Before Jesus Freaks, there were Jesus People
The movie "Jesus Revolution" has brought the Jesus People Movement on the radar again, and we talk about some of the history, including Lonnie Frisbee, and how Greg Laurie has been re-telling the story of how the Jesus People movement began.
Check out the documentary DL suggests about Lonnie Frisbee here.
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Thanks so much to Meagan House for providing transcription for the episode!
TRANSCRIPT
Danielle: Hello!
Krispin: We're calling this the Mrs. Morgan part of the series. (LAUGHTER)
Danielle: Oh, this is Mrs. Morgan, part two?
Krispin: Uhhuh. Yes, because, you know…
Danielle: No, this…
Krispin: It’s a little interlude again.
Danielle: It’s not an interlude. It's the prelude.
Krispin: Oh.
Danielle: It's the prelude. Because where did DC talk get this idea of Jesus freaks from?
Krispin: Mm.
Danielle: You have to tell me.
Krispin: The Jesus movement.
Danielle: Yes! the Jesus movement.
Krispin: I mean…
Danielle: So that's what we're talking about today.
Krispin: …I kind of knew that since that's what we're talking about today.
Danielle: (LAUGHTER) You're supposed to be a stand-in for the listener, Krispin.
Krispin: Okay.
Danielle: Okay?
Krispin: They've seen the, the description by this point.
Danielle: Oh.
Krispin: They know that we're talking about it.
Danielle: I don't read the description before I listen to podcasts.
Krispin: Yeah, me neither. (LAUGHTER)
Danielle: Okay. Anyway, so that's what we're talking about. The prelude to DC Talk and Jesus freaks is, uh, what we would call the Jesus movement. Sometimes it's called like the Jesus people.
Krispin: Is that different than Jesus People USA?
Danielle: I mean, they, that was like birthed out of the Jesus movement. Does that make sense?
Krispin: Okay. Yes.
Danielle: But in general, just call them Jesus people.
Krispin: Uhhuh.
Danielle: You know, we're just people who follow Jesus. What comes to your mind when you hear that?
Krispin: Bare feet.
Danielle: Yeah. Okay. What else?
Krispin: Long hair.
Danielle: Yeah. Okay.
Krispin: California.
Danielle: So hippies…
Krispin: Yes.
Danielle: …is what you're saying.
Krispin: Uhhuh.
Danielle: Okay. What era are you thinkin’?
Krispin: Um, I'm, I'm thinking of hippies without the regalia though. Anyway…
Danielle: Okay.
Krispin: Uh, I'm thinking…
Danielle: Like, no marijuana.
Krispin: Yes.
Danielle: Okay.
Krispin: But also like I feel like they don't wear as much - I feel like Jesus people don't wear as much jewelry, but their hair is as long as their and their feet are as bare.
Danielle: Okay. Okay.
Krispin: Um, (LAUGHTER) in my mind…
Danielle: Yeah, okay.
Krispin: …I'm thinking the ‘70s because my mind is like, hippies are ‘60s and Christian copycat movements…
Danielle: Oh.
Krispin: …always come 10 years later.
Danielle: You know? You're not wrong there, bud. You're not wrong. ‘Cause I keep saying the ‘60s, but really it kind of started in 1969, so basically the ‘70s. So yeah. Yeah.
Krispin: Yes. My logic was correct.
Danielle: Right. So I mean, what, what are we gonna do here today is just kind of me info dumping about some stuff I've been researching.
Krispin: (LAUGHTER) And a movie you didn't watch.
Danielle: And a movie I didn't see.
Krispin: right.
Danielle: And so people can, you know, bail ship now if they want to. But I have been thinking a lot about the Jesus movement recently and have been doing some deep dives on it, partly for this podcast, but also I would say the majority just to help me understand my life because both of my parents were really impacted by the Jesus movement. It's a huge part of their like faith story, and there's just been tons of mythologizing around the Jesus movement happening, like currently, and I just thought it would be interesting to talk about that.
Krispin: Right. Okay. Now I think it's worth mentioning that this was not necessarily out of thin air, though it is related to our, our season.
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: There is a movie that is out right now called The Jesus Revolution?
Danielle: Yeah, Jesus Revolution. Mm-hmm.
Krispin: And which is about the Jesus movement.
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: You were gonna go see it, you did a bunch of prep around it.
Danielle: Uhhuh. Uhhuh
Krispin: And then we got snowed in for days and realized that in all the prep, you understand that it's a propaganda movie…
Danielle: (LAUGHTER) Yeah.
Krispin: …that you don't need to see to be able to talk about.
Danielle: I don't really need to give them my money to see it. And actually, listener of and friend of the show, Zack mom[MH1] …
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: …I don't know if I'm saying his name correctly, I'm sorry, Zach. Um, he had messaged me and said he had seen an early screener and he gave me a little bit of info, which is basically like the info I was most wanting to know about the movie. And so he told me that and I was like oh yeah, now I don’t really need to go, yay! (LAUGHTER)
Krispin: So you do have a, uh, fact checker?
Danielle: A little bit, yes.
Krispin: Yeah. Uhhuh.
Danielle: But also I'm like, I don't really think I even need one at this point.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: If you think I do, I don't know. Like that's fine. Um, I think it's fine to critique things you haven't seen because I'm not just critiquing the movie. I'm critiquing the mythologizing of the specific period in history.
Krispin: And it seems like there, there is a connection between this movie and The Jesus Music, I believe.
Danielle: Oh, I'm so glad you said that. What do you know about that connection?
Krispin: Uh, not a lot, but, um, as you, if you were a Patreon, uh, member at that time we actually watched it together as a community at some point in this last year. Um, but Greg…
Danielle: The Jesus Music documentary. Uhhuh.
Krispin: …yes, uhhuh. And Greg Laurie was in it quite a bit talking about the Jesus movement. Like that was like, they talk about the music side of it, but like, I feel like there's a lot of overlap because Greg Laurie was in that documentary a lot.
Danielle: And you know what's so funny is like I definitely have a radar for like bad people in evangelicalism, right?
Krispin: Yes.
Danielle: Like you could say a name and I could just spit out some facts about bad things they've done, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Um, but Greg Laurie, I have no clue who he is. Like I watched that documentary ‘cause you forced me to for this podcast. But I don't remember him being in it. I don't remember what he said. Like I think if you had asked me I'd be like, oh, did he like do some stuff with Trump, which of course he did. Um, but beyond that, I don't really know of him. I knew of Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel, but not a ton.
Krispin: Yeah, I mean the reason that I know of him is ‘cause watching it in the theater all alone, I had to Google him to be like, who is this dude? So…
Danielle: Okay. So, so I think some people know him. Greg Laurie is like basically now a megachurch pastor of a church in Riverside, California. I believe it's called Harvest something-something. Um…
Krispin: Was that the one that, um, never mind, we'll cut that.[MH2]
Danielle: Okay. And he also started something called the Harvest Crusades, which according to his website, these evangelistic events have had more than 9.8 million people participate in them. Okay. And so he is like, I guess this, you know, prominent white evangelical pastor guy. But in the past few years, he's really become, I would say almost obsessed with this idea of reframing the Jesus movement with himself, you know, as the star and the center of it. And that does go back to this Jesus, uh, music documentary. You know, he wrote the Foreword for like a book about The Jesus Music. He was in the documentary, involved in production. They sell it on his church's website for $30. You know, like they're actively promoting it. So yes, he's…
Krispin: It’s $30?
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: Oh my gosh.
Danielle: So, I mean, that's what's insane is like he makes a lot of money off of this stuff, you know?
Krispin: Uhhuh.
Danielle: So there's that. And that documentary basically existed to get all these contemporary Christian artists that if you grew up like us, right? You have this like emotional bond to some of these people, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: So, um, TobyMac was in it.
Krispin: Yeah.
Danielle: Were any, was anybody else from DC Talk in it?
Krispin: Yeah yeah. Um, all of them.
Danielle: All of them. See? This is how bad my memory is.
Krispin: (LAUGHTER)
Danielle: And I blame trauma, okay? When you are a highly anxious person, you're not really able to develop a lot of memories ‘cause all of your energy is going on to surviving. So I have a really bad memory…
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: …which maybe doesn't make people trust me, um, as a podcast host, but okay. (LAUGHTER) You know, I wish I didn't have all this awful information about awful evangelicals is what I'm trying to say. But I do, and the reason I remember TobyMac is, and we talked about this in our episode, is he just looks haggard and really sad because he's been through a lot of personal tragedy and that, I think that's why I remember TobyMac was in it. But yes, all of these people: Amy Grant, Michael W. Smith, Steven Curtis Chapman, like they're all - all of this comes from the Jesus movement.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: You know, these hippies in this sun-drenched California, late ‘60s, early ‘70s, and Larry Norman. But the Jesus movement really is the place where they started. You know, all these young people were gathering, these churches were exploding, and then they were…
Krispin: They basically were, like, appropriating, like the hippie movement in terms of like, you know, aesthetics, but also music. Right? That's kind of how we got here musically.
Danielle: Sort of, I mean, yeah, like lots of choruses, lots of singing, so they started writing songs and then producing the music and then, and yeah, that's like the first commercialized Christian, you know, worship music. And, and lots of bands came outta that too. I think Larry Norman, you know, is, is a pretty famous one. But yeah, so that's kind of how the documentary laid the groundwork for this movie that came out this week called Jesus Revolution, which is like this, you know, Hollywood take on the Jesus movement. And of course the main character is Greg Laurie, and the movie is based off of a book written by Greg Laurie…
Krispin: Who plays…
Danielle: …Greg Laurie about himself. (LAUGHTER)
Krispin: And who plays Greg Laurie?
Danielle: I don't know. Some young kid.
Krispin: Oh, okay.
Danielle: Um, yeah, and so, but Chuck Smith is in this movie as the founder of Calvary Chapel, and he's played by Kelsey Grammer, which is probably one of the biggest names that people will recognize in this movie. Which, as an aside, Kelsey Grammer is a horrible person, has multiple abuse allegations against him and is a rabid Trump supporter. So that all checks out, him, uh, playing Chuck Smith I guess.
Krispin: I need to know who Jim Gaffigan plays.
Danielle: Oh, I think he probably has a bit part.
Krispin: Oh, okay.
Danielle: But yeah, so I, I, ‘cause in the movie Greg Laurie is 19, right? So he's a young guy.
Krispin: Ah.
Danielle: And he's like, interested in like what's all this about? And he is converted by Lonnie Frisbee, who is kind of the person I've been fixating on in the past few weeks researching and learning about, because Lonnie Frisbee is this integral part of the Jesus movement. And yet he has been written out or highly edited, right, in all of these accounts. And that is absolutely true for The Jesus Revolution. And that's the information like Zach was giving me about, like how did they treat Lonnie? Um, and so that's the information I was, I was mostly interested in. So, yeah.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. and yeah. Lonnie Frisbee started Vineyard started to Calvary Chapel and Vineyard?
Danielle: Well, I mean, should we get into it?
Krispin: Yeah. Well, I think it's just important to say like, why is Lonnie Frisbee so important?
Danielle: Yeah, okay. So you ready for this Krispin?
Krispin: Yes. Uhhuh.
Danielle: And I just wanna preface this by saying, um, I'm trying to work on myself and notice like when the things I get hyperfixated on, or, or they're starting to become a special interest. Like where, where is that coming from? And my therapist, you know, recently, said your special interests just seem to like trigger you into fight response, and they don't seem to be like super calming for you. So I'm like in this space of trying to evaluate why am I diving so deep into this. Like why am I watching documentaries on Lonnie Frisbee? Why am I reading Chuck Smith, John Wimber and Greg Laurie's accounts of the Jesus movement to see what they did to Lonnie? Like, why am I doing all of this work? Like for what? For this podcast? That doesn't seem like a good payoff if you're asking me, right?
Krispin: (LAUGHTER) Uhhuh.
Danielle: So I'm just trying to be like, okay, let's take a step back. But I already did a lot of the research, so I I am gonna share some of that here.
Krispin: (LAUGHTER)
Danielle: I'm gonna let it out here. But basically, when you think of the Jesus movement, you already told me, like you think of hippies with long hair, bare feet, dressed in like kind of simple hippie clothes.
Krispin: No necklaces.
Danielle: No necklaces, no beads, right? No wooden beads.
Krispin: Yes. Uhhuh.
Danielle: Um, well basically the person you're thinking of is Lonnie Frisbee. So he was like a young man who kind of had like a traumatic, troubled upbringing. He ran away from home and was, you know, really smart, but got really into drugs, psychedelics, like a lot of people were, a lot of traumatized people were, if I'm being perfectly honest.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And, but he, he would do things like ask all his friends to go hiking like by Palm Springs and get to the top of like a hike and have everybody take LSD and THC and then read his Bible and paint pictures of Jesus and like read passages about John the Baptist and hear visions from God that said, you're like John the Baptist and you're gonna preach and, and thousands will be baptized and hear My name and, you know. And so that’s all interesting, isn’t it?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: So then he's wandering around like, Haight-Ashbury in San Francisco where all the hippies are. He talks about Jesus. In the beginning he kind of thought Jesus was like an alien, you know?
Krispin: ‘Kay. Love that.
Danielle: And, I know. So these Christians had started like a little hippie commune to minister to people because there was lots of bad S-H-I-T going on, like…
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: …like think about the women who, who joined this movement for peace and love and think about how they were probably abused, right, in these spaces…
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right.
Danielle: …with while on drugs and all, all this stuff. So, um, and lots of them didn't have money and all that. So, these Christians found Lonnie. They really liked him. He did love to read his Bible and they kind of like set him straight like, okay, Jesus is not an alien, you know…
Krispin: (LAUGHTER)
Danielle: (LAUGHTER) Okay.
Krispin: Christian theology 101: Jesus was not an alien. That being said, kind of, you know, is an alien in Christian theology.
Danielle: There we go. So it's, it's just funny to think about. They're like, okay, we like, we like your enthusiasm.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Let us set you straight. So then he kind of was sort of like a wandering itinerant hippie preacher and loved to talk about God. It's unclear like when he stopped taking LSD or whatever. Um, but lots of Christians were like, I met Jesus while high. That was my last trip. Like from that point on, right?
Krispin: Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Danielle: I was all in on Jesus. Which is interesting language if you think about it.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: So then Chuck Smith was this conservative, like pastor of like a kind of smallish church, and him and his wife lived in Orange County, California, and they were just like super disturbed by hippies. Like these dirty hippies
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Like everyone else in Orange County? (LAUGHTER)
Danielle: yes, exactly like, like these hippies are taking over our conservative Christian enclave in Southern California. They're very upset about it.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And, and this is so mythologized in the stories like, haha, it's so funny how much Chuck Smith and his wife hated hippies, which I find horrifying.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: But anyways, so then he had one of his daughters bring him a hippie ‘cause he wanted to talk to one. And I think she first…
Krispin: (LAUGHTER) Bring me a hippie!
Danielle: Bring me a hippie! I think she first brought her boyfriend who was kind of a hippie. And then he brought Lonnie. And Chuck Smith liked Lonnie. He said, this guy knows his Bible, wants to talk about the Bible, wants to talk about Jesus, and is a very charismatic person. And so he started having Lonnie like come and preach at his services and, and Lonnie truly just was like an old-school revivalist, but in a hippie…
Krispin: Uhhuh.
Danielle: …you know, a hippie body. And he didn't talk about hell or anything like that, but he was like, hey, I think everything that happened in the New Testament can happen to us today. And so he's like reaching into these charismatic roots. And so he was charismatic in style, but also in theology. And so there's like, he would pray for people. He would say God wants to heal you. He would say, God can heal you, God can talk to you. Um, and he orchestrated these like emotional experiences, and people did have these experiences with the Spirit or the divine, you know, at these things. And so he, he was just so good at getting hippies into Chuck Smith's church…
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: …and then Chuck Smith would then preach the sermons that were like more Bible-based or whatever. So it's this interesting combination of this charismatic hippie who says God loves you and Jesus wants you to feel the Holy Spirit today. And then Chuck Smith will then come next and be like, and here's how you read the Bible and how it'll impact you today. And what's, what I continue to find fascinating is people like Chuck Smith, right? This, they never talked about history, scholarship, Jewish interpretation. It was just how Chuck Smith read the Bible and you know what it means for today, so...
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Straight outta Orange County interpretation. (LAUGHTER)
Danielle: Exactly. So that's like a huge component of the Jesus movement is people getting brought in under the idea of connection to divine love and an interventionist God who will come and grace you with His presence.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Love, peace, healing, you know, all this stuff.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And then also this idea of and the Bible is to be read like a personal handbook for your problems.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Right? Um, and that's kind of it. And, and if you are having problems, you're just not reading the Bible enough or you're not feeling this, the presence of God enough. Now, what did you want? You wanna say something?
Krispin: well, it just, it really reminds me of like the, this model of like early 2000s of like, it's like this conservative denomination is gonna fund this church plant, but they're really artsy and they're really like progressive-looking and, right?
Danielle: Yeah, yeah.
Krispin: Like, which it makes me just think the same thing of like on, you know, on the front and it looks very, like, the aesthetics fit, right? And then, but actually like the core of it is this like conservative ideology.
Danielle: Yeah, I think people like Chuck Smith, um, are, are very smart in their own way. Right? He, the reason he didn't like hippies is because he was very upset at like, the value revolution taking place in the 1960s, which if we take a step back and look at it, right? What was happening in the 1960s, right? Black people were saying, we are freaking sick of being discriminated against in every level of society.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Like, fix it. Um, and then, you know, feminism was on the rise.
Krispin: right. Yeah, women saying, like...
Danielle:, Women were inching towards the place where they could have their own bank accounts for crying out loud. Like, oh, we better stop that. Um, and then of course the protests with Vietnam that ended up happening and with hippies saying like, we are uncomfortable with increasing militarization and like the U.S. military presence worldwide, and Vietnam is such a good example of how toxic and tragic this can be. And so...,
Krispin: Danielle, the FBI could not have done this better.
Danielle:, Right?
Krispin: Like infiltrated these like hippie communities.
Danielle: And turned them conservative?
Krispin: Yes!
Danielle: Exactly!
Krispin: Right?
Danielle: Okay. Thank you. Because I, you know, my little conspiracy theory brain sometimes is like, but that's what I'm saying. Chuck Smith was smart. He said we have to reach the hippies.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Or like, or white conservative Christianity is not going to make it. Like, and he did that. And he did that by using Lonnie Frisbee, by using someone who I believe was a true believer. Um, he truly believed God was talking to him. And you know, from my point, now I can see he's somebody who experienced a lot of this while on LSD and while not on LSD, you know what I mean? Like…
Krispin: Yes. Uhhuh.
Danielle: …there's just so many commonalities in his story that makes Christians uncomfortable, I believe. But it's important to kind of sit in. So Chuck Smith used Lonnie, and then Lonnie got a little too charismatic for him. He didn't like, um, when people would fall down and shake and he didn't like demon possession. Like Lonnie saying people were demon possessed.
Krispin: Oh.
Danielle: And ‘cause he was sort of like, well, they're Christians. How can they be demon possessed? So those are the reasons he gave for finally telling Lonnie to move on. It is important to note this is like after like Lonnie had packed out the place. Chuck was starting to plant other churches and now Calvary Chapel. It basically has like 1,800 churches. Like it's huge. And it was all because of the revivals that Lonnie started, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: So after Lonnie does that, he kind of flits around here and there. He ends up finally making his way to John Wimber's church who uh, starts the Vineyard and he does the same thing there. He has these very famous sermons, these very famous revivals start. That's when like the charismatic stuff really starts happening in the Vineyard, all because of Lonnie. And then he ends up getting kicked out of that church because, um, someone came to the leadership and was like, I've been having like a six-month affair with Lonnie. And it was a young man. And so the church was like, oh my gosh, Lonnie's gay. He can't be in ministry anymore.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And from that point on, Lonnie was just not allowed to do anything. Um, and he ended up, it's just like a really sad story. So trigger warnings. Okay. Trigger warnings people. After basically, and the Vineyard church, by the way, has like 2,400 churches now. Like, so Lonnie really was the revivalist who started both of these denominations.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Plus as the movie shows, he's the one who led Greg Laurie to Christ when Greg was 19 years old. And he told Greg Laurie, God's going to use you to preach to thousands, to convert thousands of people, and that's why Greg Laurie has kept Lonnie Frisbee in his story while like John Wimber totally erased him from the narrative. And Lonnie's not mentioned in any Vineyard materials or anything like that by name. Greg Laurie kept Lonnie in his story because Lonnie prophesied over him and said you will do great things. God will use you. But he edited out everything else because Lonnie ended up dying at age 43 of AIDS, like just totally cast aside from all the Christians, all the men that used him, except they came to visit him while he was dying, while he was on hospice care just so that they could come back and tell people at the end of his life, Lonnie repented and you know, died and I guess went to heaven or whatever. And like Chuck, Smith spoke at Lonnie's funeral. And you know what he said?
Krispin: What?
Danielle: He said, Lonnie is a tragic figure. Like Sampson, somebody who wasted, you know, his calling on God by turning to sin and like he never lived up to his full potential. That's what he said at the funeral.
Krispin: Oh my gosh.
Danielle: Like, people who actually loved Lonnie were livid. Like Connie, I mean, Connie Frisbee, who was Lonnie's ex-wife, um, I mean, she said she, and this, there's this amazing documentary about Lonnie Frisbee. I encourage everyone to watch it. It's on Amazon.
Krispin: So that's where you're getting a lot of this.
Danielle: Yes. And Connie was like, I had to be restrained from getting up outta my seat at Lonnie's funeral when Chuck Smith got up and said that.
Krispin: Really? Huh.
Danielle: Like, what a horrific way to just put one more dig onto Lonnie. He didn't live up to his full potential.
Krispin: Hmm.
Danielle: So, this is some big stuff. And in the, in The Jesus Revolution movie, they do, again, they have Lonnie as a character, which was kind of shocking to me, but now I'm like, of course they do. He's the aesthetic choice. He's the one who looks like a hippie. He's the one who actually believed God was speaking to him. He's the one who prophesied over Greg Laurie and Chuck Smith. So the white conservative men, you know?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: They need him in there, but the movie just says he died. And they never talk about him being gay, and they just, so they leave out all of the rest of it.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And, and Greg Laurie is now kind of like making the rounds, doing these YouTube interviews where he's like, never mentions that Laurie’s gay. I mean, Lonnie's gay. But it says like Lonnie sinned, like he was important in that he was there in the beginning, but he's not really important to the rest of the story. And he does the same thing Chuck Smith did, which says like he was like Sampson. He wasted his potential because he chose to sin.
Krispin: Hmm.
Danielle: And you know what's really sad?
Krispin: Hmm?
Danielle: I watched this YouTube interview with, with Greg Laurie , talking about Lonnie, and it just like shook me to my core because he said he went to visit Lonnie when Lonnie was on hospice and dying of AIDS. And again, Greg Laurie abandoned him. Like Chuck Smith, John Wimber, all these men abandoned Lonnie the second they could. Now when he is dying, they kind of come back and wanna be like, are you sad for being gay? You know, can we use your story?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And he said that Lonnie was repentant, whatever that means. He was sorry he didn't, he never wanted to promote his lifestyle. And then he said - this shook me to my core. He said that Lonnie, because he'd sort of repented and was trying to make amends with all these, these Christians, he thought that God was going to heal him and was going to use him to preach again to thousands of people, and so he did not think he was going to die of AIDS. He, at the end of his life, he was kind of saying the same things he'd been saying his whole life, like, God's going to use me and Greg Laurie was like yeah it was pretty tragic because he was so sick, so gaunt. One eye was closed. Like he was delusional, you know, and was kind of sad and I was just like, you call him delusional there, but in your movie he's not.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Because what he was saying was that you, Greg Laurie, are gonna preach to thousands and convert thousands, but then at the end of his life you say he's delusional. You say that on these public podcasts. Like it's so wrong to me.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Like how people have used Lonnie Frisbee’s life in the story of this Jesus movement, and at this point I'm like, it's better to erase him than to do what Greg Laurie has done, which is just to make him this tragic figure, but who's worthwhile because he had the aesthetic look and he, you know, brought the people in and he said these positive prophecies about Greg Laurie. So I do encourage people to read the documentary. I mean, read…
Krispin: (LAUGHTER)
Danielle: …watch the documentary Lonnie Frisbee: Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher on Amazon. It's, it's made by a Christian and it's pretty low budget. And so I definitely think there's some trigger warnings if you are from the queer community and you don't wanna hear Christians being like casually homophobic and cruel.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: That's a lot. But at this point, I'm sure people are used to that as well.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Um, but it does such a good job of trying to be like, who is this guy that's been erased from all the narratives?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Sorry, that's a lot. And I feel like really upset now just talking about it. So I, I gotta calm down for a sec. What are, what are some thoughts you have?
Krispin: I think what's so, like, you've been talking publicly a little bit about this movie and how it's terrible.
Danielle: Mm.
Krispin: and I think what is like so tricky I'm in this place where I'm like, I don't know what I believe. You're like, I'm not a Christian.
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: I think if you are in the Church and you are a Christian, there's this really, this thing that comes up that like even hearing this story of like how these movements came about, right? It's so hard because there's this part of you, this part of me…
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: …that wants to say like, well, I don't want to diminish what God did. Like I can't criticize it or I can't say it's wrong.
Danielle: Right.
Krispin: Because what if I'm blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
Danielle: Which we were told was the unforgivable sin. So yeah, there's a reason why we're freaked out.
Krispin: Right. Uhhuh. Yeah. And it's really interesting ‘cause then you think about like how that functions, right? So like, ‘cause you've gotten, is it okay to say like you've gotten pushback from a variety of people?
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: From different spaces saying, hey, like, why are you criticizing, why are you throwing this out? Like, why are you 100% saying this is like bad, right? And you're like, because it's propaganda and it upholds, like, you know…
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: …this white nationalist, evangelical like, you know, form of Christianity. And yet I think it's so hard, um, if you are a Christian. I just want to name this like, ‘cause you don't want to be like, well what if God was moving? And like…
Danielle: Look at the fruits, Krispin. That's what they always say. I'm like, okay, well this happened 50 years ago. We can look at the fruits like Greg Laurie is a full-on Trumper who is making millions off of telling people the Jesus movement was really about him.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: He's just a man who wrote a book starring himself, who made a movie starring himself. It's a movie by Greg Laurie for Greg Laurie.
Krispin: (LAUGHTER)
Danielle: But because he uses all these Christian words, we're like, yeah, God's at work. We're like, no, this is a narcissist. This is just a boring old narcissist. That's really what it is about, and it pains me to say this.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: I don't want this to be true. I've been fighting this my whole freaking life.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Danielle: I needed it to be true because it was so meaningful to my parents. It's so meaningful to white evangelicals.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: I do not want to think of them as either nefarious or easily, um, you know…
Krispin: Deceived?
Danielle: Deceived.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Nobody wants that.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Danielle: I do not want that.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: But look at, I mean, just look at the facts.
Krispin: Uhhuh. If someone's listening out there…
Danielle: He’s, he's preaching his sermon as we speak ‘cause we're recording this on a Sunday morning. Greg Laurie is preaching a sermon as we speak, like with thousands of people turning in to hear him. Tell us the best is yet to come. That's what his sermon is titled today.
Krispin: If, if someone's out there that you know likes to edit images, please make a Jesus revolution poster that just says like Jesus revolution…
Danielle: By Greg Laurie, for Greg Laurie.
Krispin: Yes. A movie by Greg Laurie…
Danielle: About Greg Laurie for Greg Laurie.
Krispin: …About for about Greg Laurie for Greg Laurie.
Danielle: (LAUGHTER) By, about and for, that's what it is. It's a vanity project, Krispin.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: This is a vanity project. It also serves as propaganda. So, you know, it’s both.
Krispin: I, right. And I think it's like, it is so hard. Like I think part of me wants to get out of this like piece of like, is it of God or not? Because I think that that like trips us up at looking…
Danielle: Well, who's telling you it is of God?
Krispin: Right.
Danielle: Is that a better question to ask?
Krispin: Yes.
Danielle: Greg Laurie's telling you it's of God. That's what I'm saying.
Krispin: Right. It's true. Um, and I think like, we are often pressured to think like is this of God or not? And you have to be gracious and you have to be non-judgmental. And it really disallows us from like thinking historically about what this means.
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: Like that's something like - in the faith and justice this last year, um, Kristen Kobez Du Mez, um, has been part of the, um, program and so like having her as a historian and also Peter Choi as a historian who you heard earlier being like, we get, if we get stuck on asking these questions of like, is this of God? Like we, you know, is this true or not? Is it theologically true? Like we miss out on the chance to ask like, what, where does this fit in history and how is this impacting people? And so, I just think like, um, when I think about this and so much of the, ‘cause I've been seeing on, on my social media, people being like, I went to see this movie and it just was so inspiring. And even though it's problematic, like it's just a good reminder, uh, that God is moving. And If that is the narrative, it takes the focus off of like, what did this movement mean in history and what does it mean for our community? Like how has it impacted our community?
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: So which maybe is obvious, but I just wanted to like name that part of like when we get stuck in like, is this of God or not? It really, uh, prevents us from asking lots of other really important questions.
Danielle: Yeah, and you probably don't want me to talk about this, ‘cause I'm gonna be too intense about that.
Krispin: Yes. Okay. So that's me as like a speaking to like, if you're a Christian and you're like trying to figure that part out. So, but for you, what would you say?
Danielle: no. You don't want me to talk about this!
Krispin: Yes, I do!
Danielle: No you don't.
Krispin: Yes. We've just, you've just identified that, you know. Okay. This is, this is DL’S corner. DL’S Conspiracy Station.
Danielle: Conspiracy Corner! Um, well, I would just say the past few weeks have been interesting, right, with the Asbury Revival and just seeing like how people have cautioned everyone to, you know, wait and see and you know, you always wanna hope for the best and maybe God is at work and maybe, you know…
Krispin: That was where it started. That's why I was thinking about this, but I forgot to mention it. I'm so glad you brought it up.
Danielle: Well, I mean, again, conspiracy corner DL’s like, well why is Asbury Revival happening right now as this movie's coming out, as white evangelicals are getting more and more hysterical about the culture shifting away from them? Right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Um, it's funny ‘cause they're not like, they're still on the defensive. It's not like they've got a bunch of disaffected gen Zers to join them. Although Asbury has some younger people, which is why the older folks were like, thank God.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Gen Z is finally coming, you know, to Christ or whatever. Um, I also just saw that there's like, Measles outbreaks happening…
Krispin: Uhhuh.
Danielle: …‘cause of it. Uh, anyhow. And so for me, I've seen like progressive Christians, all these people like write all these posts about, we can't really judge. We do know that God does work in these things and so we have to - and I'm just like, what? You can judge! Anybody can judge anything they want to.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: I'm gonna talk to you listeners right now. You are allowed to judge. You are allowed to judge everything that comes across your life. And if anybody tells you you're not, that is a huge red flag. And I do mean progressive Christian authors. Anybody with a large social media platform telling people not to judge is a huge red flag. You are allowed to judge. Okay? Bottom line, you're a human. You're allowed to have your own thoughts, feelings about whatever. So that's what I wanna say about that. The second point is there's so many ethical problems with an interventionist God that we have to talk about. And so Asbury is a great example of this. Lonnie Frisbee's a great example of this. Like people who say no, God does like break through and communicates with humans and heals people and can fix your anxiety and can make your life make you feel better, make you feel better - like all of these things like God will have you speak in tongues. God will have you prophesy. Um, if that's true, if, if God chooses to intervene in the world in Asbury, and first of all not heal people of Measles…
Krispin: Uhhuh.
Danielle: …but um, you know, maybe of other things, who knows, but like, doesn’t intervene in earthquakes in Turkey and Syria that are killing millions and millions of people like, that's a monster God, I'm sorry. You serve a monster God who will only show up if you sing and pray until you're emotionally exhausted, and then will maybe make you feel a little good or something like that, but doesn't intervene in the rest. So like when people say like, I do believe in healings, I do believe this. I'm like, oh, you do? You do believe in interventionist God? Like, make it make sense for me!
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Because a God who heals like every 10th person, and only if you're doing everything right and that person's heart is right and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like I've been in these situations my whole life because I was dragged into charismatic spaces my whole life and went to a Pentecostal Bible college. So I've heard this shit over and over again, and I'm finally at the point where I can say an interventionist God is a monstrous God, and that is what I believe. And I know that's so offensive to people, and I'm really sorry if that's triggering, but I would ask you to just take some time to sit with this, okay? To sit with this reality and just stop saying, I believe it happens sometimes. Why? Then what does that mean for the rest of us.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: I'm sorry. I know Krispin’s not on the same page as me and I'm really sorry.
Krispin: Well, I mean it's funny ‘cause in a lot of…
Danielle: But that's good. It's good. We're modeling that there's different ways to…
Krispin: Right, yeah, that's true. Um, I mean also like, I remember being 16 and being like in China and being like, why did it even matter that Jesus came 2,000 years ago if like large portions of the world have no access, uh, to that, you know, good news. Um, I want to go back a minute to the red flag part ‘cause that is what…
Danielle: Okay.
Krispin: …has really, that's what really shocked me and that's what made me think about this movie too, is that like, whether it's Asbury or revival or this movie, people will be like, don't question God's work. Right?
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: And you have to like, but um, But yeah, the, the red flag part, when people say, don't question God, even people that are like, I think of as very progressive…
Danielle: Yes. Let's wait and see. Don't judge, don't rush to judgment.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. What’s the function there?
Danielle: Silencing.
Krispin: Okay.
Danielle: It's an enabling tactic, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: To allow these systems to perpetuate these things because even progressive Christians are tied to Asbury, right? Anybody who believes in an interventionist god is tied. to Asbury. Does that make sense?
Krispin: Yeah.
Danielle: And they don't wanna say that.
Krispin: Uhhuh.
Danielle: And they don't wanna think through all the ethical ramifications of our society is falling apart and the God we believe in is showing up…
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: …at a conservative, homophobic, racist school in Kentucky, and that's what we're supposed to get really excited about?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. It reminds me of being at, uh, Sean Feucht’s concert, uh, three years ago.
Danielle: A pox on all his houses.
Krispin: Um, (LAUGHTER) and, uh, you know, his outdoor worship, whatever, and people being like, why don't you come worship with us? And being like, I don't know if we worship the same God. And that feel felt so like weird and scary. And like I've been told my whole life to never do that. Never say like, the God that you worship is bad, you know, or, like, critique this, right?
Danielle: Yeah, for people who don't know, Krispin and I went and protested a Sean Feucht Riots to Revival event here in Portland in 2020, the summer of 2020. And we had been involved in Black Lives Matter protests that summer downtown…
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: …getting tear gassed, all that stuff. And then Sean Feucht showed up to sort of like say the Black Lives Matter protests are wrong and to have this revival. This is in the thick of Covid, gathered all these people to sing…
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: …and it was a horrifying event. It changed the trajectory of my life for sure.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And I actually wrote a piece about that, how I stopped calling myself evangelical after that. It was like the most-read article on Religion News Service that year. So like, this is a big deal and I haven't really heard you talk about that element as much, but I wrote in my piece, which we’ll link how I just thought, I can't sing to this monstrous God.
Krispin: Uhhuh.
Danielle: You know, it's the first time I really allowed myself to say that.
Krispin: I think it, what was, I think there's that piece of like processing, like is this a monster God? But I think for me too, especially as an Enneagram nine who like wants to keep the peace and see everyone's perspective, just recognizing like, oh, there's this line here that I've been told not to cross, which is like, you cannot say this is not of God or like you are not, you know, like you have to always give every other Christian…
Danielle: Judge other Christians, really.
Krispin: …the benefit of the doubt.
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: And what's interesting is like this idea of like, well, we, you know, let's wait and see, or like let's kind of, there's not, it's not even like, let's look at the positives and negatives. It is like if you bring up any negatives then you are doing something wrong.
Danielle: Yes! And shamed for it.
Krispin: Right.
Danielle: And so I have been shamed a lot recently and in very interesting ways. People try and use like my mental health to shame even, which is fascinating. Um, but I'm just like, dude, I don't care anymore.
Krispin: Mm. Uhhuh.
Danielle: Like I am allowed to judge. I am allowed to notice patterns. I am allowed to research history.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And I wanna use sources well. I, that's why I go into these deep dives and spend hundreds of hours and…
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: …you know, I've written so many thousands of words on Lonnie Frisbee.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: I just, like, a few days ago I told you it was like, I could probably write a biography on him at this point.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: ‘Cause again, people are not investing in him and his story, so there's not a ton out there. And, and I'm just like, I don't need to. Krispin, what'd you tell me?
Krispin: It, well, it’s…
Danielle: You were like, no. (LAUGHTER)
Krispin: It does remind me. I, I was thinking about this for, you're talking about like, you can judge. Um, I was thinking about this interaction I had with someone recent, like within the last year. Uh, it wasn't that recent, but I was criticizing, uh, local church Imago Dei for, uh, for something for being horrible, for being homophobic.
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: Um, and someone reached out and was like, hey, um, like, you're really not promoting unity. Um, why? Like…
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: I understand there are things to critique, but why are you judging this, this church?
Danielle: Like why are you wasting your energy on judging the church?
Krispin: Right? And I said, well, I, I just follow in the way of Jesus who like continually criticized the religious establishment So like…
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: I think like even if, if you are in that Christian faith tradition, I think that there's room to say, actually, like Jesus didn't say like, all right, we'll just give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Like you can look at those like, woe to you passages.
Danielle: Love the woes. You know I love the woes.
Krispin: Exactly, right. And I'm like, I think that…
Danielle: But we aren't Jesus. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Which is why we can't?
Danielle: Well, no, I'm just saying like it to me, I used to, I was where exactly what you're describing. I was in that space for at least 10 years.
Krispin: Uhhuh.
Danielle: And now I'm out of that space, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And I still think by appealing to Jesus, like we are trying to legitimize our own like intuitions in a way.
Krispin: Yeah, that’s true. You don’t have to be Jesus and you cant.
Danielle: And I'm saying you can judge, you don't have to based off of, yes, you can judge based off of Jesus's words, which you will have tons of fodder for as we have done.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And you can also judge outside of that too, you know? And I just think sometimes when people hear me and I'm so intense and I say these really intense things, they think I'm trying to convince them And, and I wanna say like, I don't want to make everyone think like me. And maybe in the past I have, but I am allowed to be honest about what I am seeing and noticing and experiencing and helping. Like the reason I research Lonnie Frisbee, the reason I'm researching the Jesus movement, is because I'm trying to make sense of my life, what I gave my life to and how messed up white evangelicalism truly is. You know? And so like, you can think differently from me. You can do all that. And I honestly think I'm getting to a place where I'm like, yeah, that's good, you know?
Krispin: Uhhuh.
Danielle: Like, don't just believe what I say, like, um, but…
Krispin: Right, ‘cause you spent, what, over 10 years trying to convince evangelicals to see things differently from like an ethical place.
Danielle: Or just to be like, hey, this doesn't seem to match up with Jesus in the Scriptures.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And you know, they don't care. They would rather watch a movie about the Jesus movement than actually engage with, you know, the historical Jesus. Which is fascinating ‘cause the character who plays Jesus in The Chosen, you know, actually plays Lonnie Frisbee in The Jesus Revolution movie.
Krispin: Oh my gosh. I heard that there was connections, but I didn’t know that.
Danielle: Isn’t that interesting? And he seems to have no problem with the erasure of Lonnie's actual life. And, and also it's kind of weird because Lonnie was very young when this all happened, and the actor playing him was not young. And Zach, when he was messaging me, he was saying like, so maybe people watching the movie won't even know like Lonnie was a really young man, like, and…
Krispin: Oh.
Danielle: …when he died even and stuff, you know.
Krispin: Interesting.
Danielle: Because like you see this older character and then it's like, oh, he died, you know, 20 years later or whatever.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: It's like, well, he was really young. He was 43 years old when he died of AIDS, and he died on my birthday, March 12th.
Krispin: Wow.
Danielle: So…
Krispin: Yeah, wrapping up…
Danielle: Sorry.
Krispin: We talked, uh, no, we, we, we talked a little bit about Asbury Revival here. We talked about it on our latest Patreon episode.
Danielle: MM-hmm.
Krispin: And a lot more about like worship services…
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: …and what it's like to be in those spaces, which I feel like, you know…
Danielle: This is obviously a part of this discussion.
Krispin: Right.
Danielle: Because the music is so important to the propaganda.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: Right? Yeah, exactly. And I think it brings up those same things of like, I mean, I think - I think this is an untouched, uh, generally untouched topic. Because we've talked about like some toxic theology, we've talked about those sorts of things, we've talked about like why Wayne Grudem’s systematic theology, and yet he can support Trump as like problematic. But like being in spaces and worship service spaces and like having this explicit message of like, God is at work here and not being able to question that…
Danielle: This is good. You can't question it.
Krispin: Right. Um, I think it's another part of the conversation that we got into over there. So just wanted to mention that if y'all want to listen or join as a Patreon, um, this is a huge topic and, um, yeah, I, I think like the Jesus movement, you know, obviously like we're talking about Vineyard, we're talking about, um, Calvary Chapel, like led into the charismatic church service movement stuff. Like it's just all connected.
Danielle: And to Jesus Freak. So DC Talk was like the younger version in the ‘90s, like, let's sound like Kurt Cobain and let's just…
Krispin: Right, the same…
Danielle: Exactly.
Krispin: …like here are the aesthetics.
Danielle: here are the aesthetics. And this time they're like, let's make it slightly racially diverse. (LAUGHTER)
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Which is also, I think, part of the aesthetic.
Danielle: Yeah, of course. It's totally. And so I'm like, it's all connected, y'all. Conspiracy brain. Um, you know what I was doing while you were talking?
Krispin: Watching…
Danielle: I was trolling Greg Laurie's livestream.
Krispin: What were you doing?
Danielle: I said - I had to sign up and make an account, and then I said, why did Greg Laurie write a book all about himself and then make a movie all about himself? Seems pretty narcissistic to me. So, we'll see how it goes.
Krispin: It's funny you talk and talk and I'm like trying to process it all.
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: And I'm talking and talking and you're like, I'm listening. And I'm also like commenting on Greg Laurie.
Danielle: (LAUGHTER) It's my years of multitasking coming in.
Krispin: The ways our different brains work. (LAUGHTER) So we are gonna be back on the Jesus Freak beat, but it just felt really relevant, um, because yeah, Jesus Freak really does has a….
Danielle: It didn't come out of nowhere.
Krispin: Right.
Danielle: It claims direct lineage. Lineage to the Jesus movement. And yeah, I think it's really important to just assess how these stories are being told
And I guess I, I tried to deal with that by delving into the actual life of Lonnie Frisbee.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think, um, this counterculture that's actually just culture is just like, I just am seeing it everywhere.
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: You know, like this idea of like, we're counterculture, but actually we just have these like, you know, white, middle-class American values.
Danielle: Didn't you just hear of a church called the Counterculture Church?
Krispin: Yes. So I don't want to name names, but I'm gonna name names.
Danielle: Okay. Yeah.
Krispin: Because the church, yeah, I was getting these Facebook ads.
Danielle: They think you're such a Christian.
Krispin: Yes, for yeah. Whatever reason I was getting these Facebook. No, they know. They're trying to get me back.
Danielle: Oh my. Okay.
Krispin: And so, um, this church that isn't open yet but is launching, has some launch events is called Counterculture Church.
Danielle: Sounds great, Krispin.
Krispin: And it is a couple that felt called by God to move from Phoenix, Arizona…
Danielle: Okay. Yes.
Krispin: …to Portland to plant a counterculture church.
Danielle: Yes.
Krispin: Which I think is, uh…
Danielle: Which means homophobic.
Krispin: Yes. Right. No, I think it is. Um, it's but I mean it, it's Mark Driscoll all over again, right? It's like we are real punk rock because we are going against…
Danielle: Yes.
Krispin: …the alternative culture and going back to the like, uh, you know…
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: …traditional values or whatever. But I think, yeah, we just see this over and over and over again. It's very upsetting to me because I think there's an element of, um, gaslighting.
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: Of saying like, hey, like we are the actual counterculture. But it's actually just like, it's not counterculture it’s culture.
Danielle: No, it's not at all. Yeah.
Krispin: Anyway, we'll stop rambling. We will be back soon. Um, our next episode is gonna be with Semler.
Danielle: Oh my God.
Krispin: Um, we talked to Grace Baldridge. Um, so I, in preparation for that, um, you know, listen to some Semler music. We'll put a link in the show notes. Uh, make sure to listen to the, their song TobyMac.
Danielle: Oh yeah. Mm-hmm.
Krispin: Um, Cause it fits. So anyway, we will be back soon. Thanks y'all for listening.
Danielle: Thanks for listening.
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