Doomsday Crisis
Spoilers in the episode! DL and Krispin talk about S1 E5 titled “Category 55 Emergency Doomsday Crisis.” We talk about unjust systems that we call good, how groundbreaking Hamilton was when this episode aired, and more!
We use the audio from The Good Place Podcast.
Here’s the first episode of the series where we talk about the Adventures in Odyssey episodes that feature Marc Evan Jackson’s voice.
Wanna hear more about fascism? Check out DL’s substack.
Also, here’s a link to The Food Place.
Leave us a voicemail at (503) 912-4130 or send a voice memo to propheticimaginationstation@gmaill.com.
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You can follow The Bad Place Podcast on Twitter and Instagram. You can follow Krispin on Instagram here and Danielle on Instagram here.
TRANSCRIPT
Krispin: [00:00:00] Hello listeners, we wanted to just give you a heads up that there are spoilers in this episode from the end of season one of the Good Place TV show. So if you haven't seen it and you don't want it to be ruined, you won't want to listen to this episode yet. So we just wanted to give you a heads up before we go into the episode.
DL: Hello, everyone! Good
Krispin: Good morning! I mean, it's probably not morning when you're listening to this, although maybe it is. But we are back with another episode of This is the Bad Place. We're talking about episode 5 today.
DL: Yes, episode five, which is called Doomsday 55 Crisis Emergency Levels.
Krispin: Yes! Episode 5, which is called Doomsday 55 Crisis Emergency Levels 55. It is called 55 Emergency Doomsday Crisis.
DL: Okay. It is called Category 55, emergency Doomsday Crisis. not very delightful episode, is what I will say. [00:01:00] Yes.
Krispin: That stressful, like, Episode 4, I was like, I was starting to get those vibes, right? Just bad things are going to keep happening.
DL: The good place and our characters are going to have to figure stuff out. this is definitely it. Uh, however, you know, going back to some of the Lost allusions, like, Do you notice in these flashbacks they had the lost sound and the doomsday crisis? Like it makes me think of that little bunker.
Krispin: Lost doesn’t occupy my mind the same way it does yours.
DL: No, it occupies a space in Mike Shur's mind
Krispin: Okay, I'll give you that.
DL: Um,
Krispin: But yeah, I mean now that you say I'm like, oh, yeah, totally that totally fits. It's just so funny because this is a you know, like [00:02:00] a Gilmore Girls set and that is a Deserted island, which is the point. I understand that is the point so I can appreciate
DL: Very different, but very similar
Krispin: right. It just doesn't click in my mind in part because of the aesthetics I guess
DL: Instead of you and I recapping it, should we listen to Marc Evan Jackson recap it?
Krispin: Okay.
Marc Evan Jackson: Eleanor surprises herself with her first selfless action, but she finds Chidi is avoiding her. Tahani is upset to find out she has a low neighborhood ranking. Michael puts the neighborhood on lockdown due to the expanding sinkhole. Eleanor and Chidi are fighting when Michael asks them to take in another couple, Bart and Nina.
Tahani goes into brunch hosting overdrive to increase her ranking. Bart and Nina pry at Chidi and Eleanor's tension. Chidi divulges that he's upset because he never had a soulmate on Earth. Eleanor apologizes for the situation and gives Chidi a card he can use to get her to fork off whenever he feels overburdened.
Michael ends the lockdown due to the fixed sinkhole, but confides in [00:03:00] Eleanor that he has no idea what happened. and that they're going to further investigate. There's a flashback in which Tahani is repeatedly upstaged by her sister Camilla in their quests for their parents affection.
Krispin: Alright, so I always love hearing Marc Evan Jackson summarize it for us.
There's parts in there that I was like, oh yeah, I totally forgot that happened.
DL: so I say something really quick? Because people have messaged me on Instagram. They're like, did you know that Marc Evan Jackson actually was a voice actor in Adventures in Odyssey, Dr. Dobson's conservative right wing propaganda kid show? To that, I say. Yes! Okay, good. Yeah, me and Crispy did a whole episode on
Krispin: We did a whole series.
DL: season
Krispin: Yes.
DL: a whole series of Adventures in Odyssey episodes that was what, from 2014?
Krispin: Yes. Um, yeah, we did it in 2000. Yeah, it was like 2014 some somewhere in there. We did it in 2019 and it's a whole series about some Nazis taking over the small town America. [00:04:00] Yes. Um, and podcast and we definitely discuss the Marc Evan Jackson of it all. However we, so he's not, you know, working with them anymore, which is
DL: Brooklyn 99. I like that.
Krispin: We don't have time to get into all of it. He has a really high quality voice
DL: And we might get into it again, Since we're writing a book about Dr. Dobson.
Krispin: And, uh, yeah, I hope Marc Evan Jackson never leaves. Yeah, I mean, just little side note, someone uh, sent me a message on Instagram recently, [00:05:00] um, looking at the, the Claymation version of Frog and Toad from like the eighties. And the people that voiced them were the people that voiced Mr. Whitaker and Eugene, which are two of the main characters from Adventures and Odyssey.
DL: And didn't they voice, like, Winnie the Pooh and all that?
Krispin: Yes, totally.
DL: a prominent voice
Krispin: Like the the voice actor of Mr. Whitaker who this show revolves around was not a Christian.
DL: I mean, it's wild. It's wild.
Anywho! Uh, listen to Old Seasons of our podcast for that. Okay, so, watch, re watch. Do you remember watching this episode when it came out in the fall of 2016? I believe in the beginning of October 2016.
Krispin: I'll tell you what I was not thinking
DL: Okay, what?
Krispin: I was not thinking about lockdown and COVID. Like, it was just wild because, right, they, they, yes, there's, uh, this sinkhole is going on and basically, um, Michael says [00:06:00] everyone needs to stay in their homes for somewhere between, uh, an hour and 11 months.
Which, you know, it's wild to be like, oh, we've actually lived through that.
DL: That's how you feel now. What's the rewatch?
Krispin: I'm sorry. I answered in the negative of it
DL: just said that you just reversed it.
Krispin: Yes. Right. Um, you know, I think it was just that, that aspect of like, how is this going to resolve? How much can I engage with these people? They're so stressful.
Like, I don't, can't be too invested in their happiness because this is so stressful.
DL: Yeah, that's how you felt when you first watched it? Yes. How did you feel when one of the characters introduces a marriage therapist?
Krispin: Yes. Well, it's interesting 'cause that was long before I was a marriage therapist,
DL: Not long before.
Krispin: okay.
DL: you like heading towards
Krispin: that was okay.
That was like a year and a half before
DL: Because you'd been interested.
Krispin: Yes. Two years before. I do remember that feeling relating to that feeling of like, [00:07:00]oh, I mean, this is kind of sad and vulnerable, I guess, on my part of like, I remember being like, I wouldn't want to do couples therapy because it would just point out how, what a bad partner I am, how terrible I am.
DL: That's what you thought?
Krispin: Yes, uh huh.
DL: a good partner. You, and you always have been. Oh,
Krispin: Aw, that's really nice. So, I mean,
DL: I would've divorced your ass if you weren't, right?
Krispin: really,
DL: Yes. Don't you think that's true? That's true.
Krispin: true. Yeah, I mean, it really speaks to, like, how I viewed myself back then. Um, you know. And so, uh, so yeah. You know, I was kind of just reflecting on that. Of, like, I'm in a really different place now. Um. And I am a couple's therapist now, um, and I just, I mean, I do think that's the anxiety that comes up because the couple's therapist is like, just, you know, get in your relationship and poke and prod and see all the things that aren't working.
DL: That's not really what they do,
Krispin: No, it's not. But I think that's a big fear that people have. That's not what I do. I'm an Enneagram 9 [00:08:00] couple's therapist. So I'm like, let's, let me just meet you where you are.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Um, so those were the things that were on my mind. How about for you, when you first watched 5,
DL: Yeah, I think this is definitely, like, episode 5, right, it is pretty stressful. Just, bad things happening, bad things happening, bad things happening, bad things happening, and, um, the sinkhole being the obvious one. Originally, I do think the most compelling parts were, like, Tahani's flashbacks to when she was a kid.
And so... You know, this is the first time we actually see one of the main four characters, like, in relationship to their family, right? We've had flashbacks where Jason was with a friend, but this is the first time we see it with the family. And we see Tahani's messed up family. And sort of, it's starting to explain, like, why is she obsessed with being a good person and a people pleaser and fixing things and being seen as the hero.
So that was, that was fascinating. That did not feel [00:09:00] stressful, those parts of the episode.
Krispin: Right. Right? Yeah, totally. And Marc Evan Jackson talked about this, but she comes across the rankings. She is lowest in the rankings in The Good Place.
DL: Second to lowest, Glenn is number, is in the last place.
Krispin: right. I'm sorry. I even took a note of that. Glenn is below her. And, um, Glenn is someone that we see throughout the show. So we kind of have a point of reference for who he is. He's a nice guy, you know, but I guess he's last place. Really, these flashbacks show us why that's so important to Tahani and what drives her.
And I will say, I'll jump in with what I noticed this time, was that piece of like, I feel like when I first watched it, I wasn't as aware as I am now about how those early childhood experiences, family dynamics, really drive a lot of the decisions and motivations we have today.
DL: It's funny. I mean, that's so true. And it seems obvious to us now, but it, I don't think it was in 2016. And, and there's so many reasons, [00:10:00] right? Where you're like, no, no, no, no, no. Like my childhood was fine. I can barely remember it. I'm sure it didn't impact me negatively…in 2023, we're like, oh, shit, it, it impacts us so much. So I'm so excited as this show goes on it does a lot more of that and we eventually kind of see the family social dynamics for each character and it's just really illuminating. So I love that and I think on re watching it I had some really interesting experiences and revelations but I'm gonna wait to talk about that until we get, you know,
Krispin: to our what's the big overall Ethical question of the episode part, okay?
DL: So, what were some of your favorite things about this episode?
Krispin: Um, I, part of it is, you know, you just start to really enjoy and feel connected to these characters.
And so I love when, so they're in a lockdown, Eleanor is watching TV, uh, she's complaining about it. And she's like, I'd love to not watch TV, but you canceled [00:11:00] school. And then she's like, wait a minute, like, who am I? Like, I'm not the person that, you know, is happy or that wants to go to school and not watch TV.
DL: Yeah, Eleanor is not stressed out for much of this episode. She's feeling proud of herself. She's making progress. She's becoming a good person, right?
Because she let someone go ahead of her yogurt line, you know? So, I think that's funny.
Krispin: I also liked, um, when Michael is practicing Western Hemisphere small talk, right? So he said, one of the things he says is like, “Have you read that New Yorker article yet?”
I was going to say that was my favorite part. In part because it just takes us right back to
DL: 2016. That's like a time jump. You know what I mean? I was like yanked out of my body. Into like, Pardon me, are you Aaron Burr, sir?
Krispin: Pardon me, I'm Aaron Burr, sir.
DL: That's before really had [00:12:00] yet. Eliza! But we were all listening to the soundtrack. All three hours of it.
Over and over and over. I'm not ashamed to admit it. I did. Yeah, it really was just like, takes you back to that moment. I was also reading New Yorker articles, so. That's great. That's me.
Krispin: I mean, that's, there's so many times where I, Brooklyn Nine Nine stuff makes, like, where this show makes me think about Brooklyn Nine Nine, in part because of the connections, and there's like, totally, there's like Marc Evan Jackson's character where he's like, have you read this New Yorker article
DL: there's a whole episode about
Krispin: Uh huh, exactly, so it's fun to see those connections. I won't deep dive too much, but for those of you that know, just wanted to highlight that.
DL: Yeah, Krispin was a huge Brooklyn Nine Nine fan.
Krispin: DL had to dip
DL: It's okay!
Krispin: point. Around 2020. It's okay. We all know why. Right?
Krispin: is that, okay, so Chidi's
DL: And Mike Schur and them eventually dipped as well. So let's just put that out there. Um, [00:13:00] okay, one of my favorite things is that, okay, so Chidi's blackboard in the beginning, right, is all about utilitarianism, so that's like, What Chidi's teaching Elinor and Jason about, and then Jason sort of like comes up with this example, and it's just so unhinged, uh, and it just made me laugh a lot, but that was the only Jason we got, really.
So I appreciated every second of it, with the stolen boogie boards and all that stuff. It was the only Jason we got, really.
Krispin: just made me laugh, that was dance partners out of the dance group.
DL: isn't Donkey dog, his dad let we find out later. Am I spoiling that? Yes.
Krispin: So we're so we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to cut that part.
DL: That makes it so much better if you know that he sabotaged his dad's girlfriend.
Krispin: We will, we will definitely cover that in the spoiler sound. Okay. I think that is [00:14:00]such a good picture of utilitarianism and I think like in some sense, The writers are sort of like, we get to educate people about utilitarianism through this ridiculous character,
DL: and it's funny 'cause it's not really through Chidi, although it ostensibly is. Mm-hmm. It's more through Eleanor and Jason that we actually learn about some of these ethical frameworks and concepts.
Krispin: I mean, let me tell you, I listened to a podcast with Peter Singer yesterday, who's a utilitarian ethicist. Yeah.
DL: And who's, who's quite controversial, I think we should say. Yes. Peter Singer, not Pete Seger. I get them confused, but they are very different, right? Yes. Okay. Not Pete Seeger and the folk singer.
Krispin: no. Peter Singer. And uh, yeah, I tried to listen to it and it made no sense to me at all.
So I need people like Jason to explain it in dance group terms. Exactly.
DL: I was in, I got, I was in a Peter Singer phase.
Krispin: mm-hmm.
DL: I dunno when this was, I feel like it was a year or two before [00:15:00] The Good Place came out. 'cause I was really into this book called Strangers Drowning, which is about like, People who are altruistic to the point of like, making everyone around them miserable, A Doug Forcette. Oh, another spoiler. Nevermind! UGH! Okay, um, my resolve is cracking. So, yeah, I think it's just interesting to be like, the people that are writing this show are interested in things, you know, I've been interested for a long time. Yeah, I'm curious, if we go to this is the bad place segment, what do you think is the main ethical question or sort of the main topic being discussed in this episode? Sounds like utilitarianism because you were listening to podcasts with Peter Singer. Uh huh,
Krispin: Yes. But then I didn't understand utilitarianism, so I can't tell you whether this is a utilitarian argument or not. But I think the question is, is it ethically good or superior for cheaty to [00:16:00]suffer for Eleanor's wellbeing? Okay. Because that's what's happening. And Chidi says that he's like, This is supposed to be the good place.
I'm supposed to be on a pond in a boat reading French poetry and Sipping wine, right? Yeah Yes with a soulmate and instead I am trying to teach you ethics and doing the dishes for you So that you can maybe change and so I think that's like like the question that came up for me is like Is it good to suffer for others?
And like, but I think part of that question is like, who are you suffering for? Like, I think it's good to suffer for those, uh, towards equality, right? Those that are suffering more, like, to suffer with them or for them. But what we're talking about here in some sense is these are Eleanor's consequences and actions.
And Chidi is, like, showing up and, like, suffering [00:17:00] for her well being. So, I think that's a question that I have. What did you...
DL: Well, well, okay, so Krispin, I hate to do this to you. I hate to do this to you. I think the show wants us to focus on like, Chidi's blackboard and utilitarianism and Jeremy Bentham and What is util you know, and Chidi's a really good person and is trying really hard and he's suffering because he's helping Eleanor, but I kind of think this episode is a perfect encapsulation of being trapped in a bad system. Your wheels, spinning your wheels constantly to try and figure out how to be good in a bad system. I am ruining the entire premise of this podcast by saying we have to talk about the twist today because I think it is vital to this [00:18:00] episode. Yes! Okay. Okay? I'm sure everybody who's listening has already watched, so we all know this is the bad place.
And once you have that first and foremost in your mind, you will see that cheaty obsessing about how to be ethical is actually keeping him from understanding that this is the bad place. Okay, it's keeping him trapped in this perpetual cycle of trying to improve Eleanor, wondering if he's being ethical, you know, like, making a case for why he should suffer instead of being like, Wait!
Why am I suffering? Like, why is this so stressful? Why are these two people being placed in my home who are, like, designed to make me feel incredible bad? But him focusing on the ethics is keeping him from seeing It's the Bad Place. Does that make sense? So that's why I'm like, oh, we have to talk about it. [00:19:00] I'm so sorry to do this to you. But I'm like, we have to. This, to me, is the overarching theme of this first season. Is how, All of these things, including like our past and our trauma and how we decide to live in a world that inherently is super messed up and that says it's good but is actually bad for most people, while a few, you know, profit and have a good life and all the ways we kind of Get just sucked into these things that keep us distracted from actually saying no, this is the bad place This is not a good system.
This isn't good for anybody I'm really stressed out and I'm I want to take down the system, right? And so that's why I'm like we have to talk about today because all this other stuff is literally just like Mike Schur does care about Utilitarianism.
DL: [00:20:00] Mike Schur out there talking about utilitarianism all the time on social media.
No You know, he is trying to combat fascism! Like, he is trying to work against these systems that are oppressing people, and he does that in so many amazing and creative ways. Even Brooklyn Nine Nine was a very interesting way for him to do that, even through, like, the police. And so I'm like, Mike Schur is Jewish, Mike Schur has studied all these things, and I think he was really trying to say... Systems that hurt people. We have to focus our attention on them. But instead, here's all the ways that once, if you're born into this system that says it's good, that says this is how it works, how trapped you can get into trying to make that system good or trying to make it work, that you can't actually see that it's bad.
DL: So I think that's central premise, Yeah, I think so. Okay, can we just take a moment?
Krispin: Okay. So I think this [00:21:00] ties into, like, what I walked away with, which is, like, in this system, Chidi is tasked with making Eleanor good to make the system good. You know, I, I think, I, we both relate to Chidi in the sense of, like, we are trying to make the system work if we do enough emotional labor, if we suffer enough. As individuals, then we can right the wrongs in this larger system. Right? And I think with that, is, and I'll talk about this a little bit later in Religious Trauma, but this sense of like, if I am suffering, if I feel bad, then I am doing the right thing. Right? Even this comes up with Chidi, like, I'm sure in his mind, like, what's the right thing, to go read French poetry or to help this person.
Right? If I'm on the pond feeling good, that is the wrong thing to do. The right thing to do is to help Eleanor, even though it means I'm suffering. And I [00:22:00] think what that does, I'm thinking especially of women, I'm thinking especially of marginalized people, of this like, well, if you just try hard enough to help this person change, then this system will work. Then marriage will work. Then, you know, whatever…
DL: Yeah. Yeah. So you're, you're coming at it for more of like that personal like I should, I should embrace suffering you know, in order to help people which I think is really true and it's one of the impacts of this kind of system and thinking and and just trying to survive, right?
Trying to survive in a system that says it's good, but it's actually bad like that's messes with you, right? And I think all four of the characters are really interesting approaches to how to deal with That central conceit, right? Uh, America's supposed to be the good place. Um, in this one, you know, heaven, the afterlife is supposed to be the good place.
Krispin: Heaven is racist. But as Jason has already mentioned, Heaven is racist. [00:23:00] I just thought of that because there's a keychain right here next to me that says that. Um, so I think that we have to spoil it. We have to talk about this on the main feed because it is truly what this show is about and I think we are at a point in American history even what seven years from when this show originally aired where we are seeing nothing good comes from trying to fix a system that is fundamentally broken.
DL: we could just spin our wheels for seven more years and see if it's going to get better. Do you think it's going to get better? If we just keep trying to make our current government and, uh, Even, let's go to white evangelicalism, you know, which we both like. Let's go to white evangelicalism. Do you think...
If we worked really hard, Krispin, and wrote Cause my first book came out in 2016. So I've written three books for Christians.
Krispin: this yeah your book came out one month before this [00:24:00] aired
DL: Yep. So, I was, you know, doing my own business of seeing Some troubling things in my Christian community, and so I wrote a whole book about, uh, Basically, me trying to be a missionary and it going horrible, and me just becoming aware that my religion seemed to be only good news for people just like me, and the same thing for my country, right?
White, Christian, um, you know, straight, at that time I was cis, you know? Um, and, And then you have also written a book. And so we've definitely done the cheaty route, right? We're like, let's educate Christians on how far from the Marc they are when it comes to their ethics of loving their neighbors. That's literally how I thought of myself. And you are coming from a more therapeutic viewpoint if you want to talk a little bit about your book.
Krispin: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is just, the part of it is the, the theology of a God that, um, that [00:25:00] punishes you to make you better, that is disgusted with you, that thinks you don't deserve anything good, but I'm gonna be graceful and give you something good even though you don't deserve it. And I think that's what drives a lot of politics.
And I even mention that in my book a little bit. About things, um, like the way that this shows up in politics. If we have this view of a god that is, um, more devoted to order, um, and the status quo than the actual needs of people.
DL: yeah, so I, I think like. I, I don't know, like, I feel a little worried about this, but at the same time, like, it's totally past the time of worrying about this. And one thing I think with this episode, even the title, right, is, you know, Level 55 Doomsday Crisis and even this whole thing of like, Michael, now that we can talk about Michael being a demon, right, it's very important because he's running around trying to get people into a state of panic. Putting them into these situations that cause them anxiety, cause them internal anguish, cause them to fight with each [00:26:00] other, cause them never to be able to rest and feel and think enough to be like, wait a minute, this doesn't seem like the good place.
And so the perpetual crisis is such like a point of modern culture, but it's also a point of like authoritarianism. Any kind of authoritarianism, left wing or right wing, right, is a perpetual, like, warfare machine, right? There always is an enemy that has to be defeated to get your people into power, to get, you know, the masses motivated.
And so I was thinking about that a lot since I'm studying fascism a lot right now. Um, I was thinking about this perpetual crisis is such a component of fascist movements, if I'm being perfectly honest. If you keep people whipped up and anxious and unable to stop and think and feel, like, They don't resist.
They don't see what's really going on. And I think this episode is honestly a really interesting picture of
Krispin: And I think [00:27:00] this episode is honestly a really interesting picture of that. Has everyone stressed out and they can't stop and look at like, how is, how are my relationships?
Right. Like, why do I not feel connected to my soulmate? Because it's just in this frenzy of stress, which we've been talking about feeling as we watch, like, even for us, like, I'm noticing, like, what are, you know, it kind of more metaphorically, but where is the camera trying to make me look? Right? And even just thinking about this aspect of like us watching this and, um, the first time around and there being a marriage therapist and an identity theft, uh, professional, right?
And it's like, how did I not know that like this was intentional, right?
DL: the other thing. When re watching it, you're like, holy shit, this is so obvious and yet, like [00:28:00] I mentioned in our last spoiler, so it's like Nobody watching this season the first time around like there was no chatter online There's no chatter in the message boards that this was ever the bad place and that's because they had Kristen Bell and Ted Danson and Ted Danson saying this is the good place and smiling and looking dapper and Like, that's all we all needed to be like, sure, this is a stressful good place, but okay, it's the good place, you know?
And like, now that we know going back and rewatching it, I'm just like, it is kind of harrowing how much we will believe something is good if certain people tell us it's good. And that was my life growing up in white evangelicalism. Now I had it from so many different perspectives. My dad was a pastor, so of course he's telling me it's good news.
My mom homeschooled us, was obsessed with. Uh, religion. And it's funny, my mom was also obsessed with doomsday stuff. That's how, that's how they really got her into it is, um, she was totally convinced that the end times was happening all the time. And so I've seen how [00:29:00] doomsday stuff has kept my mom in particular, uh, kind of trapped in right wing politics for decades and it's only gotten worse.
Um, so, you know, this is like, personal to me, but I also think this is not just white evangelicalism, I think this is about America in general. And, you know, Mike Schur, like, I was loving it because he let loose on Twitter a few times. You know, after Donald Trump was elected and right after he was elected, he said, um, you know, America has always survived its many disastrous political decisions and this feels like the most disastrous.
Talking about Donald Trump being elected. He said, I believe we can survive it. The problem is this isn't just a political decision. It's a clarion call to forces of white nationalism, anti Semitism, and fascism. I thought the country had progressed enough to shut down a man whose campaign was fueled only by fear and hate, but it has not. So. [00:30:00] If Mike Schur is like, we basically elected the most outwardly fascist person in outwardly fascist person in American history. in 2016, like, I think we need to take that seriously. I know what I mean?
DL: and he had already written this entire first season. He'd already done all this, which I think is so fascinating. But we can still see, like, I, I hear the same thing with Americans being like, No, America is a democracy.
No, fascism could never happen here. This is a good place. This is a good place. This is a good place. And like, if you, and so I've been doing a lot of work just to regulate my nervous system. I am no longer in contact, constant contact with conservative Christians, because that's kind of like. I wasn't writing to conservative Christians, but evangelicals, even if they think they're progressive, they're just so trapped in trying to make something good that they've been told is good that they don't really have a lot of capacity for critique or listening to critique. Taking a step back from writing to Christians and taking a step back from trying to change the conservative You know, fascist leaning people in my own life after doing that for how many years and seeing no progress, I, and doing nervous system regulation work, I was finally able to be like, this is the bad place.
I've been trying to push that away for so long, but I think. All three of my books, and yours, kind of point to us being like, Something's wrong, but we're gonna work so, so, so, so, so hard to make it right. That's why you and I are a lot like, Chidi, right? Like, that is the most Chidi response to this. Um, and now that I've taken some time away, I can be like, No.
It's all a mess, is the bad place, and we can only by calling it that can we actually start to move forward. That's what I think. I think America is quickly moving towards fascism and has been for a very long time, and just because we call it a [00:32:00] democracy and just because we say it can never happen here, that doesn't make it true.
DL: Um, I, I don't know if you, uh, want me to get into the fascism
Krispin: into... Because there's two
DL: two levels of which to watch this show, and I think it's okay to talk about both of
Krispin: to talk about both of them.
Right? Okay, so...
DL: Okay. So. I know that I'm probably losing people when I'm talking about fascism, and you can interchange that with authoritarianism, you can interchange that with a system that calls itself good but actually is oppressing people and it only benefits a few, but let's just take a step back, think about the past few episodes we've already watched, right, and talking about Chidi, Tahani, like, they don't seem to spend a lot of time thinking about how only a tiny percentage of people get into the good place, right?
Krispin: right?
DL: And that is a direct result of them being like, I've bought into the system and I've worked extremely [00:33:00] hard, you know, to get to the top. And I think this is so important for those of us who are raised in religions that set up that kind of dichotomy. Does that make sense? Evangelicalism said like, all you have to do is believe in Jesus and you'll be saved.
Like anybody can do that. And if you're one of the few who's strong enough to do it.
Krispin: I really feel like this plays into the myth of meritocracy, right? So that's white evangelicalism, which I think explains a lot of why, if you have that theology, that it also plays into like people that make the right decisions. You know, don't experience poverty, or whatever it is, right? Like, if you are doing well, then it's because of choices you've made.
If you've, if you're not doing well, it's also because of choices you've made. So, I don't need to feel compassion or empathy towards you.
DL: So anyway, it's a good place to show about how to resist fascism, but we'll get into that as we keep
Krispin: Uh huh.
DL: with that word, I, you know, look up the definition of it, uh, look at history, and [00:37:00] I don't think, I mean, I know Mike Schur is aware of all these things. And for him to specifically call out fascism in 2016, I think is incredibly important.
And we're going to keep that in our minds as we keep talking about this show. I just love this. It is more important to me now than it was in 2016.
Krispin: Yeah. Right. I mean, it is, it, it is such a great show, even though it causes so much stress. So I'm wondering, like, how do we make sense of the suffering of individuals in this system? Right. The narrative is you are suffering for the good of others, right? And I think this ties into my. You know, I want to tie this into the religious trauma part, which is I grew up, you know, okay, I will use the phrase you might have religious trauma if right, you believe that if it was uncomfortable, or if it felt bad, it was the right thing to do.
And I'm, I'm [00:38:00] curious from this, like, understanding fascism. How does that help fascism?
DL: Yeah, because for us, you know, we were trained early on not to trust ourselves, right? So if you, if you were raised evangelical Christian, like from the 1970s on, Or even if you were Catholic or mainline and your parents utilized, like, evangelical parenting resources like Dr. Dobson. Uh, right, they, they were obsessed with this idea of original sin in children. So children are born inherently bad and must be disciplined to respect that. Godly authority. So this is just what all the parenting books said. They sold millions of copies. We were raised like that. So basically when I was six, right, my parents were like, you need to become a Christian to be saved so you can go to heaven and repent of all your sin, right?
You're very sinful, blah blah blah.
Krispin: blah, blah. So we,
DL: So we, so we grow up believing there's something inherently wrong with us. There's something bad about us. We cannot trust ourselves. We must always look to an outside authority to tell us if we're [00:39:00] good or not. Like, that's exactly what Mussolini was going for. He wanted fascism to align with religion, and it does, Krispin.
Every fascist regime, right, has been in Christian countries. Of course authoritarianism can happen anywhere. I'm talking specifically about fascism. That happens in countries where there is a highly dysregulated, emotionally volatile, lower middle class of white Christians.
Krispin: DL has been doing their homework.
DL: sound familiar to America?
Krispin: Uh huh.
DL: So I think Mostly, it's that piece of you can't know you're good unless this outside authority figure says you're good, right? And for Chidi, he's like, it's moral philosophers. And Eleanor's like, no! Nobody can tell me I'm good. In fact, gets really triggered when people in her actual life do.
But then, in the good place, she's like, okay, fine. I am here. The system's all encompassing. I will try to be good. Um, and we can see her getting [00:40:00] sucked into it a little bit. Of course, she resists. But she's like, Yay, I'm getting good. I'm gonna, I'm gonna finally get the, Get the rules right and fit into this system. You know? And she's so caught up in that, That she's not really spending a ton of time being like, This sucks. You know?
Krispin: Well, it's so interesting because Chidi is looking at the system and part of him, I mentioned this before, part of him knows it's wrong in the sense that he cares about Eleanor and does not want her to suffer. So on one level, he's like, yes, the system works. You know, you don't belong here.
On another level, he's like, from his actual, like, inner being is like, actually, I don't want you to suffer, and I am willing to suffer to do that. And I think about that piece is, I think this just resonates so much for me, I would guess it resonates for you, of being faced with the injustice and inequality in the world, seeing suffering, Chidi is seeing Eleanor suffering or potentially suffering [00:41:00] if she goes to hell, right?
And then it's like, so the right thing for me to do is to try to fix the system or stand in the gap or those sorts of things. It's sort of like an analogy would be huge companies that are polluting the planet and they then say, like, if you buy our green product, Right? Then you can fix it. And it's actually the shifting of responsibility.
DL: Exactly! Now you're tracking with me, Krispin. Now we're getting
Krispin: Uh huh.
DL: is, you can't fix these systems. Like,
Krispin: Well, you can't, you can't fix them with them. You can't, you know, you with that phrase, like, you know, you can't dismantle the palace with the master's tools.
DL: well, I need to finish my thought. You can't fix a system if you still think it's good. You have to call it bad. You have to say, This is the bad place, which is the huge twist at the end of this season, You have to call it bad. Welcome to Being Autistic, everyone. This is me. I can't handle it. We have to talk about it. And this is a much more interesting conversation. to be had, right? Otherwise, we're just pretending and we're like, Oh, what is utilitarianism? What does Jeremy Bentham have to say? I'm just like, No, Chidi is trapped looking at thinking that teaching ethics will make this bad system good when really he is stressed out of his mind.
And that's a lot of our dear sweet listeners
Krispin: of his mind.
DL: who has experienced that. I've experienced that. You've experienced that. And I'm, I'm ready to call things bad. I'm ready to call systems that oppress people bad. Gen Z is ready for that. Marginalized groups in America have been doing this workforce center race, like I'm ready to join them. Mm-hmm. . So there we go. Right. I'm ready to fight fascism because we have basically a year before the next presidential election, um,
Krispin: I was just imagining, like, James Baldwin in The Good Place. Like, what would he be like, you know? Like, just at a typewriter with a cigarette, like,
DL: That's my idea of The Good Place, you know what I'm saying? That is awesome. Um, okay, so you might have religious trauma if... you are freaking out right now while listening to me discuss these things. Um, that's all I have to say.
Krispin: Because there's such a deep drive to believe that it's good and it brings up anxiety?
DL: you want to think Ted Danson's wrong? Right. Do you want to think your parents have bought into fascist ideology? No. Nobody wants to believe this, okay? We do so much To try and be like, no, it's okay. It's fine.
I can fix it. I just need to work harder I need to be a better person. That's what I [00:44:00] did. I mean everybody can have their own You
Krispin: Well, yeah, and I think it is, it is about religious trauma. It's broader than that as well. I'm thinking of the book Trauma and Recovery by Judith Herman, right? Who talks about the same dynamic of whatever the system is, it has to be good and therefore the people that have suffered in that system either are disbelieved or they are also trying to suppress their own experience to make sense of it psychologically.
DL: absolutely. Okay. Woo. If you guys wanna hear more about me talking about fascism, I'm doing that a lot more on my sub stack, which is called healing is my Special Interest. And we do, and I am trying my best to be slightly trauma informed.
Krispin helps. So do, so. Do people like Judith Herman, right? And psychologists have been thinking about authoritarianism and these systems and how they impact people for a really long time. So I think it's, it's a, it's a good time to be thinking about these things. You can follow me over there. [00:45:00]Uh, do we want to go to fun facts?
Krispin: Are there any fun facts?
DL: Fun fact, America's careening towards fascism, but actual fun facts. There's this really great website, and it's called thefoodplace. cafe, and it's basically just a list of every food mentioned in The Good Place, and also the price corresponds to like the episode it's at.
But at the very end, if you scroll all the way down to this page, and we'll link it in our show notes, it has a list of the fro yo flavors. So remember the beginning of this episode, Eleanor's at the fro yo shop, and there's like so many flavors.
Krispin: are Empty Inbox.
DL: you a few of them?
Krispin: Baby
DL: Okay, some of the flavors are Empty Inbox, Baby Kittens, Unexpected Hotel Upgrade, Millennial Confidence, which, I don't think millennials have any more confidence anymore.
What do you think? Corner Brownie,
Krispin: think millennials
DL: [00:46:00] Crossword, Finding a Kidney Donor, which, we'll come back to that with, uh,
Krispin: a kidney donor, which,
DL: altruistic people.
Krispin: that with,
DL: Uh, the softness of a puppy's tiny ears, and the cool side of your pillow. I wonder, if you want to look at this, Krispin, if you would ever, if you would have, like, a favorite yogurt flavor. But one of my favorites is, caller doesn’t leave a voicemail.
DL: I know, who does? But one of a voicemail. Like doesn't leave a voicemail. I love that. I love that!
Krispin: like, two celebrities in this episode. There's one celebrity, and they're both Beyonce, Beyonce and the other one is... Now, my fun fact is There's only like two celebrities In this episode, it's actually one celebrity, and they're both Beyoncé, and they're [00:47:00] both flavors of fro yo.
DL: So those are two flavors of fro yo. That, that leaves our Beyoncé total at ….Total at three so far, right? cuz Michael talked about it in episode four and now we Uh huh. And so now we have two Beyonce flavors of fro yo. Today's not the day to make a connection between fro yo And authoritarianism, but we will get there in an episode coming up very soon. Everybody's excited.
And just things being off and not trusting your gut. The fro yo of it all. That's it. That's all I have for fun facts. I'm sure there's more. Uh, I guess another fun fact is, like, even the people who were directing these [00:48:00] episodes, the guest directors did not know about the twist.
DL: None of the actors, besides Kristen Bell and Ted Danson, know about the twist at this point.
Which is why they play their characters so convincingly. I mean, it is such a mind meld for me when I really step back and think about it. So, I
Krispin: I mean, I just wonder what would it be like to be Kristen Bell, uh, you know, opposite, um, Chidi.
DL: I know, and she told, she, you know, her husband is Dax Shepard, and he was like, watching the first season of the show with her, and he was like, this is so weird, like. Ted Danson's like, fine, but like, why is he so underused? Like, I just don't get it, and I don't really like it. And she had, because she didn't even tell her husband.
And so, as it was airing, right, she was like, Mm hmm. Uh
Krispin: Dax Shepard does seem like the sort of person that would accidentally mention it on his podcast.
DL: Kristen Bell [00:49:00] is right. In fact, the only person who blabbed about this was Ted Danson. He told a lot of people, um, which he shouldn't have,
Krispin: blabbed about this was Ted
DL: um, so I, again, I love all of that information. And if you, again, with the rewatch, Ted Danson is like never alone. You can never see him alone. He's always manufacturing the crisis and the response because When he's alone, he would just be in his demon form.
DL: No voicemails today, but that’s okay. Yeah. Keep them coming in.
Krispin: listener question today, and that's okay.
DL: we will. Okay. Krispin, what is something giving you hope in humanity these days?[00:50:00]
Krispin: Boundaries.
DL: Oh,
Krispin: Yeah. I'm just in a, in a phase of like setting boundaries in my life. And I think part of it is, um, you know, thinking about even this episode. Um. Where Chidi is facing this broken system and trying to make it work. And I think it's really important to recognize, like, what are the, what are the ways that you want to show up for other people?
But from a place of, um, groundedness. And not out of, like, I have to fix this. It's
DL: It's so true, and I think that's such a good point, because I'm not saying we shouldn't try and help alleviate suffering, and, and I think even like, Left Wing and myself, right, we can also get caught up in like, the fascists are running a perpetual warfare machine, like, we have to be constantly on our guard.
DL: you can fight fascism a little bit every day, and then you have to work on yourself, getting in touch with yourself, your needs, your emotions, your body, how you [00:51:00] can best use your actual self to resist and not do what somebody else says, but do it based off of you.
And there's so many protest movements that rely on this beautiful idea of individuality as a part of, like, mass collective. You don't have to be exactly like the other person who's resisting fascism. In fact, you can't. And to claim that is another kind of authoritarianism. So, like, we all have to know ourselves better.
Therefore, we can operate out of our, our boundaries. It's just, it's better work for everyone.
Krispin: Right. Exactly. Yeah. And I, I really like what you said, which is, yeah, we like, I, I know within myself, I am a person that cares and is going to do things to alleviate suffering. I'm just going to toot my own horn. Right. But like there, there's a difference between that and like frantically trying to respond to the, all the suffering I see in the world.
Right. Because
DL: Oh, who does that? Who's like that, Krispin?[00:52:00]
Krispin: I'm just talking about me here.
DL: to get better. I am.
Krispin: I mean, I think that like is, I was thinking about this aspect, right. Of like this evangelical. And then also like this evangelical sense of like, you have to save the world. Right. And it can also be easily transferred onto like, like, I talk about this with clients all the time that have nothing to do with religion of like.
I have to make these changes in my life to like save the environment or to alleviate this issue and like if you're doing that from a place of your passion, and that, I think that's great, but if it's from a place of like anxiety, um, the, the, and trying to ultimately alleviate it, recognizing like you're not going to be able to ultimately alleviate it yourself.
DL: Yeah, and climate change is such a good...
Like, example of that is so true, and I'm sure we'll be talking about that more. Um, Okay, what's good for me is, um, zines! [00:53:00] I'm getting into zines! Getting into that DIY aesthetic. I'm getting into that small batch printing. I got a typewriter off of Buy Nothing. I've been typing out some zines. Things that are embodied, you know, with my hands and being messy and it's fun. It's like a good thing for me. So zines, go to your local bookstores, go to the places you can get zines. Um, there's lots of radical thought happening and lots of creativity happening. Creativity is really important to me.
Krispin: Yeah. I think that's huge. And I think that even, that speaks back to the boundaries piece. If we are sort of like compulsively trying to fix the system, it doesn't give us the space to do things that might actually like have a really positive impact in the long term. Of creating art that is life giving and resists authoritarian governments. Exactly!
DL: [00:54:00] Krispin. I'm sorry. I I blew up the entire structure. If you were listening to this and you didn't know what The Good Place was about, I guess we should put a spoiler at the beginning of this episode. Forgive me, I am but a humble autistic person and fascism is my special interest. So if you want to learn about that, I'm a person you might want to listen to every once in a while as I process this. I'm not an expert, but it’s the culmination of so many threads of my life. Of trying to make white evangelicalism good. Because my parents... My, you know, education, my church, my everything told me it was and I don't think it is anymore. And I think it is absolutely, um, been one of the reasons why fascism has, has grown [00:55:00] in America.
So I'm going to resist it, but I'm going to be weird and creative and do it through watching the good place.
Krispin: Thanks again, y'all, for listening, and we, we are definitely going to come back with more listener questions in the future. Um, so please send those in.
DL: But now. You can do spoiler questions now! You can do all of them. Okay? Give us your thoughts. Give us your opinions. Um, we, we had somebody, Emily, right? Who was just so awesome and creative and kind of talked through all the characters and like being various members of Omega Church, uh, which is up in our spoiler sode, uh, that's available right now, if you're a Patreon member for $4 a month.
I forgot one of my favorite things about this episode.!
DL: Elanor saying [00:56:00] “Ya Basic.” I had to put this in here. This is like one of the best lines. had to put this in here. This is like one of the best things.
Goodbye y'all. Ya basic.
