60 Billion Dollars

DL and Krispin talk about S1 E3 titled "Tahani Al Jamil." We talk about what makes a person good, directional insanity and what could be done with 60 billion dollars.

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TRANSCRIPT:

DL: [00:00:00] Okay, welcome to episode three of This is the Bad Place, and today we're talking about chapter three of The Good Place, which is called Tahani al Jamil. So it's all about Tehani. Hi Krispin! This one because things are gonna find out some stuff.

Krispin: Some stuff. Who has been sending Elanor slips of paper under the door?

DL: Yeah.

Krispin: Which sounds like not a big deal as I say it out loud.

DL: Right, it's just about who, do you belong in the good place or not? So yeah, episode three starts to kick things off a little bit, right? Yeah. Yeah, and this, so this episode is called Tehani al Jamil, so obviously it's about the character of Tehani who is played by Jamila Jamil, who I love, um, in this, in this show.

We already talked about her a little bit. And so I think... Right away, it's, it's starting to get into the, you know, the granular aspects of these characters personalities. But before we really get into it, I want to say, I think some people are not watching The Good Place, and I think some people are not re-watching The Good Place, and that's totally Fine.

Hopefully we'll just jabber and you can follow along, right?

Krispin: yeah!

DL: Okay, here's the synopsis: So Chidi begins formally teaching Eleanor ethics. The first lesson is to be kind to your neighbor, which Eleanor loathes to do, considering her distaste for her nemesis, who is Tahani. Michael and Janet help find Chidi a new exciting hobby, instead of ethics, which only serves to stress Chidi out.

Eleanor gets conscripted into becoming Michael's assistant. And at the end, Jianyu finally... talks. That's the big reveal at the end of this episode: Jianyu talks. And I was excited to get to that. But we can't even really talk about Jianyu until next episode! So we'll get to that. it’s a brilliant 30 seconds when you're Finally he talks, finally we know.

Krispin: Jian Yu is panicked.

DL: instead of like it being about Eleanor, and Eleanor is going to be discovered, all of a sudden it switches at the very end to, like, Jianyu is panicked because he also doesn't belong, and so... Somehow he, he's, he, uh, sniffed it out about Eleanor, so we'll get to that in the next episode, but anything else you would add to the synopsis of episode 3?

Krispin: Yeah, so there is a little subplot here around Chidi. He spent his life, basically his life's work, was writing about ethics. He wrote a 3,600 page book that he never finished about ethics and philosophy. And basically it was like, “this was my life's work. Was it all for nothing? I didn't even finish it.” And Michael the angel says, like, “I can read all of the literature in history in an hour. it took me two weeks to read your [00:03:00] manuscript.

DL: which is so mean.

Krispin: Right, yeah, so Chidi is like, trying to figure out like, am I, like, am I a good philosopher? Am I, like, was my life for nothing? So I think that's an important, like, aspect as we're getting to know these characters, right?

DL: Which is why the whole sub plot about finding him a new hobby because writing about ethics, you know, “Chidi needs something else besides that,” right? And then he gets stressed.

DL: Let’s do the Watch/Rewatch. Do you remember watching this episode in 2016 when it came out?

Krispin: I do. Um, I have to be honest and I felt a little bit bored the first time.

DL: Really?

Krispin: Yeah, because it just felt like I just want to [00:04:00] know what's going on with Eleanor. And it just kind of feels like they're just paying attention to these like relationships and it's sort of like getting into, you know, Chidi and Eleanor and figuring out how to be good people.

And I remember it really felt like they are sort of doing this like, My Fair Lady-ing Eleanor, of just like trying to teach her proper etiquette.

DL: Okay.

Krispin: Which felt like, that's not, to me it felt like, that's not really the core of being a good person. It's just like, you know, Tahani brings her a plant, so Chidi's like, you should bring her some fruit in return.

And that's just like, you know, following the rules of polite society. That's not actually ethical. So I just remember feeling kind of like, bored by that, but then excited right at the end when we find out that Jianyu says, I'm not a Buddhist monk, um, and I don't belong here either, and I don't know what's going on.

DL: Help me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I definitely remember the twist at the end being like, “here we go!” Like “now we're cooking with gas!” And I do think I enjoyed this episode because, [00:05:00] It's, there's a lot more jokes in it. So like, Janet is very funny in this episode, right? And so I just love Janet in it.

DL: And I think the first watch around, yeah, you're like, okay, Eleanor's the problem. Eleanor needs to learn to be better.

All the flashbacks are of Eleanor being terrible, um. And then Tahani is like this really good person, right? And now if we can go into the rewatch. How we are today, I, I think it's much more nuanced than that, right? And it's since the title of the episode is Tahani, I just thought, okay, I'm going to focus on her and what this is saying about her.

And I think it's much more interesting when you're like, Oh yeah, this episode is actually not about Eleanor, even though all the flashbacks, everything, you know?

Krispin: It is titled Tahani, but I re watching it really focused [00:06:00] on Chidi Because Chidi is really feeling torn He is teaching Eleanor how to be a good person, while at the same time trying to reckon with like “am I actually a good ethicist? Can I be trusted?” You know, so I thought that was interesting He's really wrestling through his own thing, which again is a weird thing to have happen in the Good Place. But I think there is this like insecurity of like, have I been deluding myself because I spent all this time writing in circles?

And so like, I feel like Chidi is sort of wrestling a little bit with like, “was my work for naught?” Which maybe is different than being a good person. I'll give you that. But I think there is this like wrestling that's going on with him.

DL: Yeah, okay. Anything else on your rewatch? Um,

Krispin: think also it just reminded me of being in school and like academics being so boring and being like these people talking about like, I really relate to Eleanor when she's like, why should we listen to these [00:07:00] old dead men?

DL: She says, “Who died and made Aristotle the authority on ethics?” And Chidi’s just like, “PLATO!” Right, exactly. Socrates died and made Plato the I mean, Plato died and made Aristotle the… You know, it's all up on his, uh, chalkboard.

Krispin: and I remember being at school and being like, I should care about not those people. Well, we cared about different people.

DL: Yeah, I'm like, tell me one thing you know about Socrates, or Plato, or Aristotle Krispin. I'd be very curious to hear.

Krispin: the LaCroix meme about, like, essence of something and the true thing and the

DL: There's a LaCroix about Plato's famous cave metaphor of the cave?

Krispin: Yes. I, I definitely have some Eleanor vibes.

DL: you do. Yes you do. It's not like I know much more than that. And in one sense, I do think this entire episode is Mike Shur getting out all of [00:08:00] his judgment on ethical and moral philosophers and how they write. It’s him just trolling all of them.

Mm-hmm. with Chidi’s manuscript. Right. Because I too have tried to read. Kant, Plato, and oh my god, they are just… It's terrible writing. I'm allowed to say that right? You can be good at ethics and be very succinct writer. Okay, you don't have to be like them. That's what I think. That's my hill to die on Okay

Krispin: I like that you're criticizing, is that like ancient Greek writing?

DL: Oh, like rhetorical analysis? But also like, yeah, but also like modern day, like Kierkegaard for instance, like “Kierkegaard, you were really sad and wanted to die.” Like, “that's what's going on with you, and then that's how you frame the world.” That's me summing it up, right? Okay, so, I'm obviously so good at ethics, so much better than all these people.

Krispin: There is a moment, this element of, like, what [00:09:00] I'm hearing you say is, like, if any of these people had a little bit more self-awareness, they may have, might have written differently.

DL: or they were only writing in these rarefied worlds where only a few people could track with what they were saying. And I find that surprise, surprise, unconscious, ethically wrong.

No, let's go back to ethics. I find the way ethics are written about to be ethically and morally wrong, so that's me. Yeah. But that's why I like Mike Schur. He was like, no, we're going to do this for realsies and give lots of examples of people to examine, uh, moral absolutes. So what was your, what are some of your favorite things about the episode?

Krispin: My top favorite thing is when they are trying to give Chidi a new hobby, they suggest cartographer, and he's like, . He's like, I am. I'm not gonna be good at this because I've been diagnosed with directional…

DL: directional insanity. It's one of the best lines. It really is.

Krispin: And then they're leaving [00:10:00] and he walks the opposite direction. Okay.

DL: which one of us has more directional insanity, Krispin? Uh, I think actually you. Is that okay to say?

DL: it's fine, but you have a touch of it yourself. There's no shame in it. I am so happy I live in a world with GPS and I live in a world where like Literally to my older sister Lindsey's house, I have to map it on my phone. And follow the driving directions. If I tried to get there on my own, the directional insanity would hit me. And I'd be very stressed out.

I'm not kidding! I know you're not as bad as me, in that way. But I also have driving anxiety on top of it. I'm sure Chidi does too.

Krispin: add this to the pile of ways you and Chidi have similarities. Yeah, okay.

DL: One of my favorite things, because you can think about more if you have them, okay? One of my favorite things is the [00:11:00] title of Chidi's book that he was working on. Who We Are and Who We Are Not: Practical Ethics and Their Application in the Modern World; A Treatise on the…. And then they cut him off. So I'm just like, What is it gonna be?!

Krispin: Right. It’s only half of the title.

DL: So good. Dude, I am known for wanting to have such long subtitles on my books. Mm-hmm. , and I do get them. I've, I've battled it out and got some long subtitles on my books. Right. Reflections on affluents, autonomy, safety, and power.

Krispin: When you send me drafts of things, I expect like a full, you know, two lines

DL: Oh, I love it.

Krispin: Or something vague like, Dobson! We got Dobson here!

DL: There's one of two extremes with me. That's it. Yeah. So I love that. Um, what else did you like?

Krispin: I, um, loved Jianyu's and Tahani's interactions because we just see Tahani's [00:12:00]frustrations bubbling over. Like, Eleanor comes over to visit and Jianyu has his eyes closed and she's like, is he asleep? And Tahani's like, I don't know. Um, and then also like she asked JianYu if he wants to see any nods and then leaves the room.

Krispin: apparently that means no. Like you just get this sense of like, you know, her being like, this is my soulmate and it is like going worst pot, maybe not worst possible, but like gaslighting where it's possible. Right. Like it's not outright bad. It's like, you know, this person that's supposed to be like so peaceful and enlightened and yet like… She doesn't know how to connect with him at all, which is sad for her, comes up, she does cry, but I do love seeing those interactions.

Another thing that I love, a lot of these focus on Tahani, I guess, um, when Eleanor goes over to Tahani's house, Tahani's house is very Jane Austen. She has a British accent, she sits on one of the slouchy couches, you know, and it's like, We haven't had a chance to discuss all the mayhem in the neighborhood[00:13:00]

DL: Nice accent.

Krispin: Right? She's like, I'm sure I don't know what it's about. Like, I just really, part of it was just like, Oh yeah, I forgot that when I was a teenager, I loved watching Jane Austen movies and this sort of brings me back.

DL: Oh, okay.

Krispin: sort of unrelated to anything other than my own personal history.

DL: It's funny because when finally at the end of the episode when Chidi’s sort of like, okay, Tahani’s not perfect, he says she's British, and like, and condescending and condescending.

Being British, you know, is the, is one of the main strikes, uh, against her, so I thought that was funny.

Krispin: I love how he's like, being British, you know, is one of the main strikes against her, so I love this

DL: Yes, and if we followed sports, local sports specifically, that joke would probably be a lot funnier to us. True. But we just know there is a team here in Portland called the Trailblazers. We know that, okay? We know [00:14:00] that.

Krispin: I mean, in the 90s, they were known as the “Jailblazers.” For reasons I don't know.

DL: I don’t know either. I just assumed something bad because right before that, Janet has one of the best fun facts. By the way, “Fun Facts Janet” is where I got the whole segment to do fun facts at the end of this podcast, so, um, you know, Janet's fun facts about Columbus was amazing. He's in the bad place. Okay, I have some other fun facts, but I'm going to save that for the end. Okay.

Krispin: Janet's Fun Facts.

DL: We have a whole section about it. So now we get to my favorite part of talking about the show, which is we talk about the ethical question or questions raised in this episode.

Now, I feel like I'm going to stress you out if I ask you: what do you think the ethical questions asked in this episode are? Well, I have a different idea. Right. So I want you to go first…

Krispin: [00:15:00] Well, so Tahani has raised 6 billion dollars for, uh, charity, but at the same time is a condescending person.

DL: Sixty billion. Sixty

Krispin: Did I say 6?

DL: billion? Yeah.

Krispin: Okay. We got to get those numbers correct.

DL: Yeah, we do.

Krispin: Uh, right? And so like, I think that brings up sort of a question, because the whole question is like, what makes a good person? Doing good things is sort of what Chidi says. But I think that there are different ways that episode sort of like, undermines that.

DL: Oh, I think that's it, because if you look at the blackboard at the beginning of the episode where Chidi's, you know, doing his history, not history, doing his philosophy professor thing, right, it has Socrates, then Plato, then Aristotle, and it's basically summed up [00:16:00] as good deeds, good deeds, good deeds, good deeds, good deeds.

It's like, if you do a bunch of good deeds, then it makes you a good person. And Chidi seems very happy with this, that's what he's teaching Eleanor. Tahani, you know, the namesake of this episode is held up as like, The example of that, right? Tahani has raised 60 billion dollars for charity. Tahani is helpful. Tahani bakes scones. Tahani always looks gorgeous….

Krispin: That's, that's her good deed?

DL: that's her good deed. That is! In a patriarchal society? Yes, that's true. Like, that's one of her good deeds, okay?

Krispin: mean, when she first walks into Eleanor's house, she's like, “Hello!” Sort of in this way of like, I'm here. Like, “I'm the gift to the world.”

DL: And “I'll put you at ease,” and um, So Tahani is seen as this, like, You know, plutonic ideal, get it?

Um, of a good person because their deeds match up. I think Chidi also puts himself into this category and his good deeds are reading these philosophers, writing [00:17:00] about it, studying it, and teaching other people about it, right? So we have the good people. And then Jianyu obviously is sort of like seen as good because he's a monk who doesn't talk.

So we're like, yes, that person's devoted themselves to a spirituality that is…That's good. Right? And they deny themselves and so therefore that's a good deed. They're good. So that leaves Eleanor, right? Oh, yeah, and the past flashbacks are interesting. Did you notice like the sound and everything? Whenever they go to a flashback, it's the same sound that the show Lost used. It's like the shooooom.

Krispin: ah, interesting.

DL: I was like, this is Lost, man. This is Lost. I thought the flashbacks Eleanora had were fascinating because they centered around sort of like, all the moral ambiguities, right? Of living in a world full of [00:18:00] Shitty people, basically. And so, the this is shitty systems.

Krispin: And the this is shitty systems.

DL: Yes. So like, Eleanor's boyfriend's like, we shouldn't go to our local coffee shop anymore because the owner got exposed for being like, horrible to women. And Eleanor sort of freaks out, right, and gets extremely defensive, and ends up like, coming back later in the episode in a flashback, right, and basically Proving how she knows like every system's wrong and that her boyfriend's not better than her just because he's like, “Well, I don't want to support this one thing.” She's sort of like, “what about all these other bad things?” And I'm like, that is actually a very important question: Or do you just opt out of one or two things in order to feel better about yourself?

That's kind of what Eleanor's saying, and I'm like, that is actually a very big ethical question. [00:19:00] You know what I mean? And I think this dynamic happens a lot. Like, now that we have access to social media and all this stuff, um, and it's interesting because our oldest child is almost 13 and they're starting to experience this too, right?

If, if they're talking to their friends and they're like, “Oh, I really like this show.” And then someone can be like, “Oh, did you know that the creator said something not great?” And then they have to sort of decide like, “Oh, oh, I didn't know that. Oh, can I not watch it?”

Krispin: You know their solution?

DL: Whose? Our child's? Yes. What?

Krispin: They're like, “I'm gonna watch that show when the creator is dead so they don't get any money from it.”

DL: Yeah, that was interesting.

Krispin:, I think that's like that's actually an interesting, like, take on it.

DL: And everybody's trying to figure it out and people have different motivations and I don't think.

Even in The Good Place, they were saying, like, everybody who points out something's wrong, like, they're not doing it just to prove they're good. Like, we're all trying to figure out the ethics [00:20:00]of being alive. And, you know, Contributing money or anything to really unethical systems. And it's a huge question, how to be a good person when there's so much corruption, right?

And so some people are just like, well, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, which, fine. To me, that sounds a lot like spiritual bypassing, you know? And so, Elnor is fascinating because these flashbacks are showing her just getting so defensive. And then the same thing comes up with Tahani, right?

There's more going on here than you just do good things, you're a good person. Like, you're really annoying, you make me feel bad about myself. So I think that is so fascinating.

Tahani makes Eleanor feel [00:21:00] bad about herself, right? And that's sort of like what this episode is about. And, and Eleanor even says like, Tahani is my kryptonite. Like the, almost like the perfect person to bring up all my insecurity. But it is interesting. Like, I, I don't think Eleanor's wrong. Like, I think first watch of the episode, Back in 2016, I'm just like, okay, there are enemies, there's tension. But now, looking at it, it's like, yeah…

Krispin: Tahani brings over this plant as a housewarming gift, but then anytime Elinor says something mean about Tahani, the plant…

DL: Dies and causes more stress. And I'm just like, that is fascinating. A fascinating metaphor, right? For these people who, them constantly talking about how good they are and how much better they are than you.

Like our society is like, yeah, that makes sense and you should learn to take it. You know? You should learn to feel okay with feeling like a bad person, but okay, I have more to say. So here's

Krispin: Okay, I think, like, there's something here about, before you say more, uh, [00:22:00] about, like….there are the deeds you do, but what kind of person are you? And so I think it's really striking, Tahani at one point is crying, and Eleanor goes and gives her a hug, and you see empathy. And, like, empathy Tahani's condescending, like, nature. And I think,

DL: And empathy for someone who triggers you? Right. To be able to get over that? Mm hmm. And to work hard?

Krispin: And it makes me wonder, like, is that a good deed or is that a different category? Because that's more about, like, kind of the person you are, which is very different than, like, raising 60 billion for charity. I'm not saying that's not a good thing, but it kind of, like, brings up this, I guess, philosophical question.

DL: and I think what came up to me was when we decide to be good within the frameworks of a system, um, Right? It actually can lead to us making a lot of unethical choices [00:23:00] and being unethical because we're like, well, we figured it out. Let's just keep going this way. For instance, Chidi straight up tells Eleanor in this episode, like, you have to accept it.

Like, you do not belong here. Based off of the rules. Like, Tahani is just objectively a better person than you and you do not belong in the good place. That's extremely cruel. That's like, really bad. And he thinks he's doing the right thing. He thinks that he is a moral philosopher and he sees it all clearly and that he is an arbit you know, an arbitrator of who's good and who's not.

And he's saying things to Eleanor that would crush so many people and that's what I kind of love about Eleanor. She's just like, well maybe that's true. But I can't change. You know, and then she ends up doing this. So I'm just like, Chidi is like Not cool in this episode. Right.

Krispin: I mean there are a few things that Chidi says, so it's interesting. That's why I brought up like him kind of wrestling through like, [00:24:00] you know, are my ethics solid? 'cause he says some things in this episode that I'm like, I don't think that's very ethical. I think another example for Chidi in this episode is that when Eleanor brings the flower over and he's like, you have to reciprocate.

DL: Yeah.

Krispin: I think that actually, I'm like, is that ethical or not? I think that is like boomer patriarchal culture to be like If someone does something good for you, you need to respond in return, because that is in these systems, right? The My Fair Lady-ness of it. The polite society, is like someone gives you something and you have to reciprocate.

You have to like return the favor, which I think actually just actually has the impact of creating communities that are insular and don't pay attention to those that can't give back.

DL: Yeah. So, you know, both of us grew up in white evangelicalism and we were told the rules of the ethical framework and how to be a good person within this framework.

We were, we were taught that very explicitly, right? And, and for both of us growing [00:25:00] up in homes where white evangelical parenting methods were utilized, like by Dr. Dobson and all that, you know, that involved being spanked, punished, guilt, shamed. Whenever we Didn't align with our parents desires. And so this is like from tiny little things, like, are you going to eat all your food?

Are you going to be a picky eater? Like I was not allowed to be a picky eater. Right. And so being forced to eat food, you know, to the big, like, if you don't accept Jesus into your heart, you're going to go to hell and make mommy sad. Like, so why don't you do that? You know. So we learned how to be good within this framework, and then it ended up, it ended up making us really unethical to people, and making decisions, even in our minds, where we conceptualize the world into good and bad, right?

DL: if you stay there, you can just see how it leads, to you treating people so badly while at the same time believing you are good. So I think Chidi and Tahani are both really interesting examples of that. And then I, [00:26:00] I'll come back to Eleanor in a minute, but I wanna hear about you growing up in a framework where the hierarchy was so pronounced and everybody around you was like, this is the way it is.

Krispin: Yeah, I, I mean, I remember as a teenager starting to have my questions and doubts and then kind of getting to this point of like, “well, I guess that's just the way it is.” Like, “I'm going to hold my internal experience separately from other everyone else. “Although then I got into ethics in college. It wasn't like we talked about, it wasn't ethics. It was different kinds of theology, but it was like, “oh, actually this whole system that just upholds power, like maybe isn't representative of the person of Jesus,” which was really freeing for me. But I want to go back to Tahani giving something and then she's like, you have to give something back because I think that really encompasses what I grew up with, which was like, “God loves you. Your parents love you. Look at all the stuff we've done for you. Therefore, you have to give [00:27:00] back and you have to obey.”

DL: And dedicate your life to this, yeah.

Krispin: so the idea of being good was actually tied into like loyalty and control. And I don't think that's unique to white evangelicalism either. I think like so many societies, you can kind of think of it as love bombing, right?

Whether it's like you, you know, get a job at like a law firm and it's like, this is your opportunity. Therefore, you have to like devote every single hour. You know, like, and it creates these unethical things. But it's really focused on like your own guilt and shame, right? If you want to feel like a good person, then you have to pay this person back in a way.

DL: Yeah, it's interesting, because, like... Uh, like a story that comes to my mind is when, you know, you and I met at Bible College here in Portland at Multnomah Bible College and,

Krispin: like, one of the

DL: Um, I remember being in a class with like one of the professors that everyone loved.

He was like liberal because he went to like a Jesuit university which was like a really big deal for our little fundy school. Everybody loved him and it was [00:28:00] like a class on Paul or something and church doctrine and I started sobbing at the end of one class talking about women because if you didn't grow up in white evangelicalism or conservative Christianity, Paul is like someone who wrote supposedly a bunch of letters that are in the New Testament and he has very intense ideas about women, including women should not preach in churches or really shouldn't speak without their hair being covered.

So in our little fundy world, right? Girls couldn't be pastors, all this stuff. Um, and so when I was in this class with this, like, liberal, kind professor, kind of going through Paul's thoughts on women. You know, not putting it in a cultural context at all, and saying basically, like, yeah, this is how it sort of is.

And I started crying. And I just said, like, I don't even remember what I said, but I said something like, this makes me feel so bad. And I remember, it was at the end of the class, and the professor just looked at me, And I was sitting in the front row, because I love this professor. [00:29:00] And he was like, “No! This is good news! Like, this isn't bad news.” And I was like, “You saying that in a nice voice doesn't change anything.” Like, you trying to be like, I'm such a good guy. Like, this religion's so good. Like, why, why would you cry? Like, to me, that's like Chidi, right? Like, I'm not saying this professor was all bad, although I think he's done lots of harm. Partly due to him believing he's such a good liberal guy at this place. But just to be told my inner experience of being... Someone socializes female and I didn't have a right to cry when hearing about how I'm a second class citizen and should never be allowed to preach and just accept it as the way the world, you know what I mean? Like that's the level of gaslighting I've been under. And it comes from these people truly believing they are good. This framework is [00:30:00] good. Anybody who says otherwise, like, well, that's on you.

Krispin: like, Tahani's whole thing is a con. And I think we will see this played out the rest of the season. Like, Tani is insecure.

DL: it’s like, yeah, I know that I'm not an ethical person, but what y'all are trying to get me to buy into doesn't feel a great either. Exactly. Like she, I think she wants to be better, but she's also like, she's like, Tahani's whole thing is a con, is a scam.

And I think we will see this played out the rest of the season. Like Tahani is insecure, like Chidi obviously has anxiety, like there's things going with all these people. They aren't actually. Perfect. And Eleanor can just sniff that out, which is why we love her.

Krispin: But we, in one of our Patreon only episodes recently, we talked about the different family systems, like the scapegoat, or, I mean, the black sheep, the golden child, and, like, which of these characters fit.

So, I just thought that was really fun. So if that's kind [00:31:00] of your jam, you might want to check out the Patreon.

DL: Yeah. Eleanor's a scapegoat.

Krispin: hmm. Scapegoat and black sheep, because she's the one that's like, no, this is, like, effed up. I'm gonna... I don't care what you think of me, I'll be the bad kid, but I also will say, like, there's something wrong with this.

DL: And I think like a good practical thing. It's funny because like, I'm like, is this about ethics?

I think it might be, but maybe not. I think sometimes ethics can get so in our heads when in reality, I re when I re watched this episode I was like, I was paying attention to how the characters made each other feel, right? Michael makes Chidi feel anxious, right? Chidi makes Eleanor feel anxious. Tahani makes Eleanor feel angry.It triggers a fight response. Jianyu makes Tahani feel anxious. And angry.

Krispin: and anxious.

DL: when we find ourselves in these scenarios like white evangelicalism, it’s like, “no, this is the good place. If you have a problem with that, that's on you.” I'm like, just pay attention to [00:32:00] how people make you feel.

If they make you feel anxious, angry, bad, like that's very vital information that we should be cataloging. If someone's like, I'm a really good person and the reason you're feeling this way is all on you, no, that's, that's not true. Maybe I'm getting into therapy land….

Krispin: “feeling this way is all on you, no, that's not, that's not true.”

DL: And, like, I think this comes up all the time, like, I mean, I think part of this hits on, like, don't meet your heroes, because some of the people that have done, you know, amazing things in the world, sometimes are not people that are, like, very emotionally healthy. Well, do you know how devastating that's been for me as an autistic person?

I’ve had the chance to meet some of my heroes and now I'm like, “okay, they're human beings and I can pay attention to how they make me feel.” So yeah, I think that's moving forward, coming as someone socialized into a good bad [00:33:00] binary, you know This is gonna be vital for me going forward just to pay attention to my body cuz I could be a Chidi.

You know, I've been a Chidi so certain of my ethics and then doing things that are really dehumanizing and make people feel really bad, so.

Krispin: Yeah, I think this hits on a shift that I've had in the last year.I think this is, uh, this actually hits on something that I've seen a shift in my own thinking over the past few years.

Definitely this last year. Um, before it was like, am I a good person? Um, Am I a bad person? You know, kind of reflect on my life. And I think a better way of thinking about it is like, am I a healthy person? Like, what's it mean to be human? And healthy is a spectrum. It's not a binary,

DL: right? Yeah.

Krispin: Um, and I think that's even what we see in this, in this episode.

You know, thinking about Eleanor responding, you know, positively to Tahani. Like, that's part of being a healthy person. That's getting in touch with your own emotions.

DL: And I think Eleanor is a great example of someone learning to deal with their triggers. So just because we're going to be all about paying attention to our body, that doesn't mean that you're not responsible for what you do with your body and your triggered emotions. And Eleanor is able to say to Chidi, like, I think Tahani Is making me feel insecure and like just being able to name that she's able to move forward, notice that in herself, and then show up in the way she wants to with Tahani, which is to respond to Tahani's tears with like a genuine human connection. So I'm just like, go Eleanor. Work it on your triggers. This is great.

Krispin: Tahani, which is to in contrast to Tahani, who's like, I have to help people because I have

DL: to figure, yeah. Tehani is not working on her triggers, nor is Chidi. [00:35:00] You know? But Eleanor is. I was mad at GD on this rewatch if you can't tell. Um, yeah.

Okay, we gotta keep going! Yes, okay. it's time for our You Might Have Religious Trauma If... No, say it like how I want you to say it. Do it.

Krispin: I already did a terrible accent. I just have to like really manifest my mustache. You might have religious trauma…

DL: Oh, sorry, I laughed really loud.

You're so bad. And I adore it.

Krispin: Look what you made me do

DL: I did. Okay.

Krispin: yeah, I would say you might have religious trauma if you worry that you weren't good because you did good things to try to feel better about yourself,  because evangelicalism teaches you to police even your motivations, even if you’re doing the things that you want to do or, like, that are good, you end up really focusing on your motivations and feeling insecure about, like, But what if I'm doing this because I'm just faking it and I'm actually a bad person underneath?

DL: Yeah, it's funny, because evangelicalism teaches you to police even your own thoughts in your journaling. Like, you can never have a thought that doesn't align with God. And it is, um, Hellish.

So mine is, you might have religious trauma if you really identified with Tahani when she said, Do you ever have that experience of being somewhere where it's supposed to be perfect but something's off, you know? Something's just off and you can't fix it. She was talking about, Yeah. her soulmate, Jian Yu, not talking to her. But I was like, well, if that isn't all of our experiences in a, in a high control group like white evangelicalism, right? We were doing all the things, going to all the things, journaling, reading our Bibles, praying, and, and we always felt like there was something off, right?

And I, I resonate with that.

DL: this entire episode and this entire season, that is the theme. Things are slightly off. Now, what, did you notice anything else slightly off in this episode? Because I did.

Krispin: Things are slightly off.

DL: Okay, so I'm going to get back on my frozen yogurt beat. Okay? There's something slightly off about frozen yogurt. Okay? Eleanor was eating it when Michael came up to her. You know, like, something slightly. Um, in Eleanor's house, there's no stairs. And so she just like, has to jump down from this ledge. And she's just like, ugh, why are there no stairs?

Like, The clowns, like, there's just always something slightly off, and it just makes you feel weird about yourself. Like, this is the good place. I can't be that annoyed about the lack of stairs. This is the good place. I can't be annoyed that there's only fro yo [00:38:00] and no other desserts. Like, this is great.

This is great. You know, just that sense of, like, every, like, everybody in White Evangelicalism, we were just eating fro yo all the time, being like, This is the best Everyone should eat fro yo and only fro yo and like let's go to a twice a week meetings about fro yo Let's keep up, you know, just the fro yo of it all I can't, you know get over it

Krispin: It reminds me of something Zach Malm said who was talking about like, “I don't understand why anyone would listen to worship music outside of a worship service.” And it is the fro-yo. For those of you that don't know about this world, it is the most basic music because it's kind of the idea that everyone can sing along to it.

Super boring, and yet people just pump it into their cars on the way to work every day. Yep.

DL: [00:39:00] like they're connecting to God.

Krispin: Right. Um. I think the other thing that feels slightly off, uh, in a humorous way is Janet. So, you know, just this piece of like, Janet is like, salty, sultry, like, because Michael keeps on sort of rebooting into different programs.

So that's another piece that feels slightly off, but in a more humorous way. Okay. Um, are you ready?

DL: Uh, are you ready

Krispin: DL's Fun Facts!

DL: facts. Okay. Um, first of all, do you know who wrote. The foreword to Tahani's Diary?

Krispin: Um, Kanye West. Just cause she mentions him at some point,

DL: Did she? Not in this episode?

Krispin: Not in this episode! Okay,

DL: Okay, uh, no. The foreword is written by two people. Co-written by Malala Yousaf and Kylie Minogue. I can tell you don't know who that is. Australian pop star, okay? Um, so I think that's funny. And [00:40:00] then, fun facts. When Eleanor brings the basket of pears to Tahani, Tahani throws it in the garbage.

Do you remember why?

Krispin: Tawny throws it it's bad luck in Chinese culture. I lived in China, and I was like, I do not remember this.

DL: I googled it! It's real!

Krispin: Well, I just was a teenager not paying attention

DL: at first I thought Tahani was being like, weirdly racist. But then I was like, no, Jianyu is a Taiwanese monk. Taiwan is, obviously, has a conflicted history with China, but still, like, that's actually, um,

Krispin: no, Jianyou is a Taiwanese mother. Obviously has a complicated history with China,

DL: kind of legit.

Because it, the word for pear sounds similar to, like, another word that has negative connotations, right? I remember you telling me certain things in Chinese culture, like, a certain number, and, you know.

Krispin: Because the number sounds similar. The number 4 is similar to the word for death in Mandarin.

DL: Yeah, lots of office buildings that don't have a fourth floor.

DL: Okay, here’s another fun fact. You know what you can do with 60 billion?

Krispin: In 2016, which, who knows what inflation has been like in seven

DL: I know. So what do you think you could do with 60 billion?

Krispin: Buy X from Elon Musk.

DL: guess so. I Googled it. There's actually an article. Oh, you're so pleased with yourself for that joke. There's an article that says, what does 60 billion buy? Okay. And it's from the New York times. It is also 13 years old. This is from 2010, but it was basically saying in 2010, 60 billion was the amount of money the U.S. government did not get because of George W. Bush tax cuts for the, for the wealthy. Right? And so The U. S. government has 60 billion less because they refuse to tax people who make over 250, 000 a year. So I thought that was [00:42:00] interesting, an interesting number. And with 60 billion, you could pay for all 3 and 4 year olds in the United States.

And they could have very small classes, okay, with like a lot of teachers. And, um, it said 60 billion could also make college free for about half of all full time college students. So I just thought, let's just put this in perspective. And, um.

Krispin: is a lot, but for some reason it's surprising that you can't do more with it.

DL: Oh, I'm sure you can. They were like, you can fund so much research. You can do all, you know, you can do so much with 60 billion dollars.

Krispin: This a cumulative list? Yeah.

DL: Yeah, it's a long article.

Krispin: see. Okay.

DL: But the 60 billion was fascinating to me because of the connotations to not taxing the rich. And I think this also goes back to Eleanor's whole thing of like, we're kind of screwed.

Like there's so many corrupt things going on. Why are you making me feel like a shitty person? Like, [00:43:00] which is, I kind of resonate with that. It's just like tax the billionaires. I do believe that is one of Mike Schur's goals, which is why I trust him.

Krispin: Yeah, totally. I mean, I, not to get too off on a tangent, but like, I have a, we have a friend who's like an environmental activist and he's like, “yeah, you can do, you know, buy your green products at Target or whatever. And that is not going to come close to what is actually needed, which is like putting controls on these businesses that are polluting the environment.” Not to be too depressing, but…

I think it, I think it is helpful as we're talking about ethics. I think that approach is helpful because we are faced with all these ethical questions. And I think there's something that feels powerless about saying like, I can't really control this, but it also takes a little bit of pressure off that, like every single decision I make is not like determining the future of humanity.

DL: not to spoiler it, [00:44:00] uh, but this, this theme comes up, you know, more and more in this show, so we'll keep coming back to it. Yeah. Uh, we have a listener call that we wanted to listen to from a local. Okay,

caller: Hi Mayfields, this is fellow Portlander Ben Emerson. Uh, I had been kicking around, re-watching The Good Place for a while, and now you have inspired me to do so, and I appreciate that. I started watching it where I had just recently decided that I couldn't call myself a Christian anymore, and it was such a wonderful way to start.

Examining my old beliefs from an outsider with some perspective, with some humor. Just absolutely adored the show, and I'm so thrilled that you all are watching it. Again, because now I can watch it with you and analyze it and look at it and find new things in it. So anyway, happy that you guys are doing this and to run along with you while you do.

DL: well thanks Ben, that was very nice. Yeah,

Krispin: I think it is such, this show is such a good way of looking at our upbringing, but [00:45:00]also, like, there's so much just that we take for granted in American culture, especially this being a, like, Christianity having so much dominance in culture.

DL: Mhm.

Krispin: Like, I think there are all these things that come up. So, I am so glad that y'all are listening along.

Thanks so much, Ben.

DL: Also, Ben and anybody else, if you leave a message and we put it on this you know podcast, I will send you a weird key chain that I make for you, Ben. You gotta email me, okay? And let me know. Do you want it to say “Fun Fact: Columbus is in the Bad Place”?

'cause I'll make you a key chain that says that if you want. So yeah, that's your incentive to calling and leave a voicemail. Okay. For us, that information will be in the show notes.

We do love hearing from you and just so glad to like, wherever you're at, like, have these conversations because I think that it was the point of the show is like bringing up these ethical questions.

We don't want to give too much away, you know, but [00:46:00] there are so many things that come up throughout this series that I think are continually relevant.

So we're so excited to keep going with it. We've hit the, this is the good place segment where we talk about what is giving us life.

DL: Yeah, you have to go first.

Krispin: Um, it is what is giving me life and frustrating everyone else in our household is that I went to see Taylor Swift last weekend and I had like one day where I was like, I can't listen to Taylor Swift because I listened to her perform for nearly four hours straight. And then after that, I was like, I'm back on it.

I'm just listening to just listening to Taylor Swift every single moment. And, um, I have a lot, a wide variety of tastes, but, um, just for me to like, find music that I really love, like that has just always been a part of my life. And it's always a reminder that like, if I'm not listening to music, I'm dead inside.

And so it's been a good, uh, time of listening to lots of Taylor Swift music.

DL: Yes, you've really enjoyed that. You're the only Swifty in our house, so you're alone in that [00:47:00] love. Um, Taylor Swift brings up a lot of ethical conundrums for me. We won't get into that here. Uh, okay, what's good for me is tomato sandwiches and allowing myself to eat a tomato sandwich every day as long as I want to.

Not feeling weird about that. Harriet the spy did it. You know, she's goals or whatever, autistic goals. And, um, that's great, but it has to be white bread. There has to be mayo. It has to be an heirloom tomato, a local tomato, sun ripened, delicious with some salt and pepper on it. And I'll eat that every day.

And it's similar to you being a Swiftie is I am the only person in our family. Who likes this. And so I am alone. Each of us are alone. Each of us have to die alone and live alone. And eat the same foods that we want to eat alone. You know?

Krispin: That is existential.

DL: I'm like, we can make good tomatoes sandwiches

And somebody came up with the idea for this [00:48:00] sandwich. And it doesn't sound good, but... It slaps.

Krispin: As our 12 year old would say

DL: I know, I'm just going to try and put in some of this every episode. They'll be 13 by the time this episode comes out, so that's why.

Krispin: That's true.

DL: Okay.

Krispin: We did want to mention we've been recording some Patreon only episodes. I'm putting those out.

DL: And they're super good. Yes. I think they're so freaking good, and we also get to talk more behind the paywall about this exciting project we're working on, and so if you want to hear about that, we might put in some clips here and there coming of one of the series we're doing once a month, Books from the Bad Place, we talked about James Dobson's, um, Dare to Discipline, so if you want to hear us talk about a really bad book that impacted a lot of us, you can join our Patreon for 4 a month. and I'm screaming about Michael over there.

Krispin: Yes, you are. The other episode that is that we talk about a really bad book that impacted a lot of us,

DL: So if you wanna hear about that, you can come over again four bucks a month and you get these two extra podcast episodes every month. Mm-hmm. plus our awesome listener community in Facebook, which is full of a lot of memes these days, which I am enjoying immensely.

Krispin: there’s the listener community on Facebook, which is full of memes these days, which I am enjoying.

DL: Religious trauma, Good Place Memes We’re all about it over there. Hope you all join us, um, and we will be back in two weeks talking about episode four, and we are going to find out more

Krispin: about why Jianyu has been pretending to be a Buddhist monk. I'm very excited.

DL: Talk to you then!