.
Krispin: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Danielle: That's what you need in your life.
Krispin: Right. That's the prescription. I, I think it's like, thinking about this really, um, made me, it was making me think a lot about what do I think brings people peace and like even for, I think years now, like even as a Christian counselor. I mean, I'm not a Christian counselor.
Let me rephrase that. As a Christian and a counselor, I am not a Christian counselor. I don't think like, oh, well if you just had Jesus in your life, then things would go better. You would feel about it, right? And this is sort of what this is promising. This is promising. If you have some Jesus in your life, then things will, you'll feel better.
That's [00:11:00] kind of the message. And so, um, it just really made me realize, like, it's been a very long time since I've ever thought like, you know, pray more or like, you know, I just, I don't think that Jesus intervened. I haven't for a long time thought that Jesus intervenes in that way. Like I think that like we have needs as humans that help us get healthier and feel better, you know, and it's interesting cuz it is Saturday between Good Friday and Easter. Mm-hmm. And even, I was looking at this poem I wrote three years ago for KJ Ramsey, my friend, for her pre-order. Um, and we were supposed to write, like, you know, we wrote poems. So I wrote this poem called A Flicker in the Night, which just basically was like, you know, people waited for a long time for Jesus to come, and then Jesus came and then died and then left. And it's, there's still just like so much [00:12:00] pain and suffering in the world, and I do not know what his death meant. And so it's just interesting, like this idea of like, you just need Jesus. I mean, it feels very like megachurch to me, right? Like, you know, are you, are you having these problems? Like, come on in, like you can get to know Jesus and things will get better.
But I just have been really like wrestling. I think for a long time, I mean, when I was 16, I read, uh, reaching for the Invisible God by Philip Yancey. Which I don't think every 16 year old does, but it, it, that signals to me that, like even at 16 I was like, I feels like there's something that's supposed to be happening here that's not happening.
Danielle: Yeah. I mean, I think this sets us up for that. And yet at the same time, I'm really feeling this tension as you're talking because I'm like, we can pick this apart and, you [00:13:00] know, we can go through the rest of the song too. Just again, DC talks saying these are the problems in society. Um, this is the problem with our generation.
This is where you're looking, you know, for your despair and strife and you just need Jesus. You know, but I'm. How is that any different from progressive churches that are like, all you need is the right concept of a liber God, and then you'll be happy and then you'll be at peace and then you know, like you just need liberation theology or just need the Episcopal church, or you know.
Think about the work you do. Right? You just need a secure attachment with God. It's just like, Uh, like it's, it's still fitting in this same pattern of here's what's wrong in the world, here's how you've tried to fix it. All you actually need is God. Mm-hmm. I mean, because this is about Jesus, but it's also about God, you know?
And, and I think that sometimes we just switch that out, right? So that's the tension I'm feeling. In this song, it's like, we can pick this apart all we want, but I'm like, [00:14:00] to me, it's the language I hear from pro progressive Christians. Right. Exactly the
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, and I totally agree. And that's kind of like even what I was thinking about is when, yeah, like I said, I've had this tension my whole life.
I wrote this book saying like, here's how you can have a secure attachment with God.
I, I think looking back on it, um, I was like, I was just thinking about this like I wrote in my book about having this experience with God, where it felt like God showed up and it was like God said, like, I'm your mother.
Like you can, um, basically you can share whatever emotions. You can be a wreck, you can be okay. And, um, if I'm being really honest right now, I'm like, I don't think that you need God to have an experience of healing like that. I think that we all need, like whether it's within ourselves, whether it's a significant relationship, um, I think it was important [00:15:00] to me because of.
Being a Christian because that was my religious like upbringing in my worldview, and like I needed permission from God and I needed care from God to say like, you're okay, but I don't think that. It was God specifically that made it better. It was more like kind of fixing my view of God, like this thing that had been a burden.
So I don't know. That's just like kind of where I'm at right now, if I'm really honest with y'all listeners,
Danielle: Yeah, but to me it's, to me, I still hear some echoes of like, you gotta like it, you gotta love it. Like, you gotta know that God actually is a good attached parent. You know? I'm just like, no, I don't. Uhhuh like, no, I don't like, maybe that is great for some people, but that is really not great. For everybody, right? And possibly not most people. And so that's where I'm just like, oh, I just still hear some of that stuff.
Like if you just had the right concept of [00:16:00] God. Then all this will be better. And you know, again, I'm like, I know that works for some people, but I just wanna be the voice out there for other people to be like, Nope. Like that's actually not what we need. And you know, that stuff still can really, um, be at odds with what, what they in this song call your pool of self.
You know, like self trusts, like self trusts, like God and Jesus. This, this concept. Of, of another voice inside our head that we listen to can, can be so detrimental for self trust, you know? And that's kinda what this song is, continues to say. And, and it's funny because it also like just reading some of the lyrics through the lens of like social upheaval and like young people, young people of color being involved in resisting change.
Like I'm thinking about what happened in Tennessee. With these two amazing, you know, black legislators, [00:17:00] young men, you know, being expelled from the legislator because they stood up with their constituents. Constituents to say, we don't want gun violence to rule our lives anymore. Right. And so just to see these phrases like “he who complains the loudest, wears the fattest crown.”
You know, “we're anti everybody. Like we're, everybody's so paranoid.” I'm like,
Krispin: that is straight outta Liberty
Danielle: Right? So it's just like, then you get to say like, yeah, everybody who's complaining too much about this world, like, wow, you're going about it the wrong way. You just need Jesus. I'm like, so Jesus in this song is a silencing tactic.
Mm-hmm. Like if I could, you know, put it down to one sentence, it's that it's a silencing tactic for young people who have despair. Like are complaining about social problems.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Right. And as you're talking, I'm like, this sounds [00:18:00] like someone who, with a clarity of someone who's read quite a bit of, uh, Dr.
Dobson, right. Because it's that same
Danielle: Oh,
I know he talked about this. This is like, this is like
Krispin: this is the cool version of Dr. Dobson.
Danielle: Now this is like literally how he starts. Every one of his parenting books is like the, the young people. This day and age, like they just complain and they are protesting and changing the social order.
Like what we really need is to get back to, you know Jesus.
Krispin: mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.
Danielle: Yeah. And then, uh, so then the second thing they say, you can't find a peace of minded. Do you wanna talk about it?
Krispin: it? Oh, Well, just
a minute cuz we, we gotta not miss this last line. Oh, well I ain't no judge or journey jury, but I'm praying for you.
Is the line in the song
Danielle: after it says he who complains the lattice swears the fattest crown. We we're anti, everybody call it paranoia. So that's still [00:19:00] talking about Our, the young folks. Yes. Mm-hmm. Then he says, well, I ain't no judge or jury, but I'm praying for you. Oh, wow. Passive aggressive.
Krispin: Right. One of the most, one of the most passive
Danielle: also, you are so judgmental. This entire song is so judgmental, like, So Christian to be like, I'm no judgment, Jerry. I'm praying for you. I'm like, that is literally the most judgmental thing you
Krispin: I know, I'm like reading this. I can't believe that they put it in a song. I mean, I
Danielle: I can't. Huh? I mean, how many times have you experienced that in your actual life? Do you think evangelical Christians are really harsh and judgmental of other people?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. And if you just say like, I'm praying for you that that is very judgment, judgmental,
Danielle: what would you. Like if somebody said they were praying for you like that right now, how would you?
Krispin: [whispered] Fuck you.
Danielle: No you wouldn't. No, I wouldn't. You would never. You even had to whisper it just now. You would never. But is that how you feel? Is that how you feel?
Krispin: Yes. That's how I feelinside. I know.
Danielle: I'm sure that'll shock the listeners. Yes. If you don't bleep that out. I forgot that I'm not supposed to say that word. People have been commenting in the last episode. They like, wow. You know? Anyways….
Krispin: uh, I mean, remember when we went to the Sean Feaucht protest in 2020 and people were trying to pray for me and I said it was spiritual abuse.
Danielle: I can I share something? I saw TikTok from this account called the feral pastor's wife, and she had this great response. Like if somebody says, I'm praying for you, you can say, um, I appreciate what that means to.
Sort of passive aggressive uhhuh, but it doesn't have to be taken that way, Uhhuh. And you could acknowledge like, okay, that's your deal. And that is not actually helpful to me, but I understand how important that is to you. So I was like, oh, I like the layers to that response. Just if people need, need something.
Krispin: I feel like we don't have that doesn't happen very much in our life,
Danielle: Well, it does. Well, it did to me until I told people to stop talking to me about God, explicitly setting some boundaries.
But yeah, so you'll never find your peace of mind in
Krispin: your lucky charm. What’s that mean?
Krispin: I don't know, was this a nineties thing?
Danielle: No. You'll never find your peace of mind
Krispin: on a hippie farm
Danielle: You'll never find peace of mind
Krispin: in a one night stand.
Danielle: this is the most important one. You'll never find peace of
Krispin: In your Superman
Danielle: in Marvel movies! Like this song was prophetic and it was like basically the MCU is gonna take over all media and all movies and we'll never just get like really nice mid-budget romantic comedies ever yet. So you'll never be happy. Like you'll never be happy ever again because the MCU will poach up every good actor and every screen director and. Yeah. So that's, that's what I
Krispin: oh, I see. Yeah. I mean, this is, this again, [00:22:00] feels like that testimony piece to me. You know, like I was on a hippie farm. I was trying to fi, you know, find a peace of mind, but it wasn't until I found Jesus that I, you know, um, Yeah. And it comes right back to Jesus. I, I just am realizing that I have spent my whole life trying to figure out like, how do I feel better about myself?
Mm-hmm. You know, like, how do I have that peace of mind? How do I feel secure? And um, and a big piece of that actually was. Christianity for me, like there was always this question of like, are you really okay? Like I was listening to these um, Billy Graham sermons the other day cuz I was doing research for something I was writing and he's just always like, “are you sure you're saved? Are you sure you've repented?”
Danielle: Yeah. Everybody thinks he's so great. He like, he
Krispin: feeds the OCD.
Danielle: Yes,
Krispin: He does. And so when I think about my book, if it's okay for me to like talk about this for a minute, yeah. Just like talk about in writing my book, I think what I was doing was I was trying to help my OCD I was trying to like the, and let me just be clear, if you're maybe not tracking. For me, and I think for a lot of us, there's that thing in the back of your mind all the time. Like, am I okay? Am I doing it right? Am I close to God? Um, you know, for me it was a lot of hell anxiety. Like, what if I'm slipping away? What if God is disappointed in me? Like all so much of the time I would sort of check in to be like, am I okay with God?
And what I would hear back was like, well what about this? What about this? What about this? And so I think for me, When I wrote my book and did all that research, it was to help reassure myself that God is not [00:24:00] disappointed in, in me. So I didn't have to keep going back to that thought loop. But I don't think that me, I, I'm not saying, oh, this is something amazing that is for everyone.
Um, and I, I don't think. Was like really good news.
Danielle: Well, I also think like the big difference between you and DC talk is that you do think people can find healing outside of Christianity.
Mm. And I think that's just the crucial difference If you believe that. There's multiple ways that people can build that self trust and have positive self regard. Like it's obvious that religion has done that for so many people and including Christianity. So I'm not discounting all of that. It's just so hard to talk about this within the evangelical framework because that. You know this song is a distillation of the evangelical framework. Like can we talk about his Toby Mac's terrible rap?
Krispin: Yes.
Danielle: And like, it doesn't make any sense really at the beginning, but he says like, and while you're whining all the time, never changing any minds, it is clear to see your lip has lost its button. I don't know what that mean…
Krispin: I was trying to figure it out. It's a military term or like in the military they'll say, button your lip
Danielle: Oh,
Krispin: shut up. So you aren't shutting…
Danielle: You aren't shutting up.
Krispin: I had to think about that for a minute
Danielle: if you take a think at this, then it's easy to admit that the selfish way you're living is for nothing. So that, so to me, that's the distillation of evangelical theology, right? You guys are just complaining all the time. You need to shut up.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And That all these things that aren't Christianity like, that literally means your life is worth nothing.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And it'll never help you. I mean, that is so the, the message I got growing up. And I guess I believed it, you know? Cause I didn't really seek outside of that.
Krispin: Right. And it really doesn't give any space to be like, all right, like, this thing that I'm feeling, or [00:26:00] this thing I'm struggling with, or this like anxiety maybe is due to something else other than not having enough. Jesus.
Danielle: Yeah. So I think that's, you know, the way I, the way I conceptualize it is just like a supremacist or total list ideology. And that's not something you have, and that's why I'm like, your book is really valuable and like people doing this work without a supremacist or totalist mindset, like DC talk ad.
Like, we have to make space for that too. Right? We have to make space for religious practices. Um, that actually can be one part, right? Of dealing with despair in a crumbling society. Like, so I, yeah, I'm like, I'm not discounting religion or, or Christianity at all, but man, this how I think Christian publishing is sort of centered?
Krispin: Yes,
Danielle: they don't want you reading other books. They don't want you going to therapy, they want you buying Christian therapy books. You know, like [00:27:00]
Krispin: Which I think is like, just something huge that I'm wrestling with is like, if you are within that space -- if me being in that space, like what message am I sending and what do I believe? So, but I think what you said is right, like. I do think that if, um, if people, if, if Christianity is helpful to people, like, I think that's great. And I also think like if you're a person that's like, I want to believe better things about God, like that's great.
Um, but I think also that it's important to say like, and also you can just, like, you don't have to fix that. Like you can walk away and figure out other ways to take care of yourself, other resources, I think.
Danielle: Yeah. And it's interesting, like, did you. Any of your book in second person?
Krispin: Uh, not
Danielle: good
because not like it's bad to do that, but it's interesting that this song is in second [00:28:00] person. Right. And it's also interesting to think like they weren't actually reaching a white audience.
They were singing this to Christian kids like me. Right. And they're saying you'll never find peace of mind in a pool of self like, You gotta like it, you gotta love it. I know you need it.
Krispin: It's funny cuz I, my editor made me write it in second person, so I said strange.
I said, not really, but in a sense of like, um, rather than saying like, um, you know, some of us have felt anxious about God her whole lives saying like, you've felt anxious about God your whole life. So in more of a validating.
Like
I know that they're so, but um, yeah. And you mentioned the, like baseline towards the end, right?
Where, and then they start chanting like it, love it. Need it. [00:29:00] Which feels so like, I, I, you know, I think they're just doing something musical there trying to be cool, but it feels brainwashy
Danielle: too. Well it is, If it feels brainwashy
Krispin: Like what? When you hear like,
Danielle: well,
Krispin: I was trying to figure this out. It says you have to like it. Yeah, you have to. I mean, you know, you gotta like it.
You gotta love it
Danielle: and I know you need it.
Krispin: Uhhuh, what does that mean? Are they telling people you have to feel this way about it? That's what I assume.
Danielle: Yeah. I mean, to me, this is just one small piece of like a brainwash. Thing, which is like, you know, we were in a closed circuit. We only, we've talked about this a lot, but Right.
If you only get Christian music, if you only read Christian books, if you only go to Christian school or have Christian textbooks and have Christian parents and have youth group friends, [00:30:00] it's like, yeah, this message is like bombarded into you like nothing else the world has to offer is important. All you need is Jesus.
All you need is Jesus. And just, it sounds so good on the outset, but then you.
That has
really dire meanings actually, for what that means. Cuz really it's just saying don't look anywhere else, uh, for anything. really bad.
Krispin: and it really, for me, brings up this question that I think is just like a good question. What is unique about Christianity that can't be found elsewhere?
They're
saying there's something unique about it.
I think for me, like that's been a question that I've been like wrestling with and maybe other people are in that same, which doesn't mean that you can't choose or like that you don't choose Christianity, but I think that's like, that's something I've wrestled with for I think a long time, because otherwise it's like, well,
if There's something so [00:31:00] uniquely amazing about Christianity, but you only have access to it if you are born in certain Western countries, you know, or like, you know, certain countries in Africa as well. Yeah. Like that just brings up a huge question. And do I believe that, um, there are people that have no access to Christianity that, um, they can live healthy, fulfilling lives.
DC talk would say no.
Danielle: Yeah. I mean, in, in the, in light of this entire album,
which is
literally call Jesus Freak this song, you know, mentions the name Jesus over and over again, talks about how we absolutely need him, can't, there's no way out to live a real fulfilling life without him.
Also, Jesus will help you stop being upset about the state of the world and help you accept the world. It's just how it's supposed to be.
Um,
and it literally never once engage.
The life and words of Jesus. Like a [00:32:00] historical Jesus, right?
Mm-hmm.
And so if you can just like replace Jesus in this song with like a cult leader name Uhhuh, and it fits perfectly
Krispin: Uhhuh.
Danielle: that's it.
It could be the Rajnesh, you know? It could be anything cuz it's just a disembodied image that you put in your head, right? And you live your life in accordance to this disembody. Image. Right. And for us, of course it was white Jesus, you
know? and conservative white Jesus. And so I'm like, yeah, this is absolutely brainwashing.
Jesus freak as an album was brainwashing. Mm-hmm. Um, for a disembodied, a historical Jesus who would encourage young people to never look outside of evangelical Christianity for anything, including politics, which is really
important.
Krispin: So you've been reading this book called When God Talks
Danielle: mm-hmm.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. And been telling me snippets about it that I found fascinating. There is [00:33:00]this dynamic that happens right where.
People, uh, you know, get into Christianity or have been in it, and then they hit this wall of like, I don't feel peace.
I don't feel these things that are
Danielle: promised. And
maybe you felt it even in the beginning, right? Uhhuh, like I think people who grew up charismatic have that experience, right?
You'll get this big emotion or in worship when you're a
Krispin: mm-hmm.
Danielle: Teenager in high school, right? Like, and you're on your. Camp trip and you're really tired and then you feel the Holy Spirit where, and then you're always chasing that high cuz you felt good. Mm-hmm. And now you have to do so much work, you know, to get yourself back to that place of feeling good.
Krispin: Right? Yeah. And
Danielle: you on this little cycle.
Krispin: Right. And I think what's, just to kind of set this up, um, what I found fascinating about it is the person that wrote this book, when God take talks back, Lujan, I think, um, is an anthropologist. So just to kind of give some framework for this, it's like they were trying to study like what happens, like how do [00:34:00] people cope?
It's not like a, um, yeah. It's coming from this sort of like objective, trying to understand peace. I mean, you were telling me about how. There is, there are these coping mechanisms that hit, that come up, right? This narrative around like, if you're not feeling peace, it's because God is putting you through a challenge or wants you to trust him more, or,
yeah.
Danielle: and so it's like there's a variety of ways you can respond if you're in this place where they are telling you about this interventionist God, this personal Jesus that you can talk to all day, that will tell you how to live your life and that you should always be trying to be more receptive to that voice and always trying to align your thoughts, actions, beliefs, everything to this disembodied voice of Jesus, right.
And if you know, again, and this gives even more sticky and charismatic cuz it's like DC talk wasn't even charismatic,
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Steven
Danielle: it one step farther in charismatic churches where they're like, yeah, Jesus wants you to feel good, but also like physically [00:35:00] wants to heal you, uhhuh and wants to give you prophecies and wants you to speak in tongues.
And, um, so if something happens, right, and you pray for healing for somebody and they're not healed, right? Then you have a little bit of a crisis. Like, well
do I, no. If you spent all your.
Being surrounded by people who say, no, Jesus is good. Jesus is present. Like you're not gonna blame Jesus. Right. You're gonna blame yourself in a way.
And yeah, in the book, when God talks about, cuz it's very interesting how a lot of charismatic people, according to this anthropologist, Tanya Luhrman, you know, they were like, oh, it's actually a sign. That God is just testing you, right? Like now you're a mature believer and so like God pulls back his presence.
So you must like
worship
more and pray more. And it's all about testing your relationship. Like how devoted are you to God? And, and actually, you know, to this anthropologists are like, but what about like the big things like when one of the pastors of the [00:36:00] churches dies of cancer, like young and leaves young kids like. She was sort of saying like, you would expect people to just leave or just have this huge existential crisis. And they didn't. All they said was like, yeah, God's ways are not our ways. And I think that was so fascinating to me, is like there is no big response. It's just like, yeah, we don't, we just don't know Uhhuh, and that's how they deal with this disconnect.
I was like, yeah, that's how I was raised for sure. You know, like Right. Yeah.
Krispin: And I think it's so interesting in the context, Song because they're saying like, Jesus will give you
Danielle: Yes.
Krispin: Right. And so, but
Danielle: so what happens when you don't feel the peace?
Krispin: Then you have to have this like, you know, uh, what like plan B sort of like, it's still true
Danielle: Yeah. I wrote three books. That's what happened to me.
Krispin: I know. I mean, I think that's relevant because I think that's where a lot of us go. Like I think about reading Philip Yancy, I think about. People that I really respect in a lot of ways have written about these things, right? Like, I've always been drawn to people that are, you know, [00:37:00]talking about how, you know, I don't always feel God or like things are not as I was promised and, you know, but it's interesting to think about, um, you know, if that's helpful, that's great, but to recognize the ways that.
That people that are more honest about like not feeling God can actually like drive home this narrative more in a different
Danielle: Okay. I'm gonna say something really. Okay.
Krispin: Okay.
Danielle: So when I think about Evangelicalism surprise there, when I think about Evangelicalism, white Evangelicalism and DC talk, and the media and everything, we were just saturated with all this indoctrination, is what I would call it. Now, what I think is really kind of sad is when I think about the people who stayed, you know, like I stayed until I was, you know, 38 Not really, but you know,
Krispin: Mm-hmm. It's
Danielle: somewhat in it. And I feel like the common denominator. Is the people who stay are the people who [00:38:00] blame themselves for not feeling peace instead of blaming God, or instead of looking at the system and being like, wait a minute, this doesn't, you know, it's people who are like, oh yeah, I'm a little piece of shit that needs to try harder.
Like, of course I don't feel God's presence. I don't really deserve. I think about all the situations I've put myself in
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: and it really seems to speak to a fundamental. Like lack of sense of self or, or self-love or self-trust and like that's really a bummer. And so it is hard for me to engage in evangelical spaces now.
Even people who are trying to reform it, who are trying to do all this good work. Cuz to me it's like, ugh, I can just sense people who do not feel loved or accepted and are just desperately. make it good. Mm-hmm. So, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and I don't see that in all faith traditions or all Christian traditions, but there's just something about this interventionist, God or Jesus will give you everything you need and that's all you need.
And like [00:39:00] when that doesn't actually pan out, the people who stay in this cycle of striving to be close to God, I'm like, oh yeah. People who don't like themselves. Like that's the common denominator to
Krispin: I mean, it's interesting cuz there's a sense of relief when people, whoever, whether it's Philippians or whoever along the way, like says like, yeah, I'm a Christian and I don't feel it sometimes too. You know? And like it creates room for less self blame in a way. Right. But it also.
I
think puts us in this weird place of, so this, this feel, not that phobia is progressive, but it feels more progressive, right? Like it feels more like out of this like, happy Christian, k love, like whatever. Um, but then you're still left with that same question. And I think for myself, as someone who's like, okay, well then how do I deal with this question?
What's the problem? Like, I, I think the premise of like, well, God must be good.
Danielle: Yeah.[00:40:00]
Krispin: I have to figure out how to make this make sense is where you end up. Like sometimes that works for people. Like we are, we're not trying to like degrade people that have like, this is, you know, this is their, uh, faith tradition
Danielle: that
they choose.
Here, here, here's the other difference. Did Philip Bizi ever have a choice? If you read his new memoir, it doesn't seem like he had a choice. Mm-hmm. His mom dedicated him to God and was like really intensely emotionally immature person. Like Philipp, he has has his own shit going on, but.
For so many people born and raised in Evangelicalism who read Philipi books when they were 16 years old, like people like you and me,
we never had the choice.
We were indoctrinated into this.
Krispin: Yeah. I mean, I think for me it just makes me realize being 16 and reading Philip Yancy means that I've spent 20 years being like, this doesn't make [00:41:00] sense. Like, this doesn't feel good. I gotta make it make sense. God has to be good,
Danielle: God has to be good because do you see Tuck said?
Jesus is
all we need. You gotta like it and you gotta love it. Crispen. You gotta,
Krispin: I was just, okay. Little pivot to what we were just talking about. Finishing up the Hunger Games because you had to tap out cuz it was too intense. Um, if you want to, I
Danielle: lived them.
you want
hear in my mind,
Krispin: if you want to hear us talk about, this is a little pitch for our pet and only episode that we just did about Rebecca St.
James Sister Freaks. Uh, but we also talked about autistic characters and we talked a
Danielle: I have so much more to say about the Hunger game season than we did in
Krispin: man about the Hunger Games and they were, um, it was just really interesting cuz at the end they're like, do we, you know, do we die for this? Cause do we not like, And at the end they're like, we never had a choice.
Like our lives were [00:42:00] never our own. Like Snow always controlled us and we always, like, he could kill us at any moment. And we never
Danielle: talking about members of the Capitol? Mm-hmm.
Krispin: And, um, well, members of the Capitol, but even like all the districts, right? Like, cuz you could get called at any point into the Hunger Games.
And I was like, oh, I feel that. I feel that. Like you never. Had a choice. And so like the decisions you make later on, like you're trying to make in this framework of like, am I doing the right thing or the wrong thing? But it's, I don't know.
Danielle: Okay. No, I agree.
And I keep throwing out these terms and I, I bet most people just are not understanding what I'm saying, but when I say like a total list ideology, like the Hunger Games is an exploration of how every total list ideology does have cracks
and. It is hard work, internal work, right? To figure out how to do that and how to say, actually there's something beyond this and everything about my childhood and my young adult life and [00:43:00] all of that.
It's, it is also total list. And so I think it's so worth rereading. Works like the Hunger Games, if you came from a framework of totalism, which again has these implications for totalitarianism and thought reform and brainwashing, like these are all elements of a total list ideology. And it's so damaging and it's so damaging to have a total ideology in a pluralistic society.
And that is like where most of the. In the United States is stemming from, is from people with total list ideologies, white conservative lawmakers.
Right. Just saying it's our way or nothing. Right. So anyways, I have a lot more to say about that. That's, that's probably not
Krispin: Well, I mean, so if y'all, Danielle's been talking for a while about not being a Christian, uh, you've probably picked up along the way because this is the only place that I really talk publicly about my own process.
Um, but watching the Hunger Games, Peter gets [00:44:00] brainwashed and then he comes out and he's like, you know, true or not true, he's always like asking like, is this true or not? And that really resonates with me too.
Danielle: And it's, it's just a shitty way to live, like to be told this total, this ideology, it. It created such internal strife for both of us, and we both dealt with it in different ways, but at the heart of it, it was like, but we don't feel good and we don't feel loved, and we don't feel And all we're being told to do with those feelings right is to blame ourselves and to try harder, to try harder to make it good.
And so, yeah, I mean very much elements of the brainwash.
Krispin: You got teary-eyed during the Patreon only podcast. I'm tearing up
Danielle: worried. I'm like, I'm worried for you, but like you're in, you're in charge of what you wanna share and how you wanna share it. And you know what? I think the people that listen to this podcast are also on a journey with us.
Like [00:45:00] you and I are not experiencing these huge shifts, like in a vacuum. Mm-hmm. Like there is just a lot going on cultural. I think a lot of people are like us and we wanna continue to make space for people who are on a journey. But I think there is some pressure, I have felt being like, okay, if we've been publicly Christian, you know, I think it's okay for us to also publicly be like we are in a transition.
You know? And just cuz I might put more intense labels on it, like the, like the, the word deconversion is so important to me. Um, just because. Really to me is putting the, the pressure on the indoctrination conversion experience mm-hmm. Of who grew up like me, you know? If you had to become a Christian, cuz this is the most important thing to your parents or community or whatever, you know, so, but that's not like true for everyone.
And so I hope we can keep modeling what it's like to, [00:46:00] to keep processing this and just know like you have spent thousands of. Thinking about this stuff like you really have and
Krispin: Yeah, I, maybe I said this before on our podcast, but um, I was in therapy. Within the last few months and I was looking at our bookshelves, which are right here, like just our bookshelves filled with all these books of like theology and psychology. And I
Danielle: Plus all the shitty books we read for this podcast or that I read. You don't read them. Yes. There's so many.
Krispin: But I remember just looking at it and being like,
Part of me enjoys this, like I said at, at the top of the episode, like I'd like, you know, getting into it and doing the research and all that stuff, but part of me was also like, what if I don't want to do the research anymore to figure out how to make this make sense?
Um, and that's kind of like where I'm at right now. I don't know exactly what [00:47:00] that means, but
Danielle: yeah, I think for many years both of us have used research and intellect as a way to engage with Christianity when it, you know, maybe wasn't good for spiritually or physically or any of those things, but like to engage our mind with these.
And there's amazing thinkers, right, who are Christians, all this stuff. So yeah, our books. We just have so many books, so many Christian, non-fiction, but like we have tried so hard to make this work. I think there's a few people who have tried as hard as us, but you know, it's not, it's not everybody. I'll say that.
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm so glad that we got to talk a bit about this because I think as much as like, so many of us would really, you know, say like, yeah, I don't, I don't think you just need Jesus. Like, I think you need doctors and therapists and, you know, blah, blah, blah. But I, I, I
Danielle: Marvel movies. I just can't, I can't get over that. This, [00:48:00] you won't find peace in Superman. It's like, okay. Right. I, I do enjoy, uh, Loki a lot. Is that bad?
Krispin: this album, this song, I mean, think about all the money that went into making it producing and that it, this is just like, you know, huge. And then you look at the song and you're like,
Danielle: lyrics are so, Man, there's like seven people credited as writers on this.
I was just like, what?
Krispin: I mean it really feels like they got into the studio.
Like we all know, maybe we don't all know, cuz I go deep into music. Uh, but you know, we've all heard these stories of like, yeah, they showed up and the lyrics weren't done, but it was trying to record. So they had to put a line in there that rhymed. That's what that feels
Danielle: like. They were calling Jerry Falwell. Jerry, what do we say? What do the.
what
do they do with Santa of Jesus? You're Jesus. What are they do? Oh, Superman,
we
gotta laugh because otherwise Chris business isn't gonna cry. Cry.
Krispin: I'm okay. I'm just, [00:49:00] I'm just sharing, sharing my process.
Danielle: We gotta take, we taking I turns,
Krispin: But yeah, we so appreciate y'all being along for the journey.
Danielle: more songs. Do we have to talk about in Jesus Freak?
Krispin: Well, so I'm gonna talk to someone about In The Light, so that's coming up.
But the last,
Danielle: yeah, we're wrapping this up guys.
Krispin: three songs, I don't think anybody remembers them. Knows them. We might need an episode called the Rest of the
Songs.
Danielle: do like a rapid fire. So we have a few more episodes going this season and then we're gonna wrap it up, take a little break, and then we have a pretty fun idea for what we're doing next. So
we're really
Krispin: about it. So we we're, we're excited to, to wrap this up quickly, and y'all don't want us, Dr. Drudging, through those last three songs that nobody remembers,
Danielle: how many more times do you wanna listen to me talk about thought reform? You, you probably don't.
Krispin: Well, thank you so much y'all for listening and you can always [00:50:00] join us on Patreon, um, cuz we talk about these things over there. We talk about the episodes and as I mentioned before, uh, we just recorded a Patreon episode, um, talking about the Hunger Games and Jesus Freaks, sister freaks.
Um, so make sure to join us over there. Thanks so much.
Danielle: Thank you.[00:51:00]
