God Lovers

D.L. has a delightful conversation with Erin Moon about the very first Christian YA series, written by Robin Jones Gunn and published by Focus on the Family—the Christy Miller series. Beyond fun reminiscing and sharing personal experiences, we also uncover the not-so-subtle ulterior motives behind the popular novels (spoiler alert: it’s serving the patriarchy).

You can find Erin Moon on the socials @erinhmoon, on substack, and on her podcast, The Bible Binge. 

We have a website—check it out for more information. You can also find us on Twitter and Instagram.

To support our show (we can’t do this without you!), join us on Patreon! You’ll get access to our monthly patron-only episodes (including the entire backlog), as well as occasional zoom hangouts. You can join this community for as little as $1.50 a month!

Cover art by Zech Bard.

TRANSCRIPT

Erin

Krispin: [00:00:00] So excited about this episode, cause you are talking about the Christy Miller series, which is a series of teen girl romance books from Focus on the Family.

Danielle: What else do you know about Christy Miller?

Krispin: Uh,

Danielle: I'm curious.

Krispin: That she has French braids. I don't know, that's in my mind. 

Danielle: What? Why? Did you read them?

Krispin: I just, in my mind she has French hair. 

Danielle: I don't know if that ever happens in the books.

Krispin: Obviously I didn't read them.[00:01:00] 

Danielle: But like they were in your life peripherally? 

Krispin: Yes. Uh-huh.

Danielle: Ok can you tell, explain?

Krispin: Explain that I have two younger sisters. Pretty sure my younger sister did not read them, but my guess is that one of them did.

Danielle: Yes. One of your sisters was obsessed with them. I don't know how you don't know this.

Krispin: I know, because it didn't have, I didn't have such the, I didn't have the visceral reaction, but I was like, is that the thing that like, when we went to stay at her house and

Danielle: Yes, well, you just ruined that bit of mine. So, you know, nothing. That's why I had to find somebody really cool to talk to about the Christy Miller books.

I'm so excited. I'm so excited. Cause it's Erin Moon, who I'm obsessed with, from the Bible Binge, part of the Popcast media group. I'm a huge fan girl. So can't believe she came and talked to us about, well, talked to me, about, um, one particular Christy Miller book and we do get into the weeds and Erin’s just the, the perfect person to have a conversation where we can be silly, funny.

And then also it's just like, okay, this is, this is actually a really big deal stuff. So perfect. But yeah. What, what did you wanna say [00:02:00] before we dive into this?

Krispin: So, um, I, I was so glad that you talked about these books. There are some themes around dating, and I am preparing for our episode to talk about I Kissed Dating Goodbye, and then the books that followed that about the real biblical way to get hitched and…

Um, so, but one of the things that stood out to me was this idea, you talked in this episode about, you know, you're not supposed to actually emotionally invest in someone until, you know, for sure you're getting married. We're gonna talk all about that and how that ties into purity culture when we talk about those Christian dating books, you know, non-dating books, But here's my question.

Were you told that it was wrong to pray with someone of the opposite gender because of the spiritual bond it would create between you two, if you were not married?

Danielle: Oh, I don't know.

Krispin: I totally was told that.

Danielle: Oh, well, I [00:03:00] just, I don't think I ever would have. Boys were not on my level.

I mean, now that I think about it, I thought nobody was on my level. It's very wild to unpack my life now that I have a new level of self-awareness and it's just wild. But I think what's interesting is Christy Miller is, um, like, basically the fictionalized version of the books you're gonna be talking about in a future episode, right? The I Kissed Dating Goodbye, like all those, we know what we were getting into reading them, right? This is a book that's gonna tell me how to date or approach relationships in a high control religious Christian environment.

Uh, Christy Miller was the same thing, but it was fictionalized. So I think that's just one thing I wanna point out.

Krispin: Yeah. And I think that something that you two talk about that I really appreciated is like the themes that I see in these books, which is like, if we're gonna talk about dating or romance, we have to talk about how is God first in your life. And you're making sure you're doing everything to put God first.

And are you doing enough? And are you [00:04:00] devoted enough? And are you dedicated enough?

Danielle: Are you a super Christian or not?

Krispin: Right. Exactly. And that like gets wrapped into these conversations about romance for obvious reasons. Um, but I'm so glad that you talked about, like, that was the dilemma. I liked hearing Erin talk about relating to that aspect.

Danielle: Yeah. So, uh, the interviews, it's not short, but it's like delightful every part of it. So hang on for that. And, uh, real quick, we will be doing a patron only podcast episode this month for July.

And we are doing a, basically like a five year in, state of the union, state of the podcast, uh, we’re taking it back old school. And we are gonna just literally be talking about Focus on the Family.

So that's how we started this podcast. Um, so, and honestly, Christy Miller was published by Focus on the Family.

So today's episode is also about Focus on the Family. Um, it's like you listen to adventures and Odyssey, and then if you're, you're a girl, you read Christy Miller. So,

Krispin: And yeah, with this, with [00:05:00] this picture on only episode, we're gonna talk about the rift that is happening between people like us that grew up with

Danielle: Yeah, if you’re listening to this podcast, you maybe, quite possibly, have some relational rifts with your parents. If they raised you like deeply embedded in white evangelism, I'm just gonna, you know, spitball here

Krispin: Mm-hmm

Danielle: That there's some listeners in that position. So that's what we're gonna be talking about. Patron only. And you know, it’s a $1.50 to join, just join us, you know, that's it, easy peasy.

Come join us.

Krispin: And yeah, without further ado, Erin Moon talking with you about Christy Miller.

Danielle: Christy Miller.

INTERVIEW

Danielle: Well, this is a dream come true for me. I get to talk to Erin Moon.

Erin: This is a dream come true for me.

Danielle: Oh my gosh. One of my [00:06:00] favorite podcasters. So, you know, I have a parasocial relationship with you in my mind, not to freak you out, Erin.

Erin: No, I think we, I think we now have a real relationship, like,

Danielle: That's true.

Erin: I mean, I think like we text now, and I think, I think, I think we've moved on. I think we're there.

Danielle: Yeah, but I'm still like, I can't text Erin as much as I would like to.

Erin: You can. 

Danielle: I need to just be cool. I need to be chill. You know what I mean? Like,

Erin: You should open that floodgate.

Danielle: Okay. Well I'm just so excited that you wanted to talk to me today because it's sort of a niche thing, though, not as niche as I once assumed. Uh, but before we get into that, just really quick, you podcast over at the Bible Binge, you're an integral part of what is called the Popcast media group, uh, to the outsiders, but to the insiders, you're just like our queen of, um, both normalcy and yet the most perfect rants I've ever heard when it comes to both pop culture and [00:07:00] theology. I mean, you do it all, Erin, you do it all.

Erin: That’s really nice. I do nothing. I do nothing well, so, I do everything at like a, at, it's like 75%.

Danielle: I'm not gonna allow you to slander yourself right now. That's not true. You're amazing. And, uh, when I asked you, I was like, would you be up for like reading and talking about a Christy Miller book? You were like, I'm all in.

Erin: Oh, heck yes, I am so in, I loved Christy Miller when I was growing up. I mean, hardcore. I was a

Danielle: Oh my gosh.

Erin: Hardcore fan.

Danielle: This is amazing. You never know because it's one of these weird things about growing up in like a Christian subculture. You just truly don't know how many people read that. So before we get into all of that, I'm just gonna say a few things about the Christy Miller series for people who have never, you know, heard of it or anything.

Erin: Buckle up everyone. It's about to get wild.

Danielle: I want, I'll try and sum it up, and then I want you to sort of like jump in where you hear me, you know, missing something. Okay. [00:08:00] Robin Jones Gunn was a Christian woman who was like working with teen girls in the mid-eighties. Okay. I'm I'm sorry, I'm going on a deep dive here.

Erin: No, I'm ready. Like I, I have my scuba gear on and I am ready.

Danielle: Okay. Okay. So Robin Jones Gunn is like with these teen girls, they're like 13 years old. She's trying to be a good Christian mentor in the mid-eighties. They're like sleeping in tents, and she noticed the books they're reading. And she's very worried, Erin, because. They're kind of sexy books, you know what I mean?

Erin: Is this like a VC Andrews situation?

Danielle: I don't know, she doesn't name them. 

Erin: Okay. Oh,

Danielle: We're left to imagine, you know, what kind of romance books were 13 year old girls reading in 1986? I not, I don't know, I was two, but it's gotta be those kind of like romance books that you could buy at the grocery store, cause that was like a big way that people, especially women, used to buy books, pass 'em down to their daughters. So, Robin Jones Gunn is like, guys, I don't think these are good for like our spirits. And the girls were like, then why don't you write [00:09:00] something for us to read? There's nothing.

Erin: Robin Jones Gunn, like a G was like, all right, I will, I'll do it.

Danielle: And that was like the Lord's calling on her life. She wrote her first book, which was the Christy Miller book. Uh, she had her grandma read it. Her grandma was like, this is in 1988. And her grandma was like, this is exactly the kind of things I dealt with as someone who, you know, was born in the 18 hundreds. Like this is timeless, this is a classic.

Erin: The 1800s?

Danielle: Late 18 hundreds is when her grandma was born.

Erin: Oh my gosh.

Danielle: And so Robin Jones Gunn is like, oh my gosh. Okay. And so she ends up partnering with Focus on the Family to launch their first ever line of teen fiction. So before Robin Jones Gunn, there was no such thing as like Christian, YA.

Erin: Oh, wow.

Danielle: So this is it Erin, this is the birth of Christian YA.

Erin: That's amazing.

Danielle: It's for Focus on the Family. And it was specifically written as an alternative to sexy books for teen girls. [00:10:00] So there's all that background. And the actual plot is just sort of like about a Midwestern girl. She's 14 in the first book, um, who has like, you know, kind of grows into herself, experiences life and learns to trust God. And of course has a sort of on again, off again, relationship with a guy named Todd.

Erin: Todd.

Danielle: Which is like the least sexy name ever.

Erin: It is, it is listen and, and all of the names are very unsexy in this. Like there's Rick, Terry, Paula. Like, like that. Listen, if that is your name. Yeah. Like if that's your name? I, I, I don't, that's fine. But like, let's be honest. Like, I don't think Erin is a very sexy name, so I get it. I, I stand with the Paulas and the Terris and the Ricks and the Todds.

Danielle: Of course. But like when I was 15 thinking about running my own YA novel, I was gonna name, you know, the heroin, like Gabriela or something like you,

Erin: Yeah, no, something very [00:11:00] exotic sounding to me in Texas. Not Paula.

Danielle: Yeah, not Paula. No, no, no. okay. So the thing about these books though, is I, I don't think when I read them as a young teen, I thought about the strategic element of them, but going back and looking at them, it is a full series. I do think Robin Jones Gunn knew that. Is there like 12 books in the series?

See, I should know more, but it,

Erin: there are a lot.

Danielle: So it starts with a book called Summer Promise. Christy's 14. She meets a 16 year old named Todd. The last book, the 12th book is called I Promise. The first book is Summer Promise. And then the last

Erin: Oh, I like, I like that. I like that full

Danielle: And it ends with, oh, spoiler, Christy and Todd getting married.

Erin: They get married and they do it.

Danielle: Well do they?

Erin: But we don't really know.

Danielle: Who knows because that is not how I Promise ends.

Erin: This is not an open door situation at all in any way. [00:12:00] But maybe we should, should we redeem it? Like, should you and I write an alternative ending to this series where they like do it for the first time and because of purity culture, they don't like, it's the exact same thing that happened to me on my wedding night, which was like, I don't, I don't like I know, but I don't know.

And also like, I'm not, am I like, how do I turn this on now? Cause I was supposed to turn it off. I don't understand. Should we do that? I think we should like redeem the story.

Danielle: Oh, my gosh, I am like the least qualified person to do that, but I am willing. I'm gonna try and yes. And you here and we're gonna just try and go over it, but no, I mean, reading the last book was fascinating. And Erin, this is gonna get a little too personal for me. Okay. Because I'm just, I am just realizing I'm not like everybody else and that's fine.

That's fine. When I read these books, you know, there's not a hint of anything sexy in them, like at all. And that was great for me. That is like how I rolled through most of my life. And he, I've [00:13:00] never, I don't, I think I've alluded to this. I've never said it publicly, but I, I was like the poster child for purity culture.

Loved it, never dated. I was like in these books, and this is another spoiler. I'm the Todd here. Okay. I'm a Todd.

Erin: You're the, you are the emotionally unavailable, uh, man of this relationship.

Danielle: I was on a mission with God from day one. And you're either with me or you're not. And I was like, no boys.

Erin: Don’t you try to tempt me with your sexy board shorts

Danielle: Well, first of all, I didn't think anybody was sexy. Second of all, I was like, none of y'all are gonna move to Russia and start an orphanage. So I'm not even

Erin: I'm out, I'm out.

Danielle: Until I met a very delightful hairy young man named Krispin at Bible college. And he was a missionary’s kid who lived in China. I was like, okay, is,

Erin: I’m in, I'm into it.

Danielle: on my level?

But yeah, I have much more than emotionally unavailable gaslighter. Fast forward. I get married and again, [00:14:00] poster child for purity culture, right? Krispin’s the only person I ever dated. The only person I ever kissed. You know, we did fool around before our wedding.

Erin: Sure.

Danielle: On our wedding night, Erin, I can't believe I'm saying this publicly.

Erin: I can't believe you already know. I'm so excited.

Danielle: I did not know women could have orgasms.

Erin: Listen. And this, I think you, okay. What you just said.

Danielle: Ah!

Erin: Is so freaking real.

Danielle: It was a lovely surprise. Let me tell you.

Erin: This is way more fun than I thought it was going to be.

Danielle: I was like, yay. Okay.

Erin: But isn't that like, like this book was so influential in my understanding of what a romantic relationship should look like and that there was absolutely no indication of any kind of pleasure. Like sex was just bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

You know, do not stir up love until it is time for it to blossom. Thank you, Song of Songs. Like all of this was so ingrained in us that when it was [00:15:00] time to flip the switch and be quote unquote sexy, unless you had like a, unless you had like a rebellion moment, which I did in high school, there was no indication of what that looked like, of what was appropriate, of how to even walk through that.

It was like, just go to the, you know, just throwing people to the lions and being like, it's time to be sexy now. Hope you can do it.

Danielle: And I mean, that's such a good point because one of the things, and of course we didn’t talk about sex or anything like that. And like the majority of these Christian Christy Miller books, although the last one, there is a lot more discussion of like Todd and Christy are finally engaged. And so there's a lot to talk of like red light, you know, if they like kiss, Todd's like red light, you know, we need to like stop and

Erin: Oh my gosh,

Danielle: Wait until our wedding, you know, so all that stuff they had in the last book, they talk a lot about like the, the idea of a bank full of kisses.

So if you save your kisses now, you're like storing [00:16:00] up those kisses in a bank for when you get married.

Erin: That doesn’t make any sense at all.

Danielle: Doesn’t make any sense. Erin I'm like, you can literally, that's a great thing about being married, is like you have somebody who wants to have sex with you.

Erin: Who wants to make out with you all the time.

Danielle: Like it's really nice and awesome. It, the bank doesn't exist. Like.

Erin: It's a self-renewing resource.

Danielle: Exsctly, thank you. You're putting the language. I was just, but like, I guess when you're 15 and reading that book, you're like, okay, that's why you save all your kisses for when you get married. And there is a couple in these books, uh, Tracy and Doug, and they were the ones who didn't kiss until their wedding day.

And so of course,

Erin: Tracy and Doug.

Danielle: And so of course they had like the best wedding kiss moment. Tracy gets pregnant immediately. They're just the happiest couple. Like everything's great for them. So really what this ends up being is sort of a purity culture, prosperity gospel series. And that's how I would characterize it in the end.

And that's how, that's not how I [00:17:00] perceived it when I was, you know, 13 years old. So Erin, tell me how you came to Christy Miller.

Erin: Um, you know, I cannot remember the first time I read it, but I was immediately full in on them. I assume that I had, there were two older girls in my youth group, Liz and Jessica, who I adored, and I still love them very much, but they ended up being my dear friends, and I assumed that they were reading them.

That I was like, well, if they're reading them, I wanna read it. And I was, I was a voracious reader. I read at the breakfast table. I read in the bathtub. I read while I like my, I constantly had burn marks on my cheeks because I would read while I was curling my hair. And so when I would get ready in the morning.

Yeah. And so, but I like, I loved pulpy fiction. Like that was so like, I loved the Babysitters Club. I loved, you know, all of these, these series that we grew up. And so this was ideally made for me, it feels like, um, just because it was that [00:18:00] like, uh, that 12, 13, 14, I probably read them a little longer than I maybe maturity wise should have, but I, I just, I loved the story.

I loved this. It was this idea of like the practical ramifications of purity culture, which I know we weren't calling it purity culture then, but it was like, here is the way this is supposed to go. And it was, so everything felt more abstract when you were talking about it at your D now, or your true love waits rally or whatever.

And then here was the practical way it could live out. And that, that I love a guide. And so that was very helpful for me. What about you? I mean, how did you get into them?

Danielle: Yeah, what's funny is my, so my mom was like, sort of in Christian writer world and she went to a, a writer's conference and came back with some books for me and my sisters, we’re all homeschooled. I was the biggest reader. She brought back. Um, she kind of switched. She accidentally switched the books around and so she brought a signed copy of Summer Promise and gave it to my older sister, Lindsay.

And then she got this [00:19:00] other book signed and gave it to me. It turned out to be a very intense, like story of gangs and east LA. And there was death and drugs and all this stuff. And I mean, I was 12 and I ate that, I ate that up. I was like, all in.

Erin: She switched between the two of you.

Danielle: I've always been like east LA man. Like I wanna go there and all this.

Erin: Where all the S word went down, for sure.

Danielle: So my sister was 15 and was supposed to get that book, but I, I got it. And anyways, but I did read my sister's Christy Miller book, cause we didn't have tons of books. I was a huge reader. You know, I was isolated, homeschooled, libraries in Cody, Wyoming did not stock a ton of books. Um, so. I liked it, it was very much a stepping stone up from Babysitters Club.

That's exactly how I would explain it. But I do think that a lot of people grew up reading it when they were, you know, a tween and then we would reread it as sort of like a comfort series, you know, which is, again, a thing you did before you had Netflix, as you would reread books all the time. Cause that's like what you [00:20:00] had access to.

And I, uh, did not relate to the character of Christy Miller at all, but it was a wonderful peek at what normal girls are supposed to be like, that's how I read it. You know what I mean?

Erin: Like a guidebook almost.

Danielle: Yes, because when you look at the first book in particular, it's like a few pages in and we have already, we already know exactly how tall Christy Miller is, the shade of her hair, that she is pretty, and how much she weighs. Do you wanna guess how much Christy Miller weighs?

Erin: I’m gonna go, I'm gonna go with 115.

Danielle: You're very close. It's 110.

Erin: Oh God.

Danielle: I have never been 110, maybe when I was eight years old.

Erin: Oh. When I was eight years old I was 110. Yeah.

Danielle: What the hell is that doing on page two? It's on page two.

Erin: That's first of all, that's just like, I love Robin Jones Gunn. Like, I, I, I think she's great. You're great. She's doing great. She may not have made that choice. Maybe would not make [00:21:00] that choice today.

I hope.

Danielle: Let's hope.

Erin: I hope she wouldn't because that is not a great choice. Like as a writer or as like someone who is informing culture, we don't, maybe that, maybe not.

Danielle: Yeah. The first book is incredibly fat phobic and it's a little interesting because it's all centered around the character of her aunt, Marty. Who's like everybody, didn’t you want an aunt Marty? That's what everybody says.

Erin: I had an aunt Marty. I had my aunt, Billy, who we later called my aunt Baby. She was single, she was adorable. She had bright red hair. She did not get married. Like she had this story of being engaged to this man. But, uh, she couldn't stand his mother. And so she gave him the ring back and she was like an executive at like this big company in Houston.

And she, like, she would just come in and, you know, give you, you know, things. And I felt like I had an aunt Marty in aunt Billy, cause she was just, she would just, she would just spoil you and like make you feel so special.

Danielle: I [00:22:00] mean, this is a great plot line for the first book, right? Christy Miller for the Midwest goes to Southern California, stays with her rich aunt and uncle, and is just spoiled by them. And her aunt is like rich, beautiful, thin. And in fact, again, in like the second chapter, it's like, remember, you can never be too rich or too thin.

and they're all eating like salads and she's, salads and, um, sparkly water before LaCroix was a thing, you know, per, and so it's like the height of glamorous. She takes Christy shopping. She has Christy cut her hair,

Erin: She gets her colors done.

Danielle: See, I knew you'd be into that.

Erin: Listen, listen. When I saw that there was a resurgence of, uh, people getting their colors done on the internet, I was like, I have to do this. This is like my inner Christy Miller coming out. I need this, I need this as a piece of my childhood.

Danielle: Did you do that as a kid? You did, right?

Erin: No, I wanted to, but my, my grandmother always, my grandmother was very glamorous, very beautiful.

Like looked just always so put [00:23:00] together and she would always just hold my face very gently and be like don't ever wear brown. never wear brown, my dear. And it was, and she was like, it's just, it's gonna wash that beautiful face out. And she was like, she would talk about like, when I moved to Alabama, she was like, oh, the humidity is going to just be amazing for your skin.

Danielle: Oh, my.

Erin: She was just so glamorous. So I never actually got my colors done, but I knew never to wear brown.

Danielle: Well, I did get my colors done. And again, I responded more in a Todd way than a Christy way. Whereas like these church ladies are draping, colorful fabrics over me and telling me which colors look best. I'm like, I look the same. I never change. I am unchangeable. This is ridiculous, please. I, but you know, internally, I'm like, Danielle, when they tell you that you're a winter, you say yes, that makes sense.

Erin: I love being a winter.

Danielle: Then just forget the second it's over what that even means. So that's more my vibe. Okay. Um, so I didn't understand the [00:24:00] colors thing, but I could fantasize about moving to Southern California and coming into my room and making friends and all that stuff. So the, the first book really sets up this premise that Christy Miller is trying to find herself.

Right. And she has her rich aunt. Who's not a Christian. So that's her, like is the fat phobia. Like a negative thing, cause in general, aunt Marty is sort of seen as like a character who needs God and needs to be God. Um, so maybe that's sort of it, but it really just tends to reinforce like being very skinny and all that is good, but don't wear a bikini.

Erin: Like don't, don't, don't let anyone see your body ever.

Danielle: So again, she cuts her hair short. She tries to be this glamorous, you know, girl and ends up meeting Todd. Who's a strong Christian, all this stuff. Okay. And then she ends up, you know, becoming more of a strong Christian cause she's a cultural Christian, but there's a difference between being a cultural Christian, Erin.

Erin: As Todd explains to her.

Danielle: Yeah.

Exactly, [00:25:00] or becoming a God lover. Okay. Are you a God lover, Erin?

Erin: God, that phraseology.

Danielle: Are you, are you a God lover?

Erin: Yes, I love God, but blah, I don't want, I don't like, I subscribe to the idea that the only time I like the word lover is between meat and pizza. I think that's from 30 Rock that I don't, I don't ever, I don't ever wanna hear it.

Danielle: I was so worried about where you were gonna go. And as soon as you said that, I was like, yes, yes. Okay. That is

Erin: Thank you. Tina Fay. Thank you, Tina.

Danielle: Me and Tina Fay. We have some, we have some similarities, I believe. Um, so I didn't actually finish the first Christy Miller book. I just, I just couldn't do it. The last one I did finish, but we're here today to talk about a different book, a book I forced you to read in the Christy Miller series. Um, I want, first of all, did I tell you why I wanted you to read this one in particular?

Erin: No, I don't think you did.

Danielle: It's the fourth book [00:26:00] it's called Surprise Endings on the cover. Did you ever get a glimpse at the cover?

Erin: Oh yeah. I did get it.

Danielle: Tell me about the cover.

Erin: So this is, uh, Christy is, uh, sitting on the ground and she is watching who I assume is Terry, uh, do her cheer, a cheer routine. I believe. And then there's another version where she is just wait. No, there's not another version.

No, it's just her. Oh, it's the anthology series. That's yeah, so,

Danielle: We don't speak about the anthology covers.

Erin: We do not. No, this is, uh, this is a good, like, this reminds me. Do you remember those, uh, Lene McDaniels books? I feel like,

Danielle: No, but everybody talks about them.

Erin: I feel like you were their target audience.

Danielle: I missed that.

Erin: really upsetting that you don't know about Lene, but it's,

Danielle: I missed that, but yeah,

Erin: But it's just like, it's, first of all, the haircuts on this cover, art are just something that should [00:27:00] be, you know, like the first time you see, uh, like an actual rendition of a biblical angel and it's like, got like a thousand eyes and all that, these haircuts feel like that to me, it's like, what were we doing? Why are we cutting our hair on teenagers as if they're 50 year old women who go to the garden club? I don't understand it.

Danielle: That is the Focus on the Family agenda.

Erin: I, they, they want us to cut our hair. Is that it?

Danielle: Well, that's actually not true because I, I forgot to say is like Christy Miller cut her hair in the first book as a sign of like trying to find herself, aunt Marty, cut to the very last book where both Doug and Todd, the two very Christian men in the series have mentioned like a million billion times, how much they love girls with long hair.

Erin: We love girls with long hair.

Danielle: So Christy, you know, grows her hair out the rest of the books besides book one, because Todd and I mean, men like long hair don't, you know this?

Erin: Uh,

Danielle: Don't, you know, this it's terrible. So anyways, even that has to do with the [00:28:00] patriarchy. I mean, it sucks. It really sucks. So this is a book about cheerleading, I guess, book four in this series.

I don't think this is a book anyone would pick out as like their favorite Christy Miller

Erin: No, it's a very, like, it's a very expositional book. It's just getting us from one place to another.

Danielle: So, but I'm curious, what were your, what are some of your initial thoughts when I forced you to reread it?

Erin: Well, I mean, I, like, I immediately felt, like I, I immediately like went back to my 13 year old self and I was like, I forgot about all of this. This has been buried at the recesses of my head. And like, I remember certain moments of Christy Miller. And one moment is in this book and it is when Christy and Todd go get ice cream, they walk to go get ice cream and eat, and then they, when they walk into the ice cream parlor, they're having like, the girl is flirting with Todd and then Rick walks in and

Danielle: Uh, oh, the other man.

Erin: It’s like this, you know, triangle of trying to figure [00:29:00] it out. I remember that. So I was like, okay, I know where I am in the story now. And I was just, I, I was so just, I, I, it felt like I threw myself back into my 13 year old body.

Danielle: And it's so fascinating, cause this book is about Christy. She's 15 years old, right? At this point and a sophomore in high school. I believe her family has moved to California, but not like on the beach, you know, more just like.

Erin: Yeah, normal California.

Danielle: Yeah, normal California, which I also lived in like normal California for a part of my life.

And, uh, she, Todd lives a little bit far away. And Rick is a, like a senior at Christy's high school and is kind of a gross guy, but he's sort of like, sort of into Christy and the big kind of drama is that Christy really wants to go to prom. She really wants to go to prom with Todd. But her strict parents, you know, won't allow her to.

Erin: That is something that was so surprising to me, like that, I don't remember that part of the parents being like, oh, the girls dressed so [00:30:00] suggestively and the girls dance so provocatively. And I was

Danielle: Like that's why Christy can't go to prom.

Erin: Yeah, exactly. That's why she can't. So.

Danielle: So did you grow up with sort of strict parents like that?

Erin: No, that was never, I mean, my parents were, they were not, I would not say that they were strict until they had to be, because I was, I did this weird dance where as a baby enneagram three, like, I really wanted them to trust me, but also I needed like space and I, there was like I went through, so when I was in high school, I dated, when I was a freshman, I dated a junior who, I know who was,

Danielle: Very Christy Miller of you.

Erin: I know who was, uh, he was Catholic and I, I know it was, it was very exciting time for me. Um, and he actually broke up with me to become a priest. Um, yes. So,

Danielle: No, that's the dream.

Erin: We watched Titanic together, [00:31:00] I know it was brutal cause I was in love with him, like love with him and I,

Danielle: I am like reeling emotionally from this.

Erin: Oh, listen, it was listen, and I wasn't allowed to actually date.

So guess who came on the, in the car with us to take us to Titanic and sit with us while we watched Titanic, my mother. My mother, my high school boyfriend, and I all watched the Leonard DiCaprio draw Kate Winslet's boobies. And then when.

Danielle: Lush, gorgeous boobs.

Erin: Just incredible boobs. And then we got in the car, we drove home.

We all tried to pretend like we didn't see it. And then when we got home, he was like, Hey, I need to talk to you. And I was like, okay. And he was like, I just feel a calling on my life to be a priest. And I was like, you, I can't be mad about that. I can't be mad about that at all. And, um, he, I don't, I don't believe he is a priest now.

Danielle: He Jesus Juked you, but in a [00:32:00] Catholic way.

Erin: In a Catholic way. 

Danielle: I have not heard of that. I mean, I've heard of, I did that plenty of times. Boys, but in like the evangelical way, you know, but wow.

Erin: But I remember, I remember this moment, like, I mean, like, DL, this is so clear to me. I remember walking out of my, um, of my like, uh, class and walking to my locker and see, and he was tall, like crazy tall, like 6’3”, he had dark hair, he played basketball. He was so funny. He was so charming, like genuinely such a sweet person.

So like, I can't, I don't fully understand why I was like, I don't know. Okay, cool. But I remember walking out and he's leaning against my locker. and he's waiting for me to get out. And I remember thinking, oh my I'm, I'm having inappropriate feelings. Like this must have been what it was like for Christy

when she would see Rick in the hallway, like. It was very, like, it was very like, oh, this is making me feel [00:33:00] things that I, I mean, like I remember watching, um, My So-Called Life and, you know, Jared Leto, he, he just leans so good. Like that was the, that was the vibe. He just leans so good. And it was, it, it, it was like a, a warning sign, like, because I was like, oh my gosh, this is what it was like for Christy.

I've gotta,

Danielle: Well good thing that guy wanted to be a priest and you didn't get into trouble.

Erin: I got into trouble later with another boy.

Danielle: This is so interesting because when I read this book's presenting, like Christy does not seem attracted to anybody and instead is very much concerned with, are they attracted to her?

Erin: That is a fascinating observation. I really want you to talk more about that.

Danielle: I mean that, I mean, again, now that I understand a bit more about myself and I understand that I'm not like everybody, it's, it's interesting to go back and read these books cause when I read them as a tween and teen, I just, I never [00:34:00] understood what a Christian girl is supposed to be like. And so I really latched onto the rules part, but not like the inner world part.

Cause I couldn't make sense of it. But most of this book is just Christy feeling insecure and being like, who likes me, who doesn't and then the extra insecurity, which I think just makes me feel very sad, is am I doing the right thing for God? Am I living for God? Or am I living for myself? And when you're 15, like, how does that question kind of strike you now? That's just how I lived my life back then, but now I'm like, wow, that's a lot of pressure.

Erin: Well, I think for me it was it especially like, as I got into older high school, it was a constant back and forth. It was like, I wanna do the thing I wanna do, but I, and then, then there will be like an event at our youth group and I will repent of doing those things. And I will break up with the boy that I'm dating, or I will tell [00:35:00] him that we can no longer go to Southeast park and like mess around, or I will you know, try to spend more time with my friends or whatever, and it was this constant back and forth. And it was like, actually I do want to mess around at Southeast park or I do, you know? And, and so we would just go back and forth, back and forth. And it was this constant, like, where am I with my relationship with God?

Is he mad at me because I'm messing around at Southeast park? Like, what are we like, where do I fit here? And that was the constant thing. And so that is something that I really related to with Christy was like, there was this, this, this inner, she has those inner monologues where she's constantly like, what am I doing?

Okay. I've gotta figure this out. And that, that I really related that because the desire that I felt to be liked by a boy was so all encompassing. It almost didn't matter if I actually liked them. I just wanted them to like me.

Danielle: This book and that, and that could be very, just true to the teenage experience, especially at certain [00:36:00] parts of your life. And so, uh, tell, talk to me a little bit about Rick and Todd in this book. And, um, tell me a little bit about Rick.

Erin: So Rick, is this like he's this senior or no, he's a, is he a junior?

Danielle: I think he's a senior.

Erin: So he's like, he is like the guy at the high school. Right. He is good looking. He plays all the sports. Everybody loves him. Um, and he's got that slick kind of feel. Yeah. He's slick, Rick. He, um, he, I, I think. Like I remember this kid at my high school, everybody liked him, wanted to be him.

The girl counterpart for him was either like this beautiful goddess who should not have like hair that looked like that while she was still, you know, technically in puberty, her prefrontal cortex had not fully developed. So I think, you know, and, and, but it was interesting, like that girl was either hot and nice.[00:37:00] 

Or hot and mean, and nobody liked her, but she had to be like, there was no room to be anything, yet you had to choose. And so, uh, but then Todd is this kind of, I don't know, like he is like on this pedestal of, I mean, he is technically the Jesus figure here. Like he's perfect. He does not mess up. Every step he takes is intentional.

He is thoughtful. He can, you know, other than the fact that he is slightly emotionally unavailable until it's time for him and Christy to be together, and, I remember, I remember having a conversation with my mom about some friends of ours that had gotten engaged. They were a good bit older than me, but, um, and she was like, well, I'm just really glad that, um, that this guy has decided to like really go all in.

Like ever since they [00:38:00] decided to get engaged, he's really like stepped it up. And I was like, feels like late to do that. Like, what are you? And it was just like, but it was this idea of like, you can't give your heart to someone until you are fully committed to them. But also how do you know you wanna be fully committed to them until you give your heart to them?

It doesn't, like there's no, it's, it's not, it's just breeding. You know, we see it now it's breeding the divorces of all of our friends.

Danielle: Oh, oh, I mean, even as you were talking, I, I have the shivers. It's just like, we, we gotta unpack a little bit of that stuff with Todd, because I think it is very complex. And I think this book in particular brings out, um, you know, you mentioned he's supposed to be the Christ figure, which I think he is supposed to be for teenage girls, which is freaky.

Erin: Which is weird.

Danielle: It's very freaky. But in reality, I think this book is a great example of, uh, what gas lighting, you know, a 15 year old girl looks like in a spiritual [00:39:00] context. So we have Rick who's super gross. And I think the book does a great job of showing a, a certain kind of like male predator.

Right. He's trying to mold Christy into his perfect girlfriend. And so he's the one that's like, you should go out for cheerleading, you should try out for cheerleading. And you know, like, I like it when you wear the color red, and I like it, you know, like, I'm sure he had opinions on her hair being long.

And, and I think the book does a great job of being like, that's gross. Like isn’t that the sense? Isn't that the sense you kind of got like, and of course it's complicated for Christy because she has the attention of this really good looking guy. He ends up really wanting to go to prom with Christy and he says it's because his parents are conservative and she's like a nice girl that he can bring to his family.

So he's already thinking like a senator, you know, who needs a senator's wife?

Erin: That is the vibe, like future senator energy here.

Danielle: And so he's like trying to bold Christy to be a senator's wife at age 15. And she's like pretty flattered by the [00:40:00] attention. And everybody's like, oh, like you are only getting onto the cheerleading squad because Rick Doyle likes you and is, you know, and I, so I'm like, I, I'm glad Robin Jones's Gunn wrote about these kind of gross kind of guys, but then Todd is supposed to be the good person. And you said he's emotionally unavailable, which he totally is. Like he just pops into Christy's life. He never, like, she's always insecure. Always insecure.

Erin: And she is constantly thinking about him and she's constantly interpreting his silences. She's interpreting, She is like, she's having to become, and I feel like this was so true to my experience, it was like, I'm going to overanalyze and overthink every interaction I have with every boy. And I'm actually gonna put unfair expectations on them because I have been taught to only look at boys that I would consider for a husband material at 14.

Like that is wild.

Danielle: well, I'm still in the, I'm still coming to terms with the fact [00:41:00] that that's not normal. You know what I mean? Like that's how deep in it I was.

Erin: I, I absolutely understand what you're saying.

Danielle: So it's still hard for me, but like, uh, let's talk a little bit about what happens with Christy and Todd and Todd's prom. I mean that this will, we're gonna have to wrap this up.

I'm like, I can literally talk to you about this all day, but I'm like, we gotta talk about the prom thing with Todd. So Christy really wants Todd to ask her to his prom. Right. He lives like what an hour away or something like that. He's a senior as well. He has blonde hair and

Erin: Screaming, silver, blue eyes.

Danielle: Okay. I was like, I just need you to say those words because that

Erin: screaming, silver, blue

Danielle: Silver, blue eyes. He's like what? And every book, it says like a million times about Todd.

Erin: They talk about Christy's eyes too. And they're both blue. And like, I mean, Rick talks about her killer eyes.

Danielle: Oh yeah. That's what his nickname, killer eyes. So like Christy and Todd both have serial killer eyes and I guess that means God wants them to be together.

So their kids, their kids are [00:42:00] gonna have

Erin: Yeah.

Danielle: Insane eyes.

Erin: Yeah, they really are.

Danielle: I feel bad for them. So, um, so Todd, I don't know. I, I, I wanna talk about this, but maybe you should say first what you thought about Todd's whole super spiritual approach to, to prom.

Erin: Okay. So I just, I, I, again, I just keep thinking about the unrealistic expectations. This puts on everyone. Like, first of all, don't love, uh, him, it feels a little like, oh, I gotta take the girl in the wheelchair because I'm a good Christian

Danielle: Explain that. Explain that

Erin: Like, I don't know. Like I don't, I don't know if ableist is the right term.

Okay. I, I'm not positive, but it just felt like, do you know those? This really bothers me. Like, um, when I see a, like a news story or like a Instagram reel, that's like, oh my gosh, this really popular girl asked boy with down syndrome to go to prom with her. And it's like all about the girl. And it's all about how, what an amazing [00:43:00] person she is, because she, I guess is the, in the, the, uh, indication is that this is a charity case.

Like, and I, I hate that, that's disgusting to me and this had those kind of vibes. And I think there's a little bit of ret conning that they do at the end where it's like, we just want, like, we went and hung out with our friends and we had a great time, like, that I felt a little bit better about it, but I still, it still felt icky.

Like I, I can't quite verbalize it. Okay. You, you, you talk about it.

Danielle: So Christy, you know, is hoping that Todd will ask her to prom, right? Cause it's his senior year, last chance. Meanwhile, she's sort of making plans to go to her own prom with Rick, even though her parents, you know, haven't said, okay, so Todd comes to hang out with her one time, again, sort of like unannounced shows up, hangs out the entire time she has this internal monolog like, is he gonna ask me to prom?

Is he not? Is he, is he, this would be perfect. Is he, is he, you know? And then he's like sort of drops on her, the [00:44:00] fact that he is taking someone named Jasmine to his prom and he's like, you're cool with that, right? And I forget how it comes up, but how does it that she's in a wheelchair?

Erin: He brings her the prom pictures.

Danielle: Oh, after prom?

Erin: Yes. Yeah. After prom, he brings up the cause she has this like idea of like, oh my gosh, Jasmine is this hot, sexy, you know, high schooler. And when he brings her the prom pictures and pulls and it's Todd and Jasmine who is in a wheelchair and like the way she is described is very uncharitable and that, and Christy's like, oh my gosh, it's totally fine because she's in a wheelchair. She's the, the idea is she's not my competition, which

Danielle: I do think you even there's even some talk about that. Like, I can't be jealous of somebody in a wheelchair and, but what's fascinating is like, Christy's trying to catch up emotionally and it's all gross and icky and whatever, but Todd, the whole time [00:45:00] is like, you're fine with this. Right? You love this, right? Like this is awesome. Right?

Erin: let's not forget, this is a guy who gave her a bracelet that says forever on it. Like,

Danielle: What the hell?

Erin: Like what are you doing? My guy, like poop or get off the pot, my man.

Danielle: Like, and he totally ignores all her feelings. Never asks about them and is just like, you're so happy for me. Right? This is great, right? That

Erin: Don’t you love it.

Danielle: That's gas lighting. You know what I mean, to be like, you're 15 years old and this is my senior prom and I never asked you to go, never even asked you to come hang out with all of us.

Erin: Never, no indication that I would want you to come. Like I'm just gonna, I'm gonna, it, it, it is almost the perfect. If he wasn't set up as this like Christlike character, it would be the perfect writing of a 17 year old boy, because again, their prefrontal cortex is not fully developed.

Danielle: So here's where, and this is ki, this is kind of where we have to land [00:46:00] this conversation, but you tell me if you agree with this or not.

Erin: We cannot talk about this anymore.

Danielle: But I want to, oh, Erin, we could talk for hours. So what makes Robin Jones Gunn, Christy Miller, and Todd to be like a big old bummer is that Todd's like weird gaslighting, weird Jesus like issues. All of this stuff is, is bound up in this conversation about God's will for your life as a Christian teen girl and what you're supposed to do. And what does your agency look like? What does agency look like in the Robin Jones Gunn books? Well, it's, non-existent. You have to submit to the will of God.

Todd has agency, and in, in reality,

Erin: Well, and Todd can have agency because he is a God lover. He's an established God lover. Yes.

Danielle: And he's a man. I mean, I think that's, so, I mean, it's all, it's all in there, but Todd eventually in, in, in some of the later books [00:47:00] ends up like totally ghosting Christy. And again, this is what I would do. He goes and becomes a missionary, right, in Indonesia or something like that. That's what Christy thinks, Christy ends up going like in her college.

You know, she finally gives up Todd to God, she's over it. She's submitting her life fully to God. She ends up going to be like, going to England to do this mission work. And then she gets sent on last minute. You know, she's supposed to be with her team, but then they ask her to go to somewhere else instead. And she submits to God’s will.

Well, goes there. Well guess who picks her up at the airport?

Erin: Guess who freaking pick-? Listen. I remember that.

Danielle: You remember that?

Erin: he, when he yells her name at the airport, I was like her Hawaiian name. Yes. The Hawaiian like nickname that he's given her. Like I lost my mind. I was like, he was there all along. Oh my gosh. And it, it, but, but this is what it promised. I mean, this was the whole per- like, it was like, if you will give [00:48:00] your romantic feelings, your desires, all of this, if you will hand it to God, he is gonna orchestrate it and work it out for you and you don't need to fricking worry about it.

And like that is a theology that is still like in my head and in my husband's head too. Like he, every time, like that is just something that swirls around and it is really hard to break out of.

Danielle: Okay. So. It's so hard because I can see why you could be like, yeah, that's just a way to live life. It's not that harmful. It's not that bad. It is how most of us are raised. It's like a hundred percent the backbone of these books. In fact, I just, there's like this interview with Robin Jones Gunn that's from 2017.

And at the end of the interview, this is how she lists her life. She said, And it's about her books too. She said, it's all about learning to let go and to give it over to God. If you think your dreams have to be realized a certain way or look a certain way, that's not so. Pray, dedicate your path to God and just go along for the ride.

And so I'm like, okay, that sounds fine, [00:49:00] whatever. But then you look at these books and how do you know that you're listening to God? Is there, are other godly people, usually men who tell you what that is.

Erin: Yeah, they, they are. You are, but a leaf in the river and you will be swayed and moved and molded by whatever the river decides.

Danielle: Erin, how are these books not simply about when you're transitioning from being under your dad's care to your husband's care?

Erin: That’s exactly what they're about.

Danielle: When you let go and let God, that means you, you learn to submit yourself to whatever that person God has put in your life to be an authority over you. And when you let go and let God, how is that any different from just learning how to suppress your desires and emotions?

Erin: That's exactly what it is because that's what, that's her inner monologue. She is constantly trying. I mean, I, I, the, the Song of Songs verse is, “do not awaken love until it is, it is ready.” And that is this, [00:50:00] the thesis for these books, like tamp that S word down, do not look at it.

Danielle: Tamp it down.

Erin: Just, just shove it down and then when it's time, you don't have to shove it down anymore, but, and you'll know, you'll know what to do.

Danielle: You will, you still have to shove it down a lot, but just not maybe sexually with, with your husband, but like all the other desires of your life. Like, what are you gonna end up doing with your life? Like,

Erin: Does Tracy want to immediately get pregnant? We don't know, but it's happening. Like we don't know. There's no conversation about like, are they using birth control or whatever? It's just like, no, you're a baby making factory. This is what we do.

Danielle: I mean, so what's so fascinating is as, as I've gone and sort of researched like romance in general as a genre, what makes it so popular, you know, is one of the things is that the female character gets a happy. Ending it's guaranteed. And so that's why people like to read it. And so Christy Miller serious fits squarely into that.

But Christy goes through tons of ups and downs. And that's why I think [00:51:00] so many teenage girls relate to her right. Is so much internal consternation insecurity, the inner monologues, you know, but she does get her happy. Ending with Todd at the end. And the thing that makes it so difficult is just like, yeah, that's what God wants for you.

Like this is taken as prescriptive and it was written to be prescriptive and that's really different than a lot of other genres. and it's really sad. I don't know. I'm now, now I'm down in the depths of despair. Um,

Erin: No, come back, come back. Let's talk about, let's talk about something weird.

Danielle: Do you know what I mean? Like, and, and here's the thing we haven't really talked about is like these books sold so well.

Erin: Like a lot of copies. How did you, do you know how many copies they sold?

Danielle: Well, I said 5.5 million on Twitter. It turns out that's like how many copies Robin Jones Gunn has sold total of all her books. So that is not the Christy Miller series, but I still think it's, millions of people have read these books. I mean, she sold at least a million copies of the Christy [00:52:00] Miller series. And you know, these books were in church libraries. They were passed down from grandmas to mothers, to daughters, to siblings. So like the reach is there and it's just never been studied, never been talked about, but it's a hundred percent was the aim of Focus on the Family to teach girls, right, to submit to godly male authority and to follow purity culture to the T.

And it's the opposite of teaching girls about agency and consent. And I think you can do that in a Christian framework. I really do. That's my whole life. You know what I mean?

Erin: Yes.

Danielle: But this is not it, Erin.

Erin: No, it's not it. Like, it holds a nostalgic place for me, but I mean, rereading it, it was like whohoo. Yikes. Okay. I'm gonna actually hide these from my 12 year old. I actually don't want her to read them.

Danielle: Oh, my gosh, my kid would never, my kid would never read these and would not relate to them in any way, shape or form. Um, which is, which is fine. But [00:53:00] yeah, I kind of wondered, like now that we spent a little bit of time nitpicking it, how, how are you feeling? How are you feeling about these books? If I ruined something I'm sorry. 

Erin: No, no, I think it's, I think, listen, if we want to be honest about our past and the ways that we grew up, it's really important to look at those things full in the face. And I, I have this conversation a lot with people in my parents' generation, which is they sense that every time someone in my generation critiques a way that they were raised or critiques, um, a system with which they grew up.

That, that it's a, that we're blaming them. And I think in some cases, yes, absolutely like toxic, uh, toxic theologies, abuse, yes. You get, if you abuse someone, you're gonna get blamed. But I also think that there were the, this, there were a lot of well-meaning people who just really wanted to do the right [00:54:00] thing.

And these were the tools that were handed to them. And I don't resent that. I, I don't blame people for that because I'm not an idiot. And I know one day in about 20 years, my kid is gonna be having the, this exact same conversation about whatever way I screwed them up. And so I, I always want to approach with a posture, and I was very lucky to have the parents that I had.

Um, I was, I mean, like they, they were strict when they needed to be. But my parents didn't, they weren't like you can't go to prom because people show their bellies. Like it's, it's a, that that was never a thing. And so I wanna always be careful when I'm critiquing something from my past to look at it with a clear-eyed vision and also understand I'm also perpetuating that in some way.

I hope I'm not, but there is something that I'm doing that a future generation will look back on and go, I can't. Y'all were so dumb and it's like, yeah, no, I get it. We were like, this was dumb to us. And this was dumb [00:55:00] to our parents. You know, I just, I wanna be generous in that where I can be generous because some people they just deserve like the, all the blame.

And I, I wanna assign it where it goes, you know what I mean?

Danielle: I totally agree with you. And I think that brings up two, two points that I just keep thinking about over and over again, which one is which like the critiques wouldn't sting so much. If there wasn't so much cultural baggage around, this is the way to be a person and we're teaching it to you and you must comply or else.

You're gonna go to hell, like, literally you're gonna like create soul ties with every person you mess around with stuff like that. You know, they're the ones that put all the weight on it. So I'm like, I don't feel bad about you getting your feelings hurt because you put a lot of feelings into making us conform.

Erin: Into controlling and control. Yeah.

Danielle: And secondly, the way I look at it, cause I do feel bad sometimes I'm like, I'm coming for everything. I'm coming for everything. Okay. But here's the deal. Even with Christy Miller, I was like, it's gonna be fine. It's [00:56:00] not a big deal. The more I researched it, the more I realized, like it was written with such strategic aims and I'm gonna critique at that same level.

You know what I mean? The amount of strategy they put into saying, we need girls to not have sex, not date, not kiss. Like we need them to be shepherded from their dad to their husband, you know, like, well, I'm just, I'm gonna take that same energy.

Erin: I, I, I think that is a really, really wise way to look at it. Like what is the level of strategy? And then, I mean, that's, that's really wise, I think.

Danielle: You can tell when somebody's just right out their butt.

Erin: Yeah, you can.

Danielle: And you can tell when they're like, no, this is my, my life philosophy and everybody else needs to have it, which I have done. I've done that plenty of times.

Erin: We have. Yes. I mean, that's how, that's how we share our values with the world.

Danielle: I know, I know. So I, my kids are already coming for me. It's wild. And so, you know, I do need to be able to dish out. I mean, take what I dish out.

Erin: Take what you dish out.

Danielle: Okay. Erin, it is just [00:57:00] delightful to talk to you. Can you, can you please tell listeners where they can find you on the internets?

Erin: I'm on the Innerwebs. I'm mainly on Instagram. Um, @Erinhmoon, I have a newsletter substack at Erinhmoon.substack.com.

Danielle: Delightful.

Erin: Thank you. That is very kind. And that is. That's where I am and then, you know, uh, oh yeah, like the podcasts, I forget. Um, so, uh, you, uh, we are the Bible Binge and we have like a, a, a varying slate of episode types.

Um, we, sometimes we take classic Bible stories from scripture and recap them like you would a book, a movie or a TV show. And then I come in on the end and save Knox and Jamie from any, uh, inadvertent or advertent heresies and, uh, quote unquote heresies. And, um, then we also have episodes called favored or forsaken, where we do kind of current event stuff.

Um, we do, we do stuff you didn't get in [00:58:00] Sunday school. Uh, most recently, uh, I think we're about to release the baptism, uh, one. So, uh, it's they're fun.

Danielle: I just learned a lot about the Dead Sea Scrolls, um, the Bible Binge. So I really encourage everyone to go check out those podcasts. They're better than they're better than mine, but you know what,

Erin: That's not true.

Danielle: You know, like you should go there. Like it's just better. It's just all around better. So go listen to Erin.

Erin: This was so much fun. Thank you so much.

Danielle: Thanks for taking one for the team and reading this book, Erin, it really meant a lot.

Erin: It was a delight, truly a delight.[00:59:00]