I Kissed Christian Romance Goodbye
Join us for the final episode of season 8! Krispin and Danielle talk about the classic purity culture read, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, Boy Meets Girl and When God Writes Your Love Story.
Krispin mentions Emotionally Focused Therapy—find more about that here.
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Cover art by Zech Bard.
TRANSCRIPT
Krispin: [00:00:00] Hey, it is the last episode of our Christian romance season.
Danielle: Yeah. We just decided that.
Krispin: It snuck up on us.
Danielle: Yes, it did. I can't even remember when we started this season.
Krispin: I think it was April.
Danielle: So it’s not been that long, but I was recording interviews before. It's just like, we could literally keep doing this for a long time, but I do think it’d get more niche.
Like when I first started doing this series, I really wanted to talk about like the Gates of Zion series, the antisemitism, the revisionist history of Bodie Thoene and that, and like, as I got into the thick of it, I was trying to read these really long novels. I was like, nobody cares, Danielle. I mean, I think they're really important that they've shaped like white Christian women's views on Israel, the nation state of Israel, but like, nobody wants to hear me talk about that.
So we're scraping all that, um, life is chaotic over here. It's, it's been like the longest [00:01:00] streak of over 95-degree days in Portland history, which makes podcasting in an un-air-conditioned house really difficult. And so we just thought we've put out a lot of great episodes. Krispin’s going to have the reigns for this one.
And, um, and we're gonna end it there. Um, because we have a really fun season we'll be working on for the fall and winter. So we'll take at least a four week break. Thank you to everyone who supports this podcast. Um, both by listening, sharing about it, reviewing it, rating all that, but of course, the patrons that allow us to, to keep going and, um, I'm in like deep burnout and this is like the only thing I've been able to do.
So I'm grateful for that. And also like, if you miss us, if you miss our voices for the next month or so, just become a patron, it's like $1.50 and you can listen to all our patron only episodes where we jabber. And I thought the last one we did was, I don't know. I felt kind of proud of it, so yeah.
And we're getting really good [00:02:00] feedback on it. So I just wanna say that really quick. I'm sorry if we didn't get to your favorite Christian romance books. Um, I'm too depressed to do it. So just being honest.
Krispin: Tweet, tweet at us, your favorite Christian romance book that we missed and we will retweet it and see who else out there, like has something to say about it.
Danielle: I mean, I enjoy talking with Erin Moon so much. Like she really matched my energy in some ways, and I'm, at some point- and Devi, I love talking to Devi. So I'm always like who can I do a Christy Miller series recap podcast with? Cause that would be so fun to go through each book.
Um, I mean that'll bring in the money, won't it, Krispin? I'm sure it will. What a good side gig, but for some reason nobody wants to do it. I mean, we're all so we're so, so busy.
Krispin: People would sign up to listen to you, Erin and or [00:03:00] Devi to talk about it.
Danielle: I mean, that's the thing, when we're talking about Christian romance, Christian purity culture, there's like a never-ending supply of content.
So we gotta cut it off somewhere. So we're cutting it off with the Krispin spectacular episode. Do you wanna tell us real quick what books you're gonna be talking to me about today?
Krispin: Yes. So I'm gonna be talking about, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, which is, you know,
Danielle: The OG.
Krispin: Right? Yeah. By and large, the, the, you know, the most well-known.
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: Um, but then there was Boy Meets Girl: Hello to Courtship, also by him.
Danielle: I've never heard of Hello to Courtship to be perfectly honest.
Krispin: Well, no, no. It's called Boy Meets Girl, subtitle, Hello to Courtship.
Danielle: Oh, okay. Okay.
Krispin: Just to like, I, I feel like it's like, you gotta add it. If, if it's a sequel to I Kissed Dating Goodbye, I feel like you have to add the subtitle, I Kissed Dating Goodbye: Hello to Courtship.
Danielle: Josh Harris.
Krispin: Yeah. [00:04:00] Danielle, I just, I know we're getting ahead of ourselves, but I so badly wanted to court when I was a teenager.
Danielle: Okay.
Krispin: Um, then there's also when God-
Danielle: I did not just because I was like, no, no, man is worthy of courting me.
Krispin: Yes. I was like, I wanted to be courted. I don't think that's the way it works.
Danielle: Is that what I did to you?
Krispin: Uh, I don't know, maybe.
Danielle: Oh,
Krispin: Um,
Danielle: Interesting.
Krispin: Um, and then, When God Writes Your Love Story.
Danielle: Such a Krispin title, if I'm being perfectly honest. You're not saying any of the authors, do you not wanna say their names or what's-
Krispin: Harris wrote the first two and then Eric and Leslie Ludy wrote the second two. And, and it's worth mentioning that Eric and Leslie are mentioned in I Kissed Dating Goodbye.
They were role models to Josh Harris.
Danielle: Oh shocking.
Krispin: But I loved these books. I was not allowed to like, not, not like it wasn't, not like I wasn't allowed to read Christy [00:05:00] Miller, but it wasn't like, oh, you're a teenage boy. Like, and I lived in China.
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: So all the content I got was like our church from the states with like mail us stuff.
Danielle: They mailed you books?
Krispin: Books and
Danielle: Cause you guys were missionaries, just for people who didn't know.
Krispin: Yes. Right. Frank Peretti books, you know, CDs, et cetera. Um, and so it was sort of like whatever they thought I would like generally. So, you know, obviously they're not gonna be like, oh, Christy Miller books. That being said, my sister had them as we discussed in the last episode.
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: I loved reading these books because they were so romantic, like in
Danielle: Not really dear listeners, they're not really romantic at all. But yeah.
Krispin: The whole point of them is to tell you, the, the whole goal of these books is to tell you how to be a good Christian and how to get hitched the right way.
Danielle: Okay. Here's the deal. Do you think they're romantic in that like repressed, longing?
Krispin: Yeah, totally. I mean,
Danielle: Cause you love Jane Austin,
Krispin: I, yes, totally.[00:06:00]
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: I mean like the, the beginning of Boy Meets Girl, Josh Harris is talking about like, he's working at his church, and then Shannon across the street is working at her job, and he would watch her leave her office every day from his window, right? Yeah. Watch her get into her car and he's thinking, oh, like she's just, she's outta my league.
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: Little did he know that she was breaking down in tears every day of loneliness at the end of the day. Just at like pleading to God to bring her a husband.
Danielle: Oh, wow.
Krispin: So, but like, I just ate that up. Right. Like I just loved it.
Danielle: I wonder if anybody else read these books as like truly romance stories? I mean, they must have, I obviously didn't.
Krispin: I mean, here's the other, so this is from When God Writes Your Love Story. This is from Leslie, the, uh, female partner in [00:07:00] this relationship. “It was our honeymoon by far the most incredible two weeks of my life after waiting for what seemed like an eternity.
I was finally Mrs. Eric Ludy.”
Danielle: Oh, I thought she was gonna talk about sex.
Krispin: Just wait. Oh no, she's not. “And just when I thought I discovered the depths of Eric's love for me,” maybe that's a reference to sex. “He took it to a yet deeper level.
“See all these letters, he said flipping through page after page of notebook paper, I wrote these to you years before we ever met.
I've been saving them for a honeymoon.”
Danielle: That's what Christy Miller did. Yeah. For Todd.
Krispin: Uhhuh. Wait, what do you mean?
Danielle: She wrote letters to her future husband and gave them to Todd on their wedding night.
Krispin: I wonder which came out first.
Danielle: Oh, well they're all Focus on the Family people.
Krispin: Yeah. And that's the whole idea is like, think about it. Like your future spouse is out there right now. Like what are they doing?
Danielle: We’re not shaming people did this. Okay. Lots of [00:08:00] people did this.
Krispin: Right. In fact, like we should pause here. I just wanted to talk about what was romantic for me. Right. That's totally something I
Danielle: How come you didn't do that to me?
Krispin: I know. Right. I mean, that's the thing is that I was so offended. I was so romantic. And you were like, uh, no.
Danielle: Oh my gosh. Do you remember all those picnics you tried to take me on? Krispin was always playing iron and wine for me, like taking me on picnics and just like gazing at me,
Krispin: I wrote you poetry. Yeah,
Danielle: You, okay. I'm just gonna out myself here as a terrible person. Now we understand, right, we understand a little bit, right? Neurodivergence. Hey yo. Um, but like I thought your picnics were so boring. I was like, what are we gonna talk about?
You know, first and second Kings, which we're learning about in our Bible college, where we met, you know, and then. You, for my birthday, cause I said I didn't want anything. Was this my first birthday that we were dating?
Krispin: Married. We were married. [00:09:00]
Danielle: And I was like, oh, I don't need presents because I'm basically Shane Claiborne. And like I don't
Krispin: Yeah. And we were like really poor.
Danielle: We were really poor. Yeah. So Krispin got me a journal and which was moleskin, which yes, that's what writers had. Right? Is moleskin. Then, yeah. Explain what you did.
Krispin: I wrote you like three poems and put them in the journal.
Danielle: First three pages were three poems he wrote for me.
Krispin: Mm-hmm like love poems.
Danielle: And I got that journal for my birthday. Kind of looked at the three poems. I was like, okay. And I was like, okay, where's the rest of my presents? And you were like, you said you didn't want any and I wrote you poems and I was like, what?
Krispin: I got you flowers too.
Danielle: Flowers too, which I also don't care about. Yeah. At all.
Krispin: That's the thing. I was like, I am like the perfect romantic guy.
Danielle: You really are. And unfortunately, um, I don't like those kind of romantic things, you know, there's things I do like, [00:10:00] but most of it we can't talk about on a public podcast. And so anyways, I think it's funny to go back and look at these things, especially the, just the different personality types.
And we've already talked about this a little bit, but like these books are written to a pretty specific type of person and also like, prescribing that towards everyone. Can I tell you my Josh Harris stories really quick? Cause Josh Harris is gonna be way more well-known than Eric and Leslie Ludy.
I mean to you, Eric and Leslie Ludy are like a big deal, but probably most people know of I Kissed Dating Goodbye by Josh Harris. So my family knew of Josh Harris's church, which was here in Oregon. I didn’t live in Oregon at the time. But like when we would travel through, we like would go to Josh Harris's church, cause his dad was like big in the homeschool movement.
You know, me and my sisters were homeschooled. I remember my parents freaked out cause my sister Lindsay wore a skirt that was too short when we went to this homeschool church, you know.
Krispin: To their church?
Danielle: To Josh Harris' church. Yes. And [00:11:00] so then, um, fast forward, a few years later, I dropped out of my first Bible college.
My parents ended up moving to Gresham, Oregon, close to where we live now. And I worked at Starbucks after I dropped out. I moved back in with my parents, worked at Starbucks, and Josh Harris's dad would come in every day. And he wasn't like rude, but he was very much like an entitled white man.
You know, he would bring his Bible, bring all his studies in, get a cup of coffee. He would move the one comfortable chair in the Starbucks, like an overstuffed chair. He'd like move it to where he wanted it to be every day and then never move it back. You know, all that stuff.
Krispin: Greg? Greg. I know because I'm holding the book right now and it's dedicated to my parents, Greg and I can’t read what her name is.
Danielle: Now, you know what Josh Harris's dad does? Greg Harris, because guess what? It's not profitable to be a super conservative Christian who runs a homeschool movement in a church. You know what he does now?
Krispin: What?
Danielle: He owns a terrarium shop here in [00:12:00] Portland.
Krispin: Really? How do you know this?
Danielle: Just Google it. You can go and you can create terrariums at his hipster terrarium building shop. Josh Harris’ dad, here in Portland. Yeah, they have classes. Um, you know, they all, all the supplies. Uh, yeah, so that's my tidbit, those are my connections.
And when I read I Kissed Dating Goodbye, I was just like, no, I don't. Cause like the way those books kind of set it up is that men are the leaders. Men are whatever. And I would just look around at like the youth groups, the college groups, the Bible colleges. And I was just like, these boys are dip shits. If I'm being perfectly honest, cause they were, I mean, am I wrong?
Krispin? And so I was just like no, thank you.
And I just did the more traditional route of, it's not like I didn't have any romantic desire, but I would say I'm definitely on the lower end, right, [00:13:00] of that spectrum. So I did the classic thing of I was only into like super mean guys that would never like me back because, that way I didn't have to actually worry about courting and all that, you know?
Krispin: Right.
Danielle: Yeah. So that's what I did. What'd you do Krispin?
Krispin: I,
Danielle: We're gonna get into it.
Krispin: I just had a crush on every single girl, single girl that I saw all the time. Yeah.
Danielle: They didn't have to be mean? You liked 'em all?
Krispin: I liked them all. Um, and I feel like before we get into like the meat of these books, we need a trigger warning.
Danielle: Okay.
Krispin: Uh, lots of purity culture stuff. Um, Lots of like shaming people. Um, and, and also like, I, I like this is like, people have so many different experiences. And like you said, with, in your interview with Devi, like we actually, you especially, are like the purity culture, like poster child. So like there's a part of me that's like, you know, I hope we don't say [00:14:00] anything stupid. Um, we'll try to cut it if we do. Um, but I think this is like really important to say.
Danielle: And also we're just talking about our own experiences, right? Yeah. And not prescribing that to other people.
Krispin: Exactly. Yeah. So there are people that, um, that probably like resonated with these books and, um, but yeah, they're, they're like very patriarchal for sure.
Um, and really like the heart of it is, as I understand it, like what I really walked away from this is that if you are romantically engaged with someone, and then you marry someone else, you are a rotten mango.
Danielle: Ugh.
Krispin: That is like literally one of the, like they look healthy on the outside but they are rotten on the inside.
Um, I'm just gonna read one more passage that gives like a good picture of this. Like, I feel like this summarizes the book. So this is the first chapter, the [00:15:00] very beginning of I Kissed Dating Goodbye.
Danielle: Okay.
Krispin: Okay. “It was finally here. Anna's wedding day, the day she had dreamed about and planned for, for months, the small, picturesque church was crowded with friends and family. Joy surged within her.
This was a moment for which she had waited for so long. David gently took her hand, and they turned toward the aisle. But as the minister began to lead Anna and David through their vows, the unthinkable happened. A girl stood up in the middle of the congregation and walked quietly to the altar and took David's other hand.
Another girl approached and stood next to the first, followed by another, a chain of six girls stood by him as he repeated his vows to Anna. Anna felt her lip begin to quiver as tears welled up in her eyes. Is this some kind of joke? She whispered to David. I'm sorry, Anna, he said, staring at the floor. Who are these girls?
David what's going on? She gasped. They’re girls from my past. [00:16:00] They don't mean anything to me now, but I've given a part of my heart to each of them. I thought your heart was mine, she said. It is, it is, he pleaded, everything that's left is yours. A tear rolled down Anna's cheek. Then she woke up from the dream.”
Danielle: Whoa.
Krispin: That is the beginning of I Kissed Dating Goodbye. And this whole premise is like, if you become emotionally involved with someone who is not your forever partner, then you, there's something irreparable about that.
Danielle: Right, I heard, I heard the phrase, like soul ties or something like that.
Krispin: Yeah. Right. And what's, I think like, I, I, I don't like the idea of like, if you have sex with someone that you lose a part of yourself or you're tainted or whatever, like that's terrible in and of itself.
And this is a step beyond, this is like, any sort of like emotional, like engagement, [00:17:00]attachment, right, with that person means that you are tainted for your future wedding. This is from When God Writes Your Love Story. “Six months before our wedding, Leslie made a statement to me that made me shudder. She simply said, Eric, I wish you had never had a desire for another girl in your entire life .”
Danielle: Well that's really controlling.
Krispin: Yes. Right.
Danielle: Right?
Krispin: I'm like, and also like, it’s just really immature, right? It's really immature. Like this is like jealousy, there's this Julia Michaels song that I was trying to talk to you about the other day where she says, like, I wish all your exes were dead. Like I wish there were no exes at all.
Like I was the only girl you ever cared about. And you're like, that is, I mean, that, that is a, like, what would that mean? If you met someone when you were 25 and they were like, oh, actually I've never had any like romantic or sexual feelings for anybody else. You'd be like, yeah. That's like, that probably means [00:18:00] that you're like demi or something like that.
But that is not like, that is not the experience of most people. Right? And to say like, this is kind of saying, like, you should not have romantic feelings for people. You should not have sexual feelings.
Danielle: Yeah. And I think it's important just to say here, like all of this catter walling, gibberish, you know, it's like, it's not coming outta nowhere.
It's, it's to accomplish a specific aim. And do you want to explain what that aim is? Or do you not know what the aim is?
Krispin: I, I, what do you think the aim is?
Danielle: Because the thing about Josh Harris, and you sometimes, I'm like, I think you're too in the weeds on it almost because you're a man who was like super impacted by purity culture, which definitely happens. Um, and Josh Harris, I think was also in the thick of it.
Like, I think he was truly, I mean, he was 19 freaking years old. Right? And so he's just his brain’s not developed, like [00:19:00] all of this. The true aim of these books is like to uphold a patriarchal framework where women remain virgins until they're married. Right?
Krispin: Right.
Danielle: And that, again,
Krispin: But I was like, am I missing something?
Danielle: Same thing with Christy Miller. It's like creating a theology that shepherds a woman to be under her dad and pastor's care to under her husband and pastor's care, um, with no break in between. That's literally like courtship and, you know, all kinda like legal guardianship, ownership. And so it's fascinating that Josh Harris is sort of like kind of talking about male purity so it doesn't seem quite so patriarchal. It's like, we're really shaming the men here now for doing, you know, but I'm like the end goal is just the same.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Women virgins and, and men too, as, because that way it makes it equal.
I mean, you know what I mean?
Krispin: Right. I mean, listen to this, Eric Ludy says this, “My whole life, I had wanted my future spouse to do [00:20:00] me the favor of staying pure. Give me a little respect and prove to me that I'm the love of her life. Which means, like not kissing other men, not going on dates with other men, being a one-man woman. Why would I go through all the trouble of denying my desires for so many years if the person I'm doing it for isn't doing the same for me, what a waste.”
Danielle: What a waste?
Krispin: So it's like this idea of like, yeah, women should stay pure. And then it's like, oh, well, if you're expecting that of the woman you're gonna marry someday. Like this, is the context of like, oh, God told me I need to do the same for her.
But just all this patriarchal stuff of like, just kinda this idea of like, well, I'm thinking about, you know, my future wife is out there and is she sitting with someone in a, in a car, some dark place. Like he better not be kissing her with his big lips on my future wife. Like just this.
Danielle: Wait, he says that?
Krispin: Yeah. It is, it is so cringey.
Danielle: [00:21:00] And creepy.
Krispin: Yeah. I mean, Joshua Harris, one of his rules about, um, why dating is bad is you can't own somebody outside of marriage.
Danielle: What?
Krispin: He says that, that is one of the headings. You cannot own someone outside of marriage. Implicitly. You can
Danielle: I'm short circuiting but yeah. Okay.
Krispin: I know. Right? You did say you were like, what is gonna happen to me when we, when we have this conversation?
So you're right. It is like this setting up, but I think, um, I, that's what I was trying to figure out like, is it, is, it really is just about like the desirability of you, depending on like how many partners you've had. And I don't mean sexual partners. I just mean like romantic partners. Right. And the goal stated in the book is that, um, “When two people have saved themselves completely inwardly, outwardly, emotionally, and physically coming together to love each other for a lifetime, [00:22:00] with the purest, most uninhibited love imaginable. This is romance in its truest form. This is God's perfect design for you.” So it's this idea of like,
Danielle: Based off of what?
Krispin: I know, right?
Well also I think it really, I, I think we've seen this, where there's this idea of like, if you can stay pure before marriage, that sets you up well for marriage, and as a couple's therapist, I will say that those two things do not go together.
Danielle: Right. And there are things you can do, right. To set yourself up for a good marriage, good relationship. But that is not an indicator. In any metric.
Krispin: Right? I mean, that's the thing that I thought about is like, so the idea here, you know, Eric commits his life to God. At some point, Eric Ludy says like, I'm not gonna date anybody until God tells me, this is the woman that you're supposed to date, [00:23:00] which is hearkens back to Redeeming Love stuff.
I, I hear that. And I think of all the abusive men in evangelicalism that have told women, like God told me to marry you and made them question their internal experience of whether he’s safe or not.
Danielle: I mean, we literally know people, right? Who and, and other people get in on this scheme. Right? God told me, God told me this man's gonna be a godly leader, is gonna do great things for God. You should definitely marry him. Even though he has, you know, mental illness that is unmedicated, you know, we know people very close to us, multiple people, right, who have gotten into marriages with men because of these kinds of message I don't wanna say toxic, abusive marriages.
Krispin: Yeah. And the idea of like, well, I'm not, I can't [00:24:00] emotionally engage with this person until I know for sure. I'm going to marry them means that you have to make that decision upfront.
And you don't actually get to decide if this person is a healthy person based on being in a relationship with them.
And I think that's, I just watched, uh, season two of Parks and Rec and I think a good example is there's this guy, Justin, that everybody loves, right. And he starts dating Leslie, but Leslie finds out like, yeah, like he seems like a good guy. He's sort of charismatic. He's sort of narcissistic, but everybody loves him.
But then actually being in a relationship with that person, like they're not actually caring, they're not actually attuned to you. And I think that like is just a good illustration of what happens for a lot of people where it's like, yeah, they might seem, you know, this is like the dude that's like, I'm in church leadership.
Like, you know, I love holding power. I mean, I'm really godly and spiritual, right. And then you get into it and you're like, oh, [00:25:00] actually this is not an emotionally safe person, but this is the person that God told me to marry or that I'm committed to, or like it really, really discourages you from trusting your own intuition about what is safe for you and what a healthy relationship is like.
Danielle: Well, I think that can get kind of complicated because you're saying like, this puts tons of pressure on people who took this stuff seriously. To be like, I meet a cute guy at church or a Bible college or somewhere, he's a Christian. Should I go pray and see if like this could be my future husband? And if God says, yes, then I can start to sort of pursue this person romantically.
That's kinda what you're saying. And so it's putting a lot of pressure. Like every interaction, every relationship is through this prism of did God tell me this is the one, this is the one that I'm gonna marry. And I'm like, I don't feel like I really grew up with that because it just didn't seem possible for me to find a spouse as I wanted to be a missionary, you know.
And then when I met [00:26:00] you, I just thought you were so nice. You know, I was physically attracted to you, which I wasn't to very many people. And,
Krispin: I'm the person where you don't have any exes.
Danielle: I, I know I'm like, again, like I'm the weird, but I remember I'm the one who told you, like, I don't even know if I said we're gonna get married. I said, I am going to have your babies. Which is also really weird, cuz I never wanted to have children really. And then I just told you that when we were driving down the road and, but I'm like, I kind of think it was my intuition, you know, or whatever we wanna call that. Which is just like, this is a quality person who I really like being around mm-hmm and would like to snuggle with a lot, you know, like that was just it for me. And then I don't think I really over spiritualized it, but I over spiritualized everything else, which is like, I can't even look at anybody cause I'm [00:27:00] on a mission for God and they're not.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: That's why I'm like, I got the positives out of purity culture and I feel really guilty about that because I did not date really stupid, really horrible men.
um, but you're saying this can also go in these opposite directions, these toxic directions right?
Krispin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And it, yeah, it puts so much pressure. You and Erin talked about that in your episode about just, yeah. And, and there is this part in the book in, I kissed Dating goodbye where Josh Harris says like, yeah, like we are Christians, there's no room for wasting time for unintentionality.
Like
Danielle: That’s how I live my life.
Krispin: I know. Right. Mm-hmm.
Danielle: When you're 19, but it does not make sense when you're 38 as both me and Josh Harris are evidence of, right? Yeah. I am publicly deconstructing.
Krispin: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. wait We should, we should put a spoiler warning about what happens between Shannon [00:28:00] and Josh later.
Danielle: I was just gonna say like, I'm publicly deconstructing on Twitter currently. Uh, everything.
Krispin: Right.
Danielle: Um, Josh's on a similar journey. Um, so yeah, that's very interesting Okay. So. Do you wanna talk about like where Eric and Leslie Ludy are now and where Josh Harris is now? Or am I
Krispin: I don't know where Eric and Leslie Ludy are, like I,
Danielle: Yes you do. Don't they have a website with videos and everything?
Krispin: Oh yes, they do. Oh my gosh. I forgot about that.
Well, that's the thing. Okay. So yeah. And it's about these gender roles.
Danielle: They're still making money, still profiting, still squarely in the fold.
Krispin: And that's what I think is like, so like what I hear within this.
If you do these things, if you fulfill these specific roles, then your marriage will go well. So part of it is like not having sex before you're married, but part of it is like, if you are a manly man, and you [00:29:00] are a womanly woman, you know, a womanly woman, then that's what creates for a good marriage.
Right? And it's sort of this idea of like, you just fall, you just go into your role and then there won't be speed bumps. Right. And that there's so much in evangelicalism about that. And there's no, like, within there, there's no, like how do I pay attention to my own feelings so that I can express them to my partner so that we can work through problems?
Right. Like, and I remember when you were, I think evidence of this. When we got engaged, you were, you were very sad. Because you were like, this is really hard. Marriage is really hard. And it's because you had all these friends that were like, that, you know, got married with this assumption of like, well, if I'm a Christian, if I'm a good Christian, then my marriage will go well.
And it did not go well. Right. Because we actually
Danielle: That's not why I was depressed. Because our friends' marriages hadn't [00:30:00] started falling apart by then. I had literally just taken all the sermons about marriage inside the church literally. And every single one of them by a man said, marriage is hard work.
And to me looking back, it's like, yeah, if you're in an unhappy marriage it is a lot of work, especially for the woman.
Krispin: Mm-hmm
Danielle: And that's why the, the pastors had to keep saying over and over again, if you feel like you're in a hard marriage, like that's correct. And that's God's will for you and that's to keep women in abuse, yeah.
In an abusive marriage. So, so I was just taking it all, literally this, this is literally what you hear all the time in these churches was marriage is hard work. And
Krispin: Mm-hmm yeah
Danielle: Luckily,
um, you know, good marriage, isn't hard work. I mean, there's obviously periods in time, but, um, nothing like I was prepared for. So
Krispin: I just think these books really tell you nothing about preparing for a healthy relationship with another partner.
Danielle: Is that why you became an attachment therapist who focuses on couples?[00:31:00]
Krispin: Yes. To, to right the wrongs of the
Danielle: Well, I know, I'm being serious. Uh, like I think it's fascinating that you're like, I just didn't ever hear anybody talk about this stuff, you know,
Krispin: Mm-hmm yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, that's part of it. Like part of it is I had to learn
Danielle: Because you're really into emotion,
Krispin: Emotionally focused therapy,
Danielle: It, you know, does couples work and we've done it as a couple. And it was so helpful for me and you know, me I can be very skeptical at therapy.
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah.
Danielle: And it was so helpful. So maybe we should just throw that out there as a resource for people.
If you know, if you're coming out of these things and you took it super seriously, there's gonna be a lot of people who found themselves in relationships that are not healthy. And, you know.
Lots of lots of failed relationships and no community, right. To support you as you figure out that work. And there's tons of people in that spot and we honor those people and the hard work you [00:32:00] have.
So yeah. I don't know if you wanna give, we can give a few resources to the show notes or you can even mention them too.
Krispin: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love the emotionally focused therapy community. They do really good work and there probably is a center near you.
Danielle: So look up EFT counselors.
Krispin: And I'll put that in the show notes too. Yeah. Um, yeah. I wanna go back to like this. The upholding the patriarchy, cause something just dawned on me. One thing is there's, there's so much parent involvement. Um, one one of the stories Josh Harris talks about is this couple that were doing really well.
He says their parents were intimately involved in every decision about their relationship. Right. And I, I think I was like, okay, well that
Danielle: That's a red flag alert.
Krispin: That feels invasive, that's red flag. But yeah, there's this, you know, this idea of like your parents are supposed to, you know, be so a part of it. And I think what it is, is like, uh, you're setting up this patriarchal marriage where the man is going, going to [00:33:00] have power and authority at some point, but now he is just a young man. So he needs to be under the power and authority of parents slash church. And like, it is, uh, it is wild to read, like the names that come up in this book, like Josh
Danielle: People Josh Harris was under?
Krispin: Yeah.
Yeah. He's like, like CJ Mahaney. Yeah. You know, at one point in like the second chapter, he is like one of my favorite preachers, Ravi Zacharias.
Danielle: So basically all these people who are now like known abusers, these books are just sprinkled with these men's names.
Krispin: Right? Yeah.
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: Yeah. And so it makes sense. It's a way of keeping people in the fold.
Danielle: Can I say something really quick? Yeah, because we're talking about when God Writes Your Love Story, Boy Meets Girl, I Kissed Dating Goodbye. Something I think is really interesting. And I've been thinking a bit is a hallmark of sort of growing up in a high control religious environment, which, you know, [00:34:00] evangelicalism totally was and, and publishing, in tandem, right. To put out these materials that would keep people in the fold is that there's usually like something more fundamentalist that you can point to and say, see, I'm not that.
This is like so liberating and actually like so good for you. And so I think a lot about there's this book called like Created To Be His Help Meet by Debbie Pearl. And so people in my community love to be like, oh, that book is so horrible. And like just teaches women how to subjugate themselves to men and it's disgusting.
I threw the book across the room. I hit the wall. Um, anyways, I really love I Kissed Dating Goodbye. And I've been thinking about who I want to court me and, you know, I'm just like, it's fascinating, right? Fundamentalism needs you to say I'm not fundamentalist and here's proof. And so I think that's an important thing.
We're not even really talking about was like, many of [00:35:00] us are like, no, it was fine because we weren't as intense. We weren't quiverfull people or whatever, you know? Right?
Krispin: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And there are people that are listening that were, right.
Danielle: People that grew up in that. Yes. I doubt people who like had 12 kids are listening to our podcast, but I could be wrong.
Krispin: No, and probably a lot of you, like, if you weren't that you knew that family, right? Like you knew that,
Danielle: Oh, I knew a bunch of them.
Krispin: Right.
Danielle: I mean, we lived in Alaska, Wyoming, like quiverfull was the thing.
Krispin: Mm-hmm
Danielle: That means you have 12 kids, for those not in the know, a full quiver of arrows of kids to perpetuate the white Christian faith, any who…
Krispin: Oh yeah. Um, yeah. Oh my gosh. This, rereading this book, especially I Kissed Dating Goodbye, I did a, I did a chunk of writing when I was a teenager and I was like, oh, it's because I wanted to be Josh Harris.
Danielle: Do you have any of those writings?
Krispin: I do,
Danielle: Where are they?
Krispin: Remember my online [00:36:00] magazine? Yeah. It's somewhere.
Danielle: Okay. Here's the deal, guys. Here's the deal. If we get like 20 new patrons for our patron only episode,
Krispin: We'll look at my online magazine.
Danielle: You will read them. We could even do a live event.
Krispin: Okay. Alright.
Danielle: 20 new patrons Krispin will read from his writings. Cause I've never seen them. I'll do a live react.
Krispin: Okay. Oh my gosh.
Danielle: I'm sorry. I'm just getting you
Krispin: Yeah, no, no. I mean, that's,
Danielle: Do you consent?
Krispin: That's the thing. And it, like, I could see it in, you know, my writing and like, I, I want to read this. This is like, so I, I want to pivot here because I actually, I told you I had some anxiety reading this and it wasn't about relationships, cause I've already figured out how to get married.
Danielle: You had what we call the redeeming love moment that I had. Yes. Earlier in
Krispin: Uhhuh,
Danielle: Which it just spiraled. I was spiraling.
Krispin: Yeah.
I like literally like [00:37:00] had some like OCDish like anxiety, like, am I pure enough? Am I good enough? Like, um, And it re like, and I don't know if it was the words that got me or if it was like reading it and then it like brought back these visceral memories.
Um, but, uh, yeah, it, you know, it really, some of it is a, I would say, like, there's so much patriarchy here, but also a huge theme undergirding all of this is like, are you a true Christian? Are you a wimpy Christian or are you a real Christian? Are you, yeah,
Danielle: God lover. That makes you giggle so much,
Krispin: Even if you're single. If, you know, God you're, you still have a love life with the most passionate lover.
Danielle: What did that come from? Didn't you text me that?
Krispin: I did. That was from When God Writes Your Love Story.
Danielle: Good Lord.
Krispin: Yeah. It really impacted me cause there's this theme of like, you [00:38:00] gotta give it all over to God. Right.
Danielle: Like you have no autonomy over your life.
Krispin: Right? Yeah. And these, and you really have to like, if you're gonna really be a Christian, you have to change everything and make sure to get it perfect.
And you know, that sort of thing.
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: And then they'll like these, um, uh, you call that? Um, testimonies, you know, so this is Josh Harris's testimony.
Danielle: Okay.
Oh, I think I know where this is going.
Krispin: So wonderfully cringe.
Danielle: Okay.
Krispin: “By the time I'd reached junior high,”
Danielle: 12
Krispin: Yeah.
Danielle: 12.
Krispin: “I'd embraced a very ungodly attitude towards relationships.
I didn't fear God. Despite my parents' diligent and godly example, I was living for sin in my own pleasure.”
Danielle: Sounds like he's writing this with a gun to his head. If you look back at it, my parents were amazing.
Krispin: Uh, “the fact that I remained a virgin during those years is to [00:39:00] be honest, a miracle. I can easily be brought to tears. When I think about where I'd be today, if God had not chosen to intervene.”
It is just, but I, that was like, seriously, the way that I wrote, like with this drama of like, I mean, I will say this, this is shocking to me in this section. He was like, you know, “I remember one night, like I set up this thing where, uh, I met three girls, uh, you know, at the park and made out with each of them consecutively.”
Danielle: Oh my,
Krispin: I was like, Josh Harris,
Danielle: What a player.
Krispin: like, how does someone pull that off, like anyway.
Danielle: Wow.
Krispin: But it really like, I mean,
Danielle: It must have been at a park in Gresham. We live close to there.
Krispin: But, uh, yeah, there's this whole thing of like desirability. Like if my future spouse was watching me right now, would they be devastated to see what I'm doing?
That I'm giving my heart [00:40:00] away, but he says “what matters far beyond what our future spouse thinks or feels is what our tender savior and gentle Lord Jesus thinks and feels. Does he have wet eyes as he watches our lives with tears? Oh, because we are giving our hearts away.” And that was like this huge theme through all of these books of like, are you watching, Jesus is watching.
Are you being hardcore enough? Are you being sold out enough?
Danielle: Yeah. I definitely had that pressure. Not about relationships, but about everything else.
Krispin: Right. And that was the thing is like, it was like relationships aside, like. I think was a huge driver and yeah. Okay.
Danielle: Was, was it ever enough for Jesus?
Krispin: No. No. Like how could you, like
Danielle: Now ask me that same question.
Krispin: Well, I was gonna say, let, uh, Eric Ludy says, he says, let me just summarize Christianity. Some, uh, “Christianity is me moving out and God moving in. Psychologically, we cannot [00:41:00]move out of ourselves. That is not healthy, but it's also impossible.” Like what the hell does that mean to move out anyway? Yeah, it's impossible.
It is like, this unattainable goal. That's my experience. Danielle, what were you ever able to, um, to meet that goal?
Danielle: No. I tried really hard and I think at some point you have to be there's no end goal, there's no off switch. There's no, it's not like a job that you work nine to five. And then when you go home, you like turn off your job anxiety.
It's like Christian anxiety. If it's about sex, relationships, God's mission in the world, being a good person, saving souls, um, you know, bearing the witness of God, making sure people know that Christianity is good and is the best way to live. Like there's no off switch for that.
Krispin: Right? I mean, and that was the explicit message, right?
Like, I can hear [00:42:00] like Billy Graham in the back of my head, in my ears, like saying, you think you can go to church on Sunday? Like, what are you doing Monday morning and Monday afternoon and Monday evening and two, you know, like just that idea of like, if God is not, what's that saying, if he's not Lord of your whole life, he's not Lord at all.
Danielle: And it's so fascinating cause like we think maybe we're over that kind of stuff with like the church. So we go to a cool church now, but the church we most recently went to, right.
Krispin: Mm-hmm
Danielle: Hipster, Portland, Donald Miller famous church, um, you know, when
Krispin: Don’t get too specific now
Danielle: Um, you can be made in the image of God, but you can't be yourself.
Uh, great, great church. Um, yeah, when we raise real questions about full inclusion, right. Of LGBTQIA people and women, you know, we were just told, you just want an easy gospel, we get it. You wanna, you wanna rest your mind and not always be thinking about God and the [00:43:00] right way to be is basically what they were saying.
And I just wanna be like you mother effers. Like I never stop thinking about God, like ever, which is why I'm bringing these concerns to you. And just to be told like, I get it, you just want an easy way out. And I'm like, I've worked myself to the bone. I've, I'm psychologically decimated and devastated because I never stop thinking about how to be good for God and don't pay attention to myself and, you know,
Krispin: Which is
Danielle: Oh yep, you wanna be, you know? wanna be of the world? I get it. Go have fun. I'm like, I'm not having fun, but fun.
Krispin: Yeah. Speaking of inclusivity, I had this Boy Meets Girl book out on the table and our daughter was like, why can't it be boy meets boy or girl meets girl, or they them meet they them?
I was like, there are specific reasons why it cannot be.
I think
Danielle: They/them meets they/them [00:44:00] is a great title, not clunky at all, but okay.
Krispin: Right.
Danielle: I love our child.
Krispin: Um, I think that that point, like kind of ties all of this together, right? We've been talking about Christian romance, but this whole
Danielle: It's bigger than that. It really is bigger
Krispin: And it really ties back to like every part of your life needs to be tied to how you're following Jesus.
Danielle: Hold every thought captive to Christ.
Right. So it can't even just be your actions. It has to also be your thought life.
Krispin: The whole idea of this book of like, don't be romantically attracted to anyone. Um, and, uh, and I think like, I do think that like our faith should touch every aspect of our life in positive ways.
I think the undergirding message here is like, whatever it is, right? Whatever, like, even if it's like romance relationships, [00:45:00] all these things need to come under the subjugation of white patriarchal evangelical religious authority. I think is the like undergrounding message that we've, that I've like heard this whole time.
Danielle: Were you gonna talk about where these people are at now? Josh Harris?
Krispin: Uh, yeah, I mean, I kind of assume that people know that he's teaching deconstruction classes. That was the last I heard.
Danielle: He got divorced.
Krispin: Yes he got divorced.
Danielle: You were burying the lead Krispin.
Krispin: I thought that feels like old news. Joshua Harris is now divorced. Uh, the Ludys are teaching men how to be men and women, how to be women.
Danielle: Those are kinda like the two paths no, just kidding. We're another path, you know? Sure. We're on a different we're on a different branch off, you know?
Krispin: Yeah. Let me ask you this. What do you think is romantic?
Danielle: Me?
Krispin: Yes.
Danielle: I think that's so hard to classify, but I will say doing this season. [00:46:00] Christian romance has, has caused me to really think about that because for so long, I think I have not been in tune with what I find attractive.
Right. Uh, didn't fit into my narrative of on mission for God. And so I've actually had a lot of fun, like reading romance books.
Krispin: Wait, is this why you asked me, you just asked me to grow a mustache?
Danielle: Yes. I'm like, I think mustaches are. I'm gonna ask Krispin to like shave his beard into a mustache.
Like that's, that's okay if you are into it, you know? And, um, I've enjoyed some reading summer. It it's, I think it's just fun to be like, I like this and I don't like that. And it's not like a moral thing because I don't like a lot of traditional romance, but, um, like I just, if I find a book that I like, I'm like, oh, this is great.
And, and coming back to that, what is like the romance genre about, it's about good things happening to women. And like [00:47:00] it's a nice world to be in where, where nice things happen to women. And so I think that's super great. I think I'm, I'm more on a journey right now of discovering what I find romantic and also really understanding like everybody's different.
And I wish that had just been more apparent to me. And I would say social media, books, all this stuff is it's really great. You can find your place, you know, you can find your place in that and you don't have to feel like, am I the only one who feels like this because I do not find this sexy. Yeah. So this season has been an interesting journey, I think, um, to me, the biggest takeaway, especially from this episode, right?
If we're talking about, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, we're talking about all these prescriptive approaches to dating and like church control over a dating life, right. Is to develop your own personal autonomy, get in touch with what it is you actually find attractive, find romantic, um, and [00:48:00] pay attention to yourself, right?
Not this outside voice telling you that, I don't know. That's sort of, that would sort of be my advice to people. What would you say?
Krispin: Yeah, I think, I, I think that, uh, I think that, um, and I also think that, like the thing, I would also say that the aspects that make a healthy relationship. Like none of this really helps with that. And so, um, if you're noticing like, yeah, what feels healthy to me? Like what feels good to me, um, in a relationship, what feels like emotional safety? Kind of along the same lines, pay attention to that, you know? So, um, I have one last question, speaking of this pressure, right.
To like, be really good and, you know, represent God to the world. What will people think when they hear that you're a Jesus freak?
Danielle: you're going there. You're going there. [00:49:00] Yes. Is the teaser.
Krispin: I, I feel like it ties right in cause that, like I said, that is.
Danielle: Literally an extension of the Christian romance season is that we are taking a break, you know, at least four weeks break because we are working on our next season, season 8, 9?
Okay. Which is gonna be all about DC talk's seminal album, Jesus Freak. We'll be going through it track by track.
Krispin: Eith associated literature cause they wrote a couple of books. Rebecca St. James wrote a book.
Danielle: Yep.
All about being martyrs and Jesus freaks and what a weird time in the nineties, it was Krispin.
And we're gonna, we're gonna visit that.
Krispin: I'm
Danielle: These books go right in line with that. You're
Krispin: Yeah right?
Yeah. Yep.
Danielle: Oh, so stay tuned with us. Thanks for being with us on this journey. I'm sorry. We didn't get to all the things. Um, we just couldn't.
Krispin: Yeah, right. Let us know if there's something [00:50:00] that you're like, did anybody else read this? We'd love to continue the conversation and yeah, we are so excited about Jesus freak, DC talk. Um,
Danielle: Are we though?
Krispin: Danielle's probably gonna have a breakdown.
Danielle: Yeah. You guys ready for the existential crises?
Krispin: We're gonna, we're gonna see if Kevin Max will join us.
Danielle: Yeah. I have a really big, I can't tell you this until we start recording for that podcast, but should I tell you now?
Krispin: Yes.
Danielle: Cause I already said if we get 20 patreons, you have to read from your journals. If we end up getting Kevin Max, who is like the most deconstructed ex evangelical of the trio of DC talk, if we get him on the podcast, I am getting a tattoo on my belly that will say Jesus saves and it'll be green ink.
I'm doing it. If we get him on the podcast.
Krispin: Wow.
Danielle: I’m getting a belly tattoo, cause guess what? I'm my own person. And I don't even have to ask [00:51:00] you if that's okay or not. But I'm doing it. So if you and I won't post pictures of it on the internet, but I will do. So if you guys will see that tag Kevin Max or whatever, I don't know.
How do we get people?
Krispin: I don't know. He follows both of us on Twitter. I think.
Or did at some point, uh, yeah. So excited about that and
Danielle: About my tattoo?
Krispin: I'm so excited. No. We were just talking about paying attention to what you find attractive. Um, But we're gonna keep doing Patreon in the meantime.
Yep. So join us over there. And there's a big backlog of various things. Brio magazine. We actually did a brief episode on Jesus freak. That would be a good introduction to this series, but we're, we're getting ready for the deep dive. Thank y'all so much for coming along with us for listening. We just really appreciate all your engagement.
Um, yeah. And, and again, like, you know, Shout out to us on social [00:52:00] media about what your dating experience was like. And we'd love to continue this conversation. Thanks so much.[00:53:00]
