White Lies & Red Boots

DL and Krispin talk about S1 E7 titled “The Eternal Shriek.” We talk about how being polite isn't always the most ethical decision. We also talk about eschatology and how Kant was a a lonely, obsessive hermit with no friends.

We use the audio from The Good Place Podcast.

Leave us a voicemail at (503) 912-4130 or send a voice memo to propheticimaginationstation@gmaill.com.

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Transcript

Krispin: [00:00:00] Welcome back y'all! Today we are talking about episode 7, The Eternal Shriek. Really getting into it with some of the existential stuff obvious in the title.

DL: Yeah, it's also like, very good for October, right? The Eternal Shriek.

Krispin: Oh yeah.

DL: Creepy, right? It was quite the title for an episode. Yeah,

Krispin: I know in our family we've been making this shift from, you know, being a little more into Halloween. I’d be curious to hear from folks, like, if other people have made this shift, from, like, growing up, you

Krispin: You know, It's funny, for my family, we sort of celebrated Halloween. I feel like it was more, like, My parents stopped doing it because they didn't want to buy costumes for four kids.

DL: I understand that element of it. Yes, but as two kids raised in white evangelicalism, my mom was really anti Halloween and Sometimes would just let us pick a bag of candy out at the [00:01:00]grocery store, which felt exciting because we didn't get candy very much

But she really traumatized me because she gave me all these tracks jack chick tracks about how like witches put and candy and then sacrifice kids on Halloween and that's why you shouldn't go trick or treating.

Krispin: Wow.

DL: it was pretty scary. And my mom's like, this is true. This happens. And I was like, okay. So here's my, I do have some memories of going trick or treating. Uh, cause we stopped when I was in second grade.

Krispin: Um, and, I remember we would like go to, occasionally come across a house that would like, that would have like a poster on their door that said like, I don't celebrate Halloween because I believe in Jesus.

DL: Oh my gosh, that's so Christian of them.

Krispin: right. One of them was like our next door neighbor. And I remember the like, the psychological turmoil of like, Wait a minute, we're Christians. We're the conservative ones.

DL: This is exactly how Chidi would respond to that situation.

Krispin: Right? It was so confusing.

DL: Wow.

Krispin: and shame. Like, as I read it, my parents just didn't even realize. They were just like. Oh, well let's just move on to the next house. And, you and I have to help our oldest make their costume and it's really frustrating. So, anywho, that's my current thoughts on it.

Yeah, like, from my view, it's like, let's just buy a bag of candy and watch a Pixar movie.

That's what we did growing up. Yeah, when your kids really want a professionally done costume that isn't sold in stores, it's like, oh my gosh. Pressure. That's my eternal shriek today. It's my personal hell.

DL: it’s like the opposite -- That is my eternal [00:03:00] shriek of it.

DL: Okay, so it is called The Eternal Shriek. Yes, we're coming to you from hell, and we will be talking to you, not really about hell.

Krispin: Yeah,

DL: Yeah, you know, there's parallels,

Krispin: as y'all know, we use Mark Evan Jackson's, uh, synopsis on these from the NBC Good Place podcast.

Just always wanna make sure that we're sourcing that, that we're [00:04:00] clear that oh my gosh, stealing it. We are not Steelers, right? We are sourcers, we are ethical people.

DL: and we love Mark Evan Jackson's voice. So, yes, exactly.

Krispin: And so, So let's start with that. We might fill in gaps in

Marc Evan Jackson: I'm Mark Evan Jackson. I play Sean. we're talking about episode 107, The Eternal Shriek. In the aftermath of Michael deciding he is the problem with the neighborhood, and therefore needs to be retired. Chidi and Elanor explore the option to keep him in the neighborhood by killing Janet. Chidi ends up accidentally resetting Janet. She confesses at the end that she is the problem with the neighborhood.

Krispin: So succinct. So there’s a twist at the end of this episode. I know. We'll get to that in a minute, but it felt like cliffhanger to me today the same way that it felt when I first watched it. Oh, really? Yeah, but [00:05:00] we'll get there in a minute.

Krispin: What is important is basically Michael says,

Krispin: Hey,

hi, I'm the problem, it's me.

DL: Oh, wow. I know what that's from. Thanks, TikTok. TikTok has forced me to listen to Taylor Swift in a way that you've never been able to do even though you blast it constantly. I just tune it out here at home, but then TikTok does that. Anywho. Basically Michael's like, I'm going to retire because I'm the problem.

Krispin: that I'm going to be in eternal conscious torment forever. okay.

DL: I mean, he doesn't use those words, but yes,

Krispin: The description of that is being a pinata hung out by your genitals, and beaten with a diamond rod

DL: Titanium. Okay. Um, and so, basically, then they're [00:06:00] like, okay, well, Eleanor, if Eleanor's not going to confess, then Michael has to take the fall.

Krispin: But then they also figure out that if they kill Janet, Janet can't take Michael to retirement, so basically it's a sort of question of like who's gonna suffer here. Is it Eleanor?

Krispin: Is

DL: it Michael? Is it Janet? They decide on Janet because she's a robot. And poor Chidi just has to suffer no matter what.

Krispin: Right?

DL: You know what I mean?

Krispin: Yeah, at one point he says, I've never been stressed out, this stressed out in my in my whole life.

DL: And then, what does Jason say?

Krispin: He says, that he's gonna get him some weed.

DL: Right, he's gonna use Janet. I know what you need. Janet, get some weed. Yeah, and he's like, ‘oh yeah, I forgot, you killed Janet.’

Krispin: It is really great.

DL: Um, and then, but there's also this flashback. Through the episode that Michael, that, uh, Mark Evan Jackson did not mention that is important, I think. Okay, with Chidi and the red boots? Right, yeah.

Krispin: So [00:07:00] Chidi has a, a professor friend who buys these really gaudy, big red cowboy boots. Um, asks Chidi what he thinks, and Chidi thinks, said, lies, and says he loves them. And sort of this whole storyline ensues where he then buys Chidi the boots and then Chidi... You know, is reminded again of how he lied, um, and is just eaten up inside because he told this white lie. Yeah. Which really, um, is not, is not a surprising story, knowing Chidi.

DL: but it just illuminates how much he, um, how scrupulous he was as a person on Earth and continues to be. Yes. And how it really causes a lot of anxiety and suffering for him.

Krispin: So. yeah, thinking about the Watch Rewatch,

DL: watching this first in fall of 2016, um, now it's seven years later. I think for [00:08:00] me, it's like, I remember kind of getting caught up in this conundrum because actually the more that Chidi lied, the worse it got. It wasn't just a white lie in the flashback. Uh huh. And also here, it's like, the, the idea is like, yes, moral philosophers take this too seriously.

Chidi takes it too seriously. And also, at the same time, the reality is, is that when he does lie, things do get worse.

Krispin: So there's there's a truth to it.

DL: So, anguishes him, you know. Right, yeah. Like, Chidi's brain is the eternal shriek, right? Yes. Isn't that true?

Krispin: he’s gonna wake up in the middle of the night, you know, worried about something. Um, I think when I first watched this episode

DL: the twist at the end with Eleanor confessing I did not see that coming like I saw that coming down the road, right? But to have her suddenly be like, okay, like “it was me.” That was really intriguing I the first watch you know, I was also just like [00:09:00] D’Arcy Carden, who plays Janet.

I was like, this is just such a good actress. So she's like an improv actor and you could just tell And she's, I was gonna say that. So good.

Krispin: I was gonna say like, you can tell that she just must have had so much fun this episode. Yeah, I mean, like one of my favorite, there's so many great parts, but one of my favorites is when she's like, I can't cry.

Uhhuh , and here's my impression of, of a human crying. And it was so . She goes, yeah.

Krispin: Baaaaaah!

Anyway.

DL: You try to do the physicality of it, but people won't hear it. They'll just hear you saying bye. Right. Um, and I mean, and then also, like, she gets killed.

Krispin: She gets reset. Uh huh. And just watching her, like, drop on the beach face first. I know. Right? Just stuff like that. Yeah. And then, she was having a lot of fun.

DL: I notice how Jason loves, um, Janet who has no consciousness. You know what I mean?

Krispin: [00:10:00] Yes.

DL: So that was funny. I know. It was just that this wasn't the spark of first love. 'cause I think it was No, 'cause earlier in the season

Krispin: I remember “he says like, what's up with Janet? Is she married to Michael?”

Krispin: but here's another point of this budding romance.

DL: Okay. Exactly. I also think on the rewatch, I was noticing, you know, this is the first time Michael is really…Sort of mean. Like he's mean to Tani. Just straight up mean. You know? And I was listening to like, the Good Place podcast and they were talking about like, Michael's fear of retirement, of the Eternal Shriek is real.

Like, they talk about that in later seasons, right? That's actually something that happens to the demons if they don't do a good job, or something like that. And so, I was sort of watching it with that in mind, but mostly I'm like, oh, he's just enjoying being like just really sense that he was truly worried [00:11:00] about

DL: Yeah, no, I agree. Because I, my thought was that he was he wasn't going to actually retire. even though that's what demon retirement is, the sense that this is all a ruse to bring pain and suffering onto Eleanor and Cheese, but that eventually becomes a real thing for Michael.

That's true. So anyways, foreshadowing. Um, but in this episode I was like, oh, he is just enjoying getting to drop the nice guy facade a little bit Uhhuh, and he himself brings up. Multiple times that he kicked a dog into the sun, you know, again, I was like, oh,: they're just putting it out there for us Right, and at one point, uh, Tahani says,

Krispin: like, Tahani says “don't blame yourself, and he's like, I'm not, I'm blaming you Exactly.”

DL: it’s demony Yeah, um, for rewatch. I was, like, why did I not ask the question, why are, uh, angel architects punished forever?

[00:12:00] Well, like I didn't even Exactly. I mean, you don't even question the system. I mean, you do, but you're like, there's not enough time in the show to question it. You know, Uhhuh, which is such an interesting framing of this, it's like, well, it brings up so many things that nobody in the show brings up. Mm-hmm. , like, who's in charge if it's not Michael? And why is that? you know? Like, the so true. Right?

Krispin: Like,

DL: What kind of deity would do that? They'd be a monster, right?

DL: I thought you were gonna say forcing the conversation in a direction.

Krispin: you have so much baggage, you're just like...

DL: I know, I'm like not qualified to talk about the good place because I've had some in like toxic, you know, religion. So therefore I'm like not qualified to talk about, um, the afterlife. Right, Krispin? Exactly. Right. [00:13:00] I don't even know how we got here.

Krispin: We’re being sarcastic. Uh, because there's so much ragging on ethics and philosophy professors. Yeah. And it's just like, perfect. Uh huh. Like, one of them, so he has his friend who's also a professor. And whenever they greet each other, they give each other compliments.

Like, he says, “Read your paper on ethical positivism. It was soooooooooooooo dramatic.” And like, Chidi takes that as a compliment. And then later, Chidi is coming up to his friend after class and he says, I loved your lecture today. It was so bleak, . He was like, thank you, . Yeah. Uh, I mean, I don't know if this is a good time to put it in here, but like I paused and tried to read everything on the blackboard Okay.

Of the bleak class. Okay. What was on there? It was all about eschatology, literally. Wow. [00:14:00]Eschatology Crispin, now you know what that word means and I know what that word means. Okay, Eschatology Crispin, for people who did not go to Bible college, what is eschatology?

Krispin: The study of the end times. The theology of the end times.

DL: and the afterlife.

Krispin: Mmm.

DL: I think of it mostly as end times because we are, we're raised evangelical Christian, but it can just be the afterlife, heaven or hell, you know, what happens after. I mean, according to all these other books, which there was a lot of books referenced. Should I get into it right now on the blackboard?

Krispin: And then we'll come to ragging on moral philosophy professors.

DL: Yeah. Okay. So Alan Siegel wrote a book called Life After Death

Krispin: Then on the black board is Moltman, Jorgen Moltmann,

DL: The Coming of God on Christian Eschatology, Brian E. Daly, The Hope of the Early Church, he was a Catholic priest who wrote about the patristic views of eschatology,

Krispin: the

DL: Jeffrey Burton Russell, Paradise Misled, which he's an [00:15:00] American historian who writes about heaven.

Moltman we heard about, but we didn't read.

Krispin: this is just such an interesting peek into, like, our education, our religious education. Because eschatology was huge.

DL: It was like such a defining and bleak part of my childhood because my mom was obsessed with the end times, but at Bible College, like, basically we just read the book of Revelation, right, and certain others. They had lots of Wayne Grudem And Wayne Grudem's thoughts on who wrote a book called systematic theology. Just to give you some context, he's a huge Trump supporter.

Krispin: So imagine reading theology

DL: about the end times by someone who would eventually

Yeah. I mean, he's a patriarch list, basically. Right? And so all sorts of toxic stuff comes out of that. And yeah, I was just trying to Google [00:16:00] like Wayne Gruden, who was like basically the guy, we had to read all his books in our Bible college, from Dallas Theological Seminary and

Krispin: Right,

DL: But still, like, I'm trying to look up their books on eschatology. I'm like, I haven't heard of any of these.

Krispin: But I think eschatology, from our background, just comes from pastors. Just, like,

DL: that and the late great planet Earth by Hal Lindsey, right? Which came out in the late 60s and sort of left behind and all that came out of that. So that's a rapture theology. And that is also about how the earth, you know, is doomed and very, and it's going to happen soon, right? And God will only save a select few faithful remnant, right?

Krispin: And everyone else. Whenever I hear that title, the Late [00:17:00] Great Planet Earth, for some reason in my mind, it is combined with the reasonablest from Parks and Rec, which Mike Schur also worked on, right, who are known as the Zorpies that believe that the, you know, giant lizard is going to come down from the sky, because it's actually not that different.

DL: it's actually not that different. The world is burning. Like thank you so much. Conservative Christian men who did everything you could to not help climate change and to just exploit this planet and try and regain power, you know?

Krispin: Yeah, and what you should have been doing. Yeah. A lot of evangelicals that are focused on the entire are using the climate change events as confirmation that the end of the world was covered.

Yes. As confirmation that we misused the earth and exploited it.

DL: And even though we don't want to talk about it, there's like things in the news happening right now that evangelical Christians are taking as proof, right, that we are in the last [00:18:00] days, the end is nigh.

DL: And this is like a bleak and devastating and violent theology. Some genocidal shit, you know what I'm saying? Like, to, to only save a few. And condemn the rest for eternal suffering for their finite sins. Of what? To save a certain group based on their religion. then to destroy everyone else. Oh, uh, yeah. Those, those were not my favorite parts of the episode, but it was in intriguing to me.[00:19:00]

Krispin: Yeah. I can you to cheer you up, . I will let you talk about Che's Middle of the night conversation with his girlfriend.

DL: Why? Because I do this all the time?

Krispin: No, because there were two lines in there that I thought were perfect. No, you say them then! Uh, so, Chidi's talking about... Uh, Kant and how Kant thinks that, like all lies are bad.

Yes. Mm-hmm. and his girlfriend responds. Kant was a lonely, obsessive hermit with no friends. I know. And so I was like very like, wow. They just said it, Uhhuh. But then also, like she wrote her entire thesis on him. Why would you write your entire thesis on somebody if you were like, they were actually a lonely, obsessive hermit.

Krispin: Could you write a whole book on someone and then, in retrospect, look back on them and be like, Oh, actually, I see, sort of.[00:20:00]

DL: Could you write a whole book on them And it's clear that Chidi is even pushing away his girlfriend.

Krispin: Right.

DL: his ethical dilemmas. Yeah, and then she says, “This is why everyone hates moral philosophy professors,” which is interesting because what does Eleanor say to Chidi right before? She actually confesses?

Krispin: She says, I love you.

DL: She says, I love you, man. I think that's a really interesting and beautiful and poignant sort of piece of this. It's like, yeah, Chidi and his ethical dilemmas, like, push people away. Kant pushed people away. People who are, like, obsessed with ethics and morality, like, are not very pleasant people inside their own heads and to be around.

And yet, like, someone like Eleanor was able to be like, I love you and you don't deserve to suffer, and if I can help you be less anguished,

Here's the deal, if you know people in your life who are anguished by ethics and morals and how humans treat each other, you know what the best thing you can do to help them feel better?

Krispin: rub their back and watch Great British Bake Off?

DL: That's one way!

DL: Be a good person! Like, when you can be good to each other, that helps us sad folks. You know what I mean? That helps us stressy, depressive folks. When we see humans surprise us with their capacity to be kind and loving and empathetic, like, that's really helpful. So, I think that's, you know, on the, on the blackboard of the eschatology class.

It, it says like optimism versus pessimism, right? Heaven versus hell. And I think Mike Schur is ultimately a very optimistic, Who finds the capacity for humans to change, to be like the thing worth basing a whole show on.[00:22:00]

DL: Sorry, I know you wanted to make fun of me for my Great British Bake Off needs...

Krispin: No, I just care about you a lot.

DL: Now that Matt Lucas is gone, I couldn't watch it with him. I mean, it just wasn't the same. Noel and Matt sort of egged each other on

Krispin: I wasn't making fun of you.

I care about you a lot. Which is why I love watching Great British Bake off with you.

DL: Now that Matt Lucas is gone, I couldn't watch it with him, really. I mean, it wasn't, it just wasn't the same.

Krispin: Mm hmm. The him, the energy between him and Noel was not... It's horrible. They sort of egged each other on in a not great way.

Anyways. Okay. You're getting all serious. I want to talk about some other favorite pieces, which one of them is just Eleanor is, you know, trying to justify the whole time why it's okay to send Michael to retirement or to kill Janet. One of my favorite parts is, uh, when they're trying to decide whether or not to kill Janet, uh, she says, I'm dead, you're dead, and now we're killing her.

We're just paying it forward. And Judy's like, that's not what that phrase means. So just that whole

DL: like It makes sense to me. [00:23:00] Yeah. Also, can I just say, Eleanor is so smart because she's like, this actually is Michael's fault, right? Because he mistakenly let me into the good place, which is so true! The problem is not Eleanor.

The problem is Michael, you know? And so I'm like, she's right.

Krispin: There's something there about, uh, Confronting God. Yeah. Right? Of like

DL: Confronting God and being like, this is your issue. You made all this.

Krispin: You set up the system this way.

DL: Yes, we talk about this. I'm like, I'm into my Eleanor phase. My Eleanor moon, you know what I mean?

Like Chidi is going away now. Eleanor is rising. I'm just like wait a second it is not my job to fix this entire mess by beating myself up like The people in charge. This is their shit and they need to fix it So yeah, that's how I feel. I feel about [00:24:00] God and CEOs and presidents. That's how I feel I mean?

Yeah

Krispin: So we've been talking a bit about this. I have my idea of kind of what the ethical dilemma is here. Okay. Which is, you know, about do the ends justify the means? Can you Cause even an innocent person to suffer for the sake of other people's well being. I know

DL: this is what you always come back to. This is the one that always comes to your mind.

Yeah, I think that's obviously the big picture one, but I think the small picture one for this is lying. Right? Obviously, lying to keep people happy, um, telling the truth to help ease suffering, all that stuff.

Krispin: Thinking about the flashback, what did you think about that? Because you've said in past episodes that, you know, it's just better to lay the truth [00:25:00] out there.

DL: Yeah. I mean, I think the, I think the boots are just a metaphor for, uh, Like, do you keep silent or do you lie to protect someone else's feelings, right? And what ends up happening when you do that? Well, eventually it comes out, right? And the thing you were avoiding happens, which is you hurt someone. So I thought, for the purposes of this podcast, like, let's, let's take out the red cowboy boots, right?

And replace it with... Like a belief that has toxic ramifications, right? It's not like the Red Boots are toxic, but... Whatever. Um. They're toxic to the eyes.. So I just thought, there's a lot of people, like, in our Facebook community, in our Patreon community who have evangelical parents or family members or friends and they just feel like they can't be honest with how, [00:26:00] like, I don't actually believe in hell for the vast majority of people anymore. Like, this is one I mean, we just did a whole Patron Only episode about this, right? Uh huh, yeah. And so I'm just like And they can't They feel like they cannot say that to their family members, right? I believe this That's a really harmful ideology. I think your eschatology, right, has actual ramifications on the real world.

But people don't want to tell their parents or other people that because it anguishes their parents. If you don't believe in hell, then you're definitely not a Christian. So then you are going to hell, right? And so we protect people in our life from their own toxic beliefs. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I'm just like, no, no!

Krispin: The red boots are  hell theology.

DL: Well they're red! Uh huh. I'm just like, maybe that's about how... And even like when he's on his supposed deathbed, right? It's like, yes, of course you're not gonna say it then. Like, you just got... And then the second he's not actually dying is when she's just like, Okay, I hate them.

And then [00:27:00] he felt better. So I just thought it would be good to just, you know, put this with a real world example. And there's so many other things, right? Like, because there's just so many, like, conservative talking points right now. If somebody says something about... Kids at public school want to identify as a cat, you know, are you keeping silent to Protect them?

Or like what's going on? Like, I just think it's so much better to be honest. Now I say this as somebody who has a really fraught relationship with my parents and it is really hard to confront in the moment and so we, we, I think everybody can find their own ways to be authentic and to be honest because keeping that inside to protect other people, like, it hurts us.

And it hurts society, I think, by, I, I don't know. So like, Chidi's saying, I hate your red boots. Like, yeah, his friend's going to be like, Oh, that sucks. But like, [00:28:00] if you wear weird shit, you have to be okay with people not liking that. And I feel the same way about people with toxic theology. They're going to feel so bu tthurt and so whatever.

And I'm like, yeah, you believe stupid shit. Like you're going to get called out. This is how high control religions work, right? First of all, they always use Eschatology. Like, to get people in the fold, to keep them panicked, to keep them striving really hard. Secondly, right, they, they create this situation where people are not honest and cannot confront the people in their lives.

Like, that's actually a really troubling belief you have that actually points to a God who's very vengeful and who only wants to privilege a few, like that's actually a genocidal deity, right? Oh my God. Evangelical Christians cannot handle this fact because they've created all these ways to say, “no, we're the best. We're good. This is good news.” And so for us to be like, this isn't actually good news is like an attack on their entire person [00:29:00] because they have willingly. aligned their entire person with this belief. Does that make sense? And so us just being like, that's not good news. Like we should just be saying that a million times a day to evangelical Christians, right?

That's what I've been doing. And, um, it makes people really upset, but they deserve to be upset because their beliefs are upsetting and they need to deal with those feelings on their own. And I don't need to help them through that. I think that's the other part. And I know this is not how everyone is, but I just think.

I'm just so tired of the pressures we have. to do the emotional labor for people who have really violent and really toxic beliefs.

Krispin: Yeah, that's what I was going to say is that that was actually one of the main, a big motivator for me to leave Christianity was even, I was noticing even in progressive spaces, there was this element of [00:30:00] like, Accommodating really toxic theology under this guise of like, well, this person is following the Bible according to their conscience.

And like, you can do that, but like you said, we also need to name it as toxic or genocidal or, you know, homophobic, like.

DL: They want to believe that them, quote unquote, not believing in gay marriage is not discriminatory, right? Right, uh huh. And I think. We've all just gotten past the point of, I, those people can live in their delusions.

They are discriminatory people with a genocidal religious eschatology, right, that has real world impact.

Krispin: So what you're saying is that there's something about polite society where we tell white lies that actually upholds dominance of power. Uh huh. Yeah, I think that is really important. And I think that like, especially like, I remember being at a more conservative church and [00:31:00] that being such a common thing where like, if you talk to people one on one, they're like, Oh yeah, here's what I believe or don't believe.

But nobody else would know that, right? It's just this like, the overarching dominant theology wins out. Like, I remember we were Uh, we were in conflict about affirming gay marriage and I was like, if we just took a vote of all the people volunteering here on a Sunday morning, like setting up church, we all want to affirm gay marriage.

Right. And yeah, the elders don't. Yeah, the elders don't. Right. And so it's like

DL: male elders.

Krispin: And so, yeah, just like the, that idea of like, you have to keep the peace by not being fully honest. Right. It just maintains these systems. Yeah.

DL: Who does that benefit?

Krispin: male elders the white

DL:. Who does telling white lies benefit?

Right. It's like, that's where I'm just like, no, no, no, no, no, no. [00:32:00] This episode is not actually about red boots. Yeah, but those kind of silly lies, you know what I mean? Like, it's about the other thing because it is anguishing. Like, it was really hard for me to be, to try and maintain a close relationship with my parents.

And just thinking about the COVID years in particular, right? They said so much blatantly wrong shit that also revealed They don't really have a capacity to care about the human race, right? And so, trying to argue and trying to like, placate them and all It's just so much easier to be like, Okay. I know you don't care about other people.

Great. You know, just kind of move on because that's not going to change, but I'm also not going to protect them and make them feel like amazing people, you know? Right.

Krispin: Yeah. Yeah. I think it is really hard. And like you said, you are autistic and have your approach. I think [00:33:00] there are different approaches to this, but recognizing like, yeah, there's immense pressure to just pretend like things are fine.

And for one, it is marginalized people that suffer. For two, it is you that suffers in this sense, in Chidi did, right? There's actually, I think something really true about that, that in this system where we have to pretend things are okay and nice, like. When those people in your life, they feel fine. You walk away feeling like I compromised my perspective or personhood

DL: And I think Chidi eventually telling his friend, “I hate your boots.” Right? Like, well, it's interesting because in the good place, he's eventually able to tell Eleanor, like, “I'm never going to move on from killing Janet. Like that was really traumatic for me.” And like, “you can just move on. I get that, but I can't, I will carry this with me forever.” He was [00:34:00] honest, right? Like, and I think being honest in one way helps you be honest in others and his honesty is what. Got through to Eleanor to be like, Oh my God, like, you're right. I'm not experiencing this the same level you are, but you sharing that has now made me consider like, huh?

So I'm like, the telling the truth, I think has such powerful implications, right? And in these, these ways that can allow other people to actually understand, like, wow, this is so important to you. This is anguishing to you. Now, now I feel like my skin is in the game, right? Because. I care about you. So I think that's, I don't know, an important thing to consider.

Yeah,

Krispin: that is really insightful. I feel like I did not come into this conversation with any of these thoughts. And just as we're talking, I'm like, yeah, makes sense. I love it.

DL: Did Chidi do it the right way? I'm not sure about the red boot reveal. You know what I mean? But I was saying, it allows [00:35:00] him to say that to Eleanor later.

Krispin:

So, you might have religious trauma if …. For me it was, uh, I mean it was very potent in this episode. Um, I worried that unconfessed lies meant that I would go to hell forever. Because I had this thought of like, I have to confess to that person because they are the only person that can forgive me and God can't forgive me unless that person forgives me.

Okay. Okay. So. Okay. They don't look into some like religious scrupulosity in Krispin's brain. Yeah.

DL: Okay. I think mine is more like, and this is in part due to some of the voicemails we got and we talked about in our patron only episode about help, but people basically being like, Like Michael's depiction of the eternal shriek is like.

Nothing compared to what we were taught hell is, right? [00:36:00] And, like, these hell houses and scare houses and these, like, plays about what hell is like for a human, right? This is, like, so funny, right? It's like his molecules are put on different suns and his thing. Well, if you were raised evangelical, like, the depictions of hell were much more concrete to, like, human suffering, right?

And as kids, you just have to think about like, wow, that's horrible. And so I'm like, you might have religious trauma if you're like, oh, the eternal shrink doesn't sound that bad, which is how I felt, you know, compared to what we were told hell is like to scare us into signing up that resonates.

Krispin: definitely head over and check out our Patreon because we talked a lot about hell. Mm hmm. Um, lots of fun. You know? Just lots of fun talking about hell.

DL: Hashtag Occupy Hell. I'm trying to, you know, a few years ago. Get it going again. Yeah! Should we revive it? Yeah! Uh huh.

Krispin: Yeah, I mean, uh, you [00:37:00] know, you start questioning hell and people think you're not a Christian and they don't trust you.

Um, so right. So, right, so what's gonna be different now? Um, you got any fun facts?

DL: Fun facts! Well, they're not that fun, you know, I just told you about all these people who wrote books on eschatology.

Um, I was going to look up Machiavelli, right? But I did not do that. Yeah,

Krispin: we've spent a lot, enough time researching terrible men lately.

DL: I'm sorry, Krispin. I mean, the fun facts, okay, one fun fact is that We're so bad. We cannot remember the name of the friend with the red boots, but he has an Australian accent, but Chidi doesn't have an accent.

And so there's this whole thing about like, what's going on in the flashbacks? What's going on? What languages does Chidi actually speak? Um, I don't really [00:38:00] care about any of that. I'm more, I'm more like interested eschatology. And does that make you a moral philosopher? Another fun fact is the way people treat Chidi.

And it's how like, and there's that constant refrain of, you know, people, this is why people hate them. I'm like, am I a moral philosopher? Cause people hate me. What do you think, Crispin? Am I just like a lay person, moral philosopher?

Krispin: I think that there are, um, I think it's a, it's a mixture. So part of what you do I

DL: mean, I'm a lot like Kant, except I have a great partner and two great kids.

But besides that. I kind of fit the bill, you know what I'm

Krispin: saying? Well, here's the thing. You do poke at things that need to be poked at, right? Whereas Chidi

DL: That sounds sexual, but okay.

Krispin: For Chidi, it's so annoying because he's waking [00:39:00] his girlfriend up in the middle of the night to talk about whether or not he should have told his friends he doesn't like his red boots.

DL: Right. Which is not the same as like me waking you up saying we need to talk to people about hell being genocidal. Right, exactly. So I'm good and she's bad, right?

Krispin: Yes, and at the same time, there is something about being that person that is like thinking really hard about like, can I dump this cup of water down the drain or do I need to pour it on our lawn?

Yeah. In a way that is like, you know, feels in that vein of like you are, there's a lot more tension around this decision than there really needs to be. So I think it's just a mixture. Yeah,

DL: the eternal shriek is in my heart at all times. That's fine.

Krispin:. One of my, uh, fun facts, and I don't know if it's really a fun fact, but I did look up to see, uh, the proverb that Chidi says.

He says, lies are like tigers, they are bad.

DL: Right. And

Krispin: then... He was like, “it sounds more poetic in Mandarin.” [00:40:00] Uh, the internet is unsure if this is an actual proverb. Um, some people thought it might be this proverb that says, Rumors can be as fierce as tigers. Um, but other people are like, no, this is just made up.

Knowing the writers, they wouldn't just make something up.

DL: Right! Yeah, who knows? I didn't see anything about that.

Krispin: Again, not that fun, but... It was a funny part of the episode.

DL: Yeah, this was a great episode. The twist at the end, right? You just want to keep going. So, Eleanor shocks Michael. And shocks Chidi.

And this will be very fun to talk about next week. So this week is kind of a downer. Because I think the Eternal Shriek truly is about What do you believe about heaven and hell? Whatever. I think the next episode in particular is like People can change a small percentage. Maybe who knows some people can change.

And what does that mean for, you know, for the better. So I think that's something pleasant to think about for one.

Krispin: [00:41:00] Yeah. We don't have a listener question today because we used a lot of listener questions, um, in our patron only episode talking about health. So if that is your. If that's your vibe to talk about hell and coming out of evangelicalism, definitely head over there.

Um, but also we have some good voicemails that I just want to save for a little bit later talking about trauma attachment. So we really appreciate what y'all are sending in. Um, and just love hearing all the thoughts. Uh, we got a voicemail from someone who has watched the show eight times. Uh, so we're like, you know, if, if y'all have more insight into this, which I'm sure you do, please send us a voicemail.

Tell us

DL: your thoughts. Okay. Also this, this is my fun fact. This is the episode where Michael finally says it. You know what I'm talking about? I

Krispin: have an aura about this idea, but I can't consciously put my thumb on it.

DL: That's your response to my question? [00:42:00] Yes. Wow. No, it's take it sleazy. Yes.

Krispin: That was it. I was like, I remember, I can picture him sitting in the chair and saying something where I'm like, this is important.

And then it just went out of my head.

DL: Finally, finally, finally, we've got to the take it sleazy line, which I love so much. I it's, it's like Imagine Chidi saying, take it take it sleazy. That's me. It doesn't make any sense and I love it. I also thought his Michael's whole monologue on the things he wanted wants to do You know, in the human world was hilarious because they were all terrible things.

Get his hair wet, eat a saltine.

Krispin: So we got to finish up with, uh, this is the good place. Oh,

DL: I forgot about this.

Krispin: So what is giving you life right now? You have to go first. Okay. For me, it is listening to the Charlie Brown Christmas soundtrack on vinyl. I know. It is the beginning of October, but it [00:43:00]just helps me feel better.

DL: This is a tiny cry for help and I love it.

Krispin: I'm just being honest. It's just, sometimes you need a little jazz. Do you? You need a little holiday

DL: magic. I wish you guys could see his little jazz hands he's doing.

Krispin: Yeah, when you are in the middle of still working on a book about Dr. James Dobson, Focus on the Family, Terrible parenting.

You need a little Vince Giraldi.

DL: Yeah, we are not doing well, guys. Um.

Krispin: Every weekend, we're like, “This is the weekend. If we just put in a few more hours, we will finish it.” I'm sure all the creatives that are listening... know about that idea of like, yeah, this won't take that long. And then you're in the middle of it and you're like, this is taking forever.

It is not going the way that I anticipated. But I will say, uh, we've had a lot of you listening, um, and others that have, uh, helped us with this and shared your stories, shared your experiences. That has been so great. We've really appreciated that. Um, and it's been really [00:44:00] vital to this project to be centered on, uh, this project where we're trying to focus on the stories of people that grew up under Dobson parenting.

DL: Or like authoritarian parenting methods that come from a religious background. So if you're interested in that, you can follow us on Instagram. I'm on threads now and um, whatever. That's how you

Krispin: got on there. I know. It said, Instagram told me, DL Mefield is

DL: now on thread. That's not one of the good things in my life right now.

So I'm trying to think like, okay, what's good? What's good? I tried to go to an art museum to, um, cure my sense that humanity is doomed. Oh, I

Krispin: was like, you successfully went

DL:  I successfully went there. Um, but it didn't successfully cure. And I listened to Sufjan's new album and I just basically cried.

A lot, and then looked at art, and then it didn't, like, cure me, and then, um, what I, what did help Was a breakfast burrito. I had two breakfast burritos yesterday, one for breakfast and one for dinner. [00:45:00] And that's what's good is breakfast burritos.

Krispin: You what need to cure you? Some jazz. Jazz? Christmas jazz. I'm just kidding. I think you need the ocean.

DL: You made one of those breakfast burritos for me. So you, in a sense, are what's good, okay? But mostly you're cooking.

That's all I got today. Isn't that interesting?

Krispin: Yeah. Well, we'll wrap it up here. Thanks y'all for listening

DL: along. Go spend some time thinking about heaven and hell and eschatology and the eternal shriek. And if you want to be the kind of person who believes in genocide for all non believers. Yeah. Yeah. Go do that. Also,

Krispin: and if you want to send us voicemails, uh, that is in the show notes, we would love to hear your thoughts on any of this, uh, about heaven and hell, about white lies, about how you [00:46:00]navigate those conversations with family members that have terrible, toxic theology. We'd love to hear any and all of it.

DL: And about Eleanor changing. Mm. I just think that's really interesting,

Krispin: so. Yeah. Thanks again for listening and

DL: we'll be back soon. Take it sleazy.