Friends are Friends Forever
DL and Krispin talk about S1 E6 titled “What We Owe to Each Other.” We talk about the ethics (and exploitation) of promises, the TV show Friends, and much much more!
DL mentions the book Refusing Compulsory Sexuality: A Black Asexual Lens on Our Sex-Obsessed Culture by Sherronda J. Brown.
Also, here’s the interview with T.M. Scanlon where they ask him how he felt about their use of his book in The Good Place.
We use the audio from The Good Place Podcast.
Leave us a voicemail at (503) 912-4130 or send a voice memo to propheticimaginationstation@gmaill.com.
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You can follow The Bad Place Podcast on Twitter and Instagram. You can follow Krispin on Instagram here and Danielle on Instagram here.
Transcript
Ep 6
DL: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to This is the Bad Place, the podcast. Today we are talking about episode six. So, you know, halfway through this episode, we're exactly halfway through the season of season one of The Good Place. So that's exciting. And this episode has a great title. Do you remember what it is, Krispin?
Krispin: What we owe to each other.
DL: What we owe each, to each other, yes.
Krispin: I remember it 'cause I'm reading it.
DL: What we owe to each other. It's just like, such a good, like, ethical, philosophical title, right? I'm into it. What do we owe each other? This is like a question that has plagued me. No pun intended, because this really came up during the COVID years, but you know what I'm saying?
What we owe to each other. I'm the kind of person who spent my whole life thinking about that.
Krispin: Right, because, like, growing up in evangelicalism that's been very [00:01:00] individual and self serving to certain groups, You were like, but what about marginalized people?
DL: But, what about everyone who's not just like us?
And the weird thing about white Evangelicalism is that they don't give a rat's ass about anyone who's not like them. Yet, they say they do all the time. And so, growing up undiagnosed autistic in that world was very confusing, um, and I ended up just sort of... Uh, you know, being a Chidi and thinking about it all the time in my head
Krispin: I was thinking about that at some point Chidi says, you know, his brain is like having a fork in a, in a, uh, in a garbage disposal. Yeah.
DL: I think it, is that? In this season or next season?
Krispin: At some point. But if you've been watching along, you already know that about him.
Yeah. But I feel like that is for you, that was the grinding sound is like you're saying that you care about everyone and God is love and like it does not match your experience.
DL: Yes, but we'll get into that more when we talk about the ethical questions of this episode. For now, I just want to say, Chidi is really f Funny and [00:02:00] interesting in this episode. We'll get more to him. I love this episode because everyone's in it.
We get a nice little, you know, lots of little subplots. Lots of Michael being unhinged. But for now, I think maybe we should just have Mark Evan Jackson do a little synopsis of this episode. And he plays a character that is not yet in this show, but is coming. And this is from the Good Place podcast, the official one.
Krispin: Yeah, I had to leave in the part where he says his character because there's so, such gravitas when he says it.
DL: “and I play Sean.” Yeah, no, he does it better.
Marc Evan Jackson: I'm Mark Evan Jackson. I play Sean. Today we're discussing Season 1, Episode 6, What We Owe to Each Other. To recap, Michael enlists Eleanor to help him investigate what's wrong with the neighborhood. She tries to fulfill her promise of helping him, while not actually helping him realize she's the problem.
He ultimately concludes that he is the problem. Chidi agrees to third wheel a date between Tahani and Jianyu at a spa. He ends up [00:03:00] sera knowing Tahani to make her happy.
Krispin: So. I feel like that was a very succinct synopsis.
DL: That was too short.
Krispin: Right, because you said like, there are all these subplots, right? And basically, he's just like, Eleanor helps Michael figure out what the problem is without it. And then also Chidi, Tahani and Jianyu go on a couple's spa day.
DL: Yeah, well, Chidi gets roped in to helping Jason pretend that he's Jianyu and connect with Tahani. Yeah, so that's one subplot, and it's very funny. And then the other one is, yeah, Eleanor. Helping Michael because she said she would, and yet she's really also not trying to help him. But they kind of bond over the TV show Friends.
And that's something I really want to talk to you about, Krispin.
Krispin: Why do you say that?
DL: Um, well, we'll get into that in a minute, but first I want to talk about Watch and [00:04:00]Rewatch. When you first watched this episode when it came out in 2016, what did you think of it, Krispin?
Krispin: So there is this aspect in this episode where the way that Eleanor can help Michael figure out what the problem in the neighborhood is, is to confess that she's the problem.
And so then the question is like…
DL: Well, wait a minute. Is that really what we're thinking at this point?
Krispin: Yes. Uhhuh, , that's the whole thing is Michael's trying to figure out what's the problem in the neighborhood. She's like, I know I'm the problem in the neighborhood. So, how do I help him find out what the problem is without help, without helping him figure out what the problem is, right?
DL: But I'm saying, does she feel this pressure to confess or not at all? I don't think she does.
Krispin: I think she has an ethical thought of like, that is the ethical thing to do, but I can't do that. So what do I do instead? But I, I think that there, for me, there's this question of like, If Michael does find out [00:05:00] if she does, if Eleanor does confess, is there any place for mercy in this place? I assume not.
So I was thinking a lot about that when I first watched it because that really fit with my view of the afterlife at that time in 2016, which was kind of Difficult to reckon with like is do people get a second chance, you know So that was kind of my first Watch, how about for
DL: Yeah, for me, I think when I first watched this, I was mostly just thinking about the character dynamics and Chidi being the awkward third wheel is just really funny to me. That was something I thought about a lot. I also The first watch when I didn't know about the twist Michael discovering humanity was very funny to me And like all the things that make humans humans like paper clips wax lips, um And frozen yogurt, which we finally get to talk about frozen [00:06:00] yogurt. Yeah, karaoke like it was just so funny to me because And the show Friends, all of it to me is like the…Mediocrity. Human mediocrity. And how interesting that is.of Michael and what he's into as far as humans?
Krispin: that's interesting, cause yeah, there is this element of like, the joke sort of is like, this isn't that great and humans are so into it.
DL: Yeah, frozen yogurt, and karaoke, claw machines.
Krispin: Michael says, “this music plays, some pictures show up on the screen that have nothing to do with the song, some time passes, and it's over. It's great.”
DL: and he wins a minion. Uh huh. [00:07:00] Stuffed toy.
Krispin: “an ugly toddler with one eye.”
DL: And Eleanor's like, “it's a prize because the machine says it's a prize. Like that's why it's a prize, you know?”
Krispin: Right.
DL: being the, being the parent of an eight year old who's really into winning things from claw machines, that really stuck out to me.
Krispin: I think the bowling alley, I liked
DL: and like the laser lights going at the bowling alley. I was like, I feel slightly happy and slightly depressed just watching this, you know? Is that what it means to be human?
Krispin: I mean, that is a really interesting thing. He says, like, you are trying to, humans are trying to figure out how to have as much fun as possible.
DL: watching friends.
Really? All that fun. Can we talk about the friends of it all?
Krispin: Yes, it was the only joy in my life during a difficult time
DL: Yeah, tell me. Tell me. Everything about your history with the show,
Krispin: so I was a missionary kid. And you
DL: you were. And... Little colonizer.
Krispin: I was along for the ride.
DL: It wasn't you, I [00:08:00] mean, it wasn't your fault.
DL: you did not ask to do that. You were unwillingly dragged...
Krispin: Yes. Mm
DL: this. So there we go. Exactly.
Krispin: I was like, let's get deep into it. When my parents told us, I went into the bathroom and wept.
DL: that's so sad.
Krispin: Um, but, oh, we'll cut that part.
DL: No, don't cut that part, No, you dare. It's a very important backstory to your relationship with friends.
Okay.
Krispin: That's true.
DL: It's lore. That's what the kids call
Krispin: Uh huh. Yeah. Right. So, um. Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean to to make a whole narrative of it when I was 12 my parents were like we're moving to China I Remember is at dinner.
DL: you’re from Southern Oregon. Let's also put that out there
Krispin: Uh huh, a small like logging capital of the world at one point sort of small town. I Remember thinking I'm gonna leave all my friends I'm going to be really sad, I, I excused myself from the table and just went to the bathroom and cried for a while.[00:09:00]
I went to China, I did have some friends for a couple of years, but by the time you're like 16 or 17 years old, so many parents would take their kids back to their country of origin because they want their kids to go to high school there or whatever. Um, so I ended up basically having no friends.
Right. Uh huh.
DL: your parents were pastors were, not pastors, were principals of an international school. So that's your community. Uh huh, yeah. So,
Krispin: Yeah. So like most of the other teenagers were taken back to their home countries. I didn't really have any friends left. Um, so every morning I would just wake up and watch probably like three episodes of Friends and Friends were my friends and laugh and feel, you know, emotionally engaged and, you know, and I'm sure people that are listening like know, some of you probably know this, right?
When you don't have a lot of social interaction and you watch a TV show because it feels like social interaction. So [00:10:00] that is my association with Friends.
DL: Michael and you are similar, and you probably understood all the references Michael made to friends in the episode
Krispin: right.
DL: Should I, can I ask you right now? Uhhuh . Who are you? Are you a Ross?
Krispin: Oh, I'm a Ross. I'm totally a Ross
DL: You're Ross?
Krispin: Yes. Uh huh.
DL: I'm not sure exactly what any of this means. Who am I?
Krispin: You are a Phoebe.
DL: Mmhmm. Yes. Interesting. Right. Okay. I've watched some Friends, as you know. And I tried. This is my, like, lore. I was homeschooled, isolated, and Friends was, like, my dad preached sermons against Friends. how many STDs those people would have. Based on the amount of sex they had in that show. You know, so that's what I was hearing.
Right. I mean, I remember that was a thing. Of, like, younger generations starting to
Krispin: And friends, and showing it to their parents, and
DL: everybody's extremely [00:11:00] malnourished in that show. so much fatphobia. It's very homophobic. Like, it's not funny and I always thought that when I tried to watch it. You and I have tried a little bit and I'm like, I hate this. You know? So, yeah. Yeah. Like going back for a rewatch. So you, you found other comfort shows. I just thought it was funny to point that out.
Now let's go to rewatch. What stood out to us as we are watching it now in 2023?
Krispin: So I cannot get out of my head this idea of Michael as the Narcissistic pastor.
DL: Okay. Let's get into it.
Krispin: So just that aspect of he's so stressed out. He's right. He's pulling everybody else in. He's like, the stakes are so high. This has to work. Even this element of like, if I don't make you happy, then I'm a failure.
DL: he said, uh, my promise to you was to keep you [00:12:00] safe and happy. Mm hmm. And if I'm failing at that, like, I'm in big trouble.
Krispin: Exactly. So the implicit message there is feel safe and happy, right? Um, I think anyway, but yeah, just, just the stress that he brings out in everyone in himself. Um, but the other thing that really stood out to me is, um, this. This idea of soulmates is a big theme here. There's a couple of points where this comes up.
One is Tahani and Jianyu going to the spa, right? And Chidi being the third wheel. And kind of this like, no, but couples are two people, not three people. So there's this idea of like, this is the way it should be. It should feel good, but it's not working out, right? And they're supposed to be soulmates. Um. And what's interesting too is at one point, Chidi and Tahani sit down as though they are soulmates at this cafe and they're [00:13:00] bonding.
And so there's this like clear aspect where like who the people that are supposed to be soulmates are not soulmates, but in the system, it's saying it's supposed to be this way. And so Um, I was just really struck by that like everyone's in this system where it's like we've determined what the best way is and this is just what it is and you don't have a say in it.
Everyone's relationships end up forked up.
DL: Oh, you're, you're so good at doing the fake, uh, swearing. Okay, so my personal belief is that all this stuff about relationships and soulmates is just a big smokescreen to keep people distracted from what's actually going on in the show.
And, cause like, if those elements were taken out, you might just get too stressed or too uncomfortable with what's going on with Michael and Eleanor. So I'm like, it's also like, in a way, making fun of compulsories. Like, sexuality, and that having to be a part of the good place, and the [00:14:00]pressures, and all that.
Uh, shout out to a book I have just started reading, which is all about compulsory sexuality, and, um, I think everybody should read it. Let me try and, oh, here we go. It's by Sharonda J. Brown and it's called Refusing Compulsory Sexuality, a Black Asexual Lens on our Sex Obsessed Culture. So I am starting to read that book which made me kind of think about this Uh, soulmate, third wheel plot line a little bit differently and I, I think that's interesting to me.
I will say, re watching it, Chidi being so awkward and so, like, easily pressured to do something if somebody tells him it's the ethical thing to do. It's very autistic coded to me. Just very autistic coded. Like him awkwardly trying to help but just doing it so badly. And, um.
Krispin: Like, at one point he's giving Jianyu / [00:15:00] Jason a massage, but he's just tapping his fingers on Jason's, like, back.
DL: and so Jason is like Chidi you have to come to this spa day thing with me and Tahanni 'cause I can't do it. And she's like, I don't wanna do it. Then he like talks himself into it by being like, Uh oh, Tahani is actually in the same awful situation I'm in, right, where she's paired with someone who's not actually her soulmate, but she doesn't know.
So is that worse than me? Or is it not? And he says, is ignorance bliss or will the painful truth actually be healing? I was like, Oh my God, that's my brain. I'm always wondering like, is ignorance bliss or is like Is it actually more healing to tell people the truth of it or even to, uh, try and find the truth, even if it might be painful.
DL: where do you think I fall on that….
Krispin: Spectrum?
DL: Spectrum. Yes, the painful truth is [00:16:00] healing. Okay, and where do you think you fall? Cause in this instance, Chidi is like Ignorance might be bliss. So he tries that. know what I mean? Right.
Krispin: I mean, I think it just really depends on the different scenarios. But I do think that there's this element of facing the truth that is really important. And I think about even this, like the whole idea, the whole scheme here is for Jianyu to pretend like he's Jianyu and not Jason, right? And like how harmful that is and how that really gets in the way of them figuring out what their relationship is.
They're both hoping, right? They're both hoping to be, at least she's hoping for a soulmate, but without that information, they can't figure out what this relationship is.
DL: Yeah. Um, it's funny because you don't see a lot of like Jason and how he feels about Tahani except one line, which I loved so much on this rewatch,
Krispin: Yes![00:17:00]
DL: which he's just like, Tahani is like as beautiful and smart and well spoken as Nala from the Lion King! That just So stood out to me. Did you ever have like, a crush on a Disney character?
Krispin: On like a animal?
DL: I mean it could be any, but yes.
Krispin: Probably all of them.
DL: I mean obviously for me, I was obsessed with Robin Hood. And I still am. Steal from the rich and give it to the poor. A fox, too. He's cute. Um, but yeah, so I just thought that was such a, such a funny little tidbit. I mean, you asked that question on who I heavily identified
Krispin: yeah, so I just thought that was such a, such a funny little tidbit.
DL: You're a romantic guy. Okay, well, any other favorite things about this episode you want to, you know, put in here right
Krispin: Um, I [00:18:00] love that, um, at one point Michael gets excited because he's figured out, uh, who might be the problem in the neighborhood. And he gets so excited he pours paperclips over Eleanor's head.
And I just thought it was really funny because that's like the subtle form of torture.
DL: Paperclips on the head?
Yes.
Krispin: you can tell she's so annoyed and out of all the things that just like It just captures this moment of her being like, I'm in trouble and also someone is pouring paperclips over my head. Maybe just as a sensory sensitive person, I'm like, that sounds like torture,
DL: Oh, I know, paperclips give me like a shiver. Um, okay, my, I think one of my favorite things is Michael's like depression hoodie. I really identify with the depression hoodie. I have a gray hoodie, and I put the hood up. Yeah, you know, just,
Krispin: And I love that he says I'm giving up, like they gave up in season eight of friends when they were all out of ideas and they, for no reason put Joey [00:19:00] and Rachel together.
DL: How did you feel about the Joey and Rachel plot line as a kid?
Krispin: It was weird. It was very weird. And you know, out of all the friends you're rooting for Ross. So it feels weird to like root for one friend against another.
DL: Yeah. It's so true.
Krispin: You know, it was just hard in my, in my friend group at that time, you know, there was so much drama going on with all my friends.
DL: Okay. Well, okay, so another of my favorite things about this episode is just how this show is trying to take these big picture, ethical, and like, Moral philosophy questions and cram them into this little comedy.
So, I mean, this is kind of going to be a nice segue into This is the Bad Place, uh, where we talk about growing up evangelicalism and what stood out to us. Okay, so this episode is titled after an actual book by an actual person named T. M. Scanlon. And he wrote a book called What We Owe to Each Other. [00:20:00] And... I love how Chidi is trying to explain contractualism to Eleanor in the beginning. If two people agree, like, “That's what is going to be good for both of us, like you need to uphold that contract and then you are being good, right? And Eleanor's, and he kind of makes it in like a democracy way, right?
And then we all vote on what's good and then we all uphold those good. And then Eleanor's like, well, I'll just pass a vote. So everybody has to do what I think is good. And Chidi’s like, “that's Tyranny”
Krispin: And it's generally frowned upon.
DL: So I'm like, yay, this is my special interest. Democracy versus tyranny or authoritarianism.
It's like, right here. And Eleanor is so quick to point out the flaws, I believe, in these abstract, you know, moral philosophy questions. what do We owe each other? It's like, well, how can you even have these conversations if one person is [00:21:00] rigging it? So that only certain votes matter and only certain people's ideas of what is good and what we're all upholding matter.
Does that make sense? Yeah. And so I think this show is so clever and so smart and it's setting that up in this tiny little exchange at the beginning, right? What is democracy versus what is tyranny? So that's what I think this is about. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that?
Krispin: I really thought about this idea of promises because that comes up over and over
DL: Over and over
Krispin: It's like being a good person is keeping your promises. And I was thinking about how, uh, toxic, unhealthy systems exploit the idea of promises
DL: Thank you. That's what I want to talk
Krispin: Right, and so I know you want to talk about it politically But I want to is it okay if we start with it in like a granular like family or friend level
DL: and also to point out I the show does both of that so it flashes back to this Example of Eleanor agreeing to dog [00:22:00] sit for a dog and so like that's the personal
Krispin: For a friend.
DL: for a friend.
Yes,
Krispin: She didn't agree to the dog, but...
DL: And you know and hilarity ensues when she goes back on her word. So I think the show has that, like, personal lens, but then it also has the systematic when we're looking at Michael and, and things with Eleanor, but before we do that, I'm just gonna, I'm going to actually read something about what contractualism is and that's T.
M. Scanlon's What Do We Owe Each Other? This is all coming from contractualism. It says contractualism appeals to the idea of a social contract. It attempts to derive the content of morality and in some versions, the justification for holding that we are obligated to follow morality from the notion of an agreement between all those in the moral domain.
Thank you. So that's it. We all agree,
Krispin: right? To
DL: this is what is best for everybody and we all uphold that social [00:23:00] contract. And that is what makes you a good person in whatever society you're in. So that's what we're talking about here. Okay, now you, you
Krispin: yeah, so I mean, I talk to my clients about this a lot, about this idea of basically like, you don't have to keep your promises.
Now that sounds weird to say, but what I mean is…. If you grew up in a, uh, a family system where you just automatically agree to things, right, you automatically submit or you automatically are like, yeah, I'll do that. It is okay to come back to someone later and say, “Hey, actually, I was thinking about it, and this doesn't fit for me.” Like “I can't help you move on Saturday,” right? You need to communicate that you need to like, be clea. But I think a lot of, um, ways that power is wielded is people will say, well, you said this, you said you were going to do this, or you said you were going to do that. And I think this even goes back to the soulmate thing.
Right, because it's [00:24:00] like, because I agreed to this at some point in my life, maybe when I was under the pressure of someone, then I have to live it out the rest of my life. You know, I think that it really brings up that question. And I think you're going to kind of get at this. But like, when we make these agreements under the pressures of an oppressive system, right, then it's sort of like, okay, well, you figured out that this system is oppressive, or doesn't work, but you said you're going to do it.
So you need to keep following it through. Exactly.
DL: And I think that's the thing that's just so sticks out to me and it seems like Eleanor, right, has this also intrinsically….This whole thing of, we all uphold this idea of a social contract, we all commit to it. It's like, but what if there are bad faith actors
Krispin: And, right. And what if we as individuals did not have any say in what that social contract was? What if it was set up centuries ago, right?
DL: I mean, exactly. And so I think this show is trying to get [00:25:00] people to think through some of these things. And for us growing up in white evangelicalism, it's really sobering to be like, Oh, I actually was pressured into making a social contract, like an explicit one.
Krispin: Mm hmm.
DL: At a vulnerable time in my life, and then the pressure to uphold that is enormous. So this is like, for me, this is getting into like, you might have religious trauma if territory, but I just want to say like, I was six years old, right? And I was the child of a pastor. And my mom was obsessed with God too.
And so I can remember just. Being told about God and God sending Jesus to die for my sins and how I owed God, like my entire life, like the gift of life for one, but then I owed God my actual life and
Krispin:
DL: not just my life and what I did with my life, but [00:26:00] my every thought, my every action, every book I read, how I wouldn't watch Friends, you know what I mean?
Like, I owed God everything. How much did you hear that? Sentiment that you owed God everything. Oh, yeah all the time, right?
Krispin: you know, we talked in one of our Patreon only episodes, we talked about my online magazine when I was a teenager. And I talked about like, if you play sports, like you're not taking Jesus seriously enough, because you should be spending every moment of your life evangelizing or worshiping God.
DL: Yeah, and I don't know how people who didn't grow up in a cult like white evangelicalism, like, I don't know if it's as explicit this you do owe everything to this deity. And in order to be good in this social construct, you have to prove over and over again, right? That you are [00:27:00] serving this God, you are honoring this God, you never change.
And that's the thing. I was six when my mom finally sat me down and was like... Do you want to get baptized? Do you want to dedicate your life to Jesus Christ and live the rest of your life for Jesus? Do you believe this is true? And as a six year old, you're like, Yeah, I guess it's true because you're telling me and you're my parent and this seems incredibly important to you and you're telling me the stakes are, if I'm going to go Be in heaven with you when I die or go to hell and so yes, I believe and I believe you're right I believe this is good news I believe it's a really good thing for me to dedicate the rest of my life to God And so I was baptized when I was six Both my parents were so pleased and so proud of me.
And then that moment was held up the rest of my life to be like, see, you're a Christian, you chose this, you dedicate your life to God. And that was used to pressure me into becoming a missionary, devoting everything to God. And it was also used to pressure me if I ever had any doubts at all about this religion, it's [00:28:00] like, no, be a Christian.
Like, this is what we believe. This is what we, you know what I'm saying? Right.
Krispin: All about this comes up a lot in religious communities where people say you are changing and that means you are not an ethical person, right? So like you used to. You know, whether it's like you used to read the Bible this way, right? Or you used to hold these values or you used to live your life this way.
And now you're changing. And I think outside of this framework, you can say like, yeah, that's because people grow and they change and they develop. Right. But in this contractual ism where things are set up beforehand, it's like, no, like you are doing something wrong because you are, in a sense, like breaking a promise.
Right.
DL: do you have a good experience, like, to illustrate that and that kind of pressure you experience, maybe?
Krispin: So in the flashback, we see that Eleanor makes a promise and then she breaks that promise because it is easier for her, it's inconvenient for [00:30:00] her to to stay and watch the dog, right? And we would all say, like, that is selfish. That is immoral. That's unethical. But this same approach gets, um, gets put on people that are leaving their faith community, for example, right?
You just care about what's convenient for you. You're selfish. You're just thinking of yourself. And it's like you're breaking the contract of like, you, you, we've all agreed that we have to serve God with our lives, or we have to obey God or whatever. And by you thinking about yourself, and what you want your life to look like, and like, taking on autonomy as an adult, in a healthy way is what I would say, you're breaking the contract that we have all agreed to.
And I'm mad at you. This is threatening. I think this also comes up in families, right? Like, I gave birth to you. I, I took care of you for 18 years. So you need to, you know, meet my needs. I mean, in unhealthy families, right? Like, this is a [00:31:00] contract that you couldn't could not. This is a contract you had no choice in.
But the assumption is like, we're all under the same terms here. And you're breaking the contract because you're selfish because you're just thinking of yourself, etc.
DL: and so for us, being parents of a 8 year old, we've really experienced, Oh, we are parenting in such a different way. The contract has to be negotiated by all parties. For it to be actually something people can, um, actually commit to.
Krispin: to. Otherwise
DL: it's coercion, right? And, and so since we're committed to not coercing our kids, like, things have to be renegotiated, um, all the time.
And I think that leads to healthier families. That doesn't mean, you know, it's like, Permissive willy nilly ness over here, but we actually talk through things and we change things as they're needed. I mean, another example that came to mind is like purity culture and purity rings. So when I was 13, I got a purity ring from [00:32:00] the Christian bookstore.
My dad gave it to me, you know, and I was supposed to wear that until I got... Married to a man and then had sex for the first time with that man. Then I could take, you know, I'd have a wedding ring,
Krispin: And that man is me.
DL: Do you remember if I was still wearing it when I cuz I was definitely pure. I'm I was Chidi all the way. This is the social contract I was born into but again
Krispin: I mean, purity culture works really well for demisexual people, I think
DL: And autistic people But think about if you're not demisexual. Think about if you're not, like this is a social contract put on you by patriarchal men like my parents would be like, you wanted the ring.
You, maybe you even asked for it. I'm like, yeah, cause everyone was doing it. That's what I was pressured to. It would make you happy. You told me this was from God. So yes, I believed it, you know, and just thinking like that. [00:33:00] These social contracts and contractualism can be so exploited by people with power, and it just makes me so upset when like moral philosophy doesn't seem to take that into consideration.
Krispin: Well, it's interesting. the couple therapist in me thinks about this part because I run into a lot of couples that are like, we recognize that even getting married is not a guarantee that we're going to stay together forever. What do you do when you can't say yes, I promise I will stay with you forever because we just know that that's not.
You know the reality that we can guarantee that and then they have to go through this process that I think is a really healthy process of saying like, yeah, we need to communicate honestly with each other day by day about where things are at and like address problems. We can't just lean back on like Well, this is the structure.
So we just need to push forward, which I think hits on that soulmates theme in this episode, [00:34:00]right? We're soulmates. So we can't like pretend like anything's wrong.
DL: Well, here's the other thing. What Chidi and Tahani and Jason and Eleanor are all experiencing, even with this issue of soulmates, is tyranny. One Man, with all the power. Michael, right, has assigned people, and they just have to trust him that they, he got it right, and because he's like, Ted Danson in a bow tie, they do, and then it causes so much pain for everyone. Like, there's no consent, you know what I mean? But they're just shoved into this social, and everyone around them is acting and pretending like it works, so then they're like, okay, I have to do this.
Krispin: Mm hmm. Right. Yeah, and I think so much for about John you Jason where he's like I have to just literally not be myself in order for this to work.
Mm hmm
DL: that to
Krispin: Right. Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm like, I recognize this is a tender topic but I think it [00:35:00] is you know in terms of this like When you get married under this under this idea of like this is you know, especially
DL: Oh, so, so white evangelicals, right? Yes. If you get married, you're married for life. Right. No one leaves.
Krispin: You're making promise to that third strand, which is God, right?
DL: and your community. That's why you need to get married in a church, in front of everybody you know.
Krispin: Right, exactly. And so then for, for some part like it and it plays out in different ways, right? Sometimes it's like, okay, well, we're married. So like, we don't have to talk about our relationship. We just like are gonna, you know, we'll just stay there forever, which doesn't usually work for the partner that has complaints about the relationship.
You know, it is it is tyranny. It's like, the autonomy is taking out like, this is your role, you need to fulfill your role for the rest of your life. And again, we are often assigned to these roles.
DL: When we're very young and very impressionable. Mm hmm. Yes. Yes. And so, it's a big deal. I'm feeling overwhelmed just as we're talking about it.
Krispin: I [00:36:00] mean, let's, let's just be clear, we're working on a project right now about evangelical parenting and thinking a lot about what are the long term impacts and what are the ways that growing up, uh, evangelical, um, sets your life on a path that it feels like you don't have autonomy even when you get into your thirties and
DL: And a huge theme that emerges is people being pressured into marriages at a very young age, and it being such a huge source of strife and. Shame and then you have kids in the mix like it's really complicated. So, uh, that is a huge issue for people who grew up in high control environments and authoritarian movements, which, which we believe white evangelicalism is.
So, that's my like, you might have religious trauma if You agreed to uphold the social contracts, you know, to please your parents, the actual people who are supposed to be in charge of taking care of you, that you're biologically predispositioned to believe are good and will take Like, you know what I mean?
The levels of [00:37:00] coercion are just wild. But what how would you say it? You might have religious trauma if...
Krispin: You...
I feel like you're walking around all the time like you have to confess something, but you don't want to confess it because it's going to have negative consequences and you're not going to belong anymore in the place, which is the place that Eleanor is at. So even though like emotionally, she's very like self protective, like, I don't think she has a guilty conscience about it.
But she sort of knows like, in order for me to be a good person, I should be telling Michael that I'm the problem. But I don't want to do that because I don't want to be excluded.
DL: Okay. Okay, it's time for DL's Fun Facts. Okay, so a weird subplot in this episode is Impressionist Painters and Impressionist Paintings, which I actually love. I love the Impressionists. Um, Van Gogh. is my boy, okay? Um, but they talk about Edgar Degas, uh, in like, the ballerina paintings and that's a whole subplot.
Well, my fun [00:38:00] fact is, Edgar Degas is in the bad place because he was a raging misogynist who was obsessed with watching young girls in physical pain at the Paris Ballet and he Described himself as a voyeur, right? And he called them his little dancing monkeys. And he also said, I, I mean, women don't like me because I view them as animals.
Also, he was horribly anti semitic. He's in the bad place. I just want to put that out there. Okay, another fun fact.
Krispin: just want to FYI. If you ever care about art, music, movies, don't let D. L. do any research.
DL:Anywho, that's, that's, that's one thing. Okay. So another [00:39:00] fun fact is that the Crimson Review, which is like a Harvard publication, they reached out to TM Scanlon and interviewed him about how he felt about his book being referenced on the good place. Cause he's still alive. And so I thought that was awesome.
And he was like, They did a good job. And basically they found out about his book because he taught this really brilliant woman who became an advisor to it. Then, of course, Mike Schur read his whole book and he's like, yeah, he basically got it really right. And he's like, I felt nervous, you know, watching it almost like I was a parent at like a school recital and you're like, is this going to be embarrassing or is this going to be gray or, you know, and I thought this was really cute what he said.
They said, like, is there a character you identify with in the show? He said, well, how can I identify with any character other than Chidi? Actor William Jackson Harper gets a lot of credit for this. He really captures a certain kind of academic character. Indecisive, concerned to sweat the details in a way that other people don't even bother with.
and a certain kind of earnestness. He really gets [00:40:00] it. I just hope that being like that isn't going to be made too much fun of. I just thought that was and I don't think they make fun of Chidi. I think they actually highlight his, his anguish and how inwardly, You know, tormented he is in some ways, but he's also a beautiful, earnest, smart, you know.
Krispin: He's very likable.
DL: very likable. and I just thought that was like, so cute that TM Scanlan is watching the show, like, loves it, um. Another one of my favorite fun facts is that I couldn't keep up with all the mentions of celebrities in this episode because there's so many, but my favorite one is probably Jason when Tahani is asking him like, do you like any impressionists or like any art?
And he's like, well, people change the game.
Krispin: Okay,
DL: In one of the scenes and the titles one was [00:41:00] called all chocolate everything and the other was called all the books and I was like damn Sounds amazing.
Krispin: liked the spa was called the Good Face Spa
DL: I liked painting of a famous impressionist by which he means a comedian who does impressions. Frank Cagliando who is a real person who does real impressions that I had never heard of but I guess he's famous I was like, his name sounds familiar but I don't know if that's because I've watched The Good Place before I don't know, I loved all that, amongst the anguish
Krispin: Speaking
of the anguish, uh, we have a listener question. So we heard from Christiana and, um, she talked about relating to Chidi because of Chidi having to face this idea of like his life's work was in vain. [00:42:00] Um, and she grew up a missionary kid and reflecting on her parents and how much they sacrificed.
And then coming to this conclusion that hell isn't real or hell wasn't what her parents thought it was. And then the grief that comes with like, I grew up in this, I gave so much, my parents gave so much. And it's really hard to, to make this ideological change because it, like, what does it mean for all the sacrifice they put in?
And so she talks a little bit about that.
Caller: If there's no danger of hell, then my parents life's work is in vain. Makes so much sense of why it is so hard for people to leave this framework if it calls your life's work into question. So, I'm feeling very, very sad while I'm watching this show. But in a way that makes me feel tender and broken open to the world, in the words of Mary Oliver.
Thank you so much for reminding [00:43:00] us all about this and for encouraging to rewatch and I'm so excited to keep listening along. Thank you both for everything you do. Bye bye.
DL: Yeah, I mean, one thing that comes to mind immediately is Michael, in this episode, they're talking about frozen yogurt. I finally get to go on my frozen yogurt rant right now. You ready, Krispin? Michael is talking about frozen yogurt and he said, cause Eleanor's like, have you ever had ice cream? Like, why is there so much frozen yogurt?
And he's like, there's something so human about taking something great and ruining it so you can have more of it. And I was like, oh, that's. Christianity in a way, I'm not saying is great at its core. At the same time, there's, there's no doubt that, uh, the person of Jesus has shaped history in so many ways, like teachings, but also.
The whole kit and caboodle, right? Of an, of an organized religion. And I just think like, that is what missionaries do, [00:44:00] right? They ruin it so they can have more of it. Like, the whole point is to get more people to tie to your church, to vote people who are, you know, wanting to privilege and prioritize you into office, like...
Krispin: I mean, I keep on thinking about this because the idea of heaven is a pretty sweet idea to go with the ice cream metaphor, right? Like, yeah, like, we will be together again, like there's an end to suffering, right? And then evangelicalism takes that idea of an afterlife and makes it slightly sour, or very sour, right?
DL: It's very sour! Right? It's disgusting!
Krispin: Uh, just like frozen yogurt and uses this, you know, comforting idea to really scare people and gain power in the
DL: Yeah, and it's funny. The frozen yogurt of it all. I didn't even think about this, but Michael's basically saying probably in the concept of like diet culture, right?
Krispin: ice cream's great, but if you know, I don't know.[00:45:00]
TCBY was a big deal to my mom in the 90s. You know what I mean? Like, and she was really into diet culture. So I'm assuming there was some sort of marketing around frozen yogurt is better for you. It's healthier. It's not as quote unquote bad for you as ice cream and you can eat more of it, which is like, well, why do you want to eat more of something that's sour?
Krispin: Like,
DL: if you want frozen yogurt, great. Have a little bit of it,
Krispin: you want you know,
DL: not to eat that instead of ice cream because you don't want to be fat. Like that is. It's probably accurate, probably true, um, so there's many angles this, this frozen yogurt can get to, but I think the frozen yogurt overall is this, this idea, like pay attention to your intuition in these situations where you've been born into social contracts.
If you've been born into one as a white person, if you've been born into one as an American, if you've been born into one as an evangelical Christian, like notice,
Krispin: as a man.
DL: yeah. Or a woman, like, and notice what is [00:46:00] sour. Okay, and what sourness have you just had to deal with and swallow in order to, like, keep going and to uphold these contracts that you didn't actually make?
And guess what? We're human fucking beings and we get to renegotiate these contracts at any moment. We really do. Even, I love this, god bless it, gender.
Krispin: right?
DL: it's like a really exciting time to be alive, and yet the people who created these social contracts that we were born into are really upset at people developing autonomy and doing just that.
Um, they want us to just eat their frozen yogurt and think it's amazing, so.
Krispin: I'm pretty sure people have bingo cards at this point of like, DL's going to talk about fascism, trans rights. I do! Before we move on! I only talk about tyranny and authoritarianism!
DL: I only talked about tyranny and authoritarianism because I'm so cool and I'm so moderate and yeah, [00:47:00] exactly.
Krispin: before we move on from this listener question, I just want to say thanks to Christiana for sharing that because I think it just really names something, which is there is a lot of grief and sadness that comes with leaving an ideology that you have dedicated a religion, a faith community, whatever
DL: that your parents keep telling you they sacrificed everything for. Right,
Krispin: Yeah. And also probably a lot of people have given a lot of themselves to this as well, and so I
DL: we certainly have.
Krispin: right, exactly. So I just really appreciate acknowledging that grief that comes up.
DL: Yeah, totally. Okay, well now let's, we gotta end on a nice note.
Let's talk about, this is a good place. What are, what are some things that are giving us hope and humanity these days? Do you want to go first? I should go first? Okay. Well, I, it's funny that you mentioned that. Trans people give me hope for humanity is, oh my [00:48:00] God, am I predictable, Christopher? Do you think I'm predictable?
I kind of am. Okay. So I'm really into this podcast called Joe's Boys, which talks about, um, Louisa May Alcott who wrote Little Women and just... Basically, the history of Lou Alcott, as they like to be known, um, you know, and just a lot of trans joy in rereading, uh, Little Women. So that's awesome. And then I just bought this book that is definitely not helping.
Hope and Humanity in some ways, but in other ways it is. It's called, oh, what is it called? Hell Followed With Us, and it's by Andrew Joseph White, who is a trans man who, um, definitely seems to have a relationship or was born into white evangelicalism where, you know, currently trans youth in particular, right, are seen as like the biggest evil and the biggest menace to society.
So this book I saw at our local bookstore, which, Our local bookstore also gives me hope and humanity. Um, it was basically like, do you need to let out some [00:49:00] rage, like, at all the transphobia legislation happening, then read this book. And I was like, sold!
Krispin: And so
DL: so it is helping, but I just think the author's really cool.
And he gives me hope for humanity. So I, I encourage people to find trans authors, trans content creators. Um, they're so awesome.
Krispin: They're so awesome. Mm hmm. Yeah, for me, what's giving me hope in humanity right now is Gen Z setting boundaries. Oh! I just, over the last couple of weeks, have heard various stories of people that, um, have raised their kids to like set boundaries and have some autonomy and like setting that with boomer grandparents.
So good job us. Good job millennials
DL: For facilitating?
Krispin: facilitating this. It gives me hope and humanity that many of us are raising kids that have a sense of boundaries and a sense of autonomy, um, which is really
DL: is really beautiful.[00:50:00]
Right. I'm so excited about
Krispin: Yeah, those things. Mm hmm. Right. I'm so excited about next episode because it's gonna bring up some like hell
DL: so we've had so many listener questions about Hell, which we love, so we'll probably play a few next week.
Krispin: Well, here's the thing, I think that the next episode talks a lot about like scapegoat sort of stuff and like, you know, punishment, but we have such a backlog of hell voicemails that we're going to do our next spoiler sode, which isn't a spoiler sode
Krispin: Our next we're going to do our next patron only episode.
So, um, with a lot of these voice mails about
DL: of the bad place and we're just going to get into it so that's great if you're listening please send us any of your questions comments concerns you can leave a voicemail you can email us [00:51:00] uh dm us on our instagram account
Krispin: All those details are in the show notes. You can find them easily.
DL: we love listening to y'all um and if you really want to rush in and get one in about hell do it now because we're going to be doing that for our patrons next.
Krispin: Thanks ya’ll.
DL: Take it sleazy.
Krispin: Say it again. Take it sleazy.
