Mulling Over the Ethical Implications of Various Soups
DL and Krispin talk about S1 E10 titled “Chidi’s Choice.” We talk about our romantic lives as teenagers and young adults. We also talk more about ethical OCD, and how impactful (and un-detected) it can be.
Krispin mentions the TV show Task Master
DL mentions Good Christian Fun
You can learn about ethical soups here.
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TRANSCRIPT
Krispin: [00:00:00] Welcome to This is the Bad Place, a podcast about the NBC TV show, The Good Place, and the journey of two ex evangelicals leaving white evangelicalism.
DL: Hello, everyone. Welcome to This is the Bad Place, a Good Place recap podcast with us, you know, two people that maybe identify a little too much with characters from the show, The Good Place.
Krispin: Yeah, today is called Chidi's
DL: Choice. It's episode 10 of season one.
Krispin: Mm hmm. And I was just like, yeah, this is DL's episode.
DL: really?
Krispin: Yeah. I mean, you know, just 'cause….
DL: right I'll tell you right now because you're starting to look panicked But you thought right?
Krispin: yes. Yeah. No, I….
DL: But you explain to me in front of my face why this is…
Krispin: this is how you've, this is how you've lived. You have lived a lot of your life. Like Chidi…
DL: huh, which means I'm a ball of fun, you know, I mean like, I'm just a really chill hang
Krispin: I mean, yeah. I, uh. I was gonna say I relate to Eleanor when she says “you're a buzzkill, but I don't want to leave you.” But actually you're not you guys don't understand. I feel like most of the world does not understand that. DL is really fun to be married to has an amazing sense of humor and we switch back and forth between talking about really intense things and then Laughing about things and then [00:01:00] sometimes crying, both of us. That's sort of a summary of our relationship.
DL: I'm fun, but mentally ill. I agree. I agree. And we'll get into some of that stuff, uh, later on. Later on in this episode. Okay, so, uh, before we jump into Episode 10, Chidi's Choice, uh, I just want to say I'm so glad we picked this show to recap. There's so much going on in the world. It's, this show holds up seven years later.
I'm enjoying myself. Hopefully the listeners are too. Um, and what? We only have three more episodes after this? And then season one. And then season one's over. Okay? So hang in there. Hang tight. And listeners, don't forget to send us your questions, concerns, comments, because we love those.
Krispin: love those.
DL: Okay, so now, we need to do a synopsis, so we're gonna, uh, listen to Mark Evan Jackson take it away.
Mark Evan Jackson: I'm Mark Evan Jackson. I play Sean. Today we're talking about Season 1, Episode 10, [00:02:00] Chidi's Choice. To recap, both Eleanor and Tahani declare their love for Chidi, and then spend the day together trying to avoid the cliches of rivalry in a love triangle. Michael tries to help Chidi make a romantic decision, while they are preparing Eleanor's defense for Sean.
Meanwhile, Jason and Janet decide... To get married. Okay, that was a pretty good summary. There's a little bit more back and forth on the love triangle thing. there's a lot of flashbacks of Chidi. yeah, like having to pick teams in school and like taking up the whole recess because he can't choose.
Yeah, Chidi as a child was adorable. Right? Going out to dinner with his friend. Mm-Hmm. and mulling over the ethical implications of various soups. Yeah. Totally. Highly relatable stuff. So, yeah, I think that is a pretty good summary. I, okay. Maybe we should just jump right ahead to watch slash rewatch. Mm-Hmm.
do you remember when you first watched this episode, because I'm just gonna jump ahead a little bit and say. On the [00:03:00] rewatch with the title being Chidi's Choice, I was sort of hoping for like a bigger ethical dilemma besides just soulmate. I was a little disappointed because I had forgotten it was just about the soulmate thing.
So anywho!
Krispin: Yeah. So I'll start with what I remember first, which was trying to figure out this whole system and yeah, that question, one of the things that comes up is like, okay, are, because Jason and Eleanor are both fakes, right? Are they supposed to be soulmates?
I mean, and this just resonated a lot with me as a child and teenager. I was always trying to figure out who my soulmate was.
DL: you were!
Krispin: Um, and so, and, and, so, yeah, my brain was like, working that way, like, yeah, how, you know, how do they fit together? We, you know, in past episodes, Tahani and Chidi have had some sort of chemistry that, you know, makes you think like, oh, they could get together.
But on the rewatch what I realized is basically the episode starts off saying This is the time to figure out [00:04:00] how we're going to present Eleanor's case to Sean the judge, right? How do we how are we going to keep Eleanor here? And then the whole episode is about love triangles and nothing about actually helping Eleanor not go to the bad place
DL: so to me, you know, we’re jumping ahead a little bit, there's not a real ethical... Question here with the soulmate thing because I don't think there is I okay So when I first watched it I think obviously you do get caught up in all the love triangleness and you're just trying to keep up because it keeps changing Because Eleanor is like “I'm in love with Jian-yu then actually I think I just love you like a friend, and then….
Krispin: “I’m in love with Jian-yu, and actually,”
DL: For a hot minute
Krispin: “I love you like a friend, you know?” like, “no.”
DL: watch around by far the biggest takeaway of this episode for me was, did Jason just marry a…
Krispin: robot.
DL: Yes. Honestly, without watching the rest of the show, you're just like, that seems odd.
Krispin: then…Jason and Jana become like one of the best parts of the show.
DL: you know, on the rewatch, I'm just like, yay, they got together, I love them! Favorite couple, you know? Yes.
Krispin: It is so weird. Yeah, I think the other thing about the rewatch, I did not pick up on all the bi vibes from Eleanor the first time around.
DL: so true. There's so much. So like, okay. You explain it first.
Krispin: Well, I mean, you know, all along, Eleanor is complimenting Tahani, but also Kristen Bell's Eleanor is talking to real Eleanor. And, uh, Real Eleanor is like, you know, Do you want to make any confessions of love? And Eleanor's like, are you coming on to me? I would make out with someone with my same name.
That's sort of a narcissistic fantasy. So, stuff like that.
DL: Yeah, I mean, I know that I'm not like the best judge [00:06:00] of chemistry, and I totally understand that, to me, the weird thing about this episode is I don't think anybody has chemistry. Like, I don't think
Krispin: Except that last scene with Janet and Jason.
DL: No! I don't think they have chemistry either. I don't. The only people who have chemistry are Kristen Bell and Jameela
Krispin: Jameela
DL: You know what I'm
Krispin: mm hmm,
DL: And so I just, I don't sense... In any of the other relationships, except when those two are together. There's definitely bi things happening between them, too.
So, yeah, that's what I noticed on the rewatch.
Krispin: As
DL: As well, um, I noticed some other things on the rewatch, but I think I'm going to save them for the ethical part of the show. Um, yeah, I think there's a lot of favorite things to be said about this episode.
Krispin: know I feel like we should have like a competition where if we pick [00:07:00] the same parts, we lose points. No, I'm just kidding. I don't know that's
DL: have to take
Krispin: that's too intricate.
DL: okay so you have to start with your favorite one i guess
Krispin: Okay, well, I'm going to start at the top of my list. Okay, no, actually, I'm going to start with my favorite one. My favorite one was when Eleanor confesses her love to Chidi. And she says, even though you're such a buzzkill, somehow, I never want to leave you. And it feels so much like Pride and Prejudice.
DL: Interesting.
You
Krispin: know, in that, like, even though you're like, I find you, you know. What's that famous line?
DL: oh yeah. So like Eleanor's insulting him
Krispin: Right,
DL: Exactly. As she's declaring. So it's very Mr. Darcy. Yes,
Krispin: exactly. Which I,
DL: in our circumstances or something like
Krispin: exactly. Despite there should be no reason for me to love you. I love you. Um, and it made me think about being a teenager and writing confessions of love like that in my journal to girls I had crushes on.
Anyway, it [00:08:00] just took me down a little memory lane. Well, that's funny, because my number one favorite thing is also
DL: A declaration of love and that is Jason's vows. I'm going to read them to you right
Krispin: right now. Okay.
DL: Janet, my digital queen. Janet, we can dare to dream. Send nude pics of your heart to me. Jacksonville Jaguars rule!
Krispin: rule!
DL: Those were his vows and that was my favorite.
Krispin: then, then he says, Uh, can I kiss you or am I going to get electrocuted?
DL: your next favorite thing?
Krispin: Um, my next favorite thing was, um, when Tahani is sad, she watches her favorite BBC show called Deidre and
DL: Oh man, this is on my list. And
Krispin: It ran on BBC for 16 years and had nearly 30
DL: episodes. Okay.
Krispin: which was a good joke.
DL: such a good joke.
Krispin: And, like, it was, it's about this, like, high class woman and this low class woman, and the low class woman just keeps on saying, In it?
Over and [00:09:00] over, like, It's the pe I don't know, like, it's the bread, innit? Um,
DL: It's pretty good. Yes. Pretty, pretty good. Okay, so that was my fa That was one of my favorite parts too because to me it seemed like such a sl Such a, like, slam on British sitcoms that are always making fun of, like, poor, working class white people.
Krispin: And,
DL: like, The upper crust, you know, and why Tahani likes it so much plus the joke about how British shows Just only do so few episodes I was like, this is a slam dunk like the whole the whole thing is a slam dunk
Krispin: And if we look at just that whole section, they're having sort of like girl time. And so Eleanor is helping Tahani put in extensions.
And she says like, Oh, I had to learn how to look older when I was young. Cause I had to get a job early, which I just thought was interesting. That was,
DL: poignant and very
Krispin: yeah, right. Like I really, that [00:10:00] was on my favorite things list, not in a funny way, but like, it just really highlights. And then you see that in the same section when they're watching this.
It's a British TV show that's making fun of class differences, which I just thought was brilliant.
DL: brilliant. Yeah, uh, that was also on my list.
Krispin: list. I'm sorry. Okay.
DL: wrote down, Eleanor Tragic Backstory Through Hair Extensions. And I'm like, yeah, that's a really interesting way to do that.
Krispin: okay. What else
DL: Um, okay,
Krispin: Okay. Well,
DL: Okay, well,
Krispin: the name Bomba
DL: I really like the name Bombajohn. And, that's his, the actor's real name.
Krispin: name. That's so great.
DL: I love that. I also love Ugly Nick's Meat Trench as the name of the restaurant where Jason gets jalapeno poppers from Janet, which makes him propose to Janet.
Krispin: the sentence before, which is that Stupid
DL: Stupid
Krispin: closed down because a pelican fell in the deep fryer.
DL: Oh my gosh. So many Florida things. So many [00:11:00] Florida things. Okay, so we gotta move on unless you have something else.
Krispin: else. Yes! I also like that Tahani's confession of love, which Eleanor points out, is not actually a confession of love. She says, I'm just a girl towering in front of a boy, asking him to admit he loves me.
Which is just so Tahani.
DL: Eleanor points that out. Like, technically, I confessed my love to Jeannie, and you demanded he confess his love for you. But, you
Krispin: So great.
DL: great. Oh! There's
Krispin: little things that are just, you know. Okay, wait, one more thing. Okay. Uh, starts off the episode. And, uh, and Tahani's asking Jason, like, who are you? And he just immediately starts listing off his favorite Fast and the Furious movies in order of preference, right?
DL: yeah. Yeah, okay, well that was one of my fun facts.
Krispin: Is that
DL: Is that neither you nor I have ever watched a Fast and the Furious movie.
Krispin: Oh, you didn't know me in middle [00:12:00] school. I don't, I've not watched one since I've known you. When did the first
DL: one come out? I am shook.
Krispin: Is our relationship over?
DL: Crispen?
Krispin: You didn't know this about me?
DL: No.
Krispin: I gotta find out when the first one came out.
DL: many have you watched? 2, 7, 1.
Krispin: was... No,
DL: No you weren't.
Krispin: you're right. I was 14 years old. Can't hold that against me. I don't know if that's really true. I think yes, I was
DL: How many have you watched one? Oh, just the first?
Yeah. Okay, well that doesn't count then! That's what I said! I feel like, I feel like if you don't go on to watch others in the franchise, it doesn't count. And I
Krispin: always got that 60 seconds confused because we watched both of those, you
DL: know. Who's we? Who's we? Middle school
Krispin: school friends.
DL: I feel like
Krispin: Yeah,
DL: met you. You know? Uh huh. Because this is
Krispin: Uh huh. I mean this was [00:13:00] actually, it was when I was like 14 or 15. I was like, I don't watch movies. I went through a phase where I was like, I just don't watch movies. I like read or I listen to music or whatever. Right,
DL: exactly. Except
Krispin: I watched the Pride and Prejudice BBC over and over again.
DL: huh.
Krispin: So we really
DL: see Now
Krispin: know i'm like we really We really see like crispin emerging from middle school trying to be cool with my friends to Crispin just being crispin
DL: Crispin being Crispin is where it's at.
Krispin: is where it's at, so. Did you make me watch that movie? I
DL: you make me watch that movie? I
Krispin: Walk to Remember. Let me tell you.
DL: was horrified by a walk to remember. Let me tell you, and I could tell you were very into the music.
Krispin: Oh, right, Switchfoot. I mean, I totally [00:14:00] had a crush on Mandy Moore.
DL: my hand
Krispin: I mean, that
DL: That takes
Krispin: that takes me back to listening to that on my Discman all the time.
DL: made me watch that movie and I found it horrifying. But, really quick, explain to me what Fast and Furious is about, the first one.
Krispin: It's where they have to seal a bunch of cars, like, in one night. No, actually,
DL: For what? For why? That's
Krispin: I think that's the plot line of Gone in 60 Seconds.
DL: about family!
Krispin: Yeah, I don't remember
DL: here, you're family.
Krispin: Yes, I mean, I only know that from the Universal Studios
DL: Tour which you just went on, and so you saw the set of The Good
Krispin: Uh huh, I did, yes.
DL: But all you care to talk about is the Fast and Furious part of the Universal Studios Tram Ride.
Krispin: I love that out of all of Universal Studios.
DL: Okay.
Krispin: My 8 year old niece, her favorite part was the Fast and Furious [00:15:00] part of the studio tour. But I did go on the set. I tried to get pictures, I was on the wrong side of the tram. Which is very sad, but it was wonderful to be there.
DL: I would have hopped off.
Krispin: Be on the set.
Just
DL: Okay. Okay!
Krispin: Stop talking
DL: Stop talking about Fast and Furious. You have been talking so much about Fast and Furious
Krispin: to Pride and Prejudice. We went to a walk to remember.
DL: Okay, so, this is the bad place. What were some of the big picture issues or ethical concerns that you, that you saw in this episode?
Krispin: Well, it's interesting because the question that comes up for me is...
Like, Chidi obviously worries about the most ethical thing, and we even see this in childhood. But he also just seems generally indecisive. Is it always about ethics for him? I'm not sure. But what I thought was really striking is [00:16:00] that Um, growing up in a fundamentalist religion, religious community, you did have a lot of these thoughts, but it was thoughts about like, is this the right thing that God wants me to
DL: totally.
Krispin: which is actually the opposite of cheating, which is like, what?
Implications will this have let me think through it now. They both have this scrupulosity to it You still get stuck, but I just thought that was like interesting. Like I never was thinking about like, what are the implications? It was always like does god want me to do this or not?
DL: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you're not just somebody who loves Fast and Furious, you're also a therapist and not like you specialize in OCD or Scrupulosity or anything like that, but do you wanna just sort of say what Moral Scrupulosity is really quick?
Krispin: Um, I mean, I, I would say like moral scrupulosity is, um, when you have a concern about doing the right thing that causes you a lot of anxiety. Yeah. [00:17:00] Or like anxiety, you know, most days of the week.
DL: Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's an interesting thing to talk about because both you and I grew up in white evangelicalism, which is like a high control religion, and we're taught that there is like one, way to be a good person and one way to be in God's will.
And that was taught, and that was taught to us over and over and over again. And so you're always trying to align yourself with God's will, with what the Bible says, with what your parents believe, with what your church says, with what your Bible college says. Like, can't remember a time in my life where I wasn't working very, very hard in my mind to Be a good person under the very explicit rules given to me.
Krispin: Now for you, was it about following the rules or was it being in God's will?
DL: one and the same.
Krispin: Okay, because for me, it was definitely like being in God's will in the sense like God had a specific idea of how my life should go. So when Michael and Chidi are talking and Michael's like, you made this bad decision, therefore it's [00:18:00] messed up everything.
I was like, I remember having that feeling.
DL: Yeah. And so I think. I think that moral scrupulosity is something that is starting to get talked about more. Sometimes it's called religious OCD or ethical OCD. And so when I watch this episode, I'm like, oh, Chidi has ethical OCD. Like that's so apparent, especially going back to childhood, right?
That's when we really see it. He's like, should I? Pick a girl or is that just pandering to gender politics like, you know He tries to pick the teacher just to get out
Krispin: get
DL: And I'm like that is so relatable right and then the ethical ramifications of soup Then like the soulmate thing plus he's had so many Ethical issues arise that cause him actual torment and even
Krispin: in this episode, Eleanor
DL: Eleanor says something about Chidi being tortured right
Krispin: by
DL: these ethical consideration.
So I think
Krispin: a
DL: of people deal with anxiety about if they're making the right decision or not. But there's a difference between that and being [00:19:00] like anguished and experiencing almost like torture like symptoms, including not being able to see yourself being happy or able to experience pleasure in the present or the future.
And You know, extreme cases of OCD, including ethical OCD, they do lead to shortened lifespans, like that amount of anxiety, you know, it's interesting in this episode, Chidi dies, supposedly from his ethical OCD, by just taking too long to decide where to eat, right?
Krispin: hmm.
DL: And gets hit on the head by an air conditioning unit.
But the sad truth is, right, people with
Krispin: OCD,
DL: like their lives are not only shortened By extreme stress this can place on your body and your mind and also, you know suicidal ideation but just like Being trapped in your own head all the time, like,
Krispin: is not really
DL: really living, you
Krispin: about that earlier, like, Chidi [00:20:00] is too in his head to have chemistry with anyone.
DL: chemistry with anyone.
Yes, exactly. Exactly. I mean, so, to me this is sort of like a tender episode because... I have had a really hard time coming to terms with the reality that I have ethica OCD
Krispin: OCD because I think for the
DL: I think for the first part of my life, I was like, I'm just a really amazing Christian. I'm an evangelical Christian who is communing with God in my head at all times.
And so for me, I just naturally made up the rules. And so even like, it's funny cause this episode's about soulmates.
Krispin: about soulmates. I
DL: made, I had these rules, right? Like I. I'm here to follow God.
Krispin: I'm willing
DL: be a missionary because everybody is going to hell and I can't. And so like I had these rules, like I can't ever look at anybody romantically because I have to move overseas and be a missionary.
Nobody's going to want to do that. And so I just made up these rules, right? Like, Nope, I can't even look at anyone to date [00:21:00] them. And that sounds like funny. And I've always told that as a funny story, but looking back, it's like, well, that's kind of sad. Like that really limited my. Able, you know, being able to engage with people on deeper levels and be vulnerable.
And, you know, I don't think any of my friends really had any clue about what was going on my head, like in high school, but I was definitely trapped in a lot of ethical OCD
Krispin: stuff. Then
DL: later on in my life, even as the Christianity thing started to kind of just fade a little bit, I then found another framework.
That would help me create a bunch of rules to help me know if I was a good person or not that I could check in with constantly and that was activism. and so I think those are two really common places where people with ethical OCD, like the OCD can like thrive without a ton of suspicion and Chidi kind of shows how that also is true in like
Krispin: Chidi kind of [00:22:00] shows how that also is true in like, philosophy as well.
And also evangelicalism. And I'm not saying that, you know, people will say like you have fundamentalists on both sides. I do not mean that at all. But what I think can happen is we have this, um, outsized idea of our importance in the world sometimes. I think in evangelicalism, it does. It feels like the decisions I make have these cosmic.
You know, uh, cosmic consequences.
DL: what we're told!
Krispin: right, exactly. And I think, you know, I think we think about environmentalism. It is really important that we are taking action. Also, one person taking action is not going to stop climate change. And so, like, how do you live in that tension and recognize, like, my decisions matter and they also don't [00:23:00] matter that much.
Like, and I don't know where that is, but. in ethical OCD, you're like, they matter so much that I need to anguish over it. And it's so hard because I think if you are that person, you also have some like, passionate ideals and values you do care about. So when other people are like, well, just let go don't care about it.
You're like, but that doesn't compute. I can't just not care about this. So it makes it really hard to recognize it. Like you said, it's like, well, I'm just someone that is like really Christian, or I really care about these values. And that might be true, but also how can you recognize like, but if I'm anguishing in my head all the time about it, like, maybe there's this value I have that is also connected to moral scrupulosity.
Yeah,
DL: Yeah. And I think that's why it was, it took me so long to come to terms with the fact that I had ethical OCD. 'cause I, I was like, I, it can't be that because this is like who I am. Mm-Hmm. . And so I felt like my therapist was sort of saying like, [00:24:00] everything I'm actually passionate about is just my brain.
Mm-Hmm. trying to hurt me and that. But instead, it's like, no, OCD just can latch onto the things you actually value and just spin it out into this this thing where you're trapped inside these thought ruminations. Um, and it's really a form of self harm, right? And so that's why people... Who develop OCD usually have some sort of trauma in their background or something like that, you know That it can just manifest as this anxiety that kind of harms you over and over again But if it's the inward kind of OCD,
Krispin: Mm hmm.
DL: all used to like the flicking the lightbulb
Krispin: Right. Mm hmm. Um, but
DL: things like ethical OCD moral scrupulosity, they really go under the radar for most people because It's inward and if you're in these certain environments, it's actually Praised.
Right.
Krispin: I've
DL: if so, I've written a fricking biography of Dorothy Day, who's, you know, in the process of[00:25:00] becoming a canonized saint. I read several, you know, biographies of people who are canonized saints. I think of Simone Weil, I think of Kierkegaard, like all these people who wrote these important ethical
Krispin: important, ethical books.
DL: who Who died young.
I mean, Dorothy Day didn't die young, but she experienced a lot of anguish in her life and basically learned to chill out a bit. Um, but like, Kierkegaard, Simone Weil, it's like... Luther?
Krispin: I mean, if we look back throughout history, usually, I mean, so many saints, I think, so many religious figures.
Also, I mean, you know, like we can think of like, um, you know, activists that are really famous currently that you're like, yeah, you know, it's hard to tell. Like, I don't know the inside of their mind, but like, which is so hard because it's like you're doing really important work. And at what cost to you?
And again, coming back to the show, we see that with Chidi. Like, we see what is the cost of living there all [00:26:00] the time. Right.
DL: And so I think, it's not like I have any...
Krispin: have any,
DL: way to tie this up with a bow except to say that I am like actively working on identifying the ethical OCD that I've sort of lived with my whole life and it has truly impacted like every element of my life and uh, through, you know, a therapist and a doctor just being able to up my anxiety meds and sort of gain some clarity around that. Just even really recently, and I just want to say, like, if you're somebody who identifies with Chidi, and if you're somebody who struggles to envision a future for yourself, where you can be happy or experience pleasure, like, you deserve to get help, and that is not How most people are living and it is not how you need to live.
Mine is so, you know, centered on if I'm a good or bad person. And that's actually at the root of lots of OCD. And it just manifests in different ways for different people. [00:27:00] Now, I'm also autistic, and autistic people have higher rates of developing OCD.
Krispin: Well, yeah, I was thinking about that though. There is a potentially genetic component. We are talking to a lot of people that are coming out of evangelicalism, which means that your parents were very drawn to some rigidity. So, in my mind, I'm like, we are like, if you're listening to this,
DL: it, Crispin!
Krispin: if you're listening to this, you are maybe not, It doesn't mean that you are neurodivergent in any way, in terms of like, autistic or OCD.
But, um, you know, the sample size we're talking to probably has higher rates of OCD type thoughts, uh, like thought patterns, um, than the general public,
DL: No, I totally agree. So that was kind of like the big thing I had. I think the minor ethical thing I saw in this episode was in the beginning when Tahani, you know, was talking to Jason and being like, how did you even get in here?[00:28:00]
Like, and I'm just like, oh, that's Tahani's worldview crumbling, right? Like that is when we start to see Tahani be like,
Krispin: How
DL: how are all these people getting in here? This is how it's supposed to work, you
Krispin: know?
DL: and we see it through Chidi's eyes But also Tahani, who definitely does not have ethical OCD, but is trying to prove she's a good person in a different way Um, I don't know.
I just thought that was so interesting and she continues to be one of the most interesting characters to
Krispin: continues to be one of the most interesting characters to me. To Honey? Yes! I mean, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So you might have religious trauma if, sorry I, I took it over,
DL: good! Do it! Uh,
Krispin: I [00:29:00] was, you might have religious trauma if you thought that every choice you made had to fit into a system.
And we kind of talked about this earlier, but I was thinking about, uh, you and I were talking about, um, religious communities, how everything has to fit into this one. logical, analytical thought system. And you have to make everything fit in. Which reminds me, this episode reminded me of that. Um, and just all the like ways that you end up kind of like going in thought circles trying to make everything fit together in a way that makes sense.
DL: I love it. Okay. Mine is, you might have religious trauma. If the idea of you having one perfect person that God wanted you to marry was a big stressor in your adolescent, in young adult life. Okay. Think about the amount of pressure we had. Uhhuh . Not only could we not have sex, we couldn't.
Krispin: [00:30:00] Even date
DL: Cause you and I grew up in the Josh Harris, I Kissed Dating Goodbye era, um, kiss really without feeling guilty, like, and so I took it to the extreme of like, the Bible says don't be unequally yoked, right?
And I have a call from God on my life to be a leader, but I'm a woman. And so I can't be under the, a man because of the patriarchy. So I need to be single so I can like, and I think you had the opposite where you're just like. Are you my soulmate? Are you my soulmate? Does God want me to marry you? And so like, we both went opposite extremes with that pressure.
Krispin: is
DL: Um, but I was just like, well, in this, in these rules, I can't be with anybody.
Krispin: Um, because of how
DL: of how the patriarchy set up. Uh, but you did it the opposite way. Was it kind of traumatic for you? Yes. Trying to find a soulmate
Krispin: totally. I mean, I've talked about this before, about going on the mission trip and staying up all night because there [00:31:00] were ticks everywhere and then waking up at 4am and going on a walk and God being like this is who you're going to marry.
And I didn't end up marrying them. But that was on my mind all the time. And always looking for signs, looking for like, yeah, all
DL: How come you were not like that with me?
Krispin: I had, uh, given up on actually had given up on a lot of Christianity. Stuff by the time that you and I met I was I was like 50 percent like this is bullshit
DL: Well, I think that saved you, bud. I think that saved you. If you had come to me with that soulmate bullshit, I would have ran away. But instead, you just weaseled your way in there.
Krispin: Yeah, I mean, that being said,
DL: we talked about marriage within
Krispin: like, we talked about marriage within the first year,
DL: Yes! Don't you think it's clear?
Krispin: it's
DL: here's how Crispin slipped through
Krispin: Uh huh.
DL: Are you ready to hear this?
Krispin: Are you ready to hear this?
DL: He was a [00:32:00] missionary kid, so I was like, oh, that means he will want to be a missionary with me. So I put down my guard, let this cute little hairy boy in, and I also thought, he told me, he kind of lied and said he was older than he was.
Krispin: he was, um. I said I was almost 20 when it was like 9 months away, and you were 22. So, he lied, and that's
DL: he lied. And, that's basically all it was.
Krispin: Yep, and it worked out, right. Do you
DL: do you actually believe in soulmates or twin flames or, or whatever?
Krispin: No.
DL: Then how do you explain us?
I don't believe in it for anybody else.
Krispin: I was gonna say, it's like hard to, to say it in a way that I'm like, I think we have a really good similar temperament. There are just so many things I appreciate about you. I think we've also, like, each done our work. But I [00:33:00] also think, I don't want to say, like, if you have a bad relationship, it doesn't mean you haven't done the work.
So, I want to throw that out there too, but I do think that that
DL: But it's nice that both of us are doing the work at the same time. Um, I think that's really helpful.
Krispin: Yeah. Right. Um, and yeah, we just, I mean, I think the things it's funny because as you've gone through this deconstruction the last couple of years, you're like, you know, who am I, if I'm not a Christian, if I'm not an activist, blah, blah,
DL: am I if I have ethical OCD? Like, that's a wildly huge question for me.
Krispin: And here's what I've been telling you is like, I have always what I've always been drawn to is not those things about you. I love your intensity and your passion. But it's been your creativity, your just the way you think about things like the little pleasures you take in life.
Like when we were first dating, you just had all these rituals that Like, you know, like reading the paper on sunday morning and like just all [00:34:00] these things and I just like loved that, you know And so I feel like those things about you have not changed
DL: Yeah. I think what's hard is when my OCD gets...
Krispin: worse those things go away And so
DL: so that's kind of a new litmus test for me is like, am I able to do silly little things just for pleasure or just for me that don't have any bearing on if I'm a good or bad person? And, and so, you know, going back to Chidi, it's like, as he sort of heals, And addresses some of his ethical OCD throughout the seasons, we see him becoming a more fuller human, right?
Like, so anyways. Okay, uh, fun facts?
Krispin: Let's hear them!
DL: Okay, so... Okay. Well, I already did one of them, which was wrong, because you have watched Fast and Furious movie. Another fun fact is, I don't think when I first watched this show, I knew who Ariana Grande was. Did [00:35:00] you?
Krispin: was.
Did you? Yes, okay. This is not that fun of
DL: Yes, okay. This is not that fun of a fact, but when Michael's like looking through all these books of ethics There's like this huge encyclopedia set that says Universal Code of Ethics And I love how that was just there to continue to torture Chidi. Okay, this episode was written by Demi Adjouibi and
Krispin: uh,
DL: He co hosted a popular podcast with friend of the show Kevin T Porter called the Gilmore Guys podcast
Krispin: Oh!
DL: You probably don't know about any of this.
Krispin: No, I vaguely have memories of people talking about this and everything, so I'm tracking.
DL: So
Krispin: Gilmore Guys,
DL: Demi and Kevin, you know, they watched Gilmore Girls and talked about it. And a part of me is like, you would probably love this podcast,
Krispin: this podcast, Chris,
DL: again, in our relationship, one of us has watched Gilmore Girls and one of us has
Krispin: us
DL: You can take a wild guess [00:36:00] at who that is. So maybe. Being an early Christmas present to you, you can go back and listen to all these episodes, okay? Uh, so yeah, we're basically almost know somebody who wrote an episode of The Good Place! Don't you think that's amazing? That's
Krispin: a much better connection than, um, that Mark Evan Jackson was on Adventurous and Odyssey
DL: so now we have two tenuous connections to the good place. I was also on a podcast called Joe's Boys, where the host MAYBE was given a tour of Louisa May Alcott's childhood home by Mike Schur's mother. So
Krispin: up the
DL: the other connection. Okay. Okay. Oh! The reason we know Kevin T. Porter is because he has, like, another podcast called Good Christian Fun, making fun of growing up in white evangelicalism, similar to us, except he's With, like, ten times
Krispin: the energy.
DL: I was gonna say, and he's, like, a [00:37:00] comedian. He's
Krispin: Mm hmm.
DL: And Caroline, his co host, is amazing, so.
Krispin: I remember when I was on that podcast like a year and a half ago and I was like, cause y'all know me. I don't have a lot of energy and this is like a, you got to show up like full, like improv
DL: Were you super sweaty?
Krispin: I was, it was the most energy.
I loved it, but it was the most energy I've ever expended in a podcast interview.
DL: I tell my embarrassing Kevin T. Porter story right now? Yes. Uh huh.
Krispin: If
DL: If anybody doesn't think I'm autistic, I believe after this story, you will know that I am. Okay, so Kevin was in town, Portland, and he asked to hang out.
So we, I was like, let's meet up at this place. That's cool. McManaman's right by us. We had a meal outside, you know, we're sort of coming out of COVID times.
Krispin: right? Um,
DL: I was awkward. As all get out as I can be in social situations when I'm not with Crispin.
Krispin: I think
DL: I'm even awkward when you're around too, but at least you're also awkward.
And [00:38:00] so, Kevin's not that awkward of a person. Okay, he's like L. A., he knows how to talk to people, whatever.
Krispin: texted you
DL: I texted you while I was eating with Kevin, because you were at home watching the kids. Like a good partner. And, what did I text you?
Krispin: you? I forget, something like, it's not as bad as I thought? Was that what you
DL: Uh, something like that.
Krispin: Uh huh. Like, this is going better than I anticipated. This is
DL: I anticipated! Well,
Krispin: guess the
DL: Kevin that.
Krispin: And so he was
DL: And so he was just like...
Krispin: glad,
DL: Well, I'm glad, I guess.
Krispin: never caught
DL: And then he never contacted me again after that, uh, awkward lunch. I'm sure he's still friends with the show. But I was like, wow. Wow!
Krispin: Way to try
DL: Way to try and be a person in the world. Didn't go great.
Okay, those are my fun facts, Crispin. Someday
Krispin: we will have to, I'll have to share my similar story of accidentally texting the [00:39:00]megachurch
DL: Oh my god, that's an even better story. Yes, we have to save that. Yes. Okay, we have to save that. Okay, so,
Krispin: Uh,
DL: is the good place. Wait,
Krispin: questions. We didn't have any, but y'all should send some. Maybe it's because people know that they keychains on your website now.
DL: Well, they couldn't until they were sold out. Yes.
Krispin: But you're doing more stuff,
DL: weird shit at D. O. Mayfield dot com if anybody wants to get in on
Krispin: Yes. If you want a sweatshirt that says, uh, being trans is not a sin, but being transphobic is, or...
DL: Jesus spitting out of his mouth.
Krispin: Mm
DL: Um, I'm gonna be making some more strong willed merch, and I've been making zines, uh, which is really fun to accompany my book, The Myth of the American Dream. Which I wrote seven years ago. Oh! Just like The Good Place!
Krispin: Place! Oh my god!
DL: So yeah, you guys can go there. But there's no
Krispin: there. You know what I mean? I started
DL: You know what I mean? Started writing it. I wrote it for a few [00:40:00] years. Um. It was published in 2020, but that doesn't mean I wrote it in
Krispin: I wrote it in 2020.
Okay!
DL: Yeah. Nobody's sending any questions, so nobody gets cool merch from me.
Krispin: me. So
DL: they start sending in some more questions.
Krispin: some more questions. So I'm gonna start sending in
DL: I said, I'm going to yell at
Krispin: Yep. If you're awkward, you
DL: if you're awkward, you can just email the question.
Krispin: the humanity of the leaving a
DL: of the leaving a voicemail. If, as if, if the Kevin T Porter story didn't. Already show that
Krispin: awkward
DL: get very awkward
Krispin: people. Right. So we get that.
DL: Okay. What is giving you hope in humanity these days?
Krispin: case? Um. So, just thinking about, uh, the British TV, uh, focus in this, uh, the show Taskmaster. I've just been loving this season. I'm sure that a few of you know this and many of you don't.
If you YouTube Taskmaster, it is a [00:41:00] weird British game show that features comedians, and it's great.
DL: Yeah, and this season Sam Campbell is on it and he is a revelation and a delight.
We're really enjoying him and our 13 year old knows him because,
Krispin: for Don't
DL: Yeah, he's like a writer for Don't Hug Me I'm Scared, which is a big phenomenon and I don't get it and it seems depressing.
Krispin: Oh, Sue Perkins!
DL: Oh yeah, super hands.
Krispin: season to start it,
DL: This is a great season to start with. So yeah, it's free on YouTube so anybody can watch it.
Krispin: I have a suggestion,
DL: Okay, well,
Krispin: I have
DL: I believe I had one of the best
Krispin: I
DL: bagel sandwiches of my life yesterday, and I could just feel
Krispin: my sense that
DL: like I could just feel.
Krispin: You gotta shout
DL: My sense that everything was gonna be okay.
Krispin: a listener that works there. Okay, so it's at
DL: Okay. So it's at Legacy Coffee, which is in Gresham, [00:42:00] Oregon.
And I run into multiple people there who listen to our podcast
Krispin: So
DL: So shout out to them and they make the best coffee, the best try. And now. I'm aware that they make the best bagel sandwiches ever. So, that made me feel really good. It's like, we're kind of regulars at a coffee shop now. Isn't that nice? And our friend Brad owns it and he's
Krispin: It's so nice to have an alternative to I mean, it's
DL: Oh yeah, we're boycotting Starbucks. Let's make that clear.
Krispin: yes, that's true. Legacy stands on its own.
I will say that, but it's so nice that we don't have to go to Cafe Delirium, which is the Christian coffee shop where everybody's always doing Bible
DL: studies.
You are throwing shade at Café Delirium right
Krispin: I do it any chance I can.
DL: it. That's the other coffee shop in downtown
Krispin: Yes. I'm always like, you can go to the Bible
DL: wanna hear some old men talking loudly about God's will? Well, go to Café Delirium, okay?
Krispin: If you want an [00:43:00] inclusive space that has lots of, not lots, but that has, uh, that regularly promotes pride events,
DL: And Ted Lasso quotes. Legacy. Legacy. Legacy coffee. You might see me or, you might see me or Crispin there, and you might see Crispin crying, because one of the times we went there recently, you were crying.
Um. Yes,
Krispin: In front of
DL: In front of the baristas who listed our podcast. Yeah.
Krispin: Yes. It's great. So great. Life is going great. No, it's just really normal to cry sometimes. Also, I mean, part of it was that the owner or, I mean, part of it is the person that runs it is a friend of ours. And when I saw him, I had been having a rough time and I started crying.
DL: I know.
Krispin: Okay. Uh, those are, that's a great place to end.
DL: Okay, I have nothing else to say. I'm so bad at wrapping things up, but thanks for listening. We have I can't believe it. I did not [00:44:00] know that happened so early
Krispin: I did not know that happened so
DL: It was great. Yes, I think
Krispin: I think Sean probably comes next episode, but, but who knows? I bet Sean, here's my guess, Sean will show up in the last scene of the next episode.
DL: If you're right, then I will stop talking about you crying at Lake City Coffee Shop to people, okay? Okay,
Krispin: And if you win, if I'm wrong, yeah,
DL: wrong,
Krispin: you're gonna keep talking about it. No,
DL: you have to come up with another option. If
Krispin: win, then, uh, I'm so bad at it on the, on the spot. I, I will edit this part out. Um. Go edit this
DL: edit this
Krispin: experiencing a
DL: You're, you're experiencing a cheating moment right now. You [00:45:00] hate being put on
Krispin: what is, what's the perfect thing to say? If, if Sean isn't,
DL: if, if, if Sean is, you know, not at the end, it is at some point. If
Krispin: end, then I will buy you a coffee at Legacy Coffee. He's sugar daddy.
DL: Sugar Daddy. I appreciate
Krispin: the army
DL: would rather you buy me a bagel sandwich
Krispin: that
DL: Is that okay? That's a perfect plan. Well, thanks for listening, y'all, and we'll catch you next time.
Krispin: next time.
DL: Take it easy!
