From Jesus Freak to Therapy Freak (w/Jessie McLaughlin)
We talked to Jessie McLaughlin about “So Help Me God.” She shares with us about her experience of growing up Christian, the inner turmoil of taking it very seriously, and how she’s been healing from religious trauma through therapy.
We love Jessie’s twitter feed where she talks about recovering from evangelicalism, hilarious day-to-day things, and you can see her design work on her instagram.
She sings on her husband’s record, Man Overboard by James and the Shame, and our favorite song is Where We’re Going, one of the tracks Jessie sings on.
We have a website—check it out for more information. You can also find us on Twitter and Instagram.
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Jessie
Krispin: We are here today with Jesse McLaughlin and we’re very excited, to be talking about the first track of Jesus Freak. We first got connected with Jesse through Twitter,
Jessie: my favorite social media,
Krispin: Uhhuh,
Danielle: oh, RIP. I left Twitter. I can't believe it, but if I had to do it, it finally happens. So,
Jessie: I get it.
Danielle: but that's, that's how I met really cool people, including Jessie.
Mm-hmm. . And we are fans of Good Mythical Morning, which is a YouTube show that your husband's involved with and they've kind of been in the news for some deconstruction stuff in the past. And then your your social media is obviously beautiful art and furniture and aesthetics, but a, a bit of, uh, the deconstruction stuff as well, and you're really into therapy, which really caught my eye because I'm new to being in therapy and it's life changing, and my poor therapist husband has just been waiting, waiting, waiting for me to join the team -- the getting help team. So here we are. Jesse, do you wanna go ahead and just kind of tell the listeners a little bit about who you are and you know, how you're coming into this conversation about DC Talks album, Jesus Freak.
Jessie: Sure. Well thank y'all so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here and, uh, meet you in per… well over the screen, but face to face. I do love Twitter because of the cool people that I've met. It, it's a unique space to do that, so I am crossing my fingers that can stay on there, but we'll see.
I am, uh, from the south, from North Carolina originally. Grew up in a small town outside of Raleigh. I was a Christian from the time… I mean, one of my earliest memories, I don't know exactly why it happened under the kitchen table, but I remember accepting Jesus into my heart under the kitchen table,
And that's one of my very early memories. And one of my other early memories is, Being at the park on the swing set and witnessing to a little girl, I think I was six at the time, . Um, you know, I was concerned that this little six year old was gonna burn in hell if I did not tell, give her the gospel.
Krispin: So relatable.
Jessie: I spent a lot, spent a lot of time thinking about people burning in hell at a very young age, which is something I, I think about now. And what that does to a kid.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Jessie: to believe that lots of people, in fact, the majority of people are going to burn in hell. But you might be responsible, uh, if you had the opportunity to save them and you did not.
And. Yeah, so , we went to a Christian school, had a very loving, wonderful family, and the school that they sent me to because it was, you know, out of the options, it was actually probably one, of looking back, one of the lesser evils than it could have been in terms of private Christian schools in the South
Krispin: Hmm mm-hmm.
Jessie: and I think a huge amount of my trauma came from being in that school. It was a conservative. You know, non-denominational, but probably closest to Southern Baptist Christian School. A lot of the teachers had gone to Bob Jones University.
You know, my family was actually. Pretty chill. We knew there were a lot of things that we would say “that's crazy.” Like the fact that women at Bob Jones have to wear skirts and hose and, I mean, we were a very…I don't wanna say worldly, family because we definitely weren't worldly, but we were in the world. Maybe that's the way to say it. We were definitely in the world. You know, we loved cute clothes. My mom was a designer, so I saw a lot of that from an early age. We watched tv, of course there were some shows that were debatable.
Krispin: Yeah.
Jessie: Although, you know, my, my parents… my mom and dad never took a really hard line on those kind of tertiary issues. That wasn't their thing, which I'm so grateful for. But because of who I was, I really latched on to anything that felt like a rule that I needed to follow. Um, and you know, I think, uh, when I was just kind of giving you guys a brief rundown of, of my spiritual history, um, I realized, looking back, I realized by third grade I had full blown OCD. I did not know that that's what it was, did not have the information that we have now.
So, I was erasing homework, again and again, erasing a hole in the paper. I was confessing to my… wonderful, thank God, I had an incredible third grade teacher. And at recess I would sit on the bench beside her and confess to her that I had thought a curse word, you know, and I'll never forget her saying, she tried to say, you know, Jessie, if you're driving a car and maybe you run a red light, you don't need to find the nearest police officer and, and let them know that you ran a red light.
So there were adults in my life who are saying those kinds of things, but at the same time, I was getting these messages that, uh, as we talk about in the song, you know, I'm evil to the core. I'm totally depraved. I didn't have those words, but that came later on in my Bible classes, um, that got more and more advanced bible theology classes, um, because it was that, I guess it's kind of that John Piper Baptist with that little reformed twist, that thing.
Danielle: Oh wow. That is the most toxic combo. Let me just tell you, let me just tell you right now,
Krispin: Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, like, just, just thinking about your childhood, I think that's such a good picture of what so many of us went through where it's like we didn't have those outward sort of cult, sort of like, you have to dress in a certain way, or you have like from the outside it looks pretty chill, and then on the inside it is, does not feel chill.
Danielle: Well, and certain people, and I think Jessie, you've already brought this up. You're like, I just happened to be the kind of person that took it seriously and took it literally. And what does that do when you're 6, 7, 8? Um, I, I'm just sort of like in awe of how you're able to even look back at yourself and, and see that.
And it's really sad. I just have to say like listening to you talk. It's really sad that maybe, I mean, I guess my whole life I grew up being like, why isn't everybody taking this as seriously as I am? Because, you know, it kind of makes me wanna die when I think about the pressure inherent in um, evangelicalism.
Jessie: Hmm.
Danielle: I just wanna say wow. Um, that's just a lot. And also, I'm glad you were able to say how your OCD showed up because I only this year have realized that I also have OCD, but because I was in white evangelicalism, I was just a really spiritual person who was obsessed with being an ethical person that's actually called moral scrupulosity people. Just in case anybody listening has that too, you can get help for it.
Jessie: It's amazing. There's therapy, there's medication. It changed my life and it helped me realize that everything is not that serious. It's not all that serious.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. , but mm-hmm.
Danielle: we were the perfect. People for fundamentalism is what is so fascinating about it. And they don't care about how it impacts us negatively because outwardly we do everything they tell us to do without hesitation.
Jessie: oh. I mean, I was a valedictorian. I followed the rules. I never made a B, I never, not that that means shit, it doesn't mean I don't, can I curse on this podcast? I'm sorry. Okay. Like it, it meant nothing. But I was caught in a performance trap and, you know, I, I also, my parents, how were they supposed to know?
I would confess these things to my mom, I maybe thought something or whatever. The reason I had in school, there was a lot of, I think I've cheated on tests. That was part of my, you know, I would see the kids in between classes would say, you know, kids tell each other. That's a thing that happens.
That's a normal thing that normal people who are not morally depraved do, is they go out and they tell other kids what was on the test. And that was like my worst nightmare. I feared walking through the halls and hearing, you know, so I, I was care constantly carrying this bur this heavy burden and, you know, I would confess things to my mom and, and she did the best, a great job, uh, without being, you know, a therapist.
Trying to help me, but she didn't know what she was dealing with. Uh, and so, and, and thinking about which something I haven't gotten into yet as deeply as I would like to, we've started, uh, I think grazing the surface of attachment styles. And mine was definitely, you know, I am anxious for sure, like I was extremely needy. Um, and ended up using my mom for reassurance. So she became the person that I, you know, I confessed to. She was like my priest, even though she did not set herself up that way, that was, I saw her as the moral authority. so in my mind, you know, and sometimes it would be a teacher, sometimes it was whoever was in authority that I had to clear my conscience with, which I thought was the Holy Spirit.
In my family, while the rules that seemed ridiculous to them, they could easily say, this is a ridiculous rule. I could not. I remember being at The Wilds, which was a camp put on by Bob Jones for private Christian schools.
Danielle: Oh my God.
Jessie: I remember just bawling and just such deep regret over having worn a bikini, um, just crying and begging God to forgive me.
And I think I wore a bikini again after that. So apparently it was in that moment. It was really, but, you know, and I would have these, these bizarre, which now again, I look back, I'm like, oh, that's OCD, um, these bizarre connections that it was like, if I do this thing, God is gonna punish me. God is gonna punish the people I love, even though I knew.
And some people will say, oh, well you don't, you never understood the gospel. And that is bullshit. I knew the gospel backwards and forwards. I knew scripture. I had fucking OCD I'm, you think I'm not reading the Bible ? Like I read the Bible every, I'm on my knees praying for an hour and a half before I go to middle school.
You know, like this is not normal. If I, and, and one thing that people love to say, you know, as well, I said it, I would say it about people who left the faith. Um, you, they, they were never really a Christian. To begin with. And what I wanna say is, if I wasn't a Christian, if my husband wasn't a Christian, Christian's got a big ass problem.
Cause you how? Yes. Like maybe God had not really touched our heart and we were pretending. But if the, the, if that is the kind of God, if the kind of God would let us believe and give our lives in the way that we did, like you said, I took it seriously.
Danielle: Yeah. You did.
Jessie: Yeah, maybe I don't understand Christianity and I'm at the point where I'm like, you know what?
If that's really what you think about me, like if you really believe that. Maybe that's okay. Like I'm starting to be able to be okay with people thinking I was never a Christian. Does it hurt it?
Danielle: mm.
Jessie: I can't explain how much it hurts, but I'm learning that what you think about me is not my problem or my business.
But it's taken a lot of therapy, , and it's still, and I every day fall back into those old patterns. But I feel more myself than I've ever felt before, and I feel freer. And we know where the spirit of the Lord is. There's freedom and I got freedom. So I'm choosing to believe I have the spirit of the Lord, whatever that means, and I don't have to know anymore.
But if this is what it feels like, To be free, to be yourself, to be slowly unfolding into the person that it feels more authentic than you ever felt before. I mean, to me, that's where God is. I can't imagine that God's desire for me was the, uh, the tortured person that I was before
Danielle: Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Oh my gosh. I'm just like crying over here because I don’t even know what I believe anymore cuz I've been tortured for so long. And the church was like, yeah, please keep torturing yourself. Um, uh, and, and me getting free is seen as, you know, Destroying them, destroying God. Cuz I'm just like, what is [00:16:00] happening?
And I really agree with you. Like I don't know what's going on but I feel free. Um, and I also relate to growing up extreme. I call hyperreligious now I was a hyperreligious person and some of what you've said sounds like you were as well. And we take it seriously, we go all in. And the negative impacts are mostly internal, especially if you're a woman or socialize as female, we internalize the anxiety.
Nobody knows our suicidal ideation. Nobody knows our intrusive thoughts. We keep it inside right? And the pain is unbearable. And I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. And sometimes, and you're a mom too, like I look at my kids and they're 12 and seven and they're obsessed with anime. And I'm just like, what would've been like to grow up where I thought about anime all the time and not about people burning in hell.
Cuz that's also what I thought about. Um, and it's just fascinating to be like, We can see some of that in our kids and then also wish, you know, we had the same given to us, but that fundamentalist urge, right? I grew up in that world. It's like now I have to try and convince everybody to stop being a fundamentalist Christian I'm like, Danielle, just slow your role. Just slow your role. Cuz that's kind of where I am right now.
Krispin: I was gonna say…
Jessie: Yeah, you’re not gonna get a word in…
Krispin: somebody's gotta bring DC talk into this conversation. But it's like, I was looking at the lyrics and I was, I was like, oh my gosh, I want to talk to Jessie about this because it's just this mis mishmash of like all the evangelical things of like, you're at war with the world, you're at war with yourself, you're addicted to God, but like, you don't love God enough.
Uh, you're totally broken and like you have to pick up your daily cross. Like, I think about that as someone who's hyperreligious takes it really seriously, has ocd or has those OCDD tendencies. Like this is like exactly where you live. And like this song by DC talk is just like, yes, this is where you're supposed to live.
This is what it's supposed to be like all the time. Is like, it is so serious. And I, I, I think like some of it is like, it's almost like sometimes people will tell us, like, watch a movie that. Is like, like everything everywhere all at once. That's like very significant, like existential wise.
Jessie: So good
Krispin: Danielle's like, “I don't need to watch it.”
Danielle: Like that is like how I live my life at all times my life. And
Krispin: I think it's the same thing with this Christian music. Like the people, like, I think they were trying to do something where they're trying to like get the mediocre, like teenagers to like really commit their life to God. But really what ended up happening is like the people that were already really serious about it or like, this is our anthem. Like, we're just gonna take this on.
Jessie: Well, yeah, when you ask, you said you, I can't remember exactly how you phrased it, but how does this remind you of, you know, your Christian, uh, worldview And I thought, well, the first thing is the really bad lyricism, like the horrible,
Krispin: ha,
Jessie: horrible cringy lyrics. I mean, I have so many good stories, y'all. I was in a Christian, a church band, and we covered secular songs, but we changed the words so, We had, we changed the words to the wall.
Um, we don't need no psychic hotline. , we don't need no crystal balls. , we've, we've got Jesus and our hearts. Now, Satan, leave those kids alone.
Danielle: oh my God.
Jessie: “Hey Satan, leave those kids alone!” So, yeah, like there was so much, I just, you know, when you look at a lot of Christian art and. It's so bad. And not to make a sweeping generalization, but I'm gonna make a sweeping generalization and I, I've, I dunno who I heard talking about this, but you know, when you make art that has such an agenda that is so agenda driven, it's typically not good art.
Cause it comes from place of, uh, of an agenda. And I see that, I mean, I so relate to what you're saying, Danielle, because I have, and something my therapist has been working with me a lot on is that I was bored in the fires of evangelicalism and I'm an evangelist and I'm gonna be an evangelist
Danielle: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
Jessie: for whatever thing I think is the cure for everybody else.
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Jessie: I actually don't know what's best for everybody. Ah, what Shocking.
Danielle: I know, I know, right?
Jessie: And I, I don't even know what's best for myself. I'm learning to listen to myself. I'm learning to listen to those, to my body, to my gut. I didn't even know I had a gut and that that was a thing I could listen to
Danielle: Yeah,
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Jessie: that as I, I, and I think a big part of that is learning to take the pressure off of myself. That I have to save everybody, whatever that means, and that I have to fight the good fight and that I might not know what the good fight is. I can do the best I can. It's not gonna be perfect. I'm not gonna be pure. I'm not gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a little bit fucked up, and, you know, a little wabisabi.
I took a pottery class for the first time. I've been dreaming of taking a pottery class and finally had a personal retreat and took one. And, uh, it was such a beautiful metaphor for, um, my life, for this idea that I learned so much. First of all, pottery is so much harder than I realized. Pottery.
Krispin: Yeah.
Jessie: I was like, I'm, I'm creative.
I could just go in here and whip up some beautiful balls that I'll bring home and show off and say, oh, you guys, I made, I ended up with the trinket dish about an inch big we had to keep losing clay because I kept messing up and couldn't get it centered. And it's like these so much patience and these tiny little movements that seem almost imperceptible, that end up making this huge difference in your piece of pottery.
Uh, and, and one of the words that, that, which I'm sure this has, Discussed a ton, but it was new. It was new and big for me. Um, the pottery teacher talked about wabisabi pottery and, you know, it's that Japanese idea, um, aesthetic. That, and, and of course I should have already known about this with design, but it embraces imperfections.
Um, and it was so big for me as I thought about that performance.
Danielle: I hear some things in your story and even going into this song, which is called, so Help Me God is the first song on the album, Jesus Freak. And you're talking about perfectionism and something I don't think we talk about enough is how that is baked into fundamentalism. And they do want people, and again, I'm gonna say they especially want women to, uh, be all in on perfectionism, but the, the flip side of perfectionism is actually self-hatred, right?
And this knowledge, I can never, ever, ever, ever measure up. But I'm gonna try really hard and just thinking about how fundamentalism loves that, especially if it's in service to their institution or their cause. Um, they really want people to hate themselves. And I think this song really shows us that, right?
But we, it's so over spiritualized. Like you can sing this song and all that, and a lot of people, not a lot, I would say some people don't internalize all that. Shit. But again, some of us do, right? And if it happens to some of us, it's bad for all of us. That's just what I'm gonna say right there. And so I, I just kind of wondered, did you listen to DC talk [00:25:00] growing up?
Like was this on your radar or was that not really happening for you?
Jessie: I listened to DC talk. They were not one of my faves. I should have looked up who all my, I had, I listened to some DC talk. Of course you couldn't be a Christian in the nineties and
Danielle: yeah. Oh, you couldn't,
Jessie: mean, you were not a Christian if you didn't have some connection to DC talk. In fact, I was talking to my husband about this and, and we listened to part of the song together in the car.
And then he played for the, for our kids. Uh, one of the other DC talk songs that he said he was embarrassed, he loved, but Jesus freak, he was embarrassed about because of how much at the time, even because of how much it sounded like smells like Teen Spirit.
Danielle: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just a total rip off.
Jessie: I did not realize I had never made that connection.
And when he played it for me, I was like, I could not believe. Uh, but yeah, so I was DC talk light. Um, I liked some [00:26:00] others. I, there were some like, I had a very, uh, wide range of music styles that I liked, uh, from Christian Metal to all kinds of, uh, I I loved. Um, I loved water deep. I loved, uh, they, they seemed, you know, even in the early s Sarah Groves, um, Nicole Norman, of course CA's Call, um, they were, you
Danielle: Oh my gosh. You're giving me such flashbacks to like my, I was really into playing the Gym Bay. Remember when all like the white girls like myself played the African drums? It's so horrifying to think up. I was a gym girl
Jessie: Oh, I played the guitar. I, I, and I used and wrote, I wrote some of my own Christian music, which, you know, I can say nothing about these DC talks, talk lyrics because of how horrendous my lyrics were. Uh, but, and I used the [00:27:00] term play lightly. Like I knew like four chords, which was enough.
Danielle: That's all you need. That's all you
Jessie: And I led worship, I said, I was telling RET recently, I was like, I cannot believe I had the guts. I'm freaking out about this performance, and I'm not even playing the guitar. I have the guts. I would go lead worship at church on retreats with my four chords. I did that and I'm, I'm scared to go sing this song with you.
Um, but yeah, I, I feel you on that.
Krispin: this perfectionism thing, this song is like such a good example of like, I'm the chief of sinners. Like, I'm so broken. I need you to make me whole. There's this like acknowledgement of like, I'm broken, but there's still this perfectionistic standard. I think what you're like, what you're getting at is like you, you do have to accept that your sin and then hate yourself for it, right?
Like that's the way to deal with. And I think that can be so confusing because even in like progressive quote unquote [00:28:00] churches, right? Like they're like, yeah, you're welcome as you are. Like, you know, we want to see your messiness, et cetera, but it's like you have to hate the messiness, which is so different than what you're talking about with the pottery of like embracing
Danielle: the imperfection.
Mm-hmm.
Jessie: Right. There's so many mixed messages that are sent to people, and I think especially the, the level of cognitive dissonance that you have to have, you know, like I, we'll talk about hating ourselves and somebody who is still in that world or still believes those things to say, well, you didn't understand grace, and it's like, oh.
I understood grace. I mean, I gotta call bullshit. I can lead you down the Romans road. I understand that we are saved by grace through faith. It is not of our own. It's a gift of godless. Anyone should boast. I mean, I, you know, I get it. [00:29:00] And we are the chief of sinners. There is no good. There is none good. No, not one.
All of our righteousness is as filthy rags. And part of this comes from, you know, us when you look at, as I learn more about the Bible and looking at the Bible in a different way than I did, you know, theology tries to squish it all together and make it all make sense so that we can have this neat, clean, uh, set of rules that we can give people.
And that's not, that's not how it was written. A bunch of these guys didn't even know each other and they were just trying to figure out God. know, and, and so when you say you're the chief of centers, you're totally depraved you. It's, it's all undeserved grace. It's all whatever. And then, and then you get this opposite thing.
You're made in God's image. You are chosen, you are, it's, it's, I mean, I'm not [00:30:00] a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And you know, it's interesting because my oldest kid started questioning when he was about seven. And without really knowing that we were questioning, which was so much fun, , because I, and we had just moved, you know, we had moved across the country, um, and we were still going, found a church right away.
Started going, we're doing everything we could to hold on. My husband was further down that. Path. And I was at that point, but I had always had these questions always. You know, when we first got married, he and I would walk around. I was still in college because if we wanted to have sex, we had to get married and we wanted to have sex.
And so we were both virgins because we were gonna do it the right way. So that means you get married at 20 and 23. [00:31:00] Uh, so we did
Krispin: 21
Danielle: 23.
Jessie: ok. Ok. Oh, beat you, Um, and we would walk around. My little chap, I went to UNC walk around Chapel Hill, and depending on who was doubting or struggling, , we would have these proofs that we came up with for the other person. So if, if I was the one that day really, and hell tended to be my thing a lot, like I would kind of fixate on hell.
For some reason. He, while he was incredibly uncomfortable with it and didn't really want, you know, to believe it, it was for some reason you, I tend to be the more empathetic one. Honestly, . So I'm not saying he was for hell, but we had less issues believed in it. I it would up at night and [00:32:00] for, it might be these, these, these facts.
The geology, you know, I'm looking at these, uh, I'm reading this book and it doesn't, I'm reading this book from Institute of Creation Research from or from Ken Ham, and then I'm reading this. College level geology book and like one of them seems to not be telling the whole story and it's not the textbook
Danielle: Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Jessie: So, uh, you know, I'd always had, we had, had doubts in different ways, struggles in different ways. But one of the questions to bring it back to the song you asked me was the difference if I, I, I think the difference in losing your faith or your faith being taken from you. Can you explain that question a little bit more?
Cuz I think this relates to it,
Krispin: Well, yeah, it's, it's interesting cuz the, the song talks about like, help me God, to put my faith in you, right? So that I can like, hold onto this faith. And so I wonder for you, did it feel like I'm [00:33:00] losing my faith and trying to hold onto it? Or is it like I'm trying to get out of here and I can't, like escape
Jessie: I think it definitely felt like I was losing it and trying to hold onto it once we started the process in earnest.
Danielle: Yeah.
Jessie: allowing ourselves to look at, to, to ask the questions and really ask the questions. To ask the questions and not come to the question with an answer already formed. That was, that made me comfortable because there was no easy, that, that's a thing that people, you know, with deconstruction that, uh, people have said, people have lobbed at us.
Oh, you did this cuz it was cool, you did it cuz it was, you know, you moved to LA and it was easy. And, uh, it was what everybody around you was doing. And this is, it is the most harrowing, uh, soul , [00:34:00] ripping process. You know, I would lay in bed and just cry in bed. God, like, where are you? Where are you? God,
Krispin: Hmm.
Jessie: just feeling like I had been completely abandoned by God.
Uh, and so, but an interesting thing is that I never, before RET really started questioning in earnest and allowing himself to, to, to, to let the question, to let the questions answer themselves, to unfold, to seek the real answers instead of the answers that could allow us to stay in, in the place that we were.
Uh, I never saw myself as somebody who would walk away. Uh, like if you had , if you had put, you know, they would say, we would have these chapel speakers who would say one and however many is gonna [00:35:00] stay. And so, you know, in 10 years, four of you will no longer, four out of five will no longer be Christians.
Whatever it was, I was always gonna be the one that.
Danielle: Oh yeah. Oh
Jessie: Not staying was never an option. It wasn't a thought. It wasn't a, you know, this was not something I had been planning Uh, and so looking back now, I just think about how courageous my husband was. Um, and I feel so grateful. Uh, cuz sometimes we'll just look at each other and say, we got out.
Danielle: Hmm
Jessie: it feels like we came out of, of, in some ways a cult.
Danielle: Yeah. No, you should say that. I think we should be saying that louder, you
Jessie: It's, and it's hard to say because I, that's so hurtful to so many people that I love and I don't wanna [00:36:00] hurt the people that I love. And I also know everybody's process is different. My process was different from my husband's. I'm. While there's similarities, you know, my process is different and from what y'all have experienced and people end up in different places, and you may end up in a similar place just with slightly different views on things, but it is this idea that we could actually choose for ourselves.
And I think I, there was this myth that I had chosen Jesus, but telling a kid that you believe this or you burn in hell is not
Danielle: Oh my God. It's not choosing Jessie. That's it. Exactly.
Jessie: And you know, but it took me until it took me, until I was an adult and could step back and, and ask these, really, ask these questions [00:37:00] that I could choose. And so, I am just sometimes in awe of his ability to make to, to he cares a lot about truth and for him, and there's some truths we won't know. That's the thing that I think is so funny, that like we have these such strong opinions about where you go when you die, which is something nobody can know.
We actually can't know.
Krispin: know,
Danielle: I know, I know. Mm-hmm. , it's, it's, it's wild to think about how much we bought into all this. And I just, I just wanna say one thing really quick, which is this line that really stood out to me from the song is it says, call it my addiction. I can't get enough of you. You know, so help me, God, to put my faith in you.
And I, I, I wonder if you have any thoughts on this, like, addiction piece. Like why, um, or just [00:38:00] the, the varying ways like hype, being a hyperreligious person or being all in is actually like a coping mechanism and it has some similarities to addiction, because that's something I was. Nobody ever told me that until I was in therapy.
Right. Which is like being hyperreligious is a trauma response. It also can be like for emotionally immature people, narcissistic people being hyperreligious can be one way, you know, they have like an approved addiction, right. In our society. I, I don't know if that's something you've thought about at all, but it does go to what everything you've been saying, right.
I've just been researching high control religion, how it indoctrinates children, how devastating childhood fundamentalist indoctrination is. Um, and you know, the reason why I think it's important, we say it's at least cult-like, is because. That'll help more people to say, oh, actually the impacts of this are really long lasting and could be impacting me now.
And it is. The reason why we don't talk about is cuz we all know people in the cult, [00:39:00] right? So that's why evangelicalism and conservative Christianity is not considered a cult. It's just because we know too many people in it. Therefore we can't say that out loud. But, um, yeah. So I just wondered if you had any thoughts on that addiction piece or hyper religiosity or any, any of that.
Jessie: Well, yeah, I think especially now looking back at the lens of my childhood and my, my personality and, you know, seeing this o c D for as o c d for what it was when, at the time I didn't, I, it is like being in this, uh, relationship with someone where your compulsions are encouraged.
Danielle: Yes.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Jessie: so it would be like, oh, you have a hand washing problem every time you wash your hands.
Somebody says, good job. That's right. Do it again. Oh, they're not bleeding quite enough. They're not quite, quite, no. I think, oh, maybe there might still be some germs in between your ring finger [00:40:00] and you know, that is what, being a person with O C D in a religious, in a fundamentalist environment's like
Danielle: Oh my gosh, that is
Krispin: the
Danielle: perfect picture. That is like so validating but heartbreaking because I've never heard anybody describe it like that. But even thinking about this song, so help me God, if you're a person with religious scrupulosity or even like existential O c d or any of these things, like listening to this song, it just feeds these intrusive thoughts.
And um, oh that was just, that was a really powerful analogy cuz again, I think our culture understands, oh, when you have O C D you wash your hands a lot. And that's true, that is a true thing. But what about these internal, ethical, moral, existential religious compulsions and it's like, yeah, they're fed by fundamentalism.
Yeah. Yeah. I would
Krispin: would love to hear, [00:41:00] uh, therapy for you and like how that's been helpful.
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Jessie: my gosh. I am just such a therapy fan and hype girl. Therapy hype girl. Uh, I started, I had been to therapy a few times. I went, when I finally got diagnosed with ocd, it was my freshman year in college. And I, I didn't remember until recently my mom said that I, for the first time, I articulated some thoughts of wanting to die.
Uh, and she said, we gotta figure out whatever this is. And just so, such huge props to my mom for. Getting me to a therapist and getting me diagnosed. I was 19 and went on antidepressants. Uh, and I thought, oh, is this how normal people feel? Is this what normal people go around? Like feeling like this not [00:42:00] obsessing over every little thing, although I still, as you know, somebody with ocd, like probably never be completely gone, but it gets louder and quieter depending on where you are with it and what interventions you're using.
And that was my first taste of relief. Uh, but you know, at that point I was still in, obviously deep in evangelicalism. We hadn't even gone on staff with that Christian organization yet. Um, And so I went a few times to therapy after that, but it was not a consistent part of my life. And it wasn't until about, um, six, six or seven years ago, uh, with my, my youngest, um, is a really, really incredible human.
And I had no idea how to parent him. Uh, and I kept [00:43:00] feeling like there were, there was something I was missing and I didn't know what it was, you know, and things that I thought should work with him, did not work with him . And so I finally had this wonderful friend who had incredible. Into kids and had gone through things with her own kids.
And she said, I have this, I call it her in desperation. And she said, I have this therapist who's great. So I called this therapist and I said, uh, hi, yes, um, I got your name and for my, my friend and I just, my kid needs therapy . Cause I don't know what's going on with him. He said, okay, why don't you come in?
And my kid laughs at this story, fyi, he knows that I tell this story and he thinks it's hilarious. So, uh, so he said, why don't you come in and we'll we'll talk, you can tell me what's going on with your kid and then we'll go, go from there. And I was like, okay, great. So I go [00:44:00] in, uh, I start talking as I do y'all see I don't have a problem talking and about an in.
He says, okay, well, I want you to come back next week, uh, and I don't want you to bring your kid and we need to do a session and a half every week with you,
Krispin: Yeah. Ha.
Jessie: So that was humbling. And I think deep down I knew that I had a lot to work through and a lot that I had been, that needed to be addressed. And I went to therapy every week for about five or six years.
I had a short stint where I got really mad at my therapist, which I hear happens . So I told him I needed to take a break, . So I took a break for about three months and then of course came crawling back. And you know, I'm always like, [00:45:00] you were right. I was mad. I couldn't take it. I wasn't ready to hear it.
Whatever. Uh, And yeah, I did not. It's so interesting how you, with therapy, you start on these, they see what you, a good therapist. And that is the other thing, you know, I had such a, the gift of getting this incredible therapist my first try, and that does not happen for everybody. And so I do think it is worth it to keep trying if you don't have that therapist that is right for you.
Um, because finding the right therapist is such a gift and is life changing. And I just, you know, can't, I can't say enough about what therapy has done for my marriage, for parenting, for the way I view the world. Uh, and just the layers and layers and layers of spiritual trauma that we keep [00:46:00]uncovering and keep finding.
And I think.
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Jessie: Last year he said, Hey Jesse, I think we can go to twice a month. And we had a moment, you know, where we both kind of got teary eyed. Uh, but it felt right. And sometimes now I'll go, I'm too busy. I may go a month or three weeks without talking to him. And I've got the tools, um, in a way that I didn't before.
And I think there's also that grief over all the time you spent without those tools. You know, I think the only tools I had were, um, very, very confusing Bible versus for a huge part of my
Danielle: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Jessie: So having like very practical tools that change my life. Every [00:47:00] day in my interactions, my and I, and, and there is, I, I still experience grace in a way that I can't is indescribable.
And I, you know, I don't have to name it like I used to have to name it at experience, like, man, the fruits of the spirit, like, or where it's at. I'm still all about the fruits of the spirit.
Danielle: Hmm
Jessie: love, joy, patience, peace, goodness, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control. And when I see those things, I'm like, the, the spirit of God is here. And I don't even really know what that means in the way that I would've, like if you asked me for a definition of the spirit of God,
I don't have it.[00:48:00]
Danielle: I
Krispin: was thinking about as you listed those things, how nonexistent those are for so many of us that are in that religious system.
Danielle: The fruits of the spirit. Well, I mean that's when you talk about all you had were these very confusing verses as your tools. Like I really related to that. And then part of my story is just like feeling like I was losing my mind, being surrounded by people who said they wanted to love Jesus, be a Jesus freak.
And they hated Muslims. They worship police officers. They, I just, I just feel like the past 10 years I've just been completely in shock, you know? And a part of me wishes I was a more cynical person or whatever, but I wasn't. And so I, again, I was listening to Jesus Freak. I thought we were Jesus freaks.
But looking at this song and all the other songs on this album, there's nothing about those fruits of the spirit. Love, [00:49:00] joy, peace, patience, ju no. It's just this, get in this abusive relationship with this religion. You must proselytize at all times to people without ever engaging with the actual ethics of Jesus, or parts of scripture that, you know, relate on a more humanist level.
And so, Just the cognitive dissonance of growing up like we did is so strong. And also, I wanna say, I also started therapy the first time this year because of my child And look at me now. Decon converting what's happening.
Jessie: well
Danielle: get us. That's how they get us Last
Krispin: episode about how James Dobson did not want anyone to go to
Danielle: Yes. And
Krispin: he was right. Dr.
Danielle: was right. It's a slippery slope when you go to a
Jessie: reading books and going to therapy. Those are slippery slaps,
Danielle: reading non Bob Jones books is a slippery slope. For sure. For sure.
Jessie: right.
Krispin: yeah.
Danielle: Oh [00:50:00] my gosh, Jesse, I feel like we could literally talk to you forever. I just wanna say, you know, from, from Jesus freak to therapy freak. Um, you know, I think that's a, I think that's a good transition, you know, to make at this point in our lives. Um, I just wanted to give you a chance, if there's anything else you wanted to say, you know, about this, the sort of era of Jesus freaks and, and what it's like to be you now. Um, yeah.
Jessie: I just, well, thank y'all so much for having, this has been such a joy to talk. I feel like. Yes. We could talk for hours. You said something and it, something I've been thinking about a lot lately is seeing people as humans, as souls in a way that I would've said that I did before. And I couldn't
Danielle: Yeah.
Jessie: I didn't.
And something I'm still working on, like I [00:51:00] am, I am like a naturally more empathetic, like generally empathetic person. And yet I know I spent so much of my life seeing people as targets or problems I needed to fix.
Danielle: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Jessie: especially my husband and I talk a lot about polarization and I, uh, Get angry because I still think, well now I'm on the right side, just like I thought before I was on the right side.
And so I'm like, well, we have polarization for a reason because we're right the wrong. And mean, it's not that helpful really. And so in general, I just, I'm really trying to figure out what is in me that wants to see people as their issues or their beliefs instead of them as a person. Because I wanna be seen as a person.
[00:52:00] I wanna be not seen as somebody who, oh, well she used to be a Christian. Look at her. Now she's fallen off or she's whatever. Uh, or I, I wanna just, as my therapist tells me about my kids, he's like, you hold 'em in the light and you believe the best and.
Danielle: Hmm.
Jessie: I think about that so much cuz that's what I want people to do for me.
I want 'em to believe the best and to hold me in the light and to see me as a human, just like them deserving of love and goodness.
Krispin: Hmm.
Danielle: Uh, well, I love that so much. And I just wanna put a, a quick, you know, second plugin for, um, human Overboard, right? The Project of James and the Shame and You, you sing on one of the songs that's so beautiful and actually just, you know, me and Chris would relate to that song so much. Um,
Jessie: I sing, I sing on two other songs [00:53:00] on there. I do,
Danielle: do you? Which, which ones?
Jessie: to our kids that I sing on and uh, I sing on. There's a song called Kill A Man that I got to do some of my opera on for fun. It's like a spaghetti western. It's ridiculous. And so that was,
Danielle: I feel, I feel like I just have only listened to like the singles and like give a damn is like me to a t. Uh, so that's, uh, really gets me in the feels and I will say it seems like it's just the perfect pallet cleanser to Jesus freak in a way, because I don't know if this is the right way to say it.
Deeply humanist album, right? How do we view each other as humans? How do we view ourselves as humans? Because if you grew up a Jesus freak, you can't be human, you have to be perfect. You have to be like Jesus at all times, blah, blah, blah. So if people are listening and they, if people are like even re-listing to the album Jesus Freak and getting triggered, I'm just like, go listen to Humid [00:54:00]Overboard.
Um, use it as a pallet cleanser. And, um, I just also wondered if you wanna tell people where else they can find you and what, what you're up to. I know you're
Jessie: Oh, sure. Yes. Oh, I am very grateful to have started this interior design career about three or four years ago. And so yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Jesse Lane Interiors, uh, and TikTok, I just started dipping my toe in there. So it's, that's, I mean, I'm a mom. I'm an old mom on TikTok. That's what I am. Trying so hard not to embarrass my kids. That is like the what I do. And then my favorite place, Twitter at Los Angeles is my name there, my tag, my whatever that's called . So yeah, this has been so fun.
Krispin: Thank you so much. We just are, are so grateful for you sharing your story because these are just stories that don't get [00:55:00] told
Danielle: very much. No. And um,
Krispin: so we really appreciate your vulnerability. Um, um, and just so glad to connect with you.
Jessie: Thank
Danielle: Thank you so
Jessie: so much. I hope we see each other again soon. One way or another,[00:56:00] [00:57:00][00:58:00] [00:59:00]
