Mr. Music the DJ
DL and Krispin talk about S1 E4 titled “Jason Mendoza.” We talk about self-acceptance, shame, and systems that create hierarchies of who is considered good and bad. And we laugh a lot because of Jason Mendoza.
We use the audio from The Good Place Podcast
Krispin mentions Best in Miniature (which you only watch in Canada, or with a VPN)
Leave us a voicemail at (503) 912-4130 or send a voice memo to propheticimaginationstation@gmaill.com.
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TRANSCRIPT
DL: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to This is the Bad Place, a Good Place recap podcast with two ex evangelicals. That's me and that's you, Krispin.
Krispin: Episode four, things are happening.
DL: I'm jazzed.
Krispin: I know this was my favorite episode thus far
DL: This is such a good episode and it's such a fun show to watch and re watch.
Uh, however, you don't have to watch The Good Place or re watch it to enjoy our yammerings about this show. And you can just let the sound of our voices wash over you.
Krispin: I do wonder how good we are at explaining what's going on in the
DL: Yeah, I don't think like an autistic person and the ADHD person who hyper fixate on very different things. I'm not sure we're like the best at recapping.
Krispin: that we each have our own, like, things and there's probably a lot in the middle that is missing,
DL: Yeah, I'm a bit of a [00:01:00] Chidi. You're a bit of a...
Krispin: What am I a bit of?
DL: almost said a Jason, but I'm like, it's not accurate.
Krispin: I’m a bit of Jason. There's nobody that I particularly identify with a lot. I think I try to be a Tahani, but I'm not a Tahani.
DL: Yeah, there's a bit of Tahani in you.
Krispin: But I'm a big people pleaser.
DL: That's so true. So... Yeah, The Good Place, the show that first aired in 2016.
Um, we're talking about episode four today, chapter four, which is about...
Krispin: Jason Mendoza. Yes,
DL: that took you a while, but yes. Finally, we get to talk about Jason, who is not a Taiwanese monk, after all. No. But is a bro from Jacksonville, Florida. And, and let me tell you, Krispin,
DL: Florida's gonna come up a bit in this show and in this episode. We have Eleanor from Arizona, and Jason from Florida. Because evidently Mike [00:02:00] Shore is like hate Florida and also Arizona at this time period. But yeah. You know what I mean?
Krispin: yeah, totally. I mean, for those that have, you know, have also watched Brooklyn Nine Nine, you can also see the Florida-hate in that show as well.
DL: It's been like a thing for him, which is really fascinating to me, so, okay. I don't think we need to talk about us anymore. Should we go to the synopsis? And remember how like you and I are married and how we love doing projects together and then every once in a while, there will be a part of a project we do together that makes us like fight a lot?
And remember how like trying to do episode synopses um does that? Okay so today we're gonna have Mark Evan Jackson who At some point we'll appear in this show, not yet, and in the realm of this world, not a part of this show. Um, but we're gonna have him do the episode synopsis because he had a Good Place podcast that is quite [00:03:00] a bit better than ours.
Krispin: Quite a bit different.
DL: Quite a I mean, we're talking about the ethical questions, and we are also talking about how we have come out of the bad place, which is Christian fascism, um, white evangelical land. Okay, so I think instead of you and I just fighting over who's the worst at reading a synopsis, I think why don't we just let Mark Evan Jackson do it, okay?
Here we go.
Mark Evan Jackson: Welcome to The Good Place, the podcast. I'm Mark Evan Jackson. I play Sean. Today we're talking about Season 1, Episode 4, Jason Mendoza. Jian Yu reveals to Eleanor that he doesn't belong in The Good Place, and that he's really a drug dealing Filipino American DJ named Jason Mendoza from Jacksonville. His prayer room is actually filled with video games.
Eleanor and Chidi try to convince Jason to hide his real identity. Tahani organizes the launch of a new restaurant, which Jason uses as the opportunity to tell the truth. Eleanor creates a diversion, which ends up causing a giant sinkhole to open in the floor.[00:04:00]
Krispin: Okay. That was succinct. Love hearing his voice.
DL: Oh, he has the best voice. And he's such a Good Place super fan, super nerd, like, I love listening to that podcast. Everyone should go listen to it if you want to even like double your enjoyment. If you're re watching, if you're listening to this one, it's podcast.
Krispin: called The Good Place, the podcast.
DL: So, Krispin, this episode, all about Jason Mendoza, where we, we learned about him, how he's not really a silent Buddhist monk, um, it first came out the very end of September in 2016. So things were heating up with the election. We were all feeling nervous, but like. I'm pretty sure Hillary Clinton's gonna win, let's watch this show on NBC, and then this episode drops.
I'm just putting you in the cultural, [00:05:00] you know, framework.
Krispin: Perfect, yeah.
DL: what did you think when you first watched this episode?
Krispin: It’s funny you bring up the political stuff and it was, it did not really register politically for me. I just remember thinking how trivial, good and bad was.
Like this sense of like, here's this guy just like living his life and he does things that maybe are not wise, but like he's just living his life surviving and it really brings up this like feeling of like, how. Trivial my upbringing was of like thinking through every single action. So that's what I remember feeling, was just sort of like, This is just a dude, and like, why do we put so much emphasis on being good or bad?
DL: Oh, okay. Well, when I watched it in 2016, I remember feeling kind of annoyed at, like, the sinkhole element of, like, Okay, is this just gonna be a sitcom where, like, bad things happen each episode? They sort of get [00:06:00] resolved, but then another bad thing happens. I was, I was a little bit fatigued of, like, oh, is this what this show's gonna be about?
Uh, what made up for that was to me was just how funny Jason was, how every line was hilarious, um, and then sort of like some of the ethical tensions and, you know, we're just getting to know these characters more. Chidi, Eleanor, and this one was so much Jason. It was so fun because he was so new, so different, and uh, you know, little characters like Pillboy.
We'll come back to Pillboy. Pillboy is the best, like literally the best.
Krispin: So you just talked about this piece of like not liking where just stressful things happen.
DL: Yes.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. . Right. I think we were both sensitive people. Sensitive kids. I remember. not liking watching movies like toy story for example because it's just like this is a whole movie about something bad happening and then you have to wait till the very end which was most kids movies
DL: I don't know [00:07:00] if you felt that way.
Krispin: mean, I'm totally tracking with Chidi in this. You just see his facial expression the whole time of just the tension and stress.
And that's how I, yeah, I think how both of us feel watching it.
DL: And Tahani's pretty stressed in this too. And so, I think if we want to go to the rewatch, how we experience it now, I really was more focused on the ways that Eleanor and Chidi both try and partner up to get Jason. to try and pretend and they're like things were so much better when you were pretending whereas we see Jason and through a lot of flashbacks being like pretending has never worked out well for me i like who i am i'm you know and he's like the first character without shame and anxiety that is introduced to us so i was i was more kind of [00:08:00] focusing on that
Krispin: He's a really silly character. We'll talk about that in a minute. But there is this element of like, he's like, “ I really miss being myself.”
DL: Mhm. He says that.
Krispin: Yeah, yeah, at one point they were talking, he was like, I really miss being myself because myself was cool and like just picking up on that and like recognizing what a good character quality that is to be able to show up in the world and say like, I like myself is a huge thing.
And I think that in 2016, that was not even really on my radar at all.
DL: what would you have thought in 2016 when Jason's like, “I like who I am.” I would've thought it was almost like another Florida man joke. Right? Uhhuh, people, chaotic people. Uh, you know, like, haven't self reflected enough, which is why [00:09:00] they still like themselves, right?
Krispin: And that what's so interesting about this episode is like, sorry, I got excited about that
DL: you did, my goodness.
Krispin: Because, it does at first watch…
It kind of feels like here's someone who's not reflective, but watching it back, you can see his wheels turning and he is reflective. He's like, “no, actually, like, I do like being who I am, and I do not like hiding behind a mask,” which he literally does at some point. Like he, he, you know, is, uh, wears the mask of another DJ pretending to be that DJ. But then he's like, no, I don't want to wear the mask. Like, I want to show up in this world who I am. And I think that's a really beautiful thing that comes from a deep place within him.
DL: Yeah, and I think this episode really is showing, like, for people like Jason, like, you can't really mask for that long. So then what does that mean for this system that says you have to? So that's like. For me, that's kind of the ethical question. We'll get to the ethical question. Um, [00:10:00] but, do you have any favorite things about this episode?
Krispin: Everything that Jason says, like at the beginning, he says, Alright, this is either an alien zoo or a prank show. Right?
DL: then Elanor's like, “No. we're dead. Like, this is the afterlife.”
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: the alien zoo or prank show, I'm like, okay, love it.
Krispin: she asks him like, you know, What did you do for a living? One of the things that he says is, one of his professions is doing pranks on vine. Which is funny, because I think Vine had already like, been out by then…
DL: No, I think it was still around, but now it's not. A lot of the vine stars were from Florida.
Krispin: Like, stupid people just do stupid [00:11:00] stuff. Um, in one of the flashbacks, we learn that his DJ name is Mr. Music the DJ,
DL: Mr. Music, the DJ. Yep.
Krispin: right? And um, also, of course, in this episode, uh, as Mark Evan Jackson mentioned, he has his meditation room that is actually just filled with video games and like posters of Victoria's Secret models.
DL: know, I was like, is that one of the Jenners? Like, Kylie Jenner? I could not figure out who were on the posters.
Krispin: I don't know either. I feel like it's one of the, I feel like there's one of the Kates who was married to a soccer player that was a Victoria's Secret model was one of them.
DL: he calls it his bud hole.
Krispin: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Right. But he calls it his bud hole. And so he tells Eleanor like, let me show you my bud hole.
DL: Um,
Krispin: then we find out is a hole where he hangs out with his buddies.
DL: is a [00:12:00] great name for like a marijuana cave
Krispin: I know, that's what I thought. I was like, I totally thought that's where they were going.
DL: is before it was legalized in Oregon, so they couldn't make those jokes.
But I do, now I make that joke.
Krispin: Yeah, I could just keep going, but I won't.
DL: Um, y'all should go back and rewatch it and chuckle for yourselves. So many good elements. I think my, one of my favorite parts, and this is like, so. Small, but I just love it when Eleanor hears some EDM music and goes and, and Jason is wearing like a Florida Jaguars Jersey over his Buddhist monk outfit is just kind of like dancing weirdly.
And like, if you look at him in the background, he's just like fidgeting with his like Jersey the whole time, like this really weird little, you know, ADHD kind of way. And I just thought it was great. He's a very physical actor, Manny Jacinto. And he's, he's incredible. This is like, I think, one of his first big acting roles and, um, he basically, I guess, kind of surprised a lot of people because he was literally silent for the first three. [00:13:00] then he just busts out into this episode and you're like, this person's a star, like a star. Right. He got to say one of the absolute best lines is… “I'm not really a Taiwanese monk. I am Filipino. Heaven is racist. Heaven is a racist.” And I was like, should I put that on a key chain?
Krispin: Heaven is racist. I love it.
DL: that's a good one, right?
Krispin: Um, other parts I loved, uh, Tahani, whenever she has very British lines, like when they're keeping the secret from Tahani and she sort of picks up on it and she says, you've got a whisper in your snicker box. And also,
DL: Snickerbox sounds very dirty, if you ask me.
Krispin: It's one of those like, British things that sounds not real.
DL: I'm Googling it.
Krispin: I don't know. I mean, it could be. It could not be.
DL: No. You can [00:14:00] all Google Snickerbox and come to your own conclusions. I'm not gonna share what I found here, but you can all Google that.
Krispin: all Google Snickerbox Eleanor's favorite meal on Earth was the hunger strike to protest Bolivian sex trafficking where she didn't eat anything.
DL: the meals people had. Um. And I feel like one was fried chicken with gold on it, like, pieces of gold scattered on the fried chicken. Um, you and I can talk about what our favorite meals would be in heaven, if you want to, but we don't have to. Mine would be, like, Taco Bell.
Krispin: It's funny, mine would be enchilada casserole.
DL: my gosh.
Krispin: Which is like, you know, what you do if you grew up in a white…
DL: lower, lower middle class, so.
Krispin: Like it is really nothing to do with mexican cuisine, let's be clear
DL: Yeah, mine [00:15:00] would probably be Taco Bell or, like, mashed potatoes and gravy, because I do love that. I did
Krispin: love that somebody had peanut M& Ms, just a plate of peanut M& Ms.
DL: Oh, is that what they were? I thought they were gumballs. Okay, but maybe not. Okay, let's get to my favorite part, which is, what is the ethical question or dilemma presented in this episode?
I'll just start a tiny bit and then I'll get your feedback on this. So we have Professor Chidi, you know, parts of that in this episode with his blackboard. I took a screenshot. of everything on it, which we can share, you know, in our Instagram. But, uh, basically, it's a bunch of, you know, people from back in the day.
We have Plato and the Republic, and this is all about conceptions of the self, okay? Then we have D. Anima, which I guess was a treatise by Aristotle. Then we have John Locke's Parable of the Sock. We have the Bhagavad Gita. We have Lao Tzu. [00:16:00] Um, and then David Hume. So, my eyes are already glazing over. I tried researching all these things.
Basically, like, the parable of the sock is just this question. Like, if you have a pair of socks, it gets a hole, and you patch that hole. Is it still your pair of socks? What if you patch another hole? What if you patch another hole? What if you patch another And basically you, like, re patch all of it. Is it still your sock? Which, this is the shit that people thought about back then, and I just don't care about it at all..
Krispin: I resonate deeply.
DL: Okay, With what?
Krispin: With the parable of the sun
DL: Oh, why?
Krispin: Because, okay, so this is what I wanted to get into, and this is like, I think pretty specific to growing up evangelical, but I think a lot of people have some version of this. As a therapist, I will say most people have some version of this, that struggle with like self-criticism, etc. So we'll, we'll tie that in [00:17:00] outside of evangelicalism, but for me, I grew up being told like, you are loved as you are.
But, you also are sinful, and so, like, if you weren't sinful, if you were a good version of yourself, like, you would be totally different. And for me, I was like, well, does that mean I'm really loved if, really, the only acceptable version of myself is this, like, better version? And for me, it was like, you're gonna get into heaven, and you're gonna be perfect there, and God's gonna love you, and, like, God loves that version of you.
God doesn't really love the version of you that exists now. which I think really parallels with if you grew up in a home where your parents are always sort of like, praising you when you're good and shaming you when you're bad, it creates this false sense of self of like, the self that I really am is not lovable.
Right? But like, if I could just be better, then I could, you know, feel better about myself, I could be lovable, I could be good. [00:18:00] And I think it relates to the sock piece, because it's sort of like, yeah, if it's like this. You know, better version of yourself that is lovable, then you don't actually feel loved or accepted as you are.
DL: No, I mean, the way that that plays into both you and I growing up in a high control religion, which is white evangelicalism, that had these very explicitly stated rules for how to be good and how to be lovable.
Like, that makes so much sense to me, and that's obviously how we are coming to watch this show. I think it's fascinating to kind of step back and be like, This show is not coming from that place, right? But... And so it introduces these, like, big picture ethical philosophers, but that's not actually what the episode is about at all.
So I think it's funny. Like, there's stuff for the ethicist nerds, and then there's stuff for people who are more like Jason and Eleanor, who are like, who cares? However... [00:19:00] I do think it's interesting how they're using Chidi and this concept of ethics to say that the way the good place is set up and ordered is correct.
Does that make sense? Right. Yeah. Totally. Like Chidi's teaching them how to be good using these ancient texts, which will support how the good place is set up and running. So let's just keep that in mind, going forward
Krispin: When you say ancient texts, it makes it sound like you're trying to draw a connection to an ancient text we grew up reading.
DL: When people use ancient texts to convince you that you must change who you are and hide your true self in order to earn your place into a quote unquote perfect society, yeah, things can get tricky. Now, the ethical question I kind of zeroed in on sort of is the crux of Jason and, right, what he is [00:20:00] kind of revealing to us, the viewers.
And so I guess I would sum it up like this. The ethical question I came away with is, how good can a place be if you have to hide who you really are to earn your place there? Okay, like how good is that? And I think underneath that question is this concept of trauma, right? And so there's some, that's something that I think later seasons of the show gets into… You're a therapist who works with trauma a lot.
I don't know how much therapists rely on ethicists because these are people trying to figure out how the world works and their work has been used to,
What am I trying to say? Their work has not been very trauma informed, right? At least how it showed up in my life. Christian ethics are not trauma informed at all.
And in, You know, they really mirror what's going [00:21:00] on in the show. The good place too,
Krispin: right? Yeah, totally. I mean, that's the whole thing is this is all set up on the premise of if you're a good person, you deserve certain things.
If you're a bad person, you deserve other things, right? You're lovable. If you're a good, you're not lovable if you're bad. Which, uh, which actually, like we see Chidi also subverting because he, in some sense loves Eleanor enough. Even though she's been bad to try to get her good things. So he's actually like going against that system in a way Well, so upholding it, but I think that there's, yeah, this whole idea of there are good people and there are bad people and a trauma informed approach is like, we all learn to adapt in certain ways and act in certain ways.
And that doesn't mean that we don't let people off the hook for their actions and how they impact others. But I think that there's this piece that is important that at least I approach things with, which is that. People are inherently [00:22:00] valuable and lovable and, um, and so getting into this whole idea of like, are you a good person or a bad person really isn't very helpful, especially when it comes to who gets to decide that, uh, you can decide like this person in my life is like really hurting me and I want to stop having them in my life.
That's fine. But that's different than a whole system that says, like, you either get kept or you get thrown away.
DL: What was the main determiner you were good?
Krispin: Uh, a lot of it was like religious identity. Right? Right. If you're a Christian, you're good. Mm-hmm. , you're not a Christian, you're bad,
DL: You're bad. Not only are you doomed to hell, but you are probably trying to turn society, right, into a place... Where Christians are persecuted and God's angry and you know what I mean? Like [00:23:00] that's what I was taught. And also America's good, you know, other countries are bad. Like it, it, there's a lot of that going on.
But for me, growing up a pastor's kid, homeschooled, right? It's just like, yeah, the secular, godless liberals are bad. Christians are good. And it's funny, like, the farther you get in, right? It's like, well, only a very specific kind of Christian is good, right? Catholics? No. Um, progressive, mainline liberals? No.
Um, Baptists? Not really. Like, it was funny, like, Non denominational, charismatic, like, bread and butter of the right wing currently, like, that was how I grew up. And, obviously, one of the other things was, um, Yeah, conservative politics was good. Liberal democratic politics was bad. And those were 100% bound together.
For my upbringing, my childhood, and including, uh, like, [00:24:00] The curriculum I was raised on as a homeschooled child equated those things as well. Right, yeah, just this really strong polarization. Do you think, do you think that kids in public school were getting that kind of thing? Were they reading in textbooks about how right wing Christians wanted to take over the country and get the Supreme Court on their side and use propaganda to reach You know what I mean?
Krispin: You know what I mean?
DL: they were not. But I was being raised to hear about how. The gay agenda was at work and the liberal like it's so wild to step back and think about how indoctrinated we were. There's the good to see the world and there's good people and there's bad people and of course we're the good
Krispin: people, and of course, we're the good ones.
DL: about, uh, Chidi, is giving Eleanor classes, and then also Jason classes, to be a [00:25:00] better person.
And I was like, oh, that actually was, like, sums up my religious upbringing.
DL: Right? Like,
Krispin: Like, what, like, you know, Sunday school and church can be a lot of things, but it was this training in how to be a better person.
DL: what did we have? Like, I got it from my parents at home. We had like a morning Bible time with my mom. I went to like Wednesday night church. I went to Sunday morning church. When I got older, I went to youth group. That was at least once a week, sometimes more week long summer camps. And then I went to Bible college. So it's like, I've literally been sitting in classes with. People standing up front instructing me how to be a good person.
Um.
Krispin: And I'm thinking also about Christian media. Yeah.
DL: I mean, those are the books we read. Those are the shows we watch. Like it, when people, because sometimes people come for both you and I, when we talk about our problems with Christianity and they're just like, that's how [00:26:00] all religions are. And I'm like.
Let's take a step back, like, the amount of indoctrination I've had is, it's pretty unique, um, and we have a, it's, it's a…if I take a step back, this is religious extremism, like, the amount of indoctrination I've experienced, and the United States has a religious extremism problem, specifically when it comes to white Christian nationalists, and that's what white evangelicalism is, and so I just think it's interesting that you bring up that point, like, the Bliss it instruction and how to fit into this system to be good. Let’s, let's make this a little personal, just like Jason, just like Eleanor. And I think Jason and Eleanor have two really different responses to being told like. You suck, you don't belong here, and you need to try and learn the rules of this [00:27:00] system and absorb the information if you want to earn your place here, okay?
And they both have really different responses. And mine was just... Like cheaties, you know, like, and maybe a little bit of Eleanor that I'm not even aware of. So I am 39 years old, and it wasn't until this last year that I really started to understand that I'm non binary and I have never fit into the strict gender codes and norms of how to be like a good Christian woman.
And, and the pressure to do that was pretty overwhelming and so I just try not to think about it very much and I just knew I was different. Um, I, I dress like a boy, you know, from age 13 to like 15, maybe 12 to 15, like literally. And the only reason my parents didn't freak out [00:28:00] is because I said I was doing it to reach punk rockers for Jesus.
So I dressed like a punk rocker because I started a punk band and cut all my hair short.
Krispin: you knew were boys. Yeah,
DL: there wasn't any girls in that scene. And my parents were also just relieved because I didn't want to have sex with boys. And so that was a huge deal in Christian culture, right? Like, don't dress provocatively. Don't cause men to stumble. Why wasn't I causing it? Men to stumble, okay, with my three sports bras, and a band t shirt, and my cords, and my, uh, weird, you know, chain wallets, and skater shoes. Like, and so I think this episode kind of brought up, like, how much I had to just push down all of that to survive, and I think there's been periods in my life, um, where I have tried to look more like a quote unquote Christian woman, and do That I would curl [00:29:00] my hair, I wore scarves, you know, I was a Christian speaker writer person. I was like I have to conform but that's not really Me and it wasn't until we had our kids and we started having more Friends and relationships with people who are gender expansive. I was like, wait a minute. You don't have to be One or the other There's a lot of us out here that don't fit into this and it's not really a huge deal You Well, it's quite the time to be having those realizations as, you know, trans people and gender nonconforming people of all types are now the biggest scapegoat the religious right has in order to garner votes. So this is pretty personal to me. And it took me so many years to be able to even have the mental capacity to think about this because I was trying so hard to live up to the rules of how to be good in this system. And if we can just get really [00:30:00] personal here.
Krispin: did you just say that two minutes ago?
DL: Did you even one step farther. Um, you know, growing up a pastor's kid, like The level of, like, homophobia and transphobia I have heard throughout the decades of my life.
From my parents, from their friends, from the media I was given, and, and the way it's ramped up in really recent years. It's like, I'm never gonna forget those things. That I've heard people who are supposed to love me unconditionally have said, um, and that's where I think a lot of people are at right now, especially if you come from a place like white evangelicalism, some kind of high control religion that uses the gender binary and gender hierarchy, because that's really what it's about.
It's not about there being a binary. It's about men are different. Should be in charge, right? And women need to be subservient. And trans people, like, ruin all of that. They literally ruin [00:31:00] all of that. Which is why they've become this scapegoat. And it's not just trans people, it's trans kids. That are the scapegoat, and that's, I mean, this is a five alarm call.
Like, if you come from this community, if you come from a Christian community that is scapegoating trans kids, like, Now's the time to fucking revolt! And say, this system isn't good. If you have to demonize children! To keep it going. I'm sorry. That was my rant.
Krispin: You don't need to be sorry. Very important. And I think, I was thinking about that aspect of, like, we both resonated with Jason's acceptance of himself. And it did make me think about the ways that I've learned from queer people, right?
Like, that is the antidote to shame. Is to be able to like, be like, this is who I am, [00:32:00] like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna put on a mask, I don't wanna fit in, you know, into the system, like, force myself to fit into the system, I'm not saying that is, has not come at such a great cost, and that is, I think, the way forward, um, and I think not just with queer people, but with neurodivergent people, and like, so many folks that, like, do not fit in, like, a white supremist system, you know.
I was trying to think, I'm like, does Jason have anything to be ashamed about? Like,
DL: Everything that was talked about in this episode, what do you think?
Krispin: I mean, maybe selling fake drugs to college kids?
DL: but if we think about how he was raised, he's obviously lower income. So I'm like, in my mind, he's selling fake drugs to privileged white kids, probably, right? Like, is that such a problem?
To not get them high? You know, hopefully there's nothing that would kill him. I guess that would be bad. Um, he, when he [00:33:00] throws the Molotov cocktail at the speedboat, I'm like, Yeah! Down with the bourgeoisie! You know, like, it's a speedboat! Like, that's great! Like, we can, we can blow up speedboats and that, that fits within my moral framework, uh, currently.
But, you know, who knows? Who knows? Yeah.
Krispin: No, I, I totally agree. And that's the thing is like, that element of like, this is just a guy living his life. Like, maybe they're not the smartest decisions, but like,
DL: but also I think it's just so fascinating how Jason fits into like the Florida of it all. Um, because to me Florida is such like a little wrinkle in this view of America and how it views itself and probably specifically how like, The liberal, elite media, Hollywood types, right?
You can think all you want about America and then Florida just keeps happening, right? And this is really ramped up since 2016. Like if we think about Ron [00:34:00] DeSantis, everything going on with Florida right now. It is truly wild and I'm like, don't want to make jokes about it, except I'm like, Florida has always been revealing what we really are, you know, like, America has a lot of issues.
And what Florida is doing right now with its schools and what people are allowed to teach, like, It's very interesting to me, and people like Jason, that can just be like, Yeah, this place is incredibly messed up, and I'm gonna dance, you know? I'm just like, that's such a valid reaction to Being shown systemic societal failure over and over and over again, you know, like to say like screw it I'm gonna be who I am and I'm gonna dance like that is Gen Z in a nutshell if you ask me
Krispin: I am surprised like thinking about Jason and like just thinking of [00:35:00] him first watch around as just this silly guy.
Uh, as even as we're talking, I'm like, I am surprised at how much we are admiring him.
DL: I, like, that is such a difference between how I first watched the show when I was still an evangelical and white knuckling it through life, and I still believed there were rules I could follow. to be a good person and get, not just into heaven, but, like, make Christianity good, make America good, and I think there's so much fun stuff for me going back around.
DL: Um, I just, you know. Was there anything you felt like you had to hide to be a good person in Evangelical Christianity?
Krispin: I mean lots and I think I mean, yeah, I think about like probably the biggest thing was just Um, All along, not feeling as connected to God, not feeling the joy of the Lord, like all those things, just like, was off. Feeling like something was off, like all those years. Like I [00:36:00] remember us like going to church in 2012 and just being like, there's just something really wrong with me, but I guess I'll just keep going.
DL: You know? And that's why, you know, I think first watch around, we really identified with Hanani and Chidi, both people who are trying like, yeah, we deserve to be here. This, this system is working as designed and, but oh, we both feel kind of terrible.
Krispin: Mm hmm.
DL: okay, well, Let's get to the next part, which is “You might have religious trauma if….”
Krispin: Thank you for doing the accent.
DL: I was trying to, yeah.
Krispin: to, you know...
DL: can't really do a Jeff Foxworthy, but that was my attempt. Uh, you love this segment. What do you have, babe? Me?
DL: Okay. Uh, You might have religious trauma if you got really sweaty at that dining room scene where everybody had to stand up and go around and talk about their meal, okay?
Because this is such like a youth group or like a church camp or like a church setting [00:37:00]experience, right? Where everybody has to go around and share something or it's like a group prayer and you're like, I have to do something that Shows I am spiritual. I'm tracking.
Krispin: That's insightful.
DL: insightful. Like I have to share.
And like, I don't know if you remember like testimony nights, right? When you had to confess some sin in your life, which by the way is cult 101 is getting people to confess things. Cause then you feel bonded to the group and you need that group to feel better about yourself from that point on. So anyways, that's a cult tactic.
I experienced that a lot. And I was like a homeschooled pastor's kid who was doing everything right. And so I would be stressed and like, I have to rack my brain to be like, what's a sin I can confess. Cause I, I never did anything sinful, you know? So that's what I thought of.
Krispin: I love that. I, I had forgotten about that experience. And as soon as you said that, I was like, Oh yes, I totally remember… Right. Yeah. Like counting, like how many people,
DL: it gets to be, and I have to either share [00:38:00] like something God's done in my life, or something I learned in scripture, you know, I'm just like, wow,
Krispin: right? Yeah. That, or like, you know, the prayer, you know, nights where you…
DL: Oh, everybody had a prayer, it's like your turn to pray.
Krispin: Okay, so, for me, um, there's this scene where, um, Chidi asks Eleanor, Did you read the book from David Hume? Um, and Eleanor says, I did.
Well, I tried to. Well, I tried to want to want to. And that line, really, it reminds me of this, uh, quote that I, that I was always thinking about from this old Saint, Saint Teresa of Avila, where she says, Oh God, I don't love you. I don't even want to love you, but I want to want to love you.
DL: oh, god.
Krispin: So this idea
DL: St. Teresa, go take a nap![00:39:00] That's what I would say now.
Krispin: Just, yeah, and just that feeling of like, I don't feel this, it doesn't feel right to me, but I must be the problem, and I don't even want to fix this problem, but I should want to want to fix this problem. Right? Uh, just, it always comes back to you. It's, it's never a problem with the system. It's that you're, if you're not feeling it, then there's a problem with you.
DL: Well, yeah.
Krispin: I first heard that quote, first read that quote in a book called Reaching for the Invisible God by Philip Yancey.
DL: oh my gosh! Are you gonna do a segue right now?
Yes. Okay.
Krispin: was why I said you need to go first because I wanted to tack this on, which is just that we've been doing, uh, our Patreon only episode and we've been doing these books from the bad place, uh, where we took a talk about evangelical books and we talked about Dr.
Dobson before, but this time we talked about Philip Yancey, um, and really talk about this.
DL: Can I interrupt? Yes. Philip Yancey [00:40:00] was like the managing editor of Christianity Today for several decades. He's written very, a lot of bestselling books for white evangelicals. His books have sold like 17 million copies and all of them are like, I have my doubts about God, but let me convince you why you should stay Christian.
Krispin: Exactly, yeah. You would think that he's almost an outsider
DL: but he’s 100% the insider of insiders, but… he talks about his doubts….But don't ever give up. Don't ever leave!
Krispin: for me, it was like “I don't feel God sometimes. but no one else is going to love you the way that God loves you.”
You can't give up. It's really hard. But don't ever give up. Don't ever leave. Don't ever leave. This is the good place, even though it doesn't feel like it. Don't ever, ever leave.
Krispin: The frozen yogurt is delicious. Actually no, it's more like, yeah, the frozen yogurt, it doesn't, it's not really that great. It that a sour taste to it, but... it doesn't mean that this isn't the good place.
DL: yogurt will ever love you like frozen yogurt does. [00:41:00] So you guys can listen to that. Join our Patreon, $4 a month. We're putting out excellent content, I will say that. Um... I'll toot our own horn. We have a monthly Books from the Bad Place and then we have a monthly Spoilersode, which I, there's so many things I want to talk about right now that I can't talk about right now.
We will be talking about that for our Patreons. You can find all that info. Come join us. We have a great Facebook group. Okay. I want to get to fun facts.
Krispin: Great.
DL: Is that okay to say? Uh, first fun fact, uh, when they were alive on earth, Eleanor Made money by selling fake drugs to old people, and Jason made money by selling fake drugs to young people.
Krispin: I noticed that.
DL: Okay, I also always have to mention who Tahani name drops. Do you remember any of them?
Krispin: nope
DL: I already mentioned two!
Krispin: Uh, I mean, is getting five Gwyneths from Sophisticate.
DL: Gwyneth Paltrow, The goopness of it all. Okay, and then we had Princess Stephanie of Monaco. Then Posh and Becks. Victoria Beckham and David Beckham. And then, uh, Michael does... Bring up Beyonce in a very meme able point, you know? Anything can be up to 104% perfect, that's how you got Beyonce. Um, the I don't Okay, what else do I have here? Okay, I did look up Cause in the background of this show, you can sometimes see like the names of the places.
And some of the writers at The Good Place are just so good at puns. Did you notice anything? Obviously, like,
Krispin: The Good Plates
DL: yeah, The Good Plates, the main restaurant in this. Okay. But I guess in like season one, like episode one, two, and three, there's, you can see some of these things and somebody wrote it out. I'll just tell you my favorite.
Okay. One place is called Warm Blankets. One place is called Your anticipated needs. We have The Small Adorable Animal Depot. We have a store that's called Everything Fits! Exclamation mark. Now, [00:43:00] let's get to my favorite part. We have Yogurt Acres. We have Let's All Eat Yogurt. We have Good Places Best Yogurt. GPBY. We have Yogurt Horizons. My absolute favorite one is Yogurt, Yogurt, Yogurt, Yogurt, and Yogurt is spelled different each iteration. DL: In episode 2, we had the Suggestion of Yogurt. I just can't get over it. I'm sorry, the yogurt, the amount of frozen yogurt places, I can't get over it.
Okay, um, I don't know if you want me to give you any fun facts on...
Uh, the weird philosophers that Chidi's talking about. I tried looking them up.
Krispin: Chidi's talking about, because I tried, like David Hume. What did he do? What's he about?
DL: I don't even know. I think I know. Who is he? He has a lot of good ratings on good reads. [00:44:00] Okay. But when I, when I try and look. He has a lot of good ratings on Goodreads. But I have a lot of
DL: Yes.
Krispin: Yes.
DL: he does, um, much more than you're, you and I have gotten on our books. I'll say that. Uh, but all of these people, when I try and read like the Wikipedia about them, I'm just like, I don't care. None of these people are drama informed. I really don't care. Uh, I will, I will say another of my fun facts are there's some posters at the end.
Tahani is putting up a poster because she has decided to, like, help Michael. help the Good Plates restaurant, even though it has a sinkhole. It's all gonna be patched up soon. And so she makes like a poster for the next grand reopening, which is going to be in a few days. And it says, food so good, it ripped a hole in the universe.
And I just love how she's like, doing her thing, which is like, I'll spin this tragedy, like, and, and it's kind of sad because she even [00:45:00] mentions, like, I'll have a brunch every morning just to boost morale until we can open, you know, just going into people pleaser mode. Um, some of the other posters where she hung up her thing, say things like, train your cat to do tricks.
Which, if I was in heaven, that would, that's the class I'm signing up for. There's one that says 100% sale on yogurt. There's one that says free puppies. They last forever. And another one that says massages until you fall asleep. So I just like all of these like things that you would find in heaven and then yogurt.
It's always. Good things you would find in heaven. Ton of yogurt shit. So there we go. Those are my fun facts
Krispin: it's wild how different this conception of heaven is from what we were raised with, which was just you sing worship songs to God 24 hours a day.
DL: Oh, we'll get into that in another episode, but yes
Krispin: I just want to mention that, like, I, like, [00:46:00] as a kid, if I had known like, You know, massages…
DL: Cats! Puppies! This is not to like get all into trauma town, but do you remember as a kid when you asked your parents, like, are there dogs and cats in heaven? Cause that was a big question to me. I was a cat kid. This is like non binary autistic, whatever.
Yes. I was obsessed with cats. Yes. They were my only friend. Yes. We get it. Okay. Um, you don't remember asking. I was afraid of dogs and, uh, my dad chased all the cats out of our yard with a hose all the time. Well, I did. You know what my parents told me? What they said, no, they don't have souls. End of discussion.
And then I am left to sort of grapple with that and be very sad.
Krispin: We’re gonna grapple with that point again where it's like, heaven is supposed to be something that's supposed to help kids feel good.
DL: I had no friends, I only had my cat and I was told the cat didn't have a soul. That is very sad. It [00:47:00] was very sad.
Krispin: I mean, were you allowed to watch All Dogs Go to Heaven?
DL: Yeah, it was my younger sister's hyper fixation.
Krispin: Oh, cause I remember that being outlawed in some Christian's, uh,
DL: No, my parents liked it because it proved their point that heaven was real, but, just, you know, they didn't actually believe in the dog thing. So… that's it. That's my fun facts.
Krispin: fact!
DL: Okay. We got a listener question. Let's go ahead and play it.
Caller: Hey Mayfield, this is Andrew from Atlanta, Georgia. Huge fan, love all the work you're doing, love the vibes of this season, so much fun. I just want to key chain. No, but seriously, how do we, exiting the spaces we've been in for so long, critique them without using the same lenses and models that we were given? Trying to find ways out of this place, but hard to know if my thinking is even my own thinking. So much brainwashing. Thanks so much, y'all. Keep up the amazing, amazing work.
DL: That was a great question.
Krispin: Yes. I love it so much. I have thoughts on it. It's all right if I, if I give some thought….
DL: yeah, do it.
Krispin: We've been talking about this aspect of, you know, ancient books telling us what's right, and is the framework, right? That I think a lot of us.
DL: Conservative white men who interpreted the ancient books and told us what to think about them.
Krispin: Right, and a lot of like, what upholds the system, what creates the most peace within the system, not actual peace, but what doesn't rock the boat, right? What sort of logical quote unquote, from a certain standpoint. And so I think the antidote to that is getting in touch with your body and noticing like what are the emotions that come up?
What is my [00:49:00] experience? Um, what are the experiences of other people? Especially those who tend to be, especially those who are harmed or oppressed by these systems. Um, But I think just starting with this, like, how do I feel in this space? What do I notice coming up? That doesn't always give us objective truth, which I don't think there is any, but it gives us really important information.
So that's, that's, I think one of the things that is really important. And even just like, I know I keep on coming back to this, but I'm sitting here again in front of our bookshelf thinking about all the books that I've read, trying to figure it all out.
Krispin: And I am really loving being in a place where I can just like check in with my body about like, What feels true in this moment? Is this a good thing or a bad thing for me? And kind of making decisions based on that.
DL: I'll get real specific and I'll say honestly, the best thing you can do is to understand that you have been a product of [00:50:00] indoctrination.
Childhood indoctrination, you know, if you were born and raised in white evangelicalism, some people opt into it. I still think, like, lots of people get brainwashed. It doesn't mean you're not smart or any of those things. Um, you might have some trauma that makes you vulnerable to, to things, of course. But just identifying that What you've experienced is literally brainwashing and you can, if you don't believe me, you can look up Robert Lifton's, you know, eight methods of brainwashing tactics that he studied in Maoist China and almost all of them match up to evangelical indoctrination culture.
So that is literally what's happened and the best thing you can do to combat a bunch of brainwashing is to get in touch with who you actually are and I've done that in a variety of methods. Somatic. therapy and somatic work where it connects you to your physical body is such a huge thing for people who come out of evangelicalism where we're just always policing our thoughts and trying to get our [00:51:00] thoughts, you know, in a Chidi way.
And that's why, again, I love Jason. He's a dancer, like, literally. That's one of the best antidotes to brainwashing, is being a physical being. Finding ways to move your body, singing! Singing songs that aren't, uh, worship indoctrination songs. Like, you probably have many, many hours of having to sing, uh, worship songs if you grew up like us.
Um, find some stuff you actually like to sing and do that. Um, these are just my little tips and tricks, and just have some fun doing what you want to do. Um, for no other good purpose than you like to do it.
Also my question for the person who sent in the question is, do you want a keychain that says BORTLES or do you want a keychain that says yogurt, yogurt, yogurt, uh, because I'll make you one of those and that's our offer to anyone.
If you call in, uh, to our number, give us a question and we put it up. I'm going to make you a weird ass keychain. Okay?
Krispin: Okay! Love it. Thanks again, Andrew, for calling
DL: thank you so [00:52:00] much.
DL: Time for The Good Place. Like what's good? What's good? Remember how I was catastrophizing so much this week?
Krispin: And then the sun turned red? I
DL: know, okay, but no, we can't talk about that. What is good? Krispin, what's good?
Krispin: Uh, I'm worried I'm going to steal yours, but I am really enjoying this reality TV show we are watching called Best in Miniature, where people compete by building the best miniature houses.
DL: Miniatures is awesome. That's not mine though.
Krispin: What's yours?
DL: Oh, mine is a trans kids. Trans kids are great and they need to be protected at all costs and they are the ones who are asking. Our society, if we will let kids be who they really are, or if we are going to turn them into a scapegoat in order to get votes. And [00:53:00] if we as a society are okay with that or not.
And they're beautiful, precious, and they deserve to be protected. And we're failing them right now, but they are good. So that's what I want to say.
Krispin: way to take the Good Place segment and tie it into the hellscape
DL: But trans kids are so good! If we could just listen to them, our society would radically change for the better. So that's how I'm ending it today. This is what happens when you let me be the show notes writer or whatever. Thanks everyone for listening along. We are so enjoying this rewatch show. Thanks for all your support. Thanks for supporting our Patreon. We have more Patreons than we've ever had before. Even though we keep getting more and more intense.
Krispin: So great.
DL: shocked. Thanks so much. We love our Facebook group. Come join us, and, uh, we'll see you next time for episode 5.
Krispin: Bye y'all.
