My Best Friend was Born in a Manger
Season nine of Prophetic Imagination Station is here!!
Before listening, go ahead and check out the music video for Jesus Freak.
We’re diving into the iconic album Jesus Freak by DC Talk, track by track.
In this introductory episode, Krispin and DL talk about the title track, examining the lyrics and context behind the song Jesus Freak.
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TRANSCRIPTJesus Freak Ep1
Krispin: [00:00:00] All right. Season nine of the Prophetic Imagination Station Podcast. I feel like this should be season ten just because of how epic this is going to be. Right? I mean, I'm not saying that I think our podcast is gonna be epic, but I can't think of anything that is more evangelical media from the eighties and nineties than DC Talk’s album, Jesus Freak.
DL: Jesus Freak from 1995. Decent Christian [00:01:00] Talk, you know, giving us those sweet, sweet rock tunes. I don't know. Everybody said it was a grunge album.
Krispin: Uh huh
DL: It was grunge for Christians. You know what I mean? Right?
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah.
DL: It like has that 1995 Seattle coffee shop vibe though. It does. Yeah. I think, right?
Krispin: Yeah. Then you mix in some rap, like it is rap rock.
DL: Is it rap rock?
Krispin: I think, technically.
DL: You know what, to me there's nothing more boring than listening to people trying to describe what genre of music a thing is. And we've already done that.
Krispin: That was all that I did as a teenager.
DL: Okay, before we dive into it, welcome everyone to season nine. We are going to be going through the 1995 album, Jesus Freak by DC Talk song by song. We are interviewing some really amazing people, but today you get just Krispin and I, and we're gonna be talking about not the first track,
Krispin: Which is coming soon. Yes. We are [00:02:00] going to start with, You love saying that word,
DL: The titular song. Okay. The actual song Jesus Freak because this is where we had to start.
Krispin: I know, right.
DL: This was my jam. Can I set the scene?
Krispin: Yes.
DL: For what I was like in 1995?
Krispin: Yes.
DL: Yes. 1995. Little DL Mayfield, then known as Danielle May. No, not Mayfield, but I won’t say my maiden name. I had long blonde hair. I was homeschooled my whole life.
Right around 11 years old is when I skipped seventh grade, because when you're homeschooled, you can do shit like that. I had grown up in a family that was super religious. My dad was a pastor. I think I didn't actually hear Jesus freak until we moved to Northern California. And around that time Jesus freak was sort of like my entrance into like, wow, music, [00:03:00] Christian music can be cool and it can be very evangelistic.
And that's like two things that DC talk were really into. And I loved rock after that cd, you know what I mean? And our family car trips and all that stuff. I saw DC Talk perform in Sacramento at the arena, whatever that arena is there with Billy Graham, I think, I don't know, I must have been 12 when they came through.
And you know, they weren't my first concert. My first concert was Carmen when I was eight, but they were like a big deal and I could kind of care less about Billy Graham, which made me feel very guilty.
Krispin: I thought you were gonna say you could care less about Carmen.
DL: No, not Carmen.
Krispin: Okay.
DL: I mean, I
Krispin: I think we’ve talked about Carmen before.
DL: I like have the heart of a theater kid and so Carmen really got to me with his theatrics, you know what I mean? And Carmen was in like a cosmic battle, which is definitely how my mom raised me to believe the world was. We were in this, you know, my mom [00:04:00] was living in a Carmen music video like every day of her life.
So that's like, that's the mindset I'm going into. And then DC talk comes out with this. I'm like, yes, I'm a Jesus freak. Like this gives language to who I am and how I never feel like I fit in, but it's like, how did I know I didn't fit in? I didn't know anybody. All I knew was my family and like Christians at church.
So this is very funny that I'm like, but Jesus freak gave me this language for like, this is why I'm so different is I'm a Jesus f freak. Freak for Jesus. And then right after my sort of DC talk phase is when I decided to become an evangelistic punk rocker. And I cut all my hair off and got really into MXPX and started an evangelistic punk band when I was 13 years old, and I played bass.
So DC talk was like my gateway into that and showed me that you can be very evangelistic.
Krispin: Mm
DL: And I guess the other thing I wanna say is like
Krispin: Christians can be punks too.
DL: Yes. That's what I said in our local [00:05:00] newspaper. When they interviewed our little band, I was wearing a little choker, dog chain choker.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: So that's like my introduction to Jesus Freak, what was yours?
Krispin: I, yeah, I think I listened to it in like 97 or 98. I was later to the game than you were.
That's because in 95 I was nine years old, so, you know, a little young to be rocking out. What I will say is this, is that, this song Jesus Freak, even though it brings back such like visceral memories now, it was not my favorite song at the time.
DL: On the album you mean?
Krispin: Yeah. I loved all the songs like Colored People. And What if I Stumble, like all the things that were like on the WOW compilations that were like on KLOVE, and I think that's because I was nine years old when it came out. So I heard those songs. I didn't actually hear Jesus Freak until later.
Like, I remember hearing other kids talk about it, [00:06:00] like it was like so wild, and I was like, oh, I know these other songs, but I don't know that one.
DL: Christian kids were talking about how it was wild?
Krispin:Yes. Uh huh. Yeah. Other kids in my Christian dance troop.
DL: Oh, Krispin Mayfield, oh, this is why I love you.
This is why I love you. Yeah, so I don't know, like we have all season to sort of like unpack who DC talk was, like the cultural moments leading up to this. I think for today, I just wanted to talk a little bit about like the fact that they toured with Billy Graham with the Jesus Freak album. Like it's not an accident.
Like do you know what their original name was? It was something like DC Talk and the One Way Crew.
Krispin: I did not know that.
DL: And it's funny, like what do you think? DC talk and the One Way Crew. Okay. That was like after they graduated from Liberty University. So they met, that's another important thing.
Toby Mac, [00:07:00] Michael Tait, and Kevin Max all met at Liberty University. Michael Tait, who is the Black member of the group, he was the one that was kind of the best musical voice, and he would like perform gospel songs all over the place, and he would bring Toby as his sound person and then like near the end of singing these gospel songs that old white people love to hear, Michael would be like, I actually have a friend here who's running sound for me. Like, and him and I have been working on some stuff like, you guys probably don't wanna to hear that, do you? And then the crowd would be like, yeah. And then Toby would get up and they'd do their weird rap stuff and then they added Kevin eventually, but they were like the darlings of Jerry Falwell.
Okay. The darlings of like the man who started the moral majority movement, the man who was responsible for so much of the organizing of the religious right to political power. Okay, so that's how this starts. DC talk is the [00:08:00] darling of these people. DC talk is the one-way crew.
Krispin: When we watched the documentary about CCM Jesus music or whatever it's called, I was really struck by how many late night appearances they had before Jesus freak.
DL: Yeah. I mean, it is interesting. They were trying really hard to break into the mainstream and so yeah, they went on Arsenio Hall, they went on the Tonight Show. They did all this stuff like DC talk. When it came to this album, they were like, we wanna go mainstream. And they did it very like, systematically, which we will come to when we come to the music video of the song Jesus Freak, which I just made you watch.
You know, if you're listening to this, I would suggest pausing and going and watching the music video for Jesus freak, because it's wild. Okay.
Krispin: It is. I just watched it because Danielle was like, you have to watch this before we record. And I thought I was gonna break down in tears. [00:09:00] We'll, we'll get into that in a minute.
DL: Ok. Get into it.
Krispin: Well, it just is just really upsetting. I feel like we need to set it up first.
DL: Okay, you describe it.
Krispin: So basically, it's them in a prison.
DL: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: You know,
DL: Rapping.
Krispin: Yeah. In a prison cell all together. They have a lot of things with them for being in a prison, like a cross, a wooden cross, of course. But then the rest of it is basically, you know, them just making lots of eye contact with the camera, singing, rapping.
It's funny because Toby Mack is like rapping in this very nonchalant, like, almost like he's just quietly talking. Which is not how the music itself sounds, which cracked me up. But then the rest of it is historical footage from the Holocaust, from the Civil Rights Movement. I feel like there [00:10:00] is some stuff in there from like communist Russia, right?
DL: Yeah. So it's like this very nineties aesthetic, which is all this like black and white footage of these things, and then the DC talk members looking really serious and intense, like in a prison cell, and then the intense footage and then, you know, they're singing about what will people think, you know?
Krispin: Right. Yeah. And I think just what made me wanna cry is like, here is these really significant things in history and they are equating that with Christians currently in America. Right. They are saying like, I mean there, there's footage, right? Of Jews being rounded up and imprisoned going on.
DL: Are those Jewish people? Is this from the Holocaust? Like, or is this Christians somewhere? Like all of these clips were really out of context.
Krispin: Yes. It's so true. I mean, it's wild because they all have, like, they had pictures of burning books from the Holocaust, right? [00:11:00] But they, then they had pictures of burning churches and then they had pictures of burning crosses and you're like, those actually all mean different, very different things.
And it was Christians that were burning crosses.
DL: Yeah. I'm like, if I had watched it as a kid, which I don't think I did. I didn't get into music videos until later, you know? I think I would've been like, oh yeah, these are all scenes of Christians being persecuted. I'm not sure. I would've been like, oh, that was the Holocaust or that was whatever. And that is just so confusing because that's not what all the clips are. And like if you understand what they are, you're like, oh yeah, that's an image of Nazis burning books. And the Nazis were Christians, like all of them were Christians. Like, what are we doing here? Why is this a part of the video?
Krispin: They were persecuting Jews, not persecuting Christians.
DL: I mean they also persecuted some Christians, but mostly it was, yeah, Jewish people. So it's very confusing and I'm just like, [00:12:00] What is happening in this video, cause we know how this album and these people have been used since then, which really casts a very upsetting light on the music video, and that's probably where you're coming from. But do you want me to tell you about the director?
Krispin: Yes, yes, please.
DL: Okay. So DC Talk, wanted to go main stream, right?
And they were like, we’re gonna go grunge, we're gonna capitalize on the Kurt Cobain Nirvana thing. And so this guy had directed this music video for Nine Inch Nails. His name was Simon Maxwell, and he's from New Zealand and Nine Inch Nails, you know, was really intense. And you know that song Hurt, I know it because Johnny Cash covered it.
Krispin: Uh huh. Yeah.
DL: But the original song Hurt, like he made this music video that took the world by storm and it was kind of that same format, like all these video clips, but most of it was like of death and decay and animals eating each other and just like really dark, you know?
And people loved it. And so DC Talk was like, we want that guy to do our video.
Krispin: Do you think DC Talk did it or do you think it was like the record label?
DL: DC Talk reached out to him and they were like, we want the Nine Inch Nails director guy of that really intense video that everybody freaking loves with all the black and white clips and the animals eating each other and like a snake attacking you and all this stuff. And death and decay, blah, blah, blah. And they were like, yeah, we wanna do it because everybody knows we're a Christian band and you're like the least Christian person. And so we want you to make the music video. And so in an interview, Simon Maxwell was talking about it. He said like, so we pitched, I don't know if that means him and DC talk, he says, we pitched the idea of a hard-hitting video that used controversial images that questioned persecution and things like that. And the interviewer was like, and they were okay with that because some of the clips are always positive about Christians and he was like, yeah, they're up for it. And as part of the creative process he sent them various stills and illustrations like the race wars in the states and the treatment of Jews during the German uprising. And the whole look of the video would be [00:14:00] quite dark as opposed to colorful and bright and happy, and they were up for it. And the way he wanted the video to work, rather than making a statement on it, was just showing some provocative images and let you draw your own conclusions.
Krispin: Did he know what sort of conclusions evangelical Christians would draw?
DL: That's what's wild. Like that's spoken like somebody who doesn't, I mean, again, he's not from the states. He doesn't get. He's like, this is kind of cool that these Christians are up for me putting these images in this video.
And I think he did a few separate ones. He said he did one that was very intense and like MTV refused to air it. And then he did a very tame one. And then the one that ended up airing all the time on MTV was like this in between one that we just saw, anybody can see.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: This is somebody who thought this would be very provocative and cause people to think, and that is not what ends up happening at all.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. [00:15:00]
DL: It’s not just the video or the rest of the paraphernalia that comes with the song Jesus Freak. So Jesus Freak is not just the title of an album, it's not just the title of the song. It became this whole kind of industry, like in Christian bookstores, you know what I mean? Like, and it had its own aesthetic. It's like it's supposed to be like an ancient book or an ancient manuscript, and like all the books had these tattered edges that made it look like an ancient manuscript being smuggled out of the middle east, you know?
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: Do you remember all that? I mean, I was, I just loved the aesthetic. I just likede the drama of it. And tons of people already on social media reached out to me, like, remember the pages and the book? I'm like, yes. Like of course I do. And so many books were sold. The most famous one was this book that they put out a few years after the album came out, and it's called Jesus Freaks by DC Talk and the Voice of the Martyrs and stories of those who stood for Jesus, the ultimate Jesus freaks.
It's just a book about martyrs and people who, [00:16:00] you know, were willing to die for their faith.
Krispin: Oh, okay. So I haven't read this.
DL: It takes a turn. If we're talking about going from this video, that's supposed to be like, let's take some really complex ideas of persecution and how people have been persecuted throughout the world.
And think about this idea of being a Jesus freak. Like I think that director, he was trying to do something really interesting. And that is not at all what ended up being communicated.
Krispin: Yeah. I was gonna ask, not having read the book, what is this like, is this like historical martyrs throughout Christian history or is this like 20th century martyrs under like modern governments?
DL: I mean, it's both. It makes it both, and we will have an entire episode dedicated to the book because it definitely needs its own treatment. So we're not really gonna get into the book, but I'm just saying that's where this ended up going. It didn't go in the direction of like, let's have some provocative [00:17:00] conversations around the fact like the Nazis were Christians and they persecuted other people.
Like no, that is a hundred percent never once said in anything about DC talk and the song.
Krispin: I mean, so I told you it made me want to cry. There's just something so distressing about seeing Jewish people behind fences, sort of like in cages with them seeing the words, what will people think when they hear that I'm a Jesus freak?
DL: It's so offensive.
Krispin: That is like, and I like, I'm thinking of like, I have a friend who's Jewish, who's actually, whose dad survived the Holocaust, and just like what that would be like for her to, like, I just, I wanna like, apologize on behalf of them.
DL: These three young men are cosplaying as people imprisoned for their faith and like, [00:18:00]not actually reckoning with the history of like, Christians oppressing people.
So it's really a big deal. I mean, your big feelings are very warranted. But I think we, we should just like, get into the song. You wanna get into the song? Okay. So I think we should take turns reading some of the lyrics. Do you have them on your, on your phone?
The intro. “What will people think when they hear that I'm a Jesus freak? What will people do when they find out it's true?” Okay, so there's that. And then Krispin. I really wanna know your thoughts on this next part, Okay? Verse one is Michael Tait singing, “Separated, I cut myself clean from a past that comes back in my darkest of dreams. Been apprehended by a spiritual force and a grace that replaced all the me I've divorced.”
Krispin: You knew that I would love to talk about that.
DL: Tell me about it.
Krispin: Okay, so there's so much here just in those four lines. One is [00:19:00] there's that, like, that, um, testimony narrative, right? Like, oh, it used to be really bad and now I'm really good. There is this, like, you can see this like binary thinking of like, I was really bad, right?
And now that's totally gone.
DL: I cut myself clean from myself. I've divorced myself, and it comes back to haunt me in my darkest of dreams. I'm like, what’s happening? And this is seen as like totally normal. You must divorce yourself. Like divorce yourself, Krispin.
Krispin: Right. And I think that has like two, two implications.
One is that part of like, I'm gonna like sacrifice myself to the point of death. But I think there's also this sense of, like, me as a person should not exist in the world, actually.
DL: That's what it's saying. And you must kill you. Right?
You have to cut yourself clean from your actual body, desires, feelings, and thoughts. And give everything to [00:20:00] God.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: You're a Jesus freak.
Krispin: Right. And like anything that is of you is so, is from the darkest of dreams, right? Like, there's this idea of like being human and like, even, like, I'm just thinking about like, making mistakes or whatever. And it gets equated to like, if it's not exactly like a pure picture of Jesus, it means it's really, really bad.
DL: Yeah. I, I think it's a very upsetting line that people just kind of like gloss over, but it speaks to this like, oh no, in order to be a Jesus freak, you must cut yourself clean, like from yourself and divorce yourself. Okay. I want you to then say the next part.
Krispin: You want me to say it?
DL: Yes, I do, say it.
Krispin: I mean, everybody's gonna be rapping this in their heads, right? “I saw a man with a tat on his big fat belly. It wiggled around like marmalade jelly. It took me a while to catch what it said, cuz I had to match the rhythm of his belly with my head. Jesus saves is what it [00:21:00] raved in a typical tattoo green. He stood on a box in the middle of the city and he claimed he had a dream.”
DL: Okay. When I was a kid, when I was 11, this is my favorite part of this song. Okay. Cause it is a rap. So, man, with the I speak, bully, wiggle, rap, like moment, like jelly, you know. What stands out to you the most off, out of, just, just right off the top of your head? What stands out the most to you?
Krispin: Relistening to it now, is he claimed he had a dream,
DL: Right.
So, so in our head, right, you see it's like a street preacher is basically what they're talking about, right? Somebody who stands on the street corner and is preaching the gospel, which is basically just a mentally ill person, like yelling about the end of the world, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Yelling that you need to become a Christian.
That's what I think. Who also like has a belly and you can see a tattoo on. [00:22:00]
Krispin: He is shirtless. Yeah.
DL: A shirtless person. They would have to be white because how else could you see green? A green tattoo.
Krispin: I like that you're really analyzing.
DL: When have you ever seen a green tattoo?
Krispin: Ever? Well, I get it. Like it's, it’s like when tattoos get older and faded, it can look kind of green. Mm.
DL: I would never say green, I would say he just did it to rhyme with, “He claimed he had a dream.” Which is so weird. I don't know anybody with a green tattoo. I, you know what I mean?
Krispin: Typical tattoo green.
DL: Can you see my tattoo right now?
Krispin: Uh huh.
DL: I have a tattoo over my heart. I mean, not quite over my heart.
That's a J in a heart because it stands for Jesus is My Heart. I got that when I was 17 years old and dropped out of Bible college for the first time. [00:23:00] So I guess this, you know, stood in my head. Because then I wanted to get a tattoo that somehow signified that I still was a Jesus freak. I still love Jesus, even though I couldn't hack it at a Pentecostal Bible college.
But yeah, so we have this image of this street preacher, which, you know, I just wrote this book about Dorothy Day. It really makes me think about her co-founder of the Catholic Worker Movement, Peter Maurin, who was like, loved to go to Union Square in New York City in the 1930s. And like tons of, there's like this whole culture back then, right, of people were selling their newspapers.
They were like proclaiming their radical ideas. They had all these like poems and like things that they would share and like pockets would be stuffed and they'd stand on these soap boxes and you know they considered themselves to be like, really great orators and rhetoricians and like propaganda and agitators, and Peter Maurin was like that.
And I feel like that's sort of what they're talking about, but it's also in like the nineties, like people who were doing that were mentally [00:24:00] ill people, right?
Krispin: Yeah. I mean, as I heard this, I, what, what I was really struck by is, so they're making this reference to Dr. King.
DL: Oh, at the very end, he claimed he had a dream.
Krispin: Yes. Right?
DL: Yes. Which is absolutely an allusion to Dr. Martin Luther King. And they're equating what he did to a street corner preacher.
Krispin: Not only that, but as I was listening to it, I was like, Dr. King's message is in my mind, the opposite of someone who's on a street corner yelling, Jesus saves and you have to put your faith in him.
DL: Yes. Absolutely the opposite.
And to me, I don't even know why it's in there, except I think DC talk does this a lot. They do these weird little allusions to Dr. King throughout their work.
Krispin: Or huge allusions like naming an album Free at Last.
DL: I mean, you're right. I, I [00:25:00] think somebody could write their entire dissertation on how DC talk interacted with the legacy and work of Dr. King because it's not good, but it's very similar to like what Billy Graham would do. Right. You like, you capitalize it on it if it suits your aim and it makes you feel like you're doing some racial inclusion, when in reality you're just, totally watering down and messing up what Dr. King was actually talking about.
Krispin: Oh yeah.
DL: Okay. So then they just say things like, you know, “what will people think when they hear that I’m a Jesus freak?” You know, “I don't really care if they label me Jesus freak. There ain't no disguising the truth,” you know? “No, I ain't hiding the truth.” And then, uh, Kevin Max and Toby Mac do a little thing.
I'm gonna read it for you, okay? Okay. It says “Kamikaze, My death is gain. I've been marked by my maker, a peculiar display. The high and lofty, they see me as weak cuz I won't live and die for the power they seek.” So [00:26:00] the kamikaze thing is kind of intense, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Do you know what Kamikaze is?
Krispin: Yes. Uh huh
DL: That is like basically suicide.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Well, like suicide bombers.
Right? Who would like, So they would, they would die, but towards an end of killing more people.
DL: Right? So they're saying like, suicide bombing is great.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: You have to like kill yourself. You know what I mean? And you've been marked by God for peculiar design, basically.
Right?
Krispin: I didn't understand, I was trying to figure out what this means.
A peculiar display, like I guess it means of like self sacrifice as a way of like, rather than holding power. Yeah. Right.
DL: Cause I loved that last part when I, even when I was a kid, like the high and the lofty, they see me as weak, cuz I won't live and die for the power they seek.
I was like, Yes. Like we don't want the world's power. I truly believed that's what Christians thought. Like Christians would never capitulate to power, like Christians would never want power, like we would [00:27:00] die before that.
Krispin: Just as we were talking about this, all that is coming to mind is that picture of Michael Tait in Trump's white house with him.
DL: I, that’s what I'm saying. I believed this song for what they said. You die to yourself. You've sold out for God, and you will always confuse the powers of the world. Mm. They will never understand you. They always think you're weak, right? Because they don't understand.
We don't live according to the powers of this world. They mean nothing to us. That's how I interpreted it.
Krispin: Uh huh, right? Yeah.
DL: And that's like supposedly what all these stories of the martyrs and stuff are saying. It's like, government is always going to be against you, right?
And now all these stories of persecution just fueled Christians into being really scared and voting for Republicans and being like, actually we don't, we don't want to be martyrs. We would actually like to have the power now. You know? So that's like, been a huge shift, I think. Do you wanna say the verse [00:28:00] about John the Baptist?
Yeah. Cause now we go to John the Baptist.
Krispin: Right, Which, for one, I think this is another example. You know, they use the same pre-chorus, so I feel like they're making an equivalent to John the Baptist, to the guy in the park yelling.
DL: Like marmalade jelly.
Krispin: Yes. Uh huh, which I think is problematic. “There was a man from the desert with knats in his head. The sand that he walked was also his bed. The words that he spoke made the people assume there wasn't too much left in the upper room. With skins on his back and hair on his face. They thought he was strange by the locus he ate. You see the Pharisees tripped when they heard him speak until the king took the head of this Jesus freak.” Basically.
DL: They squashed a lot into that little verse, you know what I mean? I don't understand the knats in his head. They're trying to say he has knotty hair, I guess. Obviously we [00:29:00] have some lovely antisemitic stuff in here about the Pharisees.
And then I remember the music video, Kevin Max, when he says this part, you know, “until the king took the head of this Jesus freak,” and he does like the head motion thing.
Krispin: Uh huh. Uh huh.
DL: And I'm just like, yeah, you know what, when you're a Jesus freak, you might get your head cut off because my mom had forced me to watch A Thief in The Night.
Where the end times was coming and, and that's how everybody died in that movie, was the guillotine. And so I thought the guillotine. All the Christians died. Right. The Antichrist killed him by the guillotine. So I like, when I heard this song, I was like, oh yeah, the guillotine got him too. Coming for me. Came from John the Baptist. That's like how most Christians throughout history have died.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: By guillotine, which now I know is not true. But I really didn't believe that.
Krispin: So this song for you as a kid like this [00:30:00] can, like you had been told, or like you had heard from various, from multiple sources, you'd been told like you are going to be martyred as a Christian, your head is going to be cut off and then you listen to this?
DL: In detail. I watched the movies. I, my mom was super obsessed with the end times, and we ran in charismatic circles where they did, you know, prophesied that over me specifically, cause I was a true believer.
People could see that my little autistic self, you know, I just believed. And so they were like, yeah, you are somebody who can last to the end, you know, you can die a martyr’s death. And I was like, okay, I did not want to, but when that's like the only thing you're being told is the best way to be a Christian. So Jesus Freak kind of came at a time where my mom had kind of calmed down on some of the end time stuff, but this kind of picked up that narrative of even if the world isn't come to end, like right this second, you know, maybe a Republican is in office, so maybe it’s not yet.
But still we need to prepare. [00:31:00] And if you look at some of like the other materials that came out with the Jesus freak stuff, like there's like a, what is this? It's like a devotional book called Live Like a Jesus Freak. And it literally, the headline is “Spend Today as if it were Your Last.” And this devotional book is like all about how you can live each day as if it's your last, and give everything to God.
Krispin: So I think it's worth pausing right here. Like DC talk, you know, was everywhere. This is like white evangelicalism and we think of this as like mainstream sort of, right?
Like this is just like, you know, a really common experience. And I think it's really worth mentioning that this is really messed up to be giving this message for you, to get this message for kids, to get this message to be told like, you are going to have to die for your faith.
DL: And I think this is something we can unpack throughout the season. It's like not everybody took it as seriously as I did, and I'm [00:32:00] definitely somebody who like has like continued, you know, psychological damage, I would say from the stress, my body just being in a constant state of stress, like live each day at this as if it's your last is literally telling you to live in fight or flight mode. You know, every day. And I did. I've done that for decades to be a Jesus freak and, and even when I didn't think the world was ending, I was like, I've got to be a missionary.
I've got to live in low-income housing with refugees. I've got to send my kids to the worst school.
I've got to send my kids to the worst school in my city. Cuz that's what a Jesus freak would do.
I've gotta run all these free programs. I've gotta volunteer at church. I've gonna raise hell on social media every freaking day about another horrible thing happen. You know? Cause I thought did Jesus freak would.
Krispin: because if you don't, what does that mean?
Danielle: I'm like, I'm giving up on God. Like God's counting on me
to be a Jesus You know what I mean? So, I mean, we just got really intense, [00:33:00] but,
Krispin: But I think that's really, and this is kind of like where we wanted to go with this season. right? Is to think about how much pressure that is.
Danielle: It's so much pressure and we'll be unpacking that sort of like through a religious trauma lens.
But I mean, I know you wanna go really deep right now, but we have to get to the bridge
Krispin: Okay
Danielle: We have to get to the bridge. Um, the bridge, which to me I was like, have, have, has there ever been a more cheesy line written
No.
Than this? Do you wanna say it? You wanna do the honors? You wanna say it
Krispin: it?
Yes. People say I'm, I mean, people are like people.
Y'all listening. You're like, We already know . People say I'm strange. Does it make me a stranger that my best friend was born in a major?
So, um,
Danielle: It means that our Christmas cards this year, people say, I'm strange. Does that make me a stranger? My best friend was born in a
Krispin: What's the worst part? The, The Strange and Stranger [00:34:00] pun, or the best friend part like that? Jesus is my best friend.
Danielle: Well, again, looking at me being an autistic, sheltered, intense child, I knew I was strange, so I love that part.
I was like, Yeah, people say I'm strange. make me a stranger? A map? Best friend, You know, I was really lonely and I was really scared, and so I found a lot of comfort. I mean, I was scared at the end of the world because that's a scary. I was scared about getting my head chopped off. I was scared about being a Jesus freak, and yet everybody was telling me like, You have to be one.
You have to be one. This is the only way to actually live this out in a way that is true to your convictions. I had really strong convictions. I was like, Of course, I have to live it out. And I took a lot of solace in thinking of Jesus, like as my Friend.
And so I'm like, Yeah, this, this stuff was like catnet for me.
Let's just say that.
Krispin: that. . Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And I felt really cool listening to it. Like the music video's kind of dark and scary, but the music, [00:35:00] like if, if you're not watching the music video and you're just listening to the music, you're like, this is a bop.
Krispin: you know?
Right.
Danielle: a jam,
Krispin: Uhhuh
Danielle: you know, like all the guitar.
Yeah. Like I was into it. Mm-hmm. , it made me feel happy. Mm-hmm. and like I am weird and there's a reason for it. And actually the reason is of cos. Importance.
Krispin: Well I really relate to that part because I, I did not really have friends until I was like 15. Uh, so also a lonely childhood.
Just two, two lonely kids found each other anyway, . Um, but yeah, like I had a hard time making friends at school. Um, and so in my mind it was always because I'm a Christian.
Danielle: And I think
that's a common story with, with Nora Divers. Christian, you know, kids born into Christianity like a high, a high control Christian environment. Um, just anybody who has any sort of like part of them that would make them sort of [00:36:00] marginalized I can see how this really would resonate with them.
Krispin: It's really interesting cuz it, yeah, it gives you an identity and a sense of belonging.
Danielle: Oh, and a sense of purpose. And a sense of mission. I mean, there are reasons why we were all in on evangelical Christianity. Like there are real psychological reasons why, and huge parts of that are the meaning making the identity formation and to bring it back to DC talk touring with Billy Graham, right?
So they did all these crusades with him, and yes, he used the word cru.
forever,
is wretched and DC talk. Basically Billy Graham was like, I will use DC talk to get the youth to come to my crusades and get people to make a decision. And you know, people have like this really sort of weirdly nostalgic and like, Oh, Billy Graham was great.
Billy Graham was so great. Like, [00:37:00] yeah, Franklin Graham, his son or whatever is terrible. But like Billy Graham was Billy Girl's not
Krispin: You got beef with Billy Graham,
Danielle: I have beef with Billy Graham, and I know I've talked about this before, but when I went and visited the offices of Christianity today and like went to Wheaton College for the first time, I was like, what the hell?
Like everything was basically like an homage. Debbi Graham, like being the best person that ever lived, like done everything. And I.
he
was a man and he was very flawed. And now, you know, there's so much more information about his horrible antisemitic views and all this stuff. And he was very wishy-washy on race.
And like
Krispin: I I, in my book I wrote about how he had a terrible, like I critiqued his gospel illustration.
Danielle: Yeah. You've, yeah, you've definitely written about Billy Graham in your book about attachment theology and, and Billy Graham, his theology is like the [00:38:00] backbone of the religion that we now would both like to dismantle.
And so it's like, yeah, we are not friends with Billy Graham on this podcast at all. And the whole thing about DC talk originally being DC talk in the One Way band is like, that's what Billy Graham's whole thing was about. We are the only.
eternal life every other way will astray.
I'm the only one who understands the will of God.
You must do this or you will burn in hell. For all of eternal, like nobody has, has popularized like that view of hell in America like.
Krispin: Mm, right. Yeah. That's such, I did
Danielle: I mean, we always like to talk about, like these southern preachers doing. I'm like, No, it was Billy Graham. Billy Graham toured with DC talk, and like basically what they're doing is they're putting, putting the fear of hell into people and reinforcing this is the [00:39:00] only way to be a human.
This is the only way.
Krispin: And by saying it in a way, in a nice way of like, today, you could be saved from hell,
Danielle: And so using this like Nirvana esque grunge music to get kids and young people who are at really tumultuous points in their life to sign up and make a lifetime commitment to this ideology, and then tell them like, don't ever actually unpack this ideology.
Just keep going. Just be a Jesus freak, and, and, and live sold out to Christ. And guess what, Kristin? When I was living sold out to Christ, I was in such a state of panic. , I did not think about the tenets of Christianity. I was on mission for God and there was so much wrong going on in the world and so many refugees who needed free English classes and so many, you know, things.
I did not ever think about Billy Graham and what it truly meant [00:40:00] to say. We are the only. Who will go to heaven. And we're the only ones And now I'm just like, Man, that sucks. They got me, They hooked me in when I was young. Mm-hmm. . And then they told me to be a Jesus freak. And I, I ran myself ragged.
Krispin: Yeah. Thinking about Billy Graham, thinking about DC talk as the US became more and more pluralistic, right? Like where you have a choice whether or not to go to church.
That's where like, and the church is like losing power and losing control over this next generation. That's where Billy Graham's like, Yeah, we need DC talk because we need to regain control because we need to bring them in so that
Danielle: we can
Krispin: threaten them with hell.
Danielle: was, he was like, California is just slipping into decadence and you can see it everywhere you look. And I'm like, Do you mean diversity? Like, what do you mean when you say decadence? Because you know, I just am.
Okay.
Krispin: Yeah, I mean, it just is really like striking to think like if your [00:41:00] identity is a Jesus freak, what are the ways that that really helps peop Christian leaders that are in power through like Billy Graham,
Danielle: Okay. So like what people love to deconstruct is like people have to talk about purity culture. I don't blame them. Like, and we talk about like the true love weights, pledges, and stuff. I'm like, Jesus Freak was a pledge.
You, I mean, and your youth group probably like, you could tell which kids were all in and which kids weren't.
Mm-hmm. , were you gonna be a Jesus freak or not, Right? And I was like, Yeah, I will be. And then you're on this path. Right. And I think it also sucks if you're not a Jesus freak. I think there's their own, it's, you know, there's their own baggage that comes with being like, Actually I don't wanna do that. And I don't, And I'll, I'll be talking to like my older sister at some point during this season because, We grew up with the same family, all that, and she was like, Nope, , I don't wanna be in Jesus freak.
And so it'll be great to talk to her just to get, you know, that perspective, [00:42:00] but I'm like, it was an unspoken pledge of sorts.
Krispin: and the, I mean, you pick up on this, in this album, you pick up on it and free at last, like to be a Christian means to be against the political left.
There are lots of signs along the way.
Danielle: yeah, we'll definitely see that in other ones. But I think the hard part about this song is, it's sort of like, again, I, I heard it as like, yeah, we are again, like we confuse all the powers of the world. Like we never, it never crossed my mind that Billy Graham, Liberty University, Jerry Falwell,
Krispin: I mean, who was president in 95 Clinton,
Danielle: I don't
Krispin: Cuz I was.
Mean, you know this about confusing all the powers, but like Billy Graham was like, you know, hanging out with all the presidents, right?
Danielle: Okay. Here's the other thing. I know I keep coming back to this, but guess who uses the one way tag at their own Worship [00:43:00] concerts and crusades?
Foyt.
Sean Foyt, like. One way is a Christian nationalist phrase, I, There's no other way around it. And if you are still somebody who considers themselves a Christian and you have not thought through the supremacy of the phrase one way, like you need to, you need to sit down. Think about that cuz that is Sean fights.
Calling card. It was Billy Graham's calling card. It was DC talks, calling card, and the fruit of this is Roten. Okay, I have one more thing I need
Krispin: you.
Okay. It's, it's, it's really, I, I think something that is like really wild about this is my personal connections, not outside the us. Uh, my, my parents were missionaries in Southeast Asia and this was their thing was like, if we can convert the powerful people, To Christians, then they will wield their power towards [00:44:00] Christianity.
It's just, it's, I mean, I was just reflecting on my own history around it as like this, this Christian supremacy is just, it is the heart of the white Evangelical
Danielle: Mm-hmm Okay. So we'll be talking about the book at some point, the Jesus Freaks books. Right, Which we're.
Written by with the voice of the martyrs. So there's one that was published in 1989, that was the most famous one. Then they have the devotional in 2001. Um, a blank journal. Okay. Jesus Freak Journal 2001. They did a Jesus Freaks Volume two in 2003. Now listen to this. Michael Tate and Toby Mack of DC talk have also compiled stories, which they mean stories of martyrs and in the books under God and living under God.
Both published in 2004 and was published by Wall Builders. Now do you wanna guess what wall builders is?
Krispin: Uh, I something to do with, [00:45:00] uh, the borders.
Danielle: so here's the Wikipedia article on wall builders.
Uh, David Barton is an evangelical Christian political activist author. He's the founder of Wall Builders llc, a Texas based organization, organization that promotes pseudo history about the religious basis of the United States.
Barton has been described as a Christian nationalist. His work is devoted to advancing the idea that the United States was founded as an explicitly Christian nation and rejecting the consensus view that the United States Constitution calls for separation of church.
Um
Krispin: where does the term wall builders come
Danielle: well, I mean, I'm sure it's about being in Texas and also, so he was the former vice chair of the Republican Party of Texas and served as a director of Keep the Promise, a political action committee that supported Ted 2016 election.
So I'm just saying Toby Mack and Michael Tate literally published books with him. Mm-hmm. in 2004, all about the persecution narrative.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. [00:46:00]
Danielle: This proud Christian
Nationalist. Mm-hmm.
from Texas. Right. Who has, So I'm like, Guys,
Krispin: is, who is like,
Danielle: saying DC talk is fine. Like, stop, like we have to look at this.
Mm-hmm. , we have to look at this.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: I mean, Kim and Max didn't publish with WallBuilders. so there's that. But still,
Krispin: Yeah, I mean, it, it's just wild because what you see here is like, we like, well one with this, right? Going back to the video, which we started talking about.
of persecution, thinking about Jewish people in Germany. Mm-hmm. who were blamed and demonized. Right. And
Danielle: and Christians were, were being told to fear persecution from the Jewish people.
Krispin: Right. Uhhuh . Well, just thinking about like that, that's what they're putting in this video to garner this idea of Christians being persecuted to [00:47:00] therefore exclude. and demonize people at the southern border
Danielle: And to literally say there should be no separation of church to say, and America is a Christian nation, has always been a Christian nation, and only Christian should be in charge of the United States of America. That is the white nationalist dream. That is what DC talk has promoted. That's what they were promoting in this album in their tours with Billy Graham.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: and. I mean, we could see the fruits of it. It worked. Mm-hmm. , it freaking worked. and that's what I have to live I didn't know this was going on. I just wanted to be a Jesus freak, and I thought they meant it when they said we would confuse the powers of And then they went and published books with wall builders.
It's just really upsetting. I need a cupcake
Krispin: cupcake.
Danielle: I need to eat something nice. I'm really depressed. Now there's gonna be a theme of this series,
Krispin: What you're gonna eat a dessert [00:48:00] after every episode. It's gonna
Danielle: be a wild ru, is what I'm
Krispin: saying. Yes. Right? Yeah. Cuz we are gonna talk about the political implications, but we're also gonna be talking about what was it like to grow up in this setting?
Yeah. Where there's this pressure to
Danielle: champion. Yeah. I'll stop yelling at you guys now, but we are gonna unpack some of the religious trauma elements. So I think kind of the format we're gonna do is like what episode of month?
We're gonna interview somebody about one of the songs of the album, and then the next. Episode we do is gonna be you and I kind of discussing religious trauma implications. So I'm looking forward to it. We're trying to do this a little more trauma informed and have a good conversation as always, um, we can't do this without your support.
We're just so happy for everybody who supports us on Paton, but we need more people. So, you know, you can share this podcast. You can rate and review this podcast. You can join us on Patreon for a dollar 50 a month where we do, uh, Every month, like we just talked about the rings of power and I went on my [00:49:00] tolkin.
You know,
power nerd, deep dive and crisp said the most cringes thing in that episode. Can I out you right now? Yes. I asked crisp how he thought. like Laura, the rings ended like what happened to the ring of power? And Christian, do you remember what you said?
Krispin: said. I said they give it to their eagle friend.
Danielle: they give it to their eagle friend? And so multiple Patons have reached out to say they were screaming in their cars or wherever they're listening, like they gave it to their eagle friend. Like that's what Christian thought that happens.
People also said, I was slightly cringe. I was, I don't know that much.
I just got really into World War I tolkin and I'm not like, what are the rings talking? So we all have our weird things that we get into and that's fine. Um, so yeah, if you join our patron, you can, uh, you know, listen to episodes like that. We're gonna keep 'em coming. We're ready. Keep 'em coming. So thanks guys for supporting this.
Krispin: Please,
please join us over there. We're having an extra conversation a month.
[00:50:00] Um, and it does, that support really helps us be able to do a lot of this stuff as well. So thank you all so much for your support, for listening, um, and share with us your memories of this album. Yes, we would love, love, love to hear that. We'll be back soon talking more about DC talk
Danielle: Bye.[00:51:00]
