I Got Something for You, Man

TW: suicide, sexual abuse

Krispin and DL talk about "So Help Me God," developmental psychology and about the organization that partnered to produce the books "Jesus Freaks."

Check out the sordid history of Voice of the Martyrs on wikipedia.

Also on wikipedia, Erik Erikson's psycho-social stages.

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Transcript

So Help Me God

DL: Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Prophetic Imagination Station. I'm DL Mayfield I'm sitting here with my husband…

Krispin: Krispin

DL: you were supposed to say your name,

Krispin: I thought maybe you'd forgotten.

DL: No, everybody you know, again, I'm not just Krispin’s neighbor, his super chatty neighbor. I married Krispin, and we do a podcast where we dissect evangelical pop culture from the eighties and nineties, and we are in the midst of our Jesus Freaks season where we talk about DC talk.

Krispin: You made it plural. Jesus Freaks.

Which I think is because you've been reading the book, which we're gonna talk about a little bit today, the books that went along with the album. And we did, we really wanted to talk a little bit more about the song.

So Help Me God is the first track on the album, because there's just a lot, lot, lot to unpack here. And this is just a really important album and to just kind of place our context.

DL: Yeah. What right do we have to talk about DC talks? Jesus Freak album, Krispin.

Krispin: That is a great question. Well, let me tell you, Danielle contributed to a, this was Danielle's first published work.

Can you hold it up to me so I can read it to our audience? It is Stories for the Extreme Teens Heart

DL: Extreme Teens Heart.

Krispin: Is this like a riff off of Chicken Soup for the Soul? Yeah. Okay.

DL: Yeah. Put up by Multnomah Publishing in the year 2000.

Krispin: Okay. Yeah. So you were how old then?

DL:  according to the back of the book I was 16.

Krispin: Uhhuh

DL: Um, yeah. So, uh, for context, I I, so I'm the perfect, like, recipient of the Jesus Freak Propaganda tour, which is the music and the books and all that. You know, the Billy Graham Con, you know, whatever. Because I was raised in White Evangelicalism, I was told it was the only true way to be a person in, you know, I would go to hell if I didn't believe it, and then I had to make sure others believed it to her.

They would go to hell, all this stuff. So I was like primed and ready for Jesus Freaks, and it totally worked on me. I was like, yes, I'm gonna be a Jesus Freak my whole life. You know? I was like 12 when the album came out, the next few years. You know, I really, that was my entire identity was being like a Jesus Freak,

Krispin: An extreme teen.

DL: Well, I was very extreme in the Christian sense and not in any other sense Oh. But like right around when I was, I think I was 14, my family moved to Central Oregon to Sisters Oregon, and my mom got a job at Multnomah Publishing, which is now WaterBrook, but they put out tons of Christian books, like The Prayer of Jabez and blah, blah, blah, you know?

And so they started to be like, oh, we're gonna, yeah. Capitalize on Chicken Soup for the Soul stuff. And they put together these compilation books, not just full of martyr stories, which is what the Jesus Freaks books were. Um, but still books designed to like, you know, keep indoctrinated children in the fold is now how it would describe it.

Krispin: Now let me get this straight.

You wrote a chapter in this book?

DL: I don't remember if I did.

Krispin: okay, we can cut that part. So

DL: I didn't write a chapter, but I reviewed all of the stories. Okay. And then I wrote an endorsement.

Krispin: also a picture of you

DL: Yes. Well, there's lots of pictures of me in this book and we'll get to that.

Okay. So if you look, if you open the book stories for the Extreme Teens Heart, which I bought this at a thrift store, two copies. like a few months ago.

Krispin: Both copies flying off the shelves.

DL: This is 50 cents. So if you turn open the book at the very top, it has my maiden name. and I say, this book has shown me the true meaning of Jesus freak.

And now I want to be one, which is a lie because I'd already wanted to be one for like four years at that point. But I love it. In my mind I'm like, this is the next step to Jesus Freak, which is hilarious. Um, and then on the back there's a picture of me and a little red hoodie, uh, with some other kids from Sisters Oregon.

And on the back I said, “After reading these stories, I find myself wanting to become a radical on fire for God. Teen, they have encouraged me to press harder in my relationship with Jesus Christ.” Again, lies, lies, lies because I already wanted to do all that before I read these stupid stories. But the other thing is I don't, so it's funny, I never thought of myself as a writer, so I never really tried to write for these kinds of books.

I was too extreme for that, I guess, I don't know. But they did have me stage a bunch of photo shoots for the book. So if you flip through the book and like faded black and white pictures, there are stage pictures of me like helping homeless people and stuff. And I was really upset about it because it was like some guy who worked at Multnomah pose as a homeless guy.

And then I, pretending to give him bread. And I felt really bad, bad about it. But my mom's, like, “you need to do it.” So there's, there's pictures like that.

Krispin: Oh, my gosh. It just goes,

DL: you seen this? Have you seen these? Christmas, you, that's

Krispin: kidding. So you are too radical. You were too extreme, too ethically, extreme for the

DL: …ethically extreme. And I just was so upset about it. So I've always felt embarrassed about this

Krispin: for that reason,

DL: But at the same time, like a year after this I was in YWAM, trying to give people bread. The next year after that, I was in college in Southern California starting a homeless ministry where we did bake PB&J’s and give 'em to homeless.

So I was like, I'm fine. I was fine with doing all that stuff, but I was like, this and then they took lots of pictures of us, like worshiping and blah, blah, blah. Anyways, there's, so I, you know, I qualify. I was a Jesus freak back in 2000, y'all.

Krispin: Mm-hmm hmm. . Yeah. What Well, this next this month for Paton only. We're gonna read my online magazine. Are you doing it? I'm gonna read my online magazine. I think I've worked through it enough. It was not an easy return to that part of my life.

DL: which will get you, I think this song is maybe like that for a lot of people right

Krispin: Yeah. Well, I. I know. So we talked to Jesse about the song last time

DL: and just say the name of the song again.

Krispin: It is So Help Me God. It is the first song on the album, Jesus Freak. And I think it's really important, like there's just a lot here.

DL: Wait. Before you, before you get into that, we just wanna say like, the response to our episode with Jessie’s has been really great and really incredible and, um, you know, what she shared resonated with so many people.

So we just wanna say like, thanks everybody for listening to that. And again,

I don't know if this is an appropriate way to say it, but like, we just need so many more representations of. What it's like to grow up believing this and then to like deconstruct in ways. Um, you know, everybody has different ways to do that, but I just thought Jessie's articulation was so wonderful and you just so much time, energy, and effort put into it and, and lots of people love that.

So, you know, saying all that, I think you were like, we still need to talk about this song because, you know, it's so important and I. I know you're gonna launch into it, but I do wanna ask you, like, do you think it's on purpose that this is the first song?

Krispin: Uh, yes I do. In a sense of like, I, I said it in the episode last time, it is so much evangelical, like mishmash. Mm-hmm. of like very evangelical phrases. So I feel like it is, the, the line in the first song is bombarded by philosophies, I feel, um, bombarded by Christianese when I hear this song. Yeah. Right.

About like, you know, being addicted to God, not loving God enough, you know, picking up your cross.

DL: So Help me God. Like I wanna love you more, but I'm also addicted to you.

But like, I'm really bad. But I love you so much. I love you so much. I love you so much. I love you so much.

Krispin: It's almost like, it is just like, we'll just keep throwing all these messages at you and you don't really have to like figure out what they mean because it just…

DL: I have a theory about what it all means.

Krispin: Okay. What?

DL: Yeah. So I would think like this album would start with Jesus freak, right? That's the titular song. You know, I love to say that phrase. Um, but instead it starts with this, which really primes the listener to.

Like be in this state of like, yes, I want to want this more. Like I already want it a lot, but I know it's like not enough and I like God, I need your help to want it more. And so it really gets you into this state of like, yes, I need to be more radical and love God more and like care about myself.

And so I'm like, yeah, that makes sense.

Why that's the first song. Cuz it's really priming you just psychologically to be like, yeah, I need to want this more. And um, here's a way to really over spiritualize that.

Krispin: right? Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think it, yeah, it's, I mean it's a strong, it is a strong track.

DL: in what sense?

Krispin: Yeah. I was gonna explain in what sense

DL: Okay.

Krispin: it is a strong track in terms of, in terms of setting the mood and the, the message of the whole album, I think. But what, as I was looking at it, um, there are, you know, there, there's the beginning that says, um, bombarded by philosophies.

And so this idea of like, you can't trust the world, right? You have to trust God. You, you're gonna like be attacked by the world. You gotta keep that wall up. You can't trust others. You have to trust God, which we know means trusting the people that tell you what God says. But then there's this other part of, you know, the second verse, “infected by the skin I'm in, that's starving with desire.” So this idea of like, there's something wrong with me, right? I'm broken. They sing about like, come make me whole again. You can't trust yourself

DL: Infected.

Krispin: Yes. Right?

DL: by your body?

Krispin: Yes.

DL: By being in a body. Yes. Is that what that means?

Krispin: that's that whole flesh thing, right? Like you are, it's the flesh versus the spirit. But the spirit is God and the flesh is you.

DL: Okay. Can we take a step back really quick and like when you were, you know, I first was 12 when I listened to this album, but like, let's say 14, when you were 14, like I had no concept of. What being infected in my body would mean. I would just be like, yeah, I guess I could pray more and think about dying for God more.

But that was like it. I think maybe you had like a slightly different experience.

Krispin: weren't very similar.

DL: so that's why I'm like, it's probably good to like take a step back and say like you might like, I never, I gloss over all that stuff cuz I did not hate myself. I was still like, of course I can want to die more.

Mm-hmm. and think about modern to more. , but I feel pretty good. Yeah. I was a Jesus freak man.

Krispin: I mean that really is the difference between us. I think I, on the one hand really, like I was, you know, in leadership at youth group a lot, but I also had this like dark shadow side where I was masturbating

DL: my gosh.

Krispin: right. And that it was like the big war, right? For me and. Lots of other 14 year old boys that listen to this song, I mean, I don't wanna limit it to boys, but I,

DL: but I think that's what boys, you know, as a general, it was focused on, and so, so I'm like, I'm sure these lines hit different, but another question I have for you, Krispin, before we, you know, keep going on this is like, who do you think is the intended audience of this album?

Krispin: Oh, definitely. Teenagers in youth groups. Yes. It is for teenagers in youth groups.

DL: so I also am thinking like this album is for. Kids who were indoctrinated as children, and then this is the next step in the process to keep them firmly entrenched in Christianity, would be this album. Do you think I'm making that up?

Krispin: No, I mean, I think that there are some ideas around like, “oh, if we make something really cool, it'll bring non-Christians in.” I think there is that theme, like, and I think that's sort of what people told themselves, but I think everybody sort of knew like, this is actually for, I mean, the way that it's written is to Christians. It is not an evangelistic record actually. It's not like, here's what the gospel is.

DL: anything about what Jesus said.

Krispin: No, it is actually like you have to try harder.

DL: No, so for me, I'm like, yes, it's teens, or other Christians who are, you know, need to be better Christians or more strongly entrenched in Christianity as the one true religion.

Krispin: Yeah. I think that's really worth mentioning.

And so I'm so glad that you, you centered that because it is during your teen years that you are identifying your sense of self. Like figuring out like, what do I believe? Like we have a tween, right? And we are seeing that -- you know, you're, you're interacting with different ideas, et cetera.

And so what's really interesting is like – okay, so I'm gonna nerd out for a minute.

DL: I'm gonna do it

Krispin: As a, you know, uh, someone interested in psychology.

DL: Don't say you're just interested in psychology. You are like one of the premier people who are talking about attachment science and how it intersects with evangelical theology.

So do not…

Krispin: well, thank you

DL: in my presence, do not demean yourself and belittle yourself like that.

Krispin: Okay? I always wanna be like, “I'm a psychologist,” but I'm not a psychologist. Um, I didn't go to school that long. Uh, but yes, I mean, I'm such a nerd out about this stuff. And so there’s this part of our development. So if you went to like Psychology 101, there are these psychosocial stages.

They're just kind of typical development stages. They’re basically like…it's by Eric Erickson. And so one of the stages is autonomy versus shame or self-doubt.

DL: can you just say the stages really quick?

Krispin: Yes. The first is trust versus mistrust. So it's like, can I trust the world? When I cry as a baby, will someone come to me? which is a lot of what my book was about.

Next stage is [Autonomy vs. Self-doubt], like, can I actually have a self? Can I actually have preferences? Can I do what I want? Can I say no?  That sort of thing. The next stage is initiative versus guilt. Can I do my own thing in the world, even if it's disconnected from what my parents are doing?

Krispin: So we're gonna talk about those second two.

There's, there's a bunch more stages that go throughout the whole lifespan. , but I thought this was so important because autonomy versus shame and guilt. Right? Autonomy. And what's interesting is Eric Erickson actually was a Christian. He converted to Christianity, but he said that part of our psychological development is developing our own moral compass, like being able to trust myself and can I trust my gut around this?

Can I have enough wisdom to know what is right and wrong?

And this song is saying you cannot trust yourself and you can't trust anyone other than the religious leaders.

DL: I mean, they're saying God, right.

DL: when they say God? They mean Billy Graham. mean themselves, I guess. Mm-hmm.

Krispin: they mean whatever other books are in this, like, you know, from this publisher and in part of this whole like me multimedia thing, right?

Mm-hmm, right? Yes. Mm-hmm.

DL: And then the kid listening to this is like your pastor and your youth pastor and your parents if they're, you know, evangelical Christians,right? And so, yeah, there's literally nothing about developing autonomy. And even as you're saying these, these values, I'm just like, no, my parents didn't want any of that developing and

Krispin: mm-hmm.

DL: and worked very, very hard. Right. To not have that develop and you know, who I, their motives are probably all over the map, but part of it is like a true fear of hell and, and wanting us to remain Christian. But it's really, you know, sad to think then you have to crush some really important life stages, you know?

Yeah. Right.

Krispin: Yeah. And this season we're, we're not focusing so much on like, how do we resolve this theologically. I will say that there are theologians out there that are like, that I'm really influenced by that are saying like, yeah, “God wants to walk alongside humanity so that we have wisdom so that we can be autonomous in a way of like doing the right thing and caring for ourselves and caring for.”

The message here is like, this is a message to Christians, and they're saying to Christians that are supposedly redeemed and saved, saying like, “you cannot trust yourself,” like “you are still infected.” “You are still broken at the core.” And so I think it's really important to ask that question. Like if you grow up being told that message over and over that you can't, um, you can't trust yourself, you're broken, which I think is related to something that, uh, Jesse mentioned briefly, which was trusting your gut. Right. Where, how does that impact you? I think on a just a basic developmental level. I think a lot of times it means that you can get set up for relationships that are toxic and unhealthy because it's like, this doesn't feel right. Maybe this feels abusive, but I can't trust my gut. Like I just need to look to God and what God is saying.

I think that it means, I guess my mind just keeps on going back to abusive situations. Same with churches, right? Like I can't like this doesn't feel right. This feels bad. I can't, but I can't listen to my body because if I listen to my body, that is my flesh. That is my sin nature. Right. And so we get in this place where we can't act like our body is so full of things that tell us really important things.

And we are told over and over, no, your body is lying to you because it is evil.

DL: Yeah. Okay. I'm, I'm starting to have a meltdown again because this is really, this is really important stuff and it's really big stuff and, and I, we, you know, we lost some patreon Supporters after our episode with Jesse Arid and, and you were like, I wonder why. And I was like, I'm pretty sure it's cuz we call it a white evangelicals them a cult, Oh, that's probably why. But I think it's important to talk about this because like part of the way cults operate is they do condition the people right to accept. Abusive relationships and, and abusive dynamics, right? It's just like, yeah, this is, this is part of how God wants it and, and white evangelism. If you're not comfortable calling it a cult, that's fine, but I do think we need to look at some of these elements, which includes like telling people to not trust themselves is a recipe for abuse and exploitation of vulnerable people. There's just no way around that. And so if you grew up in this kind of environment, and I also wanna say something really quick – dwhich is people sometimes can feel kind of weird. You know, you and I were both born into this high control religion and people kind of feel weird if they may be.

Joined it in high school or college or their twenties. Um, and I just wanna [say, you shouldn't feel weird. Like you probably experienced trauma in your life that led you to needing community and support and you were vulnerable because of trauma is basically what happens. Or you're isolated or you're lonely or nobody around you is, is talking about these particular issues, right? You have anxiety, you have depression. Um, so I just wanna say even if you like willingly signed up for this, like you had good reasons and you were exploited Okay. By this, this high control group. So I just wanna say that really quick. Yeah.

Krispin: no, I think that's really important because what it is, is it is you are offered unconditional love and um, and even in the attachment research, they find like people are drawn to Christianity because they're finding, they're promised something. that they've not found elsewhere.

Right. And that is a really important thing. Like we need that unconditional love that is just like a human need. Um, and a lot of times we don't know what the ticket is for admittance until later. Right? It's like, yes, you're given unconditional love in exchange for losing your sense of.

DL: and it's not, doesn't really feel unconditional, does it?

Krispin: No, it doesn't.

DL: I mean, Jesus Freak’s the entire album and then all the accompanying books, it's like the opposite of unconditional. Mm-hmm. And in fact, they keep hammering home over and over again in the books.

Like, you must be prepared to die at any moment. That doesn't feel unconditional, Yeah. Does it?

Krispin: No. No it does not.

DL: And I did not receive it as unconditional. Let me see. Both you and I are very different in that, right? But mine was like, well then I must. I don't know. Do we really wanna get into the autonomy stuff right now? Like what this looked like in my life.

Krispin: let's do it.

DL: Okay, so what happens if you grow up in this world and you take it all really seriously? That's just a question I've been asking myself. I was, you know, an undiagnosed autistic girl, and so I just, I heard these albums and then I read the books, and then I had my own parents telling me,

Yeah. If you're a girl in this world and you really care about stuff like then you can be a missionary. Right? I couldn't be a pastor or anything like that. So I am 38 years old now, and I'm just now in the past year. So really grappling with. The lack of autonomy I've had in my own life, and it's a really hard realization to come to because I always kind of thought I did, like I'm choosing to be a Jesus freak.

I'm choosing to be a missionary and like I actually get a lot of positive, like reinforcement of those values, right. Like starting an evangelical punk band when I was 13, touring Northern California, like being on the worship team, you know, graduating early so I could go join YYAM and you know, like in the, in that world I was seen as like upper, you know, not upper management. What am I trying to say?

Krispin: right? Yeah. Like a, a first class

DL: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. There we go. Middle management, me management at best is what I was. And now looking back, it's like, yeah, I took it all so seriously. There was literally nothing else I could do. When I was six years old, I told my family that was gonna be a missionary to Madagascar and everyone was like, yay.

And like, they never told me to go to college. You know, they never encouraged anything else. It was just that, just that, that, that, that, that. And so, um,

Krispin: yeah, pause for a minute because talking about like Erickson's autonomy versus shame in self-doubt, right? Like the thing when you have over controlling parents or an over controlling religious system is what I'm saying.

DL: Mm-hmm.

Krispin: Then it's like they instill in you that if you strike out on your own or you  make your own decisions or you decide what your values are, then you are met with shame, which creates self-doubt. So you're living with this anxiety all the time of like, am I doing the right

DL: Well, I think, I'm glad you said that cause I think that's how most people take it. For me, I didn't mm-hmm. and that's what I'm grappling with. Mm-hmm. at 38 years old is that I was really exploited by the system cuz I never even had a thought. I literally. Never, ever, ever thought I could do anything else.

There's no other option for me.

Krispin: Well, and that goes into Erickson's stage three, which is initiative versus guilt and . I know I'm, I'm throwing these psychological terms in there, but I found it so interesting. Interesting. Because what it is, is the kid is like, “Can I go play with my friends? Can I go do this thing that I am interested in?” and for the child, what it can feel like is a betrayal of my family, a betrayal of my parents, um, because my life revolves around them and around our little family.

“And am I allowed to go out into the world and do something else?” And um, and healthy families, parents are like, “yeah, go do your own thing.” Like, “you don't need your life to revolve around me.”

DL: That's not my life. That was not my growing up.

Krispin: No, and I'm thinking about like that relationship with God, where God is like, yeah, you like your entire life needs to revolve around me.

And so that feeling of betrayal that Erickson talks about, that is such a real feeling. And if you're also part of a family or community that also has that same message of like our whole, everything about us revolves around Christianity… So if you step outside of that, then you are betraying us.

DL: Yeah, and again, coming back to my experience, I know it's unique, being autistic, I think from an early age I just latched on to like, yes, I will do what my parents tell me to do because they hear from God, you know? And I believe them. I had to believe them. You know, again, like maybe it's part of being autistic, but it's like if they were wrong about that, they're wrong about everything.

And, and when you're a kid, you can't think that. That's like too, you know, existentially terrifying to, to think about. And so I just did that for so many years of my life, including, you know, going to bible college, multiple bible colleges, meeting you like when you met me, right? I was very much like, I don't date people because nobody wants to move to Russia and start an orphanage.

Like I was so all-in and nobody thought it was weird. Again, I was privileged in this world in some ways, in Bible college world and all this because I was so serious. And sometimes I'm like, is that just the purpose of albums like this? And in like the books, it's like you cast this wide net and then you, you get all the easily exploited people

Krispin: Mm-hmm.

DL: to join.

Krispin: Right? I mean, my story I not that different than yours. Like, I mean, we both ended up at Bible college, which I think says a lot.

There are people that fall outside of this, but if you went, ended up at, at Bible college, you probably had a like to go into ministry,

DL: or your parents did pressure you to go or your church

Krispin: Yeah. Yeah. There, that is a decision often that comes from that. Like you have to stay within, like your life has to revolve around the Bible, right?

For our Patreon only episode next month we're gonna read my online magazine. And one of the things as I was rereading that was like me, like listening to these Christian albums, but they weren't Christian enough for me. , you know, and I think that's like a really good picture of like, yeah, like your every single moment of your life has to revolve around these spiritual things.

You can't listen to albums just because you like them, even though they're clean and still from tooth and nail and there's nothing bad in them. Right. It's like I felt like I was betraying God if I was doing something other than just focused on God every single moment.

DL: Yeah. So you were like the perfect example of this song, which is you were addicted to this relationship, right? Mm-hmm. with God. Yeah, but also like, well, I'm never doing enough, you know? Worst of both worlds, man. Mm-hmm. . That's anxious attachment, I guess. Huh?

Krispin: I mean, when I think about, yes, when I think about it, I'm like, I totally had this two senses of self, you know? Which is not uncommon for people, but mine was like so strong because I was like, yes, I am more spiritual than all my, like the other kids at youth group, you know?

And also feeling like, yeah, I'm not doing enough. I'm still sinning. Like why do I keep sinning?

DL: Yeah. SO yeah, like, it just feels kind of heavy to me. Like the people this lands on the most, like the people who bear, who bear the burdens of this kind of theology are already sort of like vulnerable people, right? Easily exploited by like high control religion.

I don't know. What else do you have about this song?

Krispin: Yeah, I just thought it was really important to like, notice those messages, right? And look at those two different like stages and hopefully for folks to be like, oh yeah, I missed out on that. And like, what does that, how does that impact me today? You know, I even think about if I can't listen to my body, I don't know when to rest.

You know, even things like. , you know, feeling the need to care for my body in different ways. You know, I think that there's so much that gets missed out on, um, that I've been having to learn. Yeah.

DL: You know, no, I think anybody who was super into white evangelicalism is probably gonna need to do some work.

Getting in touch with their emotions and getting in touch with their body. Like I still have tons of work to do and that it might be the rest of my life. And I think it is helpful sometimes to be like, We're not just really bad at this. Like we, we were explicitly taught how to disconnect from our bodies.

And not even that, just to like distrust them and really to police ourselves constantly. Like we didn't even need the church. We didn't even need DC talk on our ears all the time. Like if you, if you. Take this all at face value. You're like, yes, I must interrogate my every thought. I mean, the, the accompany, you know, books that go along with this album, they are very much more explicit about that and say, you know, live every day like it's your last, like, imagine yourself, like, would you die for Christ?

Imagine that every day, you know?

Krispin: right. So before we go there, I think thinking about this right and this messaging, this song, and thinking about them going onto tour with Billy Graham, I think we can look at this as a moment in history where people are not like - they're not culturally controlled to go to church, right? And so you put out this messages that, that is calling people to be really committed in this internal way. Uh, whereas in the past, there is much more external control.

So I think there's that piece, but then you get into the books, which you're gonna talk about, which like Militarizes…it militarizes it a little bit more. Makes it more militant.

DL: Yeah, it's interesting cause I'm like, we, we have to find a way to talk about the books and I'm not sure this is like the best episode to do that, but I just wanna really quickly say: if you were really into the album Jesus Freak, there's a very good possibility that you picked up the books that were published just a few years after right? By the same name, I guess, it’s pluralized though. So the book I wanna talk about really quickly is the first one that Jesus Freaks by DC Talk and the Voice of the Martyrs, and it's, it's called “Stories of those Who Stood for Jesus, the Ultimate Jesus Freaks”. And so I was really obsessed with this book.

Um, did you read it?

Krispin: No, I did not.

DL: You never read it?

Krispin: No. But I can appreciate that every person you've shown it to has like, put it down and been like, “this is too triggering for me. Why did you make me read this?”

DL: I keep trying to get my sisters to like read passages and they're just like, no. And um, I, I think I'm actually gonna do an episode with at least one of my sisters to kind of talk through this book more.

But really quickly, I wanna say, because I think this kind of, uh, unfortunately, really applies to the discussion like that we were just having, which is this kind of theology, and I'm gonna talk about martyr stuff in another episode, but, focusing on persecution, outside threats of persecution and martyrdom stories is a hallmark of cults. Okay? And violent religious movements. So if you're not uncomfortable calling white evangelicalism a cult, then you can just say, fine. We are using tactics of violent religious movements that have been overly spiritualized. And we say, no, they're just stories of the martyrs anyway. So the beginning of this book, there's like a few different intros and so they have each member of DC talk share.

I mean, it's probably ghost written. Like why this is important. And you know, they're just, whatever. They're just religious, blah, blah, blah. Okay. So all three of the members of JC Talk do that. And then we have a message from Tom White, who is the director, a voice of the martyrs. Okay. And he talks about meeting Richard Rebrand, who went to prison, Romania for 14 years for, for being a Christian.

Okay. This is one of the things he says in his intro. He says, the greatest pressure on the one who stands up for Jesus is the thought that they're alone, the only one that is a lie. When I was on trial in Cuba for the gospel with a machine gun behind me, the prosecutor made fun of me. I told him about Hebrews 12, one, which mentions the cloud of witnesses around us.

He was upset when I mentioned the saints and angels around me. And then he kind of goes on to talk about how everything was taken from him in prison, and then he began singing hymns in praise choruses. And then he worshiped God throughout everything. And so he kind of is doing this on a positive note, right?

The greatest encouragement I can give my fellow Jesus freaks is that you are never alone. Those you will read about in this book are your family. They surround you. So kind of saying for the next, you know, 200 pages or so, like you have to imagine yourself as family. Imagine yourself like me, you know, like

Krispin: mm-hmm.

DL: going to prison in Cuba and stuff.

And then, oh, okay, so this book was published in 1999.

In 2012… Okay, this is about to get really heavy . Are you ready? Okay, so, so Tom White wrote this introduction to the Jesus Freaks book by DC Talk and he, [you know, led the organization Voice of the Martyrs. He was the executive director, and in 2012, he was found dead at the voice of the Martyrs like ministry compound. By suicide because he was being investigated for abusing children and he killed himself rather than facing all those allegations and like I just think, like stories like this, you know, this is just one of like, how many do we have like in this world, like of white evangelicalism, when you look at the people who were leading the organizations, who were running the ministries, who were writing the books, you know what I'm thinking about?

Rabbi Zacharias, right? And Bill Hebels and, I mean, we could just go on and on and on. So many of them have been perpetrators of abuse. And like that never gets reckoned with like ever. And so for me, That does color, and it should for everyone color, every story put forth in this book of propaganda.

You know what I mean? And this is not just like a one time thing for DC talk, like they partnered with Voice of the Witness. And in fact, you know, even in 2020, Toby Mack is sharing on his Facebook about like the new edition of Jesus Freaks put out by Voice of the Martyrs.

And voice of the martyrs went onto fire their founder’s son (Richard Warner) because he told the board of directors like, we need to investigate this child abuse stuff more, I think more people were abused and you just spent 25 million on your compound, and so he was fired. And I just think, this kind of stuff, this song that we're talking about today…It primes you to be open to being exploited and the people in charge knew that.

I just don't know what else to say. It's so depressing to me.

Krispin: yeah. I mean, I was thinking about the title of the song, So Help Me God. Right. It could mean a lot of things, that phrase could mean a lot of things. In this song. It means “I can't, I am incompetent. I can't trust myself. There's something wrong with me, and so I need you to step in.”

DL: So Help Me, God, to stop trusting myself. Mm-hmm. , right?

Krispin: Mm-hmm.

DL: to stop listening to myself.

Krispin: Yeah, what does it mean to put my faith in you? We can look to the verses to know that's what it means to put my faith in you is to distrust every single other thing. And I mean, I want to say that there are, there are ways of having great faith that do not mean that you disregard your whole experience. There are traditions of Christianity that do not require you to just dismiss your experience. Also, if you're like, yeah, this was so damaging to me and I need to walk away, I think that is totally fine too, but I just want to say that. I guess what I want to say is that word faith, I think is actually being abused, like being exploited. Right, like we, like there are so many people in the world that have faith and to say like, this is what it means to really have faith and you have to go to this next level, I think is, I mean, it's just spiritual abuse

DL: Yeah. And it, and it all, it all has purposes. And some of them are, I would say even like sociological. Some of them are psychological and a lot of them are also financial, like at the end of the Voice of the Witness book, right. It's like, here's all the things you should do in response to all these stories.

You know, write the governments, you know, Whatever, but also like support organizations like Voice of the Martyrs. So give financially to missionaries and to organizations like Voice of the Martyrs. Like buy these books, send them to your friends, like buy DC Talks album, go to Billy Graham's crusades, donate money to him.

Like there's a financial component to this where you get people to buy in ideologically, but then to basically become radicalized and to support financially as.

Krispin: Also, I just, okay. I passed by this a minute ago.

When you said it, you said their facility was $25 million.

DL: Like an expansion of it? Yeah.

Krispin: Wow. I'm just thinking about like we've gotten magazines from Voice of the Martyrs. Right? And like the pictures are always…

DL: by the way, I got it. I'm subscribed to it just so I can keep tabs on these.

Krispin: Okay. I wondered. But it's like, it's just wild to think about that, about like pedaling these stories of people that are in persecution and I think part of that is poverty. To spend that much money on your center in the US…

DL: Yeah. Let me just,

Krispin: I mean, not like this is surprising, but

DL: So in 2012 is when Tom completed suicide after allegations of child abuse were made against him. Okay? Then in 2014, Michael Rebrand, the son of founder Richard Rebrand, was fired from his position at the office after calling for an independent investigation into the overseas activities of Tom White.

He was very concerned that more children might have been molested. And then Michael also released a statement concerning the firing, which criticized the unwillingness of the board to do an investigation, the 28 million new headquarters and concerns about the criminal record backgrounds of one of the vice presidents and plus some other concerns.

So 28 million.

Krispin: Mm-hmm.

DL: Yeah. These things, it's rotten, I feel. Okay. If we're gonna talk about getting in touch with that guts, how are your guts feeling right now, Krispin?

Krispin: Angry.

DL: My guts feel bad. I see. I'm so bad at being in touch. I'm just like, I just feel bad. I just feel bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. I probably feel sad, but it, my tummy Mm-hmm. . So I think it's, it's helpful to think about like, we're not, this is not just like an expose, this is not us.

I, I don't know what people think this is, but all I'm saying is if you grew up in.

It will have impacted you and you deserve to like say that because I really beat myself up currently for being really outta touch with my emotions and body and I feel a lot of shame, for not even realizing how little autonomy I've had over my life up, up until the past few years. I have a lot of shame about that. But at the same time, it helps me to look back and be like, oh, well this is on purpose. The goal was for me never to have autonomy, you know? And so I was just trying so hard to be a good Christian that I, I didn't develop a connection to my gut, really.

And all that. So I just hope people can take a moment to. Yeah. If I have issues connecting to my feelings or my body, um, there's a reason for that. If this was a really huge part of your life.

Krispin: yeah.

As a therapist, one thing that I ask people about a lot is, “what do you think you need right now?” Because we do have wisdom within ourselves to know like, what, what is it that I need? Like I'm struggling with something. Right? And so I was really struck when, um, in our Facebook group for the Patreon members, somebody shared some curriculum from, uh, the camp that Jesse talked about last time,

DL: Bob Jones Camp, the Wilds.

Krispin: And actually we were talking to Jesse about this and she pointed out that on one side, the sinful side is the question, what do I need? And on the other side is something like, how can I please God? And she pointed out that, those are polar opposites. And so it just really struck me, again, thinking as a therapist, where I ask people all the time, like, our work is like, what is it that you need right now?

Like, can you get in touch with what you need? Because that will guide you in a healthy way of living. And how that question is sinful, and I think that is like, A big impact that this sort of Jesus freak, um, radicalization has on people.

DL: Yeah. I think one thing that came to mind when you were saying that is like, it's really hard when you're somewhere in the process of untangling these really.

Toxic narratives and you're still like, I think I'm a Christian, or I think I'm a person of faith, and it could just be so confusing. And I just wanna say this podcast creates space for everybody. If you've totally donezo, that's great. I mean that. Mm-hmm. you, if you, like Jesse pointed out, and I think this resonated with a lot of people.

If you became a Christian because you were a little kid and you were told you would go to hell otherwise, or like your family would pressure you or be anguished if you didn't say like, you know what I mean? Like that's not really choice. Like, and you get to choose from this day forward what you actually believe.

Right? And that's, that's kind of where I am. But when you say like, what is it you need? It's like, I would a God who loves me, unconditionally.

You know, I like some of the things that were promised to me that I never actually ended up experiencing in my body, or my mind. And so, I don't know, it's just kind of like a sad but sweet realization to be like, there's a reason we were drawn to this was a reason why we stayed in.

Um, and I think asking that question can be really, really helpful to people.

Do You feel like answering that question, what you feel like you need?

Krispin: I mean, being asked that question makes me want to cry.

DL: oh, I'm turning the questions back on the therapist. Now who's gonna cry?

Krispin: Oh my gosh. I mean, I think. I think that I need a, a divine parent that I don't have to keep happy

DL: Hmm.

Krispin: and that, um, is actually there for me, not, it's my job to you know, it's not my job to keep God happy. And that was, has just been the story of most of my life.

DL: that's why you wrote a freaking book Attached to God,

Krispin: Yes. Yes, that's true. But I will be transparent and say I'm still working through that because I think it goes beyond like, oh, I'm gonna, am I gonna lose this relationship? I think that was the first step, is like to remove that anxiety. But I think the next step is like, well, am I allowed to have my own opinion?

allowed to have my own thoughts and my own experiences and my Um, I'm reminded of, um, Doug Frank wrote this book called Gentler God, um, that I love

DL: that you're obsessed with.

Krispin: And he talks about his daughter being like, I wish God would just stop reading my thoughts and give me a little space.

DL: That's how I'm right now.

Krispin: Right, exactly. And I was like, that is really beautiful. Like, it's okay to ask that. And there's, again, like within Christian theology, there are lots of these questions like what does it mean to choose to really choose God? What does a, a healthy relationship look like? Um, you know, cuz it, it never, it's.

Nobody likes to be in a relationship where you are the problem all the time, , and that's the message. It's like there's a problem here and it's not God, so it's you. And that shame just can stick with So I'm so glad that we're naming these things, talking about these things.

Like I said, I hope that, like talking about those like developmental stages,

DL: mm-hmm.

Krispin: if you're finding like, yeah, I have a hard time. Like I, I think there are a lot of folks right now that are like, yeah, God has been not only my, like my spiritual life, but my professional life and my hobbies

DL: even in your personal life, like your family,

Krispin: right.

Yeah. And so it's like if I am not like making every single moment revolve around God in this like very religious way, like what is, what do I like to do? What is my life about? What are, what are, you know, things that I'm interested in and for like, I keep on running into people that are like, I'm just now asking this now.

DL: I know and you know this, that I'm really struggling with this question. And

Krispin: one of the people I ran into

DL: and

Krispin: just didn't wanna,

DL: do, you didn't wanna call me out

Krispin: didn't wanna name it

DL: cause I was such a good little Jesus freak, um, that I'm really struggling. Like what do I do now? And I think, um,

I'm

like, Fine. I was the best little Jesus freak, and now I'll freaking take 'em down.

Like I will take them down because there's a need to expose corruption and abuses of power within white evangelicalism. But you keep reminding me, just cause there's like a need that doesn't mean you're supposed to do it. And that is such a foreign concept to me that I'm just like, well, I don't believe you, I still have no clue what I want to do and I can't make decisions like that yet. Um, which is sad. It's, I'm, it's a really sad and it's, you know, I wouldn't wish where I'm at on anybody.

Being a parent is helpful because you think about what you would want for your kids. You know, watching you do meaningful work that you like to do is really helpful in all these things.

But yeah, I'll just say like, I'm a poster child for someone who now has no clue of what I like or what you, and why should I even think about that? You know, I'm, I'm really struggling talking about this out loud.

Krispin: Yeah. I mean, you said something in our last episode to Jesse that was really, I think, illuminating around that initiative versus guilt piece of like, am I betraying my parents or my God by being interested in something else?

And you talked about like our kids love anime, right? When we were that age, we were obsessed with being Jesus freaks.

DL: You know, my story particular when we get to the martyr stuff is what, when I was our kid's age, like my mom told me the world was. And I was gonna be a martyr before I turned 16.

So this stuff was not theoretical to me. I've been living literally as if I was going to die very soon, and I've lived my whole life like that, and now, you know, I have a whole host of mental health problems and physical problems because nobody is designed to live like that every day.

Krispin: a lot of people have asked us, when are you going to do, when will you do the left behind series? And you know, I think we've said multiple times like, we are not gonna do it. And this is the reason, is because there like is a lot of religious

DL: so much religious trauma for me.

Krispin: Yeah.

DL: Yeah. So I'm sorry if this offensive to people to kind of go for the, the jugular of white evangelism, but we're not denigrating people of faith, and I hope we've made that clear.

And we're not denigrating Christianity as a whole, but this whole project has been focused on like the pop cultural artifacts of white evangelicalism from the eighties and nineties and you know, I guess two thousands. Two and, and I think that stuff is worth dissect. And hopefully burning to the ground.

I'll just be, I'll just be in my anarchist self here. Yeah. It needs to be overthrown. The profits need to be given back to the people who are exploited and yeah.

Krispin: Yep. 100%. Y'all already know this. Hopefully that we, we just want it to burn down.

DL: well, anyways, you guys can support our, um, burning to the ground effort first by joining our Patreon.

It's very cheap. And then you can be in our Facebook group and we have some incredible interviews coming up. It's not gonna just be me and crisp and yammering on about things. We're talking to other really cool people, and we have a lot more songs to get through.

Krispin: Mm-hmm.

DL: and Books. The one by Rebecca St. James called Sister Freaks

Krispin: Yes, that is coming.

Next episode is gonna be colored people, perhaps the worst titled perhaps the worst titled song on the album. Definitely the worst titled song on the album. Um, we do appreciate y'all listening. We appreciate you joining in the process with us. I think it's just really important to have these conversations.

So thanks again for listening and we will be back soon.