Texts of Terror

D.L. once again revisits Redeeming Love with Dr. Alexiana Fry. We get more into the weeds of some of the problematic and traumatic elements in the novel itself, as well as Hosea, Judges, and the Bible in general. Trigger warning for violence, rape, and abuse.

Dr. Alexiana Fry (find her on Twitter) is an Old Testament scholar and professor of biblical studies, with a focus on trauma, feminism, and migration.

Dr. Fry references Nancy Nam Hoon Tan’s work from her book Resisting Rape Culture. 

Dr. Julia O’Brien’s work is also mentioned—check out her book Challenging Prophetic Metaphor. 

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Cover art by Zech Bard.

TRANSCRIPT

Krispin: [00:00:00] All right before we get started today, because we're gonna get into it right away. Huge trigger warning on this episode because we are talking about violence against women in the Hebrew scriptures. And, um, and that's really what a lot of this episode is about. So just as a heads up, prepare yourself, or take care of yourself, or skip this episode, depending on what feels best to you.

But, basically, we're talking about what happens to women in scriptures. And that is really traumatizing. I have been waiting for this episode, cause this was one of the first interviews I listened to. Yeah. And I was so excited because we're talking again about Redeeming Love, but talking to someone that has actually studied Hosea, a biblical scholar.

DL: Yeah. So, talking to an actual, you know, PhD scholar of biblical studies was wild and I don't know, I kind of feel like I have to caveat this episode. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I know you loved listening to it, and you've loved editing it.

Krispin: Mm-hmm

DL: But I did not love re-listening to it to edit it just because of myself. I think, you know, Dr. Fry is amazing and actually does just such a good job of like throwing in a lot of scholars and [00:02:00] books that I think people wanna research probably after listening to this. But, um, you can tell I was on a journey in this interview, and you could also tell that I was sort of in the thick of thinking through so many of the ethical questions that, uh, Redeeming Love in particular kicked up for me.

So I just wanna say that, um, you're, you're just gonna hear me processing and also, um, I was literally like having some meltdowns, you know, about these things and, and in our conversation, Dr. Fry brought up Judges 19, you know, this like really infamous text of terror about the concubine, you know, being, you know, raped until she died and then being dismembered and sent around, you know, and tying Judges 19 into the book of Hosea.

Like now listening back to this interview, I can, that's where I get derailed. And that's where I [00:03:00] really struggled to come back into like being really present with my conversation. So, I kind of was like, Krispin, when you should just edit out all of my yamerings and questions and stuttering and processing, but I mean, ultimately we decided to leave it in because this is like a legitimate response to the text of terror in the Bible. So, I had a trauma response. I'm like flailing, existentially, I have been sent to the brink of despair about God who lets these things happen and a holy text that I was never allowed to question. Yeah. So I just wanna say that.

Krispin: Yeah, I mean, that, that term, that you just used text of terror, I know that there are communities where there's, that is commonly used. I think in a lot of like feminist readings of scripture, if I'm correct.

DL: Yeah. So like it comes from Phyllis Trible, I believe. And I heard it from Rachel Held Evans. So, I do reference in this interview, but it's yeah, it's much more common to scholars, like, you know, Dr. Fry. So [00:04:00] yes, the texts of terror are like what feminists and womanist theologians, um, have pointed out as, as texts that, uh, are extremely violent against women in particular in the scriptures. So!

Krispin: Right, yeah. And this idea of like naming it. So, to say like your emotional reaction to this is, is a reasonable reaction, right?

DL: Yeah. So, the, so I'm, I'm embarrassed, but also like is it's like a real interaction about the Bible and how traumatic the Bible can be. So, I don't know, uh, I feel pretty embarrassed about it, but, you know, just listen to it through that lens, I suppose.

Krispin: Yeah. I was thinking about it, um, because I love this band called Half-handed Cloud, um, who started out with Sufjan Stevens. If that kind of gives you an idea of genre, but he sings these cute little like falsetto songs that last about a, a minute, and one of his albums [00:05:00] is about a lot of the violence in the old Testament.

After listening to this interview, I was like, I don't know if I can listen to that again, that album in the same way. 

DL: And that was him trying to process it, but him processing it is really different from womanists or feminist theologians. Is that what you're trying to say?

Krispin: Yes, definitely. Yeah. I don't know what his point is there, but to like hear, you know, a song with like little kids sort of sounding like Sunday School songs, 

DL: Can we put a clip in right now?

Krispin: Yes, let's do that. 

[clip: Everyone Did What Was Right In His Own Eyes by Half-Handed Cloud]

They killed my concubine, I'll make you understand

My knife will make it worse, send you a piece of her (Oh no)

Opened my mailbox, received an arm

"Please ask and find out who sent this alarm?"

To all twelve tribes, our body shared

There's never been a thing like this since we left Egypt

 [00:06:00] 

DL: It's weird. It's weird. 

Krispin: Right. Yeah. I'm not sure what to do with that, but, um, but this interview really did make me just rethink, how have I heard these stories? How have I interacted with these stories? I really, really enjoyed it because ever since we read Redeeming Love and talked about it or watched it and read it, I'd been thinking, what would someone who actually knows about Hosea say about this book? Uh, not just Redeeming Love, but Hosea. Yes. Um, and so I'm, was just so excited that you got Dr. Fry to have this conversation.

DL: Yeah. Alexian is amazing. And, uh, I have a freak out during the interview. I don't know if people will tell because really what it is, it's about the romanticization of text of terror. And I, it's okay to have a freak out about that. So yeah. So, make sure you foller, follow, uh, follow Dr. Alexiana Fry on Twitter and Instagram. [00:07:00] And she has a book coming out eventually. I think she signed a contract this year, so, so glad she talked to me and put up with me flailing around. Um, but yeah, here we go.

DL: Okay. I'm so excited today. I get to talk to Dr. Alexiana fry. Um, I can't believe I found somebody who read Redeeming Love when they were younger. Went ahead and, uh, became an expert in biblical studies and then was willing to reread it again to talk to me this. I do not take this lightly. Thank you so much, Alexiana, for coming and chatting to me about this book.

Dr. Fry: Yeah. It's, it's something, it's something. I didn't realize what kind of dissonance I would even be going through, [00:08:00] reading it after having read it 12 years prior. So, it was an experience for myself as well.

DL: Um, yeah. So, tell me about the first time you read Redeeming Love, set the scene. Where were you? What, what were you like?

Dr. Fry: Okay. Oh, uh, this has to have like a premise for like, I'm sorry for all the things I said when I was a fundamentalist.

DL: Oh yeah, yeah.

Dr. Fry: Um, essentially like the amount of people I still need to apologize to is probably insurmountable. So yeah. Um, yeah, I grew up, uh, in the church, uh, but also outside of it, uh, prior to my parents' divorce, there was, uh, quite a bit of a downfall there, but of course then I identified quite a bit with the Gomer/Angel figure, right.

Angel/Sarah/ however many names, uh, Michael Hosea wants to give her. Um, um, in the [00:09:00] book back then, just because my own journey had been full of, um, you know, intertwined with the Evangel-white evangelical purity culture. And, um, where did I identify with that? I still remember a moment in time being at a youth group thing I was invited to. And they were like, normally we do drawings, but we're gonna give the book, Not Even a Hint by Joshua Harris to you. Um, like it was clear that I was the rebel, the disobedient girl. And so,

DL: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. They singled you out to be like you need Josh Harris's book? And was not even hinting about something about keeping yourself pure or something?

Dr. Fry: Yeah, not even thinking about boys or even thinking about sexuality is like, not even a hint of impurity,

DL: Hmm.

Dr. Fry: And so, when I did get to read this book, um, it almost played upon [00:10:00] those pieces that I had been told. Right. I'm, I'm a flirt. So, and that's sinful, not to mention that it's reciprocated, and it's with other boys, like there's, there's nothing happening to the men in these situations for me.

Right. So, it played upon a lot of that for me, of this whole I'm worthless, I have nothing to offer because people see me as X. Um, and so it really, and I'll talk a lot about this. It really hit on a lot of what even Angel / Sarah says in the book, um, that she even identifies her mom saying like, it's all my fault.

Um, I did it to myself. Um, just a lot of that language of yes, yes, I did it to myself. And we'll, we'll talk about how self-blame is a really significant coping mechanism for people in the midst of trauma, and [00:11:00] especially severe trauma, to actually gain as semblance of control in a, in a time when there's no control to be had, blaming yourself is actually a really easy way out, um, to be able to feel like you have some semblance of, okay, I, at least I, I know I can fix this. Yeah.

DL: Oh, okay. So, you are already getting into the heart of the issues with this book. And what you're saying is there's some confusing and complicated narratives that some women find empowering while other people, uh, find it really abusive. And so, so I think just setting up this convo, you've already made it clear, you know, you, you see it all and we're not here to denigrate women.

And if you are a woman who found something empowering in this book, like, I, I just wanna say like, there's reasons for that. And it's still okay to critique the overarching [00:12:00] framework, which I find to be extremely abusive. So.

Dr. Fry: Yes.

DL: That's, that's what I'll say about that. I've already heard you say that, but I I'm curious to know you went on to become, um, well, what's your degree in? Tell me that. 

Dr. Fry: I have my Old Testament PhD. Um, uh, my therapist, uh, says that I'm, um, oddly drawn to the, what is disgusting, uh, which is really a great title to have, I guess. Um, so my dissertation research is actually, um, on the intersections of Judges and Hosea, just in general for all of what we're talking about, uh, maybe massive content / trigger warning, uh, for everybody. Um, but Judges 19 is the tale of a, um, unnamed women woman who is gang raped, um, and then cut into pieces. Those pieces, her body is sent, um, all over the nation of Israel as [00:13:00] a summons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that story, uh, and, uh, we'll get into some of why there are parallels between that passage and Hosea in just a moment, which is really sad.

DL: Wow. So, Hosea, you know, is the story of, uh, a prophet who God tells to marry a woman involved in prostitution. That's what Redeeming Love is a fictionalized version of, except it's set in like 1800s gold rush, California. Um, now in Judges 19, is the unnamed woman, is she described as a sex worker or a prostitute?

Dr. Fry: Uh, yes, she is. Um, she leaves the Levi's house. She is a second-degree wife. She's a concubine. Um, she leaves the Levi's house who has bought her or whatever, married her. Um, concubine is still a really tricky term to unpack.

DL: Mmhm.

Dr. Fry: Um, in, in the Hebrew. [00:14:00] Um, but they, um, say that she leaves the house, um, to go back to her father's house.

But the word that they use is [undiscernible Hebrew word], which is, uh, the same word that they use in, in Hebrew for prostituting. So, she is [Hebrew word]. She, um, and it, it is hard to specify whether that means she's being unfaithful to him by simply leaving. Um, the Greek translation, uh, gets rid of the [Hebrew word] altogether, and just says that she's angry with him.

So, we don't know if it started off abusive to begin with, this, this relationship between the Levi and the concubine. Um, but yes, so the, the Hebrew Bible, um, specifies she was unfaithful to him, she was [Hebrew word] and Gomer is also a [Hebrew word] um, And so it's interesting. The parallels there, both Hosea and the Levi go to speak to the heart of this woman, uh, this [00:15:00] to try to win them back and both stories do not end up quite well.

DL: Yeah. So, I think it's so helpful to have you kind of talk about the biblical framework. I think those of us who grew up, you know, deep within white evangelicalism, right? There's this really odd disconnect, right? We're told to read the Bible like every year, I'm like, there is so much happening to women that I just can't gloss over.

And it reminds me of Rachel Held Evans, right. Who did this really powerful lament for the unnamed, uh, women, I believe in that story and, and other people, and it was it was so helpful for me. And I just wanna bring her up and her work with lament around the stories of women in the Bible, because, um, you know, Rachel had, did not identify as like a survivor of sexual abuse or anything like that.

Um, she was just simply saying, I'm a person who needs to lament these, and that is a normal response to these [00:16:00] stories. And I, that was so helpful for me to be like, it's just normal to be like, this is disgusting. You just mentioned like disgust as your special theological interest. And we need more of that because the, like there's so many men who’ve just told me, just read this book, here's what it means, it's no big deal. And I'm like, it seems like a really big deal. This seems like a really big deal to me. Um, so I, I just wanted to interject with that.

Dr. Fry: Yeah. It, and it is a big deal, right? Like we're all told, I mean, I was my, my partner, my, my husband. Um, I still remember, you know, he's about to try to date me, um, well into those fundamentalism years. And I think I sat him down and asked, like, are you gonna be a spiritual leader? Um, are you going,

DL: Are you gonna do Bible time at night? Like, are you, while, I make you coffee? That's what all these books say you should do make your husband coffee and then he [00:17:00] reads the Bible to you.

Dr. Fry: Be completely sexually available all of the time.

DL: Yeah. That part too.

Dr. Fry: That part too. Yeah. Yeah. So, of,

DL: Oh, what did he say? Did he say he was gonna be your spiritual leader or did he like freak out? That's a lot of pressure to put on a young man.

Dr. Fry: Well, you know, thankfully we've both grown up in the white Christian nationalism, even- complex right, systems that it be. And, um, thankfully we're both kind of out of it, but it was just very funny at that moment too, because I'm like going to get my MDIV and I'm like, will you be the spiritual leader of the house?

DL: We tried so hard, didn't we, we tried so hard. Um, but God bless us. God, and God bless our husbands. We were like, no, I can't. I can't, um, you're on your own.

Dr. Fry: Why is that need, why is that a [00:18:00] need?

DL: Well, that's what these books tell us. So maybe we could talk a little bit about why was Michael Hosea held up as so attractive and the weirdness, the, the weirdness of the central tenant of the plot being that there's a man named after the prophet Hosea, who's aware of the story of Hosea, who then goes out and like tries to live the story of Hosea.

Tell me your thoughts on this, please.

Dr. Fry: Oh, gosh. Well, what's, what's hard here is that, um, I'm grateful that she says this is a fictionalized version of Hosea, because to an extent there's really not a ton in common with the actual biblical book of Hosea, that there really just isn't. Um, there are a few like massive plot lines that are, that stick out, that, that do work with that.

Um, you know, the only similarities I really saw were, um, the acts of marriage to a so-called prostitute, um, as the Hoseas are told to by God, um, the, the subtle and [00:19:00] also not so subtle acts of abuse in between and the, uh, acts of leaving, but even the acts of leaving are, are pretty ambiguous in both books. Uh, no, not so much, the acts of leaving in Redeeming Love are, are not ambiguous. Um, but everything else is fiction and filled in, which is fine. It's an act of fiction. That's fine. Um, but it is, it is quite a bit, uh, different. And what I need to maybe address here too, is that we have these two Hoseas, they're supposed to potentially maybe even be very similar in nature.

Um, even in the biblical books, we need to be careful how we use and interpret metaphor. Um, I think it's, uh, womanist Renita Weems who says metaphors can hurt. Metaphors can distort, metaphors can kill, and metaphors can oppress. And there's so much in [00:20:00] both the biblical book and in Redeeming Love that we need to be very conscientious about how we apply those things.

Um, it's interesting to me, um, it's, uh, Julia M. O'Brien I, I'm just gonna cite a bunch of women.

DL: Oh, great. Do it.

Dr. Fry: I'm gonna be all about all these amazing women scholars. Um, she writes a book called Challenging Prophetic Metaphor, and she actually remarks that, “when the author of Hosea sought to convince ancient readers of the legitimacy of God's punishment to Israel, he found an easily usable cultural analogy, which is the patriarchy framed marriage.” Uh, which that in and of itself should be like, here it is.

If you wanna talk about a not-so-great setup, it is the patriarchal marriage. Um, and she talks extensively. There are, there's so much scholarship. Um, there's actually a scholar out there named Kirsy Cobb and she [00:21:00] writes in a book called feminist trauma theologies about how she has also experienced, um, uh, personal, uh, spousal abuse.

DL: Mm,

Dr. Fry: And she writes about reading, uh, the first three chapters of Hosea then through the lens of her own abusive marriage. Um, and, uh, there's a level at which we have to talk about even the, the, um, aspect of covenant in the Bible.

DL: Yeah.

Dr. Fry: What does it look like to consent to something where they're unequal power distributions?

DL: Oh, damnit, you're just going straight for everything.

Dr. Fry: I’m sorry. It's,

DL: No, I, I, I love it, but it it's. I know it's gonna be freeing for some people listening to this and probably not for everybody, but I'm just like growing up, going to Bible college, like you're not even allowed to say like, just covenant always seem good for people without power?

No, it doesn't. Um, so thank you for even just saying that. I wonder if we could just step back and if you [00:22:00] could really quickly, I'm sorry to ask you to do this, 

Dr. Fry: No. You're okay please. Oh,

DL: If you could really quickly sum up the biblical book of Hosea for us, just for people who don't remember.

Dr. Fry: Oh, well,

DL: Like me,

Dr. Fry: You're okay. Hosea, we're thinking lived around the time of eighth century BCE, but essentially what's happening, uh, socio-politically during his time is that they're going through king after king, after king, after king. So, they're in the midst of political appeal at the same time that a Syria is looming large over here.

And they're trying to make sense of what the heck is happening. And during this time, that's when Hosea comes in and he is told by God, uh, why don't you marry a prostitute? And that will be the description of what's happening just as this woman is whoring, so is the land. The woman becomes then the, uh, the body of Israel itself.

I could talk all day about how that and of itself was probably problematic, but, uh, from then on you have, uh, instances [00:23:00] of, uh, she leaves, he names her children terrible things.

DL: Wait, say more about that.

Dr. Fry: Oh,

DL: Because in the, in the book Redeeming Love, Michael Hosea is really into renaming Angel. It's like a weird thing. So, I just wanna know if that was like a interesting thing Francine Rivers did.

Dr. Fry: I think naming in general is important in the book, in the Hebrew Bible, uh, the Old Testament for us, um, the Hebrew Bible, uh, and. I want to just reestablish that it is a role that does place people in dominion over others. And so, um, even O'Brien, I'll come back to Julia O'Brien. She actually talks about how the ideology of what happens in the first three chapters fits the classic pattern of domestic abuse.

Um, it sanctions violence, against women, period. It, it reflects the entire constellation of behaviors and attitudes that are reflected by just social workers as abusive. [00:24:00] So she's conceiving three children with Hosea, she's immediately, verbally and emotionally abused through rebuke and threat. Um, and this is the very beginning of Hosea 2.

She's then isolated in Hosea 2:6-7. And then of course there's the odd honeymoon period, right of, oh, I'm so sorry. Come back. I, I won't do it ever again. Um, all under the pretense that everything that is happening is loving. And, um, it's interesting. There's another book. I'm just gonna talk about books,

DL: Do it, do it. Yeah.

Dr. Fry: There's a woman named Nancy Nam hun tan. Um, and she reads Hosea 1-3 with sex workers in Hong Kong. And she asks them like, what are you picking up on? And she actually, uh, one of the things that they picked up on was that from a sex worker's perspective, this text denies them any personhood rights to protect themselves and their children from their psychotic husbands.[00:25:00] 

Um, they felt horrified by the violence of the text and offended in terms of their dignity as mothers, um, and how the changing of their names actually purposely pits the children against their mothers. Um, but also just to think about like their financial capabilities and economic independence is completely stripped.

So, it's tied to Hosea now. Like there's no, and I, I think that's interesting in light of what, um, Angel / Sarah wants to do the first time she leaves, she wants to go get her money that is owed her so that she can be free and by herself.

DL: Yeah. She just wants a little cabin to be alone. 

Dr. Fry: It, what is wrong with that? Uh yeah. Um so actually it's interesting too, because you have these, these sex workers in Hong Kong who actually say that they deem Hosea 1-3 to be troubling and [00:26:00] problematic.

Not only because, but mainly because it's ineffective in its primary purpose, which is to call Israel to account, because it justifies violent punishment and also sanctifies it. Um, it, not only that, but the author's clear misogyny, um, sanctions and promotes rape culture in general. And so, it's interesting, um, too, that the sex workers, when they read it, they heard it almost as a tale of caution for themselves.

Um, like, like take note, this is a text of danger and death. Like we need to be very careful of who we interact with. And it's interesting that they would think that of Hosea. Right? Um, it's, it's all really, I almost forgot the question that you actually asked.

DL: Well, just summing up, just summing up the book, right. Just summing up the book. I think you did an excellent job though, of just [00:27:00] saying like beyond just summing up the book, like I think bringing in how sex workers read the book is so important now, again, coming to Redeeming Love, which is this novelized stylized version of this book, one thing that has been really hard for me is I have tried to read the whole book, which I did not get all the way through it. Um, is people who have experienced, um, all sorts of trauma, including, uh, you know, the trauma of sex work or prostitution and all these kinds of things have said that this book was really helpful for them.

Right? And then other people have said this book was given to me to convince me to stay in my abusive marriage, to accept abusive relationship dynamics with a smile, with gratitude, forgot, you know, to God. So, so that's where I'm sort of like, wow. I think obviously listening to women who've been the most impacted by a [00:28:00] society that is violent and dehumanizing is so important, but that doesn't mean there's been a monolithic response, right, to both Redeeming Love and, and books like Hosea and text like Joshua 19. So, I, you know that, I know that, but we're just gonna say that right now, at the same time, we need to prioritize the voices who say, this is, this is abusive. Um, because those voices have not been allowed to write, uh, textbooks have not been allowed to do any of those things.

And Francine Rivers, um, really dismisses and ignores, uh, the voices of many, many, many people who said this book has been used to hurt me. And she just kind of was like, oh, I, how is that possible? I had no idea. It's like, no, you know.

Dr. Fry: She says that, and yet, the first sexual act between Hosea, Michael, Hosea and Angel, is, literally quote unquote on page 155, “My way. Not yours.”

DL: So, so tell me, okay, here's the deal, Alexiana. Everybody was like, this book is so great. And it's so [00:29:00] healing,

Dr. Fry: Yeah. Yeah. I, it all fits. What's hard is right, the, the book almost creates these two binaries. Right? You have Duke and you have Alex Stafford over here and they're clearly the bad guy. Very clearly the bad guy. They're very clearly violent, very clearly abusive. And then over here, you have Michael Hosea and John and all Joseph, even.

DL: Yeah, these benevolent patriarchs.

Dr. Fry: Benevolent, so benevolent and yet, just because it's done more nicely and in the name of God, doesn't make it more benevolent.

And so, she creates what we think is this binary. And yet it's, it's not, the binary doesn't hold. Um, if you actually pick apart some of the stuff underneath these things, um, all Sarah wanted was to be free. [00:30:00] And I think that's part of the problematic, you know, I could talk all day about some of the problematic, uh, narratives around sex work in the book in general.

Um, but that's not the point. Um, all Sarah wanted was to be free. You know, she leaves the first time simply to go get her money so she can be alone. But what ends up happening throughout the book as she is, um, being redeemed, right? Is that that freedom then begins, becomes to be dictated by others, including Michael Hosea, and Sarah just needs to see it in his way.

Um, there's multiple times in the book, there's one time where she talks about how she just wants to be free. And she actually tells him that, and he in his head is like, but you are free, but she's not.

DL: Right.

Dr. Fry: Um,

DL: She’s not experiencing his cabin where she has no access to any town or anybody else as freedom. Right?

Dr. Fry: Page 285 literally says, and she's saying to her, he's saying she [00:31:00] says, “And what, what have I to promise you? His eyes lit with gentle humor, ‘to obey?’”

DL: Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's the, that's the whole thing is she just needs to obey him and because he hears from God right, directly, um, he's the conduit of the voice of God and the love of God. And this is another thing that confuses me. Um, I'm in the process of being diagnosed as neurodivergent. So I'm like, this could just be that, but I don't, I just don't find it sexy. Right? To be told all you have to do is submit and submission is so hot.

Dr. Fry: My freedom,

DL: Yes. And I,

Dr. Fry: My definition of freedom has to be yours.

DL: This is not, this is not great for my libido. And that's the thing that's so weird is that people read this for a devotional element and like, [00:32:00] I don't know how else to say it,

Dr. Fry: Oh, I call it Christian smut. Yeah.

DL: But it's like the devotional elements. Like I feel closer to God and I really wanna, you know,

Dr. Fry: Go get it on with my husband.

DL: Have sex with a man like Michael Hosea.

And so that's why I'm like, my brain is not tracking at this and yet, but everybody who's like sort of studied Christian publishing, Christian romance and all that, they say that's like, the number one thing women say is like, this book brought me closer to God and that's why it kind of makes it untouchable, right, to critique, and it makes it untouchable to talk about the problematic elements. I have friends and I love them dearly, and they're like, well, like, yeah, Redeeming Love, I bet it doesn't hold up, but it really taught me to love the book of Hosea, and it taught me to love God. And I'm just like, that's so fascinating cause then it becomes untouchable.

Right? Um, it's just this added element of putting this religious stuff on to things that actually protects it um, from being dealt with that is my, [00:33:00] this again, I'm like, I feel weird talking about it because it doesn't make sense to me. 

Dr. Fry: I, I think what's hard in all of that too, is, um, actually a different scholar asks the question. Wouldn't it have been more effective to use the metaphor of like a male rapist instead of a woman prostitute, right? Because again, going back to the Weems, um, metaphors in what they do, um, men identified themselves with Yahweh and with Hosea in this marriage, you don't find men who are like, well, I'm Gomer. That, that's not really happening. And so, as that's been fairly consistent, if they, if, I'm not gonna just shake my fist, but kind of, um, if they really wanted to make the point in a patriarchal culture that this isn't working, this, this whole thing isn't working, the metaphor should have [00:34:00] personified a male if they wanted to make that point.

And so, we have to ask then about even the text of Hosea, if it's actually doing something differently than we assumed it was doing, can we imagine, um, there's another quote here. Um, “Could Gomer mistreatment be similar then to Hagar’s or even to the woman dismembered, cryptically alluding to the divine mistreatment of exiles who are brutally abandoned. Perhaps through silent or silence, dissent Hosea's metaphors expose the horror and humiliation Israel has to endure.” Maybe, just maybe as the Israelites begin to experience the fallout of covenants, as they experience the fallout of everything they've known, they are actually shaking their fist and calling it for what they think it is, which is abusive, um, is the educational suffering, and I have so many issues with like, [00:35:00] uh, and honestly it is scapegoat when, when suffering occurs and we look for a reason, um, you know, when I learn this lesson, then my suffering will be over. Right. Um, is the educational suffering they're, they're going through by the hand of Yahweh one they're simply subjected to, um, there's a double edge here in the interpretation of the, even the biblical book of Hosea is, is love even part of the book of Hosea?

DL: Romantic love? It doesn't seem like it, but that's how we have liked it interpreted. And as you're talking, you know, I think this can be really stressful for people who grew up with this, uh, you know, iron clad view of biblical inerrancy, you know, both you and I, I still have such high respect for the scriptures, which is why I'm willing to do this kind of work when it comes to books like Hosea.

And I find it to be so fascinating, just, uh, and you can tell me if I'm wrong. Cause I, I do not have my PhD in Old Testament history, but this, this idea of the revolution, [00:36:00] nature of this work of holy scriptures that is struggling with the reality that their God has not saved them from suffering and terrible things keep happening to 'em.

They keep being conquered over and over again, but they refuse to assimilate into their conquering cultures, you know, fully. And so, I'm like, that's interesting. That's what we can talk about. Right? That's, this is, these are stories of people grappling with the utter failure of their God to protect them in the ways they wanted to be protected.

And so, I'm like, there we go. I can talk about that. I do not feel like I wanna do that work with Redeeming Love because that's not what that book is about. At all, you know, it's not dealing with trauma in a way that is helpful to anyone. And I still think we can say the scriptures do, you know, they do contain things for those of us who struggle with these questions.

Dr. Fry: Yes. Yep. They do. Um, and I actually, is it your husband, that's working on attachment theory and the Bible? It like, it's interesting to me to just to consider, like what kind of attachment do [00:37:00] the Israelis actually have with, with Yahweh? Darren Guest, uh, writes about attachment theory in the book of Judges and it is fascinating,

DL: Oh, yeah. 

Dr. Fry: The anxious attachment that they have, like constantly needing to perform and constantly needing like, just so anxious about this relationship and they needed to be. At the same time, you asked the question, do they need to be?

DL: Yeah. And that, and then also what makes it a little different though, is like they, they had to have enough, um, security to be able to write these books where they reckon with the failure. Right? And most religious, you know, stuff is like, here's how we were victorious. Here's how we were saved. And, and that is not the majority of the biblical text to be perfectly honest. 

Dr. Fry: Louis Soman literally calls this the book of the losers.

DL: Yes.

Dr. Fry: And I think it is.

DL: That is so fascinating to me. And again, that does not translate to Redeeming Love. It ends up being [00:38:00] basically prosperity gospel, um, including, you know, once Angel / Sarah, you know, fully submits to Michael, she, this is something that bothers me the most. It's like at the end of the book, she creates a home, right, for sex workers, cause she's like, this is a systemic issue. There's nowhere for these women to go. I'm gonna help.

Dr. Fry: Which is beautiful because trauma, when you're healing through it, um, or remaking, at least your world, most people who have been traumatized, who are making sense of their trauma, actually do become advocates. That's beautiful.

DL: So, why didn't the book end there? Why couldn't Michael- okay, I'm gonna fan fic this. Okay. Why can't Michael Hosea just find. Angel / Sarah? And she left because right at the end, because she couldn't give him kids and that made her feel bad. And like, you know, she still feels so worthless,

Dr. Fry: So, yeah.

DL: And all that. So his love obviously didn't help her that much. Or she still feels so bad about herself.

Dr. Fry: Not to interrupt you, but also to interrupt you, there's that weird educational [00:39:00] suffering piece though, because like she leaves and it's this educational suffering that allows for Sarah to leave for San Francisco, because she has made him an idol, like, he's literally praying to God, like, why did you let her leave?

Why is she leaving? And he's essentially like, she made you an idol. Like that's why.

DL: So, so her idolatry of him had to be broken? It's also confusing, also confusing. Um, but she eventually finds out that Michael still loves her or something. So then she goes back to him, and that's how the book ends happily. I would love it if he just moved to San Francisco. 

Dr. Fry: Oh, the book ends

DL: And helped.

Dr. Fry: with their family with all of the biblical names.

DL: Oh, really? I didn't even read to that part.

Dr. Fry: Oh my god, the end, the epilogue, um, she bears like six children or something and they all become famous.

DL: Oh, well, yeah. That's not for prosperity gospel at all. 

Dr. Fry: Helen, don't worry. Don't worry. When they have 65 plus years of marriage and Hosea dies, [00:40:00] Michael Hosea dies and then she dies the next day, all they wanted on their tombstone was a single cross.

DL: Okay. I gotta, I gotta write that in my will. Now me and Krispin would saying thing he dies. I die the next day, crosses on her graves. Perfect. Perfect. I love it. Um, love is so much, but I, I just do think like why couldn't they have ended it in a way that wasn't all about the patriarchy and her finally submitting fully to Michael? And also, you know, she's somebody who experienced forced sterilization and then miraculously was able to have a ton of kids. Like that's so problematic.

Dr. Fry: Clara. So prophetic.

DL: Yeah. She gets the happy ending that we want for her. And so that's the, the tricky thing, right? This is a, this is why women read romance in general, is you,

Dr. Fry: We submit, we get what we want.

DL: Well, and you want a woman to have a happy ending. And so that's what this book wrote. Now, the Christian devotional element, right on [00:41:00] top of wanting to see a woman experience, a happy ending.

Um, I get the desire there. I get why it was powerful to people, but everything leading up to it is just basically legitimizing abuse. Um, you know, as a part of your story or else as a part of your redemption. And I'm just like, no.

Dr. Fry: Yep.

DL: No, no, no. And I, I, I just don't want that view of God for anyone.

Dr. Fry: It's a small view. Um, and I don't think God is that small. I just don't. Um, and you know, I, call Sarah a Jezebel all you want, but she wanted freedom. She wanted to have her own little cabin and heal on her own. I'm grateful this story has her healing, right. In, in whatever way, is that healing? I don't fully know.[00:42:00] 

Um, you know, she finds out that the divine purpose for her to have children and to be a wife is healing, great. For a lot of women, that is what they want. Um, but I, I cannot say the same for myself. And what ends up happening throughout the book is that is beaten into her. Not, not literally beaten, right. but verbally.

DL: But almost, I mean, Michael, Michael almost physically assaults her. Right? And, and says like, if I start hitting her, I won't stop. That's the only reason he doesn't, and stuff like that. I'm just like, I can't get over that. You know?

Dr. Fry: No, no. 

DL: I don't think I should get over it.

Dr. Fry: No, you shouldn't.

DL: Sometimes these books and like sometimes romance culture in general is like, oh, don't yuck somebody's yum. And just, you know, everybody finds different things sexy. And [00:43:00] I'm just like, no, I don't think it's ever.

Dr. Fry: I, I'm, if we're gonna get like real freaky here, like if it needs to be that you and your relationship needs to have like consensual non-consensual sex. Great. You do, you, I'm not gonna, as long as it's consensual non-consensual that, that is a thing.

DL: Oh, my gosh. I had no idea.

Dr. Fry: It is a thing.

DL: This is homeschooled Danielle talking here, right?

Dr. Fry: And this is, uh, doing too much research talking over here. Um, but. Uh, I, for somebody who has experienced trauma in any sort of way, personally, for somebody who has experienced trauma in that way, I, the idea of having my trauma healed through non-consent doesn't work, that framework [00:44:00] just doesn't hold. Um, survivors, um, especially, uh, survivors of sexual abuse of any kind, um, need to be heard. They need their needs to be met, and she vocalized her needs and they were not met.

DL: Yeah. And I think what's helped me is I've read, I have to read a few other Christian romance books for this season. And I started with Redeeming Love, went to the depths of despair,

Dr. Fry: No joke. 

DL: Had some panic attacks, um, not kidding. And I was like, is this what it's gonna be like from here on out? But you know what?

I think Francine Rivers was an anomaly. I think this is one of the worst of the worst to be perfectly honest. I read some others and I'm like, but this one gets into so much trouble for me by saying, first of all, conflating Sarah's trauma with sin and her choosing sin. And then we're supposed to just keep yelling at our minds at Sarah, just like Michael does like, Lord, why did you give you [00:45:00] such an impossible woman?

And when you're like, no, she's a traumatized woman. And that's, that's the stuff I don't see in these other Christian romance, the Jeanette Oak, like, yes, there's some kind farm men who just like slowly, slowly get these women to love them. And I'm like, I like that. That's fine. That is what would happen in the 1800s.

You know what I mean? In a society that didn't value women. What I hate about Redeeming Love, it's like, oh, she chooses these things. Michael's the only patient one. Like, and he does not listen to her. That doesn't mean it's all bad. Like, I feel like there's, there's element in the book where he's very focused on her experiencing sexual pleasure, you know, things that many evangelical women never grew up hearing.

And so, you're like, yes, you should, you should be married to someone who thinks you're freaking hot, who wants to, you know, do things with you and make you feel awesome. Like, that is fine. It's funny, and I don't wanna integrate at all, I think there's elements that show, um, [00:46:00] one of my, I just talked to, uh, someone, uh, who was saying like, I think for Francine Rivers, for evangelical women in the early nineties, like Michael Hosea actually was their version of a man who aggressively pursued consent.

That's an interesting way to look at it. That is not how I read it. 

Dr. Fry: No, no,

DL: That could have been true in 1991. So, I'll just say that benefit of the doubt. He's aggressively trying to pursue consent. That's not how I read it, but there's elements of that. So it’s tricky. 

Dr. Fry: I'm watching him aggressively walk over any semblance of consent.

DL: Yeah. That's how I more experienced it. 

Dr. Fry: I'm also waiting for somebody to like, um, make like a pretty quote,  Instagram of like the quote, where as soon as he finds out that she's a prostitute, it's just like in a cute little box with flowers. Like, “God, why her? Why not a gently reared girl untouched until her wedding night. [00:47:00] Why not a God-fearing widow, Lord send me a plain woman kind and enduring someone who would work at my side. Someone who will get dirt beneath her fingernails, but doesn't have it already in her blood.”

DL: Oh, and that's just how they view they, they talk about her all the time.

Dr. Fry: She's a spoiled dove.

DL: She's super-duper hot. 

Dr. Fry: So hot.

DL: And many times the book makes, it seemed like she really likes having sex with these men, which she obviously doesn't, it's so confusing. So awful. And it's, I also think Francine Rivers, coming off of some of these other Christian romance books where it like the plainness of the women and the men was like a part of the appeal.

Cause you don't talk about their bodies. You don't talk about how they look and Francine Rivers was like, no, these are a hot, these are a hot people. These are the beautiful people. Um uh, so yeah, I think, I [00:48:00] think it all kind of, you know, came together at a moment to make Christian women be like, oh my gosh. And then they felt free to share it with each other because that's another story of this book, is it was shared between moms and daughters and

Dr. Fry: Oh, it is essentially a gospel tract, right? Like,

DL: Because they were like, it's an allegory of Hosea.

Now, if it hadn't been an allegory of Hosea, I do not think this book would not have been shared.

Dr. Fry: You're probably right.

DL: Right? I mean,

Dr. Fry: It's pretty spicy. The spiciness that occurs in here does occur in the Bible. Like.

DL: But not like, but trying to romanticize that is so upsetting.

Dr. Fry: A little upsetting, especially when you have, um, Miriam at the threshing floor of Paul.

DL: Oh yeah. We can't even get into that subplot.

Dr. Fry: I can't even get into the parallel, I can’t.

DL: Somebody needs to rewrite the story of Miriam for me, because I just, I couldn't do it. She's like a 17-year-old who ends up marrying a man who raped, um, [00:49:00] Angel and then is redeemed, or is the element of Angel being redeemed. It's so awful. It's so messed up.

I can't, I can't go down that rabbit hole. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I can't do it, but,

Dr. Fry: I totally get it.

DL: I wanna know if you think, can we classify, Redeeming Love as Hosea fan fiction? Is that what this is?

Dr. Fry: I think if we're being honest about how things are non-consensual, sure, but you have to be honest about the abuses that are happening in the biblical text as well as in the book. And I don't think people are willing to do that.

DL: Yeah. And I think, you know, fan fic culture in general is really fascinating, right? Because in some ways, it's people utilizing their tools and their outsider status to write themselves into the story or write an ending they wanna see. And so I see Francine Rivers doing this, honestly, trying to come, trying to come to terms with her understanding of what it means to be a born again Christian, coming from her background as a romance writer, um, possibly seeing herself as really damaged and in need of love of God and [00:50:00] love of man.

Like I see her writing this, writing herself into the narrative, writing all this into the narrative. That doesn't mean it's not unproblematic, cause a lot of fanfic is. So, I'm not saying it's all good or all bad, but there's just this element that makes it so confusing, is she reclaimed some of it, and um, then perpetuated some really harmful narratives as.

Dr. Fry: Yep. But the hard part about the perpetuation of those narratives, is like those narratives, if you read Hosea literally, if you don't attempt to wrestle with the text in any sort of way, Hosea's also perpetuating terrible narratives, right? Like it is the catch 22 of like, we have to be honest about what is in the biblical text.

Um, and I hate doing that when it is so, uh, harsh. This is the reality though. And how do you say this is in our, this is in our scriptures, and we still see it as sacred. And yet [00:51:00] we can still go, what's going on here? We can still ask questions of God. We can still ask questions of the text. That's not unfaithful.

DL: How, how does the book of Hosea end? 

Dr. Fry: Um, well.

DL: You have your nice thick Bible right there.

Dr. Fry: Oh, journaling Bible too, so yeah. Yeah.

DL: You are very good Christian woman. Let me just tell you.

Dr. Fry: Best Christian. Oh, sorry. If I was really to be the best Christian, I'm the worst.

DL: Oh, that's true. I'm just a, a soiled worm.

Dr. Fry: Sorry. Um, the, the very last verse, “let whoever is wise, understand these things and whoever is insightful, recognize them for the ways that the Lord are right. And the righteous walk in them. But the rebellious stumble in them.” Essentially what happens throughout, um, after 1-3, which most scholars are gonna designate [00:52:00] as its own little thing, which is interesting because Hosea 1-3, 1-2, he's married to Gomer and then he's told to marry a prostitute again.

And we don't know if it's Gomer or another prostitute and throughout the rest of it are these various prophecies right. Of what is going to happen to Israel, what is going to happen to Judah? Um, what they have done. Um, uh, my specific research was on chapters 9 and 10. Um, as they talked about the sin of Gideon, which is the incident in Judges 19, um, like you have, you've crossed some lines, uh,

DL: The end of it is sort of like indicting Israel for harming that woman?

Dr. Fry: Um, I believe it is, uh, other people do not.

DL: Okay. Okay.

Dr. Fry: Um, and so it really is just a, a thing on interpretation there, and you really can, you can read Hosea through the lens [00:53:00] of yeah, he is, um, in fact, a mouthpiece of Yahweh he's an acting out this covenant, uh, properly, so, and yeah, he's gonna smite them down. Right? Um, and for sure, throughout prophecy, for the most part, most prophecy, but not all, is gonna have some bits of hope.

And I think that's lovely. Um, but for the most part, it is, uh, is a pretty damning piece. Um, and I believe that the text is depicting Hosea going through this process of going, what is happening all around me? Do I believe that God is acting justly? And do I believe that the people around me are acting justly?

DL: Yeah.

Dr. Fry: Um, like what part do all of us have to play in this, um, massive downfall that we're experiencing in history, um, which is hard. Um, ultimately, I believe that the sin of Gibea that happens in Judges 19 and is, is referenced in [00:54:00] Hosea nine through 10 is, um, the sin of othering. Um, how do we push people aside and, and claim them as less than, and, um, especially since women were so marginalized in those societies, it's best picked up through the body of a woman.

It really just is, um, But that's me. That's just me. Um, and that's through mainly a trauma lens, but that's,

DL: Wow. Okay. Well, is there anything else you wanna tell us about Redeeming Love? How do you feel now that I made you read it?

Dr. Fry: Oh, well I hated every moment of it. And actually, we're staying with some friends here in California, and I would read certain lines out loud, and they were like, please stop, please stop.

DL: Stop. Please. Stop.

Dr. Fry: And I'm like, can't, can't um.

DL: Gotta share my pain with somebody.

Dr. Fry: I love that you asked me to do it. And I was like, in the name of research, I will read whatever I need to read.

DL: Well, I can't even begin to thank you. [00:55:00] 

Dr. Fry: But I do have one piece that I feel like needs to be brought up. I, I didn't get to listen to the, um, to the podcast that you and Kristen had on the movie / book, but, um, I did wanna bring up, um, not only ask that we need to continue to ask questions, not only of the book, but also of the biblical text involving purity, gender and consent, freedom and agency.

Um, but we have to ask why we believe people, um, deserve to be treated so poorly as well. Like, um, even in Judges 19, um, many feminists try to say like, oh, well [Hebrew word] just means she left her house. So, she was being abused. Right. Well, why do we need to justify, like maybe she was being a prostitute? Like, why do we need to then justify that?

So, like, oh, if she was a prostitute, then she deserves to be gang raped and dismembered, right? Like why do we believe that people deserve to be treated so poorly? And I think we need to talk about that in general in [00:56:00] America, when it comes to the carceral complex, like yes, consequences to our actions, but punishment, but carceral mindsets? Um, like if Gomer wasn't a prostitute, if Angel wasn't a prostitute, um, then would be, be considering the treatment in the book a little differently? Would we? Um, so the binary of like virgin and whore unnecessarily brings about this conversation of who is rapeable and who isn't.

DL: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Fry: Um, like I believe that what happens to Angels sometimes in her own quote, unquote, marriage is rape.

And interestingly that hits hard on the intersections of purity culture and what it upholds as well, which is another facet of rape culture. Um, it just, but ironically, um, purity culture is mainly made out of, uh, white anxieties and fears. And so, I wanted to bring that up because, um, [00:57:00] regularly throughout the book there isn't a diverse crowd. Okay. Um, it's mainly white people. Um, but terms such as, and I, again, uh, this isn't pleasant, terms such as Oriental, and then the stereotypes of Indians who have stolen and killed, as well as Susanna at the end is going to help with the house of Magdalene. Right. And her father is saying then internally to himself, “I'm going to lose her after all, not to a wild, young zealot who intends to take her off into the wilderness and convert the heathen Indians, but to Angel and others like her.” Which yes, this depicts for sure that time period and what, why evangelicals actually believed for sure.

Um, but even Michael's discussion of his father and how he fled because a beautiful young slave girl was more of a temptation that he could handle after his father gave her to him. Sure, we have that glowing sentence that she throws in there that Michael would have freed everybody if he took [00:58:00] over. Right. But even the story about how one enslaved man was then freed, and then he had it worse than he, if he would've stayed, um, is something abhorrent.

So, you know, while Angel is white, and she's the soiled dove, she's Mara until she becomes deserving, there's a lot of conversation. Even throughout here, that's pretty steeped in, in, uh, white anxiety. Um, you know, how do we redeem Angel so that we can have quiverfull family and continue to spread the good news of our whiteness?

Um, it is subtle. and underneath all of it, but it that's kind of how I was raised as well. Right. Like in those churches, like, it's subtle. Sometimes it's not so direct, but sometimes it is direct like the heathen Indians, right, quote unquote. And I think we need to be careful in how we see even upholding purity culture, um, actually, uh, [00:59:00] I forget who wrote this, but how patriarchy moves hand in hand to uphold militarism, racism, oppression, and hierarchy. Um, and how that is subtle, but yet in here.

DL: Yeah, and I think you're so right. Um, and this is where Francine Rivers and Redeeming Love, you know, fit squarely in the overarching theme of Christian romance books. We look at the explosion of Amish romance. Um, we look at Janette Oak and her pioneer stories. Like they were all perpetuating whiteness in these ways, and they had these, you know, virginal women, you know, who helped carry it out.

And I, and so I think you're right, like Francine Rivers is squarely a part of that tradition; where she diverges is delving deeper into trauma and writing more, you know, erotica into her works. Right. And so, and so that's where its a little bit and I do think that's where it gets so tricky is, um, we want to honor women, we want to honor women [01:00:00] who find things of value in these stories. We're, while also critiquing them as patriarchal white supremacist manifest destiny narratives. Oh, so we can we, oh, see here folks. That's what we've trying to. So I think that's what we've been trying to do. Um, I do think it also deserves to be said that, uh, some women who have found such solace in this text of Redeeming Love and this novelization of the biblical book of Hagar do that because fundamentally they do see themselves as, um, soiled doves, as people who are deeply, deeply, um, just rotten at their core.

And that is really hard for me to, I want to, um, I want them to find healing and I just wish it didn't have to be at the expense of their own self-loathing, like that [01:01:00] self-loathing has to be a part of that narrative. I just find so sad. And, um, I, I just hope we have some better frameworks for us moving forward, where we can pursue love.

We can pursue, um, secure attachment, you know, even in a romantic relationship. I would wish that for everyone, you know, um,

Dr. Fry: Self-blame is such a powerful coping mechanism. It does bring back agency, but it's, it's ultimately not going to, to help heal. Um,

DL: I know. Isn't that the truth of it? Ugh. It's hard.

Dr. Fry: And I want that so badly for, for women. And again, because 12 years ago, or however long ago, it was that I read this, I did, I identified with Angel so much.

Um, and that was really beautiful for me and powerful for me. I remember tears streaming down my face as the book ended, um, as she's ripping off of her clothes and coming to her beloved, right? There's this essence of like, I am fully [01:02:00] before you.

DL: Wait, she rips off her clothes?

Dr. Fry: She comes back and she peels off layer by layer. Even her shoes, even her shoes, it makes a point.

DL: I'm just, why did I stop reading now? I'm questioning this.

Dr. Fry: There is that level though, of like, there is something beautiful about that, like that you're willing to come fully vulnerable before someone. Um, however, what if we could write a different narrative? Like, is there a different fanfic that we can create out of Hosea? Like I think imagination is so powerful and we have the opportunity to imagine something better.

DL: Oh, okay. Well, I think that's a good word to end it on. Anybody out there you feel called by the Lord to write some fanfic about Redeeming Love I say, go for it. Um, I'm not sure I will read it, but, [01:03:00] um, you do you boo. But thank you so much Dr. Fry, uh, for coming on here and talking to us and doing this hard work of reading these texts.

I appreciate so much your personal story. And also, just all the research you've done. We'll make sure to get a transcript of this so that we could get all those resources. Um, and you could probably send me a list of those too.

Dr. Fry: Oh, yes, absolutely.

DL: Thank you so much.

Dr. Fry: Well, thank you. This was fun. You mean as fun as it can be, right?

DL: I know we made, we tried, we made it fun. We made enjoyable. Thank you so much.

Dr. Fry: Thank you.[01:04:00]