Questions & Fears

Is flying the most selfish super power? And can people change? This episode, DL and Krispin talk about S1E2, “Flying” of the Good Place and the philosophical questions that come with it!

DL mentions Half a Soul by Olivia Atwater.

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TRANSCRIPT

Krispin: [00:00:00] Welcome to This is the Bad Place, a podcast about the NBC TV show, The Good Place, and the journey of two ex evangelicals leaving white evangelicalism.

DL: Welcome to episode two of This is the Bad Place. We're very excited today to talk about season one, episode two called Flying. Um, I'm happy to be here. Krispin, I feel like we should reintroduce ourselves just in case there's new people here. I'll go first. I'm D. L. Mayfield. I'm a writer and ethical gadabout.

I don't know. Is that a thing? I'm a late diagnosed autistic non binary person who tried very, very, very, very hard to make Christianity good because that's what I was born into and indoctrinated into as a child in the [00:01:00] 1980s, rural America. What about you? Oh, and I'm also married to you. I'm Christian

Krispin: I'm Krispin Mayfield. I'm a therapist, specifically a couples therapist that focuses on attachment science.

Krispin: And I was a missionary kid, so I grew up overseas in a ministry setting, uh, in white evangelicalism, um, and, uh, unsurprisingly have also spent a lot of my life, um, trying to figure out how to make Christianity good.

Um, that was sort of our life together for a while, and now we're talking about how it all fell apart.

DL: Yeah, so we were raised in a context where we were basically told we were born into the good place here evangelicalism. And that if we prayed a prayer when we were six years old and committed our lives of undying service to God, then we would also get into the other good place, which is heaven, when we died.

Um, and be surrounded only by people just like us. So that was our life. And both of us have walked away from that religious ideology. And we want to talk about it through the context of rewatching The Good Place. So, there we go.

Krispin: So as DL mentioned, we're going to talk about episode two, which is called the flying. And one of the parts of this episode is that the people get to fly because it's heaven. And, uh, Michael, the angel, who's the architect of the neighborhood says everybody has always wanted to fly. Before we go into the episode at all, I need to know, is this something that you have always wanted to do?

DL: No

Krispin: Me neither.

DL: I think, I think one of the themes of this show is going to be like we're going to always put things back to drama and I'm going to say like whatever superpower you dreamed about having as a kid kind of speaks to your inner world, um, experience.

So the, the superpower I most wanted when I was a kid, I think was to [00:03:00] be invisible, which is really sad.

Krispin: Mmm, that is sad. Yeah.

DL: what about you?

Krispin: Uh, I wanted to be really fast because I was always really slow. I was always slow on bike rides. I was slow on jogging around in middle school. Like, I was... I wanted to be really fast. Because I was always really slow.

Krispin: yeah. It's funny because we were watching, um, Good Mythical Morning recently, some YouTubers, and they were saying that flying is the most selfish superpower to want to have.

DL: That's what Link Neil was saying

Krispin: Uh huh, yeah. Right.

DL: And what were his reasons again?

Krispin: Uh, because it doesn't really help anyone except you. And, uh, because it's so fun, everybody wants to fly.

Which I go back to, like, I think we're two sensitive people. For me, I'm like, I don't want to fly. That sounds too scary. That sounds too overwhelming. I generally have hated roller coasters. It sounds like a [00:04:00] worse version of a roller coaster to me.

DL: Yeah. Okay, well that's funny because I do think the episode has some interesting things to say about selfishness and using this concept of flying to get at that. Um, I will say, I feel like if we are talking about actual superpowers, like what would I most want to do, like say, in a place like The Good Place, I would want teleportation. know, I don't think as a kid I knew that was an option on the list of superpowers, but if you could just be transported anywhere in the world instantaneously, wouldn't that be great? Yeah.

Krispin: it's funny. That makes sense. Uh, when you first said it, I was like, that's just you being pragmatic, like, then you just don't have to drive. You don't have to, you know,

DL: Yeah, I hate driving. Oh, I hate driving. I hate travel, but I like being in other places, so!

Krispin: the most convenient of the superpowers, I think.

DL: Teleportation? Okay, but it's not the most selfish, evidently. So, should I just read the synopsis of the episode? Hopefully people are watching along. You can [00:05:00] watch us on Netflix, and... Probably other places. Um, anyways, here's the synopsis of episode two called Flying. So last episode, there was major chaos going on in the neighborhood, presumably because Eleanor is not supposed to be in the good place.

Michael is on the verge of a breakdown because his neighborhood is not working. Chidi goes to work studying moral philosophers like Aristotle and Kant to ask himself if he should help Eleanor learn to be good so she can stay in the good place. Tahani organizes a cleanup crew and Chidi signs Eleanor up to join the crew to show that she's a good person. But then she takes shortcuts in the cleanup which causes trash to fall from the sky. We see several flashbacks of Eleanor's life and her being selfish. At the end of the episode, she ends up cleaning up the trash because she feels bad. And it ends on a cliffhanger. Krispin, do you remember what the cliffhanger was?

Krispin: yes. I can't remember the exact words, but something gets shoved under a door,

DL: Yeah, that says, like, I know you're not supposed to be here. It's funny, neither of us [00:06:00]are, like, perfect at taking notes, but basically, yeah, the cliffhanger is somebody else besides Chidi and Eleanor know that she's not supposed to be in the good place.

She's actually a bad person in the good place. So that's, you know, that's this episode in a nutshell.

Krispin: Yeah, so now we're going to go to our watch rewatch segment because we watched it seven years ago and now we're rewatching it. What do you remember watching it the first time?

DL: Yeah, so in 2016, when this aired, I remember just sort of being along for the ride and I do think season one of The Good Place just has a ton of plot in it, right?

So this is the episode where we're really introduced to Chidi being a professor of moral philosophy and some more information on Eleanor's bad person. And I think I was just mostly vibing with Chidi and his stress around, like, “I'm supposed to be in the [00:07:00] good place and now” I'm, like, in anguish deciding, like, is it okay to wrong to help this person stay here when they're not supposed to be here. I guess I was just mostly tracking with Chidi's sort of mental anguish at like what is the moral thing to do in that situation. What about you? What do you remember?

Krispin: I remember, um, Really feeling like I really appreciated Eleanor's character because she's in The Good Place, like, everybody there is perfect, theoretically. Um, and she just sort of says what's on her mind, right? And she is selfish, but it's this element of, like, realness and, like, you don't have to perform.

So I remember being really struck by that. It's kind of interesting because both the first and second episode aired on the first night. So you watch them back to back, but I remember this sense of like, okay, this is heaven And it's kind of like similar to church in a way this idea of like you're in this place [00:08:00] where everybody's supposed to be perfect Everyone's supposed to like follow the rules.Everyone's supposed to not be selfish and Eleanor is this person that is like Almost feel sort of comfortable in her own skin in a sort of way.

Krispin: I'm sure I'm embellishing the memory. But I do remember that vibe of like, “She's like the only real person here.” I mean Chidi is, but like Chidi is so stuck on like “what's the right thing to do?”. I would rather be like Eleanor than Chidi. How about now?

DL: I’m a little more interested in like, the moral philosophers that Chidi mentions, like Aristotle and Kant, and just this idea of can people [00:09:00] change, right? I think in 2016, when this episode aired, Donald Trump had not yet been elected, and I was definitely one of those people who thought, it's probably not going to happen.

And since 2016, I think my view of humanity has become more and more pessimistic, and I'm not okay with that. And, but so, I think rewatching this episode, the stuff about Aristotle saying like, yes, virtues can be taught, people can change. I'm like, do I even believe that anymore? It's clear to me that Mike Schur thought that.

Krispin: Yeah, I think for me, uh, I think part of what was I really identified with Eleanor the first time around of like, I'm, there's something really wrong with me. I'm not a good person. I'm not perfect. [00:10:00] Um, this time around, I actually felt annoyed at her in the flashbacks. Basically like there's this series of flashbacks where Eleanor is supposed to be a designated driver and like cheats the system so that she never has to be a designated driver. So it really is this feeling of like this is the person that's only thinking about themselves and they're really obnoxious about it.

DL: Yeah, it's interesting, like, in the context of the show, it's like she's having these flashbacks, right? To her being a bad co worker, bad drinking friend, right?

Krispin: Yeah, uh huh. Yeah. And it seems like she feels sad about it. She's starting to feel some remorse, which might be why she ends up cleaning up the trash because she's kind of reflecting on like, how did I live my life? Right? Yeah, we see a little bit of that. So it's kind of interesting because I feel annoyed. And even her feeling sad about it, like I still feel annoyed. So that was what came up for me.

DL: [00:11:00] Yeah, we see a little bit of interesting, because I feel annoyed, and even her feeling sad about it, like, I still feel annoyed. So, that's what came up for me.

Krispin: Mm hmm.

DL: Yeah she’ll say things like, “I just really wanted to fly,” you know, which is not a defense at all. And then the flashbacks, you're like, yeah, this is a person that nobody would want to hang out with. And eventually her coworkers, you know, are like, if you do this one more time to us, like you're out of Thursday drinking night. Which side note as an autistic person who grew up solely in the evangelical church, I was like, none of this makes any sense to me. Cause Eleanor works at a terrible place that scams seniors out of their money to get fake pills. They go drinking on Thursday nights and get so drunk that one of them [00:12:00] needs to not drink so they can drive the other people.

I'm like, none of this makes any sense. Do people really do this?

Krispin: I guess so, that has not been our experience.

DL: I was like, Okay, we're just not in the same circles as Eleanor. Because I was like, people who work at that kind of a crappy job, I don't think they're that worried about designated drivers. But who knows? Who knows.

Krispin: What were your favorite things about this episode?

DL: Well there’s a big ethical thing I want to talk about. I don't know if that's a favorite thing. What's your favorite thing?

Krispin: Jianyu was my favorite.

DL: He's, uh, Tahani's soulmate, Right?

Krispin: Yeah, he's just sort of there throughout the episode and Tahani keeps on trying to get him to talk. She's like, “let's say our favorite thing on the count of three” and then he doesn't say anything. So even though he's not like a big part of the plot, he's one of my favorite parts because he's  just this like silent monk that's sort of always there around and like, it's, it's just really funny to think of like, he is in heaven in the afterlife and is still like, “yeah, I would prefer to not talk” is kind of the sense that we get

DL:  when I see Tahani and Jianyu, it’s just like, this is so fascinating. I can't look away.

Krispin: Yeah, there's definitely like this element of like kind of visual comedy that is really great with Jianyu. I also really liked that Chidi has a blackboard as he's trying to figure out like, should I help Eleanor or not? It looks like it's a pros and cons list. But if you pause the episode and look at the background, it [00:14:00] actually says It's questions on one side and fears on the other, which is sort of a good summary of Chidi's character.

Like, I only have questions or fears. Like there's no prose, there's no like, positive thing. One of the fears, um, under the list of fears it says, can morality even be taught? Which I just like that that's like one of his fears, it's like what if it can't be taught?

DL: taught?

Krispin: Um, I also liked that, uh, Tahani says that she's the goddaughter of Princess Diana, but she says like, I, my godmother Diana, like, no need to know who she's the princess of.

DL: Yeah, like that. This is the beginning of Hanni with all of her name dropping.

Krispin: I mean, she also mentions Johnny Depp's private bird sanctuary that she's visited, right?

DL: I know. Are you ready for my fun fact? Yes. Johnny Depp is in the bad place.

Krispin: I thought this was going to be from your research.

DL: I thought this was I just wanted to say [00:15:00] that. Um, I love Tahani as a character and yeah, we're slowly starting to see these people sort of fleshed out more. And Tahani is just a really fascinating person. So yeah, I loved that about this episode, getting a bit more of her character.

Krispin: Yeah. So we're at the This is the Bad Place segment. Is this where you want to bring up your ethical concern? Because this is the segment for ethical questions.

DL: So my thesis is that every episode of The Good Place centers around a sort of existential or moral question that is putting onto the universe, you know? What would you say is, do you think is the theme of this episode?

Krispin: Uh, I was...

DL: uh,

Krispin: I was caught between two questions. One is: can you be good if you're doing it to save yourself from the bad place, right? Like, is that possible? Like, can you actually be good, like, can you make yourself be good if you [00:16:00] have ulterior motives? Uh, which is connected to the other question, which is like, can you teach someone to be a moral person? Or is it just inherently who they are?

DL: Yeah, so I think it's the second one. That's what I think is the thesis of this episode. But... I think it's interesting you point out the overarching conceit, at least of season one. Yeah, is this reality of Chidi and Eleanor are two really different approaches to people who have kind of been taught that there are good people and bad people in the world.

If you do certain things, and if you agonize about being a good person and try really hard to be a good person, like Then that's kind of how you gain, game the system or someone like Eleanor who's like it's unwinnable. I was dealt a bad hand of cards, so I'm just going to go through life doing exactly what I need to do to survive and so I think those are sort of the [00:17:00] two main points and then I think Tahani and Janja will see how they also deal with the point system of good and bad people and the good adds up and the bad adds up.

So I think that's the overarching theme of the show, of at least season one, and how that can corrupt our sense of morality, our sense of self, and our sense of the common good. Which, Chidi does mention the common good. And you told me, you were like, “I think this is where you got the phrase, the common goods from watching the good place” and I was like, “Krispin Mayfield! That was from Catholic social teaching teaching!” but I am very drawn to that concept and it's something I've been obsessed with, as you well know, for many, many years. So, um, yeah, but do we want to get into the, the existential question of, can you teach someone morality?

Krispin: When we were watching it, you turned to me and you said, there's so much to talk about here!

DL: So tell me, okay --  I feel like this is gonna be niche, but I'm not sure it is. So in this episode, they set up the idea that Aristotle believed that you can teach someone. Morality in that people can learn to be more virtuous, right? And they can learn to be self aware and say, I have too much of this kind of personality. I can, so I can kind of try and compensate by doing other things. Right. I think for me. And I don't know if this is related to being autistic because I actually have talked to other autistic people. One of the biggest existential questions I currently have is I so badly want to believe that people can change and people can become better citizens, better people, um, but there's this thing called Narcissism, that just stops me in my tracks and that's because I have a personal experience of being in close relationships with people who are at least somewhere on the narcissist spectrum.

And if, and you know, the, the preliminary research I've done, and again, this is coming out of like my personal life and a need to figure out these questions, um, you know, It's very divided out there, Krispin, if you Google, like, can narcissists change? Um, and to me, that throws a wrench in this whole idea of teaching morality and teaching virtue ethics.

If, if there's a minority of the population who simply can't learn how to not be selfish, to me that says then we have to sort of... be able to adapt to that reality, and it's actually quite harmful to be like, “no, no, no, of course they can change if we just keep trying harder, if we just keep trying harder.”

Because that's, that's the reality of a lot of people who've been in a relationship with narcissists. It's the hope that kills you. Um, and eventually at some point you have to walk away from expecting someone to change. So anyways, that's a lot. Do you have thoughts as a therapist, someone in the mental health

Krispin: I mean, that is a huge question that we have as a field. A lot of times we do go to that piece of like, yeah, this is about trauma. Like this is, you know, if this person could heal their shame. On the flip side, there are lots of people that have very similar experiences of trauma and don't, uh, harm the other people in their lives.

Right? So like, that's one of the questions that comes up. You can look at a person's story and say like, it makes sense that they've become really selfish because no one was there for them. They learned like, I just have to rely on myself. And yet, there are lots of people who have grown up having to only rely on themselves and have also been able to like, be considerate of other people's experiences.

So I think it's a really hard question. It does seem to be the question that is being asked in this episode. I was really surprised to hear Chidi say that a lot of philosophers think people can't change. Like, I, I just assume that in general, we as humanity assume that people can.

DL: Although, again, that might be, like, the hope that kills you part.That's why this, it's a foundational text, I think, for this show. I, I think growing up in white evangelicalism, what were you taught about this reality that people can change?

Krispin: Well, I that it's not within yourself, but God changes

DL: that Yeah, people don't really have the power to change is what I was told. Um, you know, God changes us, makes us, you know, predestines us to either be able to accept the truth or not.

And then once you become a Christian, [00:22:00] like, you can try to be more godly. But that initial heart change that led you to become a believer in Jesus Christ, yeah, it doesn't come from you because you're little worm, you know, not you're a little worm deserving of the bad place. So God and his infinite wisdom grants you the ability to become a Christian and I think that has really damaging effects and my personal thesis is that a lot of people you know, again, this could come from trauma, this could come from all sorts of things, but people who develop narcissistic tendencies are really drawn to authoritarian and high control religions like white evangelicalism because a hallmark of narcissism, right, is the person.  Like, they don't have the ability to say, like, “what I believe is true is not true for everyone else.”

Right? Narcissists don't do that. And that can show up in so many ways. So like, this example in like, Psychology Today, right, is a narcissist will be like, “I like chocolate ice cream more than strawberry ice cream.” And most people would be like, yeah, that's just my personal preference. And a narcissist, they create this whole world where it's like. “No, chocolate is so much inherently better, and you must believe that. And if you don't, like, there's something really wrong with you, and you must be stupid.” And narcissists, like, the whole thing is you have to join in their world that they've built and that they believe and that they see. And they have no ability, right, to understand, first of all, why people might not have the same beliefs as them, and they just have no curiosity about that.

I think what's interesting -- and what kind of troubles me a tiny bit about this show and this episode is that Eleanor is portrayed as having a lot of narcissistic traits and yet You know, we're supposed to empathize with her, you know, she's humanized and the whole point is she's like, [00:24:00] no, I can change.

I can change. I can change. And I feel a lot of tension with that. And my personal belief is that, just for the sake of my own mental health, I have to believe people can change. Like, the physical side of it, the biology of it, if people can calm their nervous systems, I think we can start to unpack shame and trauma that leads to these extreme, you know, there's a sort of presentations of narcissism. At the same time, there's a reason why people who do therapeutic work with victims of narcissistic abuse, the number one thing they have to say to people is people narcissists don't change. Narcissists don't change. And and Christian, I I want your perspective because I have my own thoughts. Why do you think therapists who [00:25:00] work with people who've been victimized by narcissists, like, that's the number one thing they have to say over and over again, especially in the beginning.

Krispin: Yeah, well, it's interesting because I'm listening to a training right now on narcissistic abuse with people, you know, experts that have been working with victims of narcissistic abuse. Their context is women that are in relationships with men that are narcissistic. And I think I bring that up because that's such a good example of like that, like in society we have yeah.

I think this idea and she says, even as therapists, we perpetuate this idea of like, this is a traumatized person. And if they could just heal, then they would treat you differently. And I think there are two different tracks in my mind. One track is yes, this person. can change, and they could change, that is possible.

When I'm talking to someone who's in a relationship with them, I want to say there's no guarantee or signs that this person is going to change. Just because they can doesn't mean that they will. And you [00:26:00] have to make a decision based on the information that you have up until this point. Is this relationship going to work or

DL: Okay, you're not really answering my question, and I think that's because you are a therapist, but I'm not wrong when I say that most therapists will tell the person, like, just blanket statements, Narcissists can't change, and I feel like they have to say that because I think at the heart of the human condition is we want to believe people can and we will keep extending grace and love and empathy and all these things that the narcissist is not able to do, like we will continue to extend that and continue to get victimized over and over again.

And so for people who've been, you know, the victims of narcissistic abuse, it's so important to recognize that people most likely will not change. that's just like a framework many of us have to start with. [00:27:00] So both of us come from situations where we had people in our lives and are growing up years,

Krispin: I will say that my, uh, yeah, my, my dad has a lot of narcissistic traits

DL: Yeah, and so it's interesting to think about at some point you had to be like, I don't think this is going to change and now I have to set some boundaries for myself, right?

Krispin: yeah.

DL: And the sad thing is when you're a kid you never want to think that about your own parent and you will do a million billion things to convince yourself otherwise.

And that's just true of most people in relationship with narcissists. They so badly want to see good, want to see change, want to see healing. And eventually you have to say like, this is... Most likely not going to happen.

Krispin: I think of this as our attachment system being hijacked. So when it comes to, like, relationships and bonding and attachment, we have this drive to [00:28:00] ignore the things that are annoying or that are bad or that sort of thing, right, so that we can continue the relationship, which is generally a good thing, like the things that whether our partners or our kids do that, like, you know, just really bother us, but then this kind of ability to let those things go, for the sake of the relationship is a really positive thing, except when you're in this place where this person is actually really harmful. They're really toxic, they're really abusive, and our attachment system is so primed to ignore those things. And so that's, to answer your question, as therapists, that's why it's so important to say, like, Hey, your attachment system, your desire for this relationship is going to continually say, like, “No, it's fine, it's fine, and it's not fine.”  As a therapist, I want you to pay attention to your experience, right? Cause that's when you're in a relationship with a narcissist, it's all about [00:29:00] their experience. So….

DL: Yeah. Okay. So maybe we're getting off the rails here. Um, but that is the, I think that's the tension of this episode. That's what Chidi's struggling with. And the show is, is, you know, I don't think this is too much of a spoiler, but Eleanor's just like, no, I can change.

I can change. I can change. So that's going to be like the arc of this season. And I do believe it. And I am tracking with it, but I'm just going to say, after spending most of my adult life, Trying to communicate with people who have a lot of narcissistic traits, I'm just a little bit more like, uh,

Krispin: Well, I was thinking about, like, this idea of common good, and that really is the opposite of, like, a narcissistic power structure. Right? And so, when you were talking about, you know, the narcissist is like, chocolate is the best. Everyone needs to accept that. Right? That's, like, makes me think about, like, Trump and things like heteronormativity, right? Or like [00:30:00] whatever it is where it's like, this is the way it is for me, or this is the way it is for my religion, right?

DL: Do you think things like evangelicalism promotes narcissism? Because that is exactly how they go through life. This is the only way to be a person. This is the only truth. I believe it because I'm one of the best people in the world and God predestined me to believe it. And if you don't agree with me, you're an idiot. That is, My life to a T. I didn't believe that, but everyone around me did.

Krispin: Well, I would say a lot of narcissistic leaders and like theologians, uh, have that I'm not, and then I think there are a lot of people that are like brought in along that because they want to follow God, right?

DL: Or they wanna get into heaven. Yeah. And they wanna be a good person. These things that draw people like Chidi. So, yeah. I, I feel like we're gonna keep talking about this. We gotta get, we gotta keep moving on.

Krispin: Alright, we're at our next segment, which is you might have religious trauma if, which I did not know just to go back to last episode [00:31:00] that this was a Jeff Foxworthy thing. I thought this just existed in my brain. I just want to throw that out there. Uh, for me, it was, uh, you know, thinking about this episode, you might have religious trauma if you worried that any little thing you did. It meant that you weren't going to get into the good place or you were wholly bad. So it wasn't even like this point system. It was like any little mistake that you made meant that there was something really broken about you. How about you?

DL: Okay, you might have religious trauma if you, like Tahani, always felt like you were missing out on what other people were experiencing. I am thinking about when Jianyu, you know, touches Michael and without saying a word, Michael suddenly is full of tears, right after being very worried about, you know, his project falling apart and Tahani's just sort of sitting there being like, how can I experience this inner peace? You know, uh, that just reminded me of growing up in church and everybody always [00:32:00] talking about feeling the love of God or speaking in tongues or being slain in the spirit and poor little autistic me just felt that thing.

And you know, I learned to internalize there's something wrong with me and you can kind of See that happening with Tahani, her having to have these appearances of like, I love my soulmate who doesn't talk, and I totally feel at peace and I love being silent and, you know, it's just, I just kind resonated with her.

Krispin: Alright, now it's time for DL's Fun Facts.

DL: Okay, you had your own fun facts that you wanted to say, but I'm gonna do mine first, okay? So, we already talked about Tahani name dropping people. She name drops three people this episode. Princess Diana, Johnny Depp, and do you remember the last one?

Krispin: Maggie Smith. Oh.

DL: Cindy Crawford, which is so weird. Okay. But here's a fun fact, is that before [00:33:00] acting in The Good Place, Jamila Jamil, who plays Tahani, had never acted before. And like, this was her first ever audition, is when she auditioned for The Good Place. And they were in the casting and she was basically like, she's like a giantess and so beautiful and so overwhelming.

And just kind of scared everybody with her beauty and intensity and all that. And um, she really does know everybody. Like she knows Beyonce, Jay Z, like in real life

Krispin: Oh! Okay,

DL: And she was a media presenter in England. So anyways, I just thought that was really funny. Um, you already mentioned that, you know, during Chidi's ethics lessons, right?

He has this chalkboard and I thought it was very fascinating. All the things on there. I took a picture and we, and we'll post that on our Instagram. I don't know if you noticed it, but under some of the questions, right? You already mentioned one of them. Can you teach someone [00:34:00] to be more moral? Something like that.

One of the questions, um. Um, is “there's a possibility that this is a test for me or her or others,” It is just interesting. And then, for my last fun fact, do you want to hear a list of all the books that she either mentions or that are on his desk that Eleanor picks up and reads in this episode, okay?

First we have The Metaphysics of Morals by Immanuel Kant. Then we have The Nicomachean Ethicsby Aristotle, I probably did not pronounce that right. We have On the Way to Language by Martin Heidegger, Heidegger? The Concept of Time by Martin Heidegger and The Methods of Ethics by Henry Sidgwick. Now for this Fun Facts segment, I was going to like read a Cliff Notes version of each of these books and talk to you about that.

But guess what? I don't want to do that. [00:35:00] I started doing it. They're very boring to me. I love thinking about, like, real time ethics. Like, the ethical question of, can narcissists change? Like, I spend so much of my time thinking about that. I do not spend a lot of time thinking about language as the means of being, or whatever Heidegger is obsessed with, you know what I mean?

Krispin: I’m so glad, because I thought we were going to have a Chidi and Eleanor moment where you talked about nerdy things and I was like, I

DL: no, I'm leaning into my Eleanor and I'm just like, “nerds!”

Krispin: Okay, listener questions! So just a reminder. You can always email us a voice memo or call us at the number that's in the show notes. We love to hear from you all and today we have a listener question from Susanna.[00:36:00]

Susanna [caller]: I was so struck by Eleanor's line, “I'm not supposed to be here” And as an Evangelical my first thought was, “oh honey. None of us are.” And that just makes me think what does it do to our psyches, not just as evangelicals, but in our broader cultural conception of Heaven and Hell? If so many of us believe that we don't belong in a good place that we're not supposed to be there. Where does that come from? And how do we process that?

DL: Oh my gosh, well this is such a big question. First of all, thanks Susanna.

Krispin: Yes, I mean, one of the things that came up as I was hearing this was like, I was always told growing up in this setting that everyone else thinks that they're going to heaven, and they think they deserve to be there. And you need to tell them that they do not deserve to be there [00:37:00].  I don't know if that's true or not, like, widely.

I will say as a therapist, my, my experience of the general population is not that, um, Everyone is walking around being like I, I deserve good things. You know, I'm a good person. I'm loved and I belong. But yeah, I wonder about this idea like where did it come from this idea that we're bad? I think a lot of it is just like the Christian history of Western civilization is my guess like Thinking about, uh, like Jonathan Edwards talking about how we're like spiders held over the fire. Like that is part of our American culture.

DL: From, from his sermon, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. Yeah, I think for me, just, you know, now that I know that I was autistic, right?

And, and sometimes autistic people, right, have this tendency towards being literal minded. I, of course, with my dad being a pastor, my mom being obsessed with religion and, [00:38:00] um, all of that. There, there was, I got all of the. doctrines of original sin. But I was mostly fixated on them saying like, if you give your life to Jesus, like, you're in. That's it. It's grace. It's grace. It's grace. Like, that's all you do. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you'll be saved. So I, so from like, very early on, I was like, well, I'm in. Like, I'm in. I said this. I was baptized. When I was six, like, made my parents happy, dedicated my life. And I, I always knew I was going to serve God with everything since Jesus had paid the full price.

But I didn't obsess over this idea that I was bad at my core because I was like, but I did what they said. So I am forgiven and I definitely deserve to be in heaven. But the older I got, the more I was transfixed with this idea of being a missionary because I didn't think it was right that just. A select minority of people get to go to the good place.

I was just like, well, everybody needs to go. And so I will spend the rest [00:39:00] of my life trying to convince people to do that. And that's how I dealt with that ethical thing. I think though, taking a step back, and this is something I'm working on in therapy. I've, I've put myself in really, really, really hard situations for many, many years now.

And I'm not going to go into the particulars of any of that, but my therapist has pointed out like. You might be recreating some childhood stuff by surrounding yourself with people who do not like you, are not kind to you, are abusive towards you, where you don't experience joy, you don't experience pleasure, you can't be your real, authentic self.

Um, and so in many ways I've cre I've put myself in situations that created me the kind of anxiety that Chidi lives with. You know, the anguish, the stomach aches, the headaches, the pain, like, I... put myself in a lot of bad place situations, right? Because that's what I felt like I deserved at my core.

And so now as I'm moving [00:40:00] towards more health, when people do treat me well, when I am experiencing joy and all this, I'm like, “oh, this is a strange feeling.” And that's pretty sad. So I guess there's two ways of answering that question. I think trauma predispositions you to believe you are rotten at your core, and that can either show up in yes, I don't deserve to go to heaven, or it can show up more practically in I don't deserve to be treated well by the people around me.

Krispin: Yeah, definitely. I resonate with that so much. I was always that person that was like, had a lot of shame and feeling like, yeah, I'm going to be allowed into heaven, but I'm not really wanted there. You know, I definitely, I mentioned this in the last episode. I feel a lot like Eleanor, uh, like I'm going to show up, but I'm going to be the, the broken one.

Um, I'm going to be the one that annoys everyone, et cetera.

[instrumental interlude]

DL: We're not diagnosing the character of Chidi [00:41:00] with autism, um, but he obviously has an anxiety disorder. I would say he seems to have ethical OCD. I also have ethical OCD and moral scrupulosity. And even though there needs to be so much more research about this, you know, autistic people, like, 80% of us have an anxiety disorder and almost 20% of us are diagnosed with OCD.

So there's these huge overlaps there. Um, and so yeah, I've spent much of my life just my mind being tangled up in these questions of how to live a good life. Do you have an example of a moral rule that I've been inflexible about?

Krispin: Are you talking about when our kids don't finish drinking their water and you have to go pour it out on the garden? Or do you mean like that we needed to send our kids to the, uh, one of the worst schools in the state because all kids deserve good education? Are those good examples? I'm worried about, like, I don't want to put you on blast. For you, what, like, what do you think, what has caused the most distress for you internally?

DL: Oh, I mean, it just depends on the day. I think I've shared the water cup one before because it's just a funny one, right? But yes, like, I'm obsessed with water. Usage and shortages and, and to that point, I agree with Mike Schur that I hate Arizona because it's one of the least sustainable places to live due to how they use water and they are coming up on a crisis. So let's just stick with that for now.

Krispin: I do think that this, this idea of the internal anguish, right? This, this episode is focused on Eleanor and can Eleanor be a good person? Can she change? Can she be ethical? [00:43:00] But I think the shadow side, the, the, the other part of this is like, how's it working out for Chidi to be a good person? Can she be more ethical? But I think the shadow side, the this is like, how's it working for Chidi? It’s hard. So yeah, maybe we're all screwed.

DL: that’s’ been my personal exprience

Krispin: I was going to say, the way you say that, it sounds like it's coming from personal experience. Let's wrap up…

DL: Oh, wait, I have one more, I have one more thing to say. I just want to, I just want to say like. This whole show is so about the mind, not the body. And it's about these ethical questions we think of in our minds. One thing that really stood out to me is in episode 2, it is established you cannot die in the good place.

Right? Those two guys, the, um,

Krispin: Oh, right. Yeah.

DL: the [00:44:00] dumpster falls on them. And then they just pop up and they're like, oh yeah, you can't die here. And I was like... Ah, so we're setting up the rules that this really is not an embodied concept at all. And this is just moral philosophy in the mind, how to be good, which again, I'm moving in my own life, moving towards health for me involves being less of a genie and being more in my body.

And so I just thought that was interesting to point out. You can't die in this. And so therefore the stakes are just about what we think about if people can change, if we can think our way to being a good person or not.

Krispin: I mean, yeah, there is really this like feeling like this is all a facade in the sense that Michael is in a skin suit. That's not what Michael, Michael doesn't actually look like Ted Danson, which is why he talks about like leaking instead of sweating. Sorry, I'll cut that part. Um, you know, Yeah, Michael's like, why am I leaking?

And it's, and Janet's like, “oh, you're sweating” and it's a reminder to us [00:45:00] that like we see Michael as a person, but he's not actually a person, right? And even the whole like neighborhood being constructed is, you know, you kind of have this sense of like this exists nowhere, right? The good place doesn't actually exist in physical reality.

It's where these souls go to be. So I think that's a really good point. I want to wrap this up, uh, with, uh, this is a good place. So what's something that's giving us hope in humanity these that's giving us hope in humanity?

Krispin: It is, at the time of recording, it's Pride Month, and that has been really encouraging to see, um, the various people in my life, um, on, on various levels, family members, um, clients, just, feeling like, Oh, there's space for me to think about the queer ways that I show up in the world.

I mean, I'll just acknowledge like we live in Portland. We live in a place where that's celebrated. [00:46:00] And so even though, um, there are terrible things going on throughout the U. S. or in anti-trans bills, I feel a little bit of hope of like, there are at least some enclaves where we're able to celebrate this. So that's been really exciting for me.

DL: Basically, what's giving me hope is romance novels. I'm in a phase where I'm really loving them. I specifically love romance novels that have something to do a little bit with the Regency period in Jane Austen, but are different. So I want to shout out a book I read that I just adored.

It's called Half a Soul by Olivia Atwater. And basically it's described as being Pride and Prejudice meets Howl's Moving Castle. And I loved it! And I like romance because good things happen to people. Especially women. And that is something I need to read more of. So, [00:47:00] there we go!

Krispin: Yeah, well I'm so glad to end on that note. Again, please send us your questions, comments. We'd love to hear from you. We're going to continue including that in the episodes.

DL: please send us your related to the episodes, please send those in. Once a month, we're going to be doing a whole spoilersode. I have so many things to talk about that we couldn't talk about here. Um, so send us your questions and comments about things that maybe are a little spoilery.

Krispin: Yeah, right. Yeah, those come up in these episodes sometimes and I'm like, all right, cut that, like put it to the side. We'll use it later. Uh, yeah, there's a lot to talk about, um, on the spoiler side of things. And just a reminder, you can join our Patreon to get access to those and also a Facebook group to be talking about those things.

So always want to mention that. We will be back with episode three in a couple of weeks.

DL: Take it sleazy!