The Attachment Style of a Trashbag
DL and Krispin talk about S1 E9 titled “...Some Like Me as a Member.” We talk ethical OCD, feeling of shame, attachment styles and more.
Krispin & DL mention Messes of Men by mewithoutyou
DL mentions Ethical OCD, and here’s a great article on it.
Krispin references Becoming Attached by Robert Karen.
Diane Poole Heller has an Attachment Quiz you can take to find out yours!
We use the audio from The Good Place Podcast.
Leave us a voicemail at (503) 912-4130 or send a voice memo to propheticimaginationstation@gmaill.com.
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TRANSCRIPT
Krispin: Welcome to This Is The Bad Place podcast where we talk about The Good Place. I still can't get over the fact that we are really bad at naming podcasts. We didn't call it like “The Bad Place podcast” We called it This Is The Bad Place. Which then makes it hard sometimes when I'm like, “this this is The Bad Place podcast,”
DL: Well, this is the bad place. That's all we need to know, It feels like the bad place. Let me tell you. Not this episode. Uh, America? Right now? Which is interesting because I'm doing a little fun fact early, okay?
Krispin: ok
DL: So this episode is called Someone Like Me as a Member, which is a very odd title, and we'll talk about that.
Krispin: it starts with ellipses
DL:. Uh huh. Uh huh. Well, should I get into it? Do you know what that's from? No. Okay, so that is from a quote from... Groucho Marx, which says, “I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member.” I thought, you would probably think of mewithoutyou.
Krispin: exactly what I was going to say!
DL: Yes! So for those who aren't in the know, Mewithoutyou is like a Christian hardcore band that I love too! Um But the theme of today is going to be a little bit talking about moral scrupulosity, and also some like self image, self talk stuff. So what is the line from a Mewithoutyou song that I knew you would think of?
Krispin: Yeah,
he says, “I’d never want someone so crass as to want someone like me.”
DL: So you basically, that's inside the mind of a traumatized person, right?
Krispin: mhmm
DL: Like, if somebody accepts me…
Krispin: If you love me, then there must be something wrong with you because there's [00:02:00]something wrong with
DL: Exactly! So Groucho Marx said it, Aaron Weiss from Mewithoutyou said it. I don't care. And Eleanor kind of is embodying that philosophy in this episode, but that's not really what I was going to say. Really what I was going to talk about, fun fact wise, is about when this episode aired, okay? So, this episode aired November 3rd, 2016.
Krispin: Okay.
DL: And the 2016 presidential elections took place five days after this came out. And the weird thing is, there was like, a long gap between this episode and the next one. So the next episode didn't air until January 5th, 2017. So I'm just trying to be like, placing this episode in like, the context of what was going on in American politics and American culture.
This is... The last one that aired before Donald Trump was elected. And [00:03:00] then the next episode doesn't air for several months. So any who, just putting that out there.
Krispin: I forgot about that. Cliffhanger, because they
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: so well in this show. And then you just
DL: Like a real cliffhanger and we were watching in real time,
Krispin: Right,
DL: know, so yeah.
Krispin: Sometimes I, um, like, think about cliffhangers that our kids watch, but then they don't have to watch the cliffhanger. They didn't go through what we went through
DL: Yeah, they don't have any trauma in their life.
Krispin: Exactly.
DL: Right. Thank you. Except when they saw the second Enter the Spider Verse, right?
Krispin: Yeah
DL: Yeah, they, you, cause you took the kids to the theater to see it and they came home spitting mad. Mm hmm. Cause that ends on an intense cliffhanger.
Krispin: an intense cliffhanger. When you don’t know it’s coming.
DL: And it's a fabulous movie, but definitely a cliffhanger. Yeah. So, okay.
Krispin: So, um, yeah,
I mean, [00:04:00] Let's, uh, start with, uh, Mark Evan Jackson summarizing this episode called Someone Like Me as a Member.
ADD SUMMARY
DL: Wow.
Krispin: Yeah, it ends abruptly, but that's because he's like, today the, our guest is….blah blah blah. He didn't say the thing about Sean, even though Sean is mentioned in this
DL: Yeah, Sean is finally mentioned. Um, who... Yeah. Oh, I was really hoping he would appear in this episode because I forgot, But he didn't. What else do you think he missed in that little thing?
Krispin: Um, I mean, I think the, the overall kind of what is like, [00:05:00] maybe he missed, or maybe I'm didn't hear it, but this episode is all about sort of negotiating like, is, is Eleanor going to go to the Bad Place or not? She hasn't left yet, and they're kind of like trying to figure out like, is she allowed to stay?
DL: How do we get her to stay? Yeah. I have a lot of favorite parts that would flesh out what the episode is about, but that's okay, we can, we can go straight into Watch Rewatch.
Krispin, I think this was just the same as original watching for me.
DL: You're just fascinated with the, quote, unquote real Eleanor, right? The ethical Eleanor and seeing her and Chidi bond and you're like, oh wow, that really throws a pickle into this whole thing. Um, so I think that's definitely what I focused on the first time around.[00:06:00]
DL: And then the second go around,
you know, spoilers. Alert for people, uh, who have not watched it, um. The real Eleanor is actually a demon, right, this whole time, and so I think watching it with that level of awareness was really interesting to see how, like, this is set up to torture Eleanor. Mostly, but also cheaty in a way, and so I was really sort of, I just felt sad a lot on the rewatch.
There's a very sad thing that happens. Can I tell you?
DL: It's when Jason has this like really lovely moment with Janet, you know, because Janet is still having a hard time rebooting or whatever. So Janet asks Jason what is a jalapeno popper, and he's so excited because he gets to tell her and she's like, thank you. And then he hugs her and she was like, “why, why'd you do that?” He's like, “because you're the only person here who's nice to me.” And then he just kind of, and then she leaves and he just kind of sits there.
Looking kind of [00:07:00] sad. And I was like, oh my god, “Jason's having a really hard time in heaven.
And nobody is nice to him.
And these are all, again, ostensibly good people, Chidi and Tahani, and they are not nice to him and very dismissive of him. So that really stood out to me, uh, on the rewatch.
Krispin: Yeah that was one of my favorite things. You stole it, but that's okay. Um, yeah, I, uh, for me, I, feel like I had the same experience watching it the second time as the first time, which is like, what are the rules here? Like, they're trying to figure out, like, what are the rules of this universe?
DL: And of the bad place.
Krispin: Right, of the good place. I mean, they talk about, like, alright, well, what can we, you know, if we keep Eleanor, what can we give you in exchange? Like, “a unicorn that you can skin and grind its horn down” which is funny, it's very The Lion, he Witch, and the Wardrobe in a [00:08:00] way
Krispin: Right. It's true though. Like, you know, Trevor is like the wicked witch and like, all right, like, you know, I a
DL: the wicked witch? The white witch. The wicked witch of the of the white.
Krispin: I’m mixing up old stories. Um, but, yeah, you know, it's like, Trevor's like, yeah, we lay claim to Eleanor and they're like, okay, well, what can we trade? So, I guess if they had a lion around that they could have strapped to a stone table, maybe
DL: We'll get into what I think about all of that, but like, [00:09:00] I think for me, it is confusing.
Like, understanding that there's multiple people in this who are bad faith actors,
Krispin: mmm,
DL: I didn't have that awareness the first go around. And so, yeah, you just get stuck on like, “what are the rules? What's going on?” This is kind of funny, but also like, ah, I feel anxious, you know? Second I watch around, I'm like, mmm, I see how all this effectively just tortures humans, you know?
Krispin: Right, Yeah. Definitely. Well, and it's interesting, too, that dynamic of, like, what is good and what's bad, because in this story that they're telling that's fake, but still: Eleanor saves fake Eleanor from death and that is a good thing, but then that means that fake Eleanor goes to hell and real Eleanor goes to heaven forever, so is that like really a good sacrificial thing, if it's like, I'm doing this to secure my eternal destiny?
Anyway, we don't have to go down that rabbit trail, but...[00:10:00]
But I do, I mean, I, you know, it's been a while since I watched it, so even now I'm just like, I can't like... Even though I know it's all fake, there's still this like my brain is like, but what are the rules? Like, and then at the end, we find out Sean who rules over everything is going to come and make a ruling.
And so, um, that kind of answered my question. But most of the episode, I was just like, I can't remember where this goes. So.
DL: that kind of answered my question. But was just like, I can't remember where this goes. One more thing, which is: we need to mention the cliffhanger. Tahani finds Jason’s meditation cave, which is actually just as we've talked about before his “bud hole.”
Krispin: right? Yes. Uhhuh .
DL: His He tapped a keg and [00:11:00] then she went into his meditation cave,
Krispin: which is actually just as we've talked about before, that is decorated, with very, the combination of 12 year old boy with 13 year old boy, right?
And I feel upset for myself Now looking back on having this cliffhanger and then knowing that I had to wait until January to find out what was gonna happen. I feel the retroactively
DL: The angst.
Krispin: Mm-Hmm.
DL: and we were different people by the time the next episode
Krispin: I know, right?
Krispin: we had to go through the Trump election.
DL: had to go through, we had
Krispin: Okay, so favorite things?
DL: Okay, well I have a lot. First we get our first brief glimpse of bad Janet. She is an icon and is incredible. This episode because there's definitely some childhood trauma stuff that comes up. And I just thought the bad place people obviously make it very fun to watch
Yeah, so I liked all that. What about you?
Krispin: There’s this clown corner with all these clown paintings and what's really funny is that they're like, “oh we decorated your room in the bad place with the exact same paintings.”
DL: [00:13:00] And what's really funny is that they talked about what torture would look like for Eleanor, you know, in the Bad Place, which was, like, you have to perpetually attend a baby shower that you're also organizing for somebody you don't really know and you get yelled at a bunch.
I was like, “that is my nightmare.” You know what I mean? yeah,
Krispin: Yeah, um, this was so cringy but... The Bad Place crew does karaoke, but they do karaoke to like, terrible, like, Mussolini, and, the Nixon tapes.
DL: I liked Eleanor talking about how bad jazz is Because [00:14:00] hadn't you just said a few times ago that you were into jazz? And I was like, “and now here we are.”
Krispin: yeah, she's like, we get it, you can blow a horn for 15 minutes, Elton John.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And Chidi’s like, “Elton John, who is notably a piano player,” yeah
DL: Um, I guess my other favorite thing is... When Trevor, the demon, says like, I swear to Bieber.
Krispin: I swear to Bieber! Yes. I mean, just seeing Adam Scott, you know, our context for him at this point was just Ben Wyatt in Parks and Rec. So to see him play this demon is just always cracks me up. Yeah.
So should we move on to this is the bad place?
DL: Yes.
I know that we usually talk about an ethical question and then we sort of talk about, you know, how it relates to our backgrounds and processing and blah, blah, blah.
But I think the ethical [00:15:00] question ostensibly is like, what do you do when you are thriving or your ability to live is, like, juxtaposed against your taking away that from somebody else, right? Which is a really awful ethical question, but at the same time, it's a false one that is being set up here,
and instead, I'm like, I don't know if there is an ethical question for this episode, and instead, I'm like, I think this episode is a really interesting Look into what ethical OCD looks like and how it impacts people.
I mean, we can call it moral scrupulosity But you know what I'm saying? I really saw this come out specifically in Eleanor. Someone we wouldn't think of as having ethical OCD. I'm like, who's the person you think of in the good place who has ethical OCD – Chidi. I think that is pretty pretty clear and yet[00:16:00] it's sort of spilling out into everybody, right? Every all the four humans keep being put in these positions where they have to think through things, and so Eleanor is really having this quote unquote ethical awakening, and yet it's Painful and it's causing her suffering and I think we could even call it torture.
And so I think that that's just kind of what stuck out for me and I can talk more about that But I wanted to hear your thoughts first
Krispin: more about that, but I wanted to hear your thoughts. I think, I, I came out with an ethical question that I think is related, which is this idea of groups, in groups, and you only caring about people that are in your in group.
Michael says, “we're going to try to keep you in the good place because you're one of us.”
DL: which is weird because last episode he called Trevor to come get Elanor
Krispin: Well, we're not expecting [00:17:00] consistency from a demon, but I really picked up on that idea of like, oh, like you are, you're in our in group, therefore we care about you. And I think that fits because Eleanor has been like, I'm on no one's team, and so I don't have to care about anyone.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And now, she's starting to think about like, oh, like maybe the in group is bigger than one person. And we see, we, there's a nod to her parents not being, providing a good in group or sense of belonging for her. We're starting to understand why that is. But I think that kind of fits. And even, um, yeah, just like this idea of like, there's this ideology of like, if you are close to someone, if you have proximity to someone, if you get to know someone, especially from a marginalized group, then you're going to care about that marginalized group rather than like, “people just deserve human rights.”
DL: Yeah. Yeah. I think that gets really interesting and really tricky [00:18:00] because like Eleanor this whole episode is supposedly about Eleanor realizing like, I can be a part of a group and that's changing me, right? When I'm a part of something, I'm connected And yet, who's the person telling her, like, you're part of our team?
It's a demon who wants to keep torturing her.
And so I think that is really interesting, right? She thinks in-group status will save me, but really it's just prolonging the torture, right? And keeping her mind thinking about that instead of looking at the system as a whole. That doesn't mean the actual shit isn't being processed here because it seems like Eleanor is starting to really process her life.
And I thought it was really interesting how she even tries to bring that up when she's out to dinner with Trevor the Demon and, you know, the real Eleanor. And she kind of brings up like, yeah, both my parents were dirtbags, they got divorced, and you know, that trauma could really impact a person.
Um, and so I'm like, [00:19:00] oh, that's like actually a sign of growth, right? To be like... “I think my childhood really impacted me.” And, you know, this is a part of it, but then what happens?
Krispin: What happens then is the, the real Eleanor, who went to hell, is like, oh yeah, and like, talks about her trauma. and it's like, being an orphan, like living through like an orphanage burning down, just all this, like, severe trauma, right? And she's like, and “look, I became this person that's, like just amazing. right?” And one thing is, like, it really points out to me, Even though this is a fake setting, but one ist that trauma about how it impacts you, not about the events. So that's important to recognize. Comparing trauma doesn't work very well. Um, but the other piece is, um, yeah, there, like, we see this, like, Eleanor starting to reflect on her life and how she got here, and how it impacts how she relates to others, which I think is important work.
And then we sort of have this, like, [00:20:00] narrative of, like, but it wasn't that bad. So,
DL: And then we see ethical OCD and you know, I'm only just now starting to really be able to grasp how pervasive that's been in my life and you know, there's an ebb and flow to it, but You know, it's not fun. It's not fun at all And I really recognized that entire table scene as something that happens in my mind like all the time
And I don't know how if you've really seen this Chrisman because you know, that's our thing about some of these. Um, you know, rumination based OCD things as they happen in your mind. but I think one thing that kept me from thinking about myself as someone who'd experienced trauma, and thinking about my childhood, you know, thinking about how things [00:21:00] impact me long term, even to this day, I surrounded myself with people who had so much more trauma than me in my mind. And...
Uh, you know, I've lived-in low-income housing, worked with refugees, uh, I've just been sort of willing me willingly placing myself on the on the front lines of some pretty hard places in in American society and I think a lot of that did serve for me to be like, you have nothing to complain about. “You're not a refugee,” you know? So like, you have nothing to complain about and I would really like those kinds of thoughts happen to me all the time, and they still do. If I'm like, processing something and feeling really sad, I immediately have this thought of like, you're such a privileged person, you should not feel this, you know?
And that is just a way my brain operates. And I think seeing it play out for Eleanor, I was like, [00:22:00] sucks. And this is, this is, it's just interesting. Especially If the theme, sort of, for Eleanor in this episode is,
is it, and I think Trevor basically spells this out after that table scene. He says, basically, like, isn't it better to suffer and be punished for who you are rather than trying to fit in where you don't belong?
And that is, that, and that might not be OCD, that might be even just like a CPTSD, right? Straight up.
DL: If you think you are a trash bag, which is whatTrevor calls Eleanor over and over again, and they call her fake Eleanor over and over again, including Michael, and she even tells Michael, Stop calling me that, you know?
Exactly. And so...
There's parts of her that can fight up against that but I think when she's thinking about trauma She's like, yeah, I come from two dirtbags. you know, I do, I don't deserve to be in the good place But I want to try but yeah, is it better to just accept my fate, [00:23:00] which is I'm a bad person rather than trying to fit in where I don't belong and to me like that's just the saddest It's the best and yet most accurate representation of people with complex childhood trauma trying to think about how to be in the world because the way life set us up with our caregivers, right, is that we truly at our core think we are trash bags, right, and not deserving of any good thing, which makes forming community connections really, really difficult.
So anyway, that's a lot. That's heavy stuff.
Krispin: definitely. And I mean, this is where I live, talking about these things because um, yeah, if you grew up in a family where your emotional needs are not met, it creates this sense in yourself of like, there's something at my core that is disgusting, that drives other people away.
There's something, there must be something wrong with me. And it can be a very subconscious feeling.
DL: Um, yeah, like having needs is wrong, right? Exactly. Yeah.
Krispin: Like, I was just thinking about, [00:24:00] one of the first places I read about this, there's this book on attachment called Becoming Attached, and the chapter is called, “Ugly Needs, Ugly Me.” It’s idea of like, me having needs means there's something wrong with me.
If you grew up in a family that shames you for having needs, it's interesting too because in that chapter they talked about that theme of like, oh my parents are, are, you know, really bad, so I must be bad because I come from that. But, um, yeah, it's really significant. And I think that this gets really complex because there is obviously privilege that exists in the world and hierarchies of privilege. And I don't think that you have to compare or dismiss anyone else's experience for your experience to be valid. I don't think you're alone in that. [00:25:00] you know, this idea of “I have a lot of privilege, therefore I haven't suffered.” But you can suffer. and we also want to acknowledge, like, I want to acknowledge there are people that have less privilege, and that is suffering, and that needs to be a part of like, the, you know, acknowledgement as well. Maybe I'm overstating it, but I see this come up over and over and over in different like sections and communities. So, um, yeah, but I, I think that, like, That is interesting to think about Eleanor kind of asking this question, like, what's the right thing, and where do I belong and how do I treat myself?
I think it's one of that, like, the scrupulosity is like, should I punish myself for being a dirtbag or can I expect more from myself?
DL: Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting.
Eleanor is such an interesting character. I just thought, Whoa, this is almost like Chidi stuff coming up in a different way. And that is what OCD can do, right? It can morph into what is most important to you, which [00:26:00] can make it very confusing and all that stuff. Um, but I just thought, Eleanor has something in her that does fight back against these narratives, and I think that's why she's such a compelling character, right?
And in this rewatch, I am just like, I was so locked in because both Tahani and Chidi are just stuck in their little worlds that have not been shaken enough yet, right? And the sad thing is we know it's coming for them.
I think Chidi probably crumbles the most, right? Because he's invested so much This, the rules working, right? And the, the setup being correct, and I just think if you are somebody who has obsessive compulsive thoughts, specifically if it's of the scrupulosity or ethical kind, there's such a relief to be like, I found a system and it works. and I know what to do, and that's why I think religion, too. Humanity and humankind and growing and evolving means, like, we can never just be static, right? We always have to be prepared for some new information to change us as humans. But instead we see a lot of people doubling down. I mean, I mostly see this in religion, if I'm being Um, it has to be good for everybody because it's good for me, personally, and it's just like, but
like, when people present you with other information, like, How does that how does that impact you? And again, I'm not saying all religion's bad or anything, but we come from white Evangelicalism. So it is difficult to hear at this point in history that it's a, it's a net positive for the world, but I'm like, oh.
Krispin: They did some meta analysis on the psychological [00:28:00] impact of religion recently within this last year, which means like, they looked at all the studies on, like, you know, does religion have a positive or a negative impact on people and they were ample evidence that says both. So I think that's worth mentioning. There are lots of studies that say it is positive, There are lots of studies that say it's negative, and when you look at all the data together, there's no consensus, which I think is really important to recognize, like, it to me, that says, like, it has a potential to be positive, It also has a potential to be negative. And that's not even getting into the impact on the world, that's just psychologically. Okay, Speaking of religion, can we talk about religious trauma?
Krispin: So, you, you might… I can't, do I have to do it every time?
DL: You don’t have to.
Krispin: You might have religious trauma if… I'm gonna go first… if you, like Michael, were in the good place, so you never had to learn how to deal with negative feelings. Because at some point, Michael's like,[00:29:00] “I'm stressed out but I don't know how to deal with it because this is the good place and I never have negative feelings.”
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Which, you know, makes me think of growing up in the church where it's like, everything's okay, everything's fine. If you have a negative feeling, just pray and you'll feel better, and then you don't actually learn emotional regulation or coping skills.
DL: Yep. I love it.
Okay,
Mine is, you might have religious trauma if…I dunno how to say this in like a succinct way. You get stressed out by both Eleanor and Michael's boundary setting in this episode. Because I think high control religion in particular teaches you not to set boundaries, right, with people in authority or with people who are godly or within the hierarchy. And so this episode had some really interesting looks into boundaries like Eleanor when she was in [00:30:00] high school, right? Just basically telling everyone, No, like, I'm not going to be a part of your group. This is my firm boundary.
Then we see Michael really stressed out because all the demons from the Bad Place keep being horribly mean bullies to him and he just acquiesces. And the more he acquiesces and tries to smooth things over and be kind and all that, the worse they get. And Tahani is like, You have to speak up to them. And he's like, No, I'll just keep being really nice and soon they'll see reason, right? And she's like, no, and so I'm like, whoa, I was not, I was a lot more like Michael, right? And I was taught that people like Eleanor were really bad.
And now I'm like, oh, we've all got to find that part of ourselves that stands up to bullies, you know? But my religious upbringing did not
Krispin: Yeah. And I think even there's this, within a lot of like, within some religious ideology, I've been thinking about this a lot, about like, Oh, the bullies are, you know, just yet to be redeemed, [00:31:00] so if you, if you …
DL: you acquiesce, give them everything they want, and yeah.
Krispin: then things will get better. And I don't think that's true.
Krispin: DL’s Fun Facts.
DL: Oh, time for fun facts? Yeah. Okay. I don't know if this is a fun fact or not, but like the beginning of this episode really confused me.
It's like butterflies and this beautiful, you know, part of the good place. And it's like see trees blue or whatever that song is. Okay. And then all of a sudden we're back into Eleanor's face, you know, and they're all discussing whether or not she should stay or not. And then I saw some like, summary that Eleanor is dreaming of her happy place, and then it's sort of like brought back to reality. So like, Eleanor is literally dissociating at the beginning, trying to think of her happy place, which is the good place, which is a place of peace and calm and belonging, where she actually can be [00:32:00] at peace, which is so sad!
Like, isn't that so sad that she's like dissociating and thinking about that while everybody's arguing about how You know, she deserves to go to eternal conscious torment. So, that just really got my heart strings. Not sure that's a fun fact or not, but um, it is in there. Okay, another fun fact: the real Eleanor talks about how much she loves the house with the clown corner and she says, “I love Icelandic primitive design.”
Krispin, true or false: Is that a real design aesthetic?
Krispin: I would say yes, based on what I know about the writers.
DL: Icelandic primitive design…not real
Krispin: I'm bad at knowing if something’s just a joke or real or not.
DL: Well, it's a great joke, Uhhuh. Even if it was real, that'd be hilarious, but it's not. Um.[00:33:00]
Okay, one of the karaoke songs, before we get to the speeches, is Who Let the Dogs Out.
DL: Now, I don't know if this is an urban legend but I was told that that song is about ugly women.
Krispin: uh oh.
DL: so I just think it's wild that we were all singing that back in the day. Now, there's other people on the internet that say no, it's about women who are a cat called and they respond by calling the men dogs. You know, I mean, so it could be either one of those. now let's get into the karaoke You know, my ears perked up when they talked about Mussolini.
Okay, here we go people Mike Schur is anti fascist, which believe in my heart of hearts. So here's like the demons.[00:34:00] the three speeches they talk about, you know, doing karaoke. One is a Mussolini speech, which of course would horrifically anti Semitic. Then we have the Mel Gibson rant, which is horrifically anti Semitic. Then the Nixon tapes, which starts off, he talks about Irish people. And I was like, but didn't he also, oh, and then there we go. Now he's talking about Jewish people. And so, that was sort of the theme of just like, Antisemitism and, and how, you know, I don't know, The Good Place. So I was like, wow, that was intense. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Yeah. I mean, part of me wondered, like with when they just started out with Nixon talking about Irish people, I was like, yeah. Are they not going to play the part where he talks about Jewish people?
DL: Me too. That's exactly what I wondered because ….
Krispin: I was like, because it is like, it is, it is really upsetting.
DL: It is so upsetting. And there's, I mean, obviously there's so much he didn't put in there. [00:35:00]Now this is maybe a part we should mention that if you think what Nixon said in that little clip about Jewish people is bad, then you have a due diligence to look up and see what him and Billy Graham talked about, when it comes to Jewish people and it is horrific, horrifically anti semitic and I just feel like it just continues to prove our point that white evangelicalism, Billy Graham baby, is from the bad place and there's just no getting around that.
Krispin: Now, when I think of Billy Graham, I just see Michael’
DL: Oh, oh. That's like a horrible image because I grow to love Michael. Yeah. And I'm growing to hate Billy Graham more and more with each passing year. It's true. Yeah. Everything I learned is like, oh freaking God, this [00:36:00] is bad stuff. This is the bad place. Okay.
Krispin: Okay, so the first 10 search results are Christians being like, here's why it's not that bad.
DL: why It's not
Krispin: is which is an extra layer of like upsetness.
We have a listener question.
Caller: Oh Hi Cory here, I am cool with any pronouns I have a question about attachment styles in the Good Place. I recently [00:37:00] took a quiz which says mine is fearful avoidant, which I'm putting down to religious trauma I'm not sure how or where to start with wrapping my head around this, but I love the good place in all of its characters. So, my question is, do any of them seem to have this attachment style, or what attachment styles do we see from the main characters? I think that would help. Um, hoping you haven't already answered this somewhere and I missed Uh, and yeah, just wanted to say, thanks for all you're doing.
DL: Oh, I love how you chose a question that I am uniquely unprepared to answer. But luckily everyone, we have an expert in attachment here.
Krispin: we've been talking about this, all episode, which I didn't even really plan, but….
DL: Yeah, I was like, this does tie nicely
Krispin: yes, fearful attachment style is this idea of like, I want love. I want connection, I want closeness. And also something in me says, like, you don't deserve it. You are disgusting. [00:38:00]
DL: Well, well, well. Who says that? It’s so Eleanor! Right?
Krispin: Yes, And on the surface, Eleanor, or the way that she was previously functioning, actually was more avoidant. Yes. And then she is starting to get in touch with, like, actually this is what's driving this, is like this, you know, I've gotten this message, that there's something wrong with you. And, I think it totally fits with, uh, religious trauma.
I appreciate Corey mentioning that, because that's the message that you're given in evangelicalism. It's Like, you don't deserve love. There's something, you know, I’ve talked about extensively in other places, so I will not go on and on.
I often think about being in Sunday school, you know, if you grew up evangelical, One of the things that, uh, you do is you will, is, that some people do, is like, have a picture of a kid, and then, a drawing of a [00:39:00] heart, and then in the heart, you, like, draw black, which, um, is supposed to signify sin and how disgusting you are, which also perpetuates white supremacy, um, I want to mention that, but, um, but yeah, just this, like, this is the starting point for evangelicals, teaching children is, like, there's something at your core that makes you, unlovable and God doesn't want to be around you. If you really want to be loved, then you need to fundamentally change who you are, Which goes back to the thing that Trevor says, right? Like, Would you rather spen your whole life trying to be someone different? Or would you like to just accept who you are? You're a dirtbag.
DL: Yeah. And so you're saying that is Fearful.
Krispin: Fearful.
DL: So I think that's interesting. Uh, what else do you think about attachment
Krispin: Yeah, I think Jason seems secure. He's like, yeah, I like other people, other people like me, I'm deserving of love, [00:40:00] like even
DL: Not really, he says nobody was nice to him.
Krispin: Yes, but he's open to love To other people. He's not like Eleanor, where Eleanor is like, no, I don't even want to be around you. Jason is looking, looking for love. looking for friends.Tahani, I think also has a fearful avoidant, um, because she does want connection and she wants love. She, she tends more anxious. To like, you know, make sure that things are okay, but I think there is still this like push and pull that she has, you know, especially being shamed in childhood. Um, because with, yeah, she, she's like a quiet, anxious attachment style.
When we think about like kind of, I mean, everybody defies categories but...a lot of, anxious attachment folks will sort of blame the other person. Like, “I deserve love, why aren't you loving me?” Tahani is more like I'm going to try to get you to love me I'm anxious about that, but I'm gonna [00:41:00] be sort of like quiet and fun And then Chidi, I think, is more avoidant because he really lives in his head, not in his relationships. And he's trying to, you know, deal with that shame of feeling bad. through problem, rather than like reaching out to others for
DL: interesting. I think it's interesting how childhood trauma, religious trauma, and OCD can all lead avoidant behaviors, right?
But they can also sometimes propel Great! Just one more thing to be aware of how our childhoods impact us. Love it. Love it so much,
Krispin: right? Yeah. I hadn't thought about attachment for a minute, to be honest. but I wrote a whole book on it. If you don't know.
Krispin: I especially like the first half of the book that [00:42:00] I wrote that talks about how your religious upbringing can drive these different attachment styles. It’s simportant for people to, you know, be able to recognize like, oh yeah, I f I feel like I'm unlovable, like that's because I grew up in a religious upbringing where I was told that from a young
DL: Yep, who knew that would impact us so much, right?
Krispin: Yep.
DL: Okay, well, thank you so much Cory for calling and leaving us a question
Feel free every listening to do the same. We love to get listener questions more questions about ethical OCD, that's Researching a bit and maybe we'll talk about it even more in the next the next episode is called Chidi's Choice
Krispin: Oh. So. excited about that. Let's finish with, this is a good place. So, what's something positive I do. I was [00:43:00] having a rough week and, uh, last week. And, D. L. brought me flowers at work. And candy. It was very sweet.
DL: And that was the first time that somebody ever gave you flowers. And that made me feel kind of bad, but I'm not the type, I hate getting flowers really, you know? Um, and so I didn't think about it
Krispin: I think it has to do with, you know, gendered expectations
DL: What is gender? I’m channeling our13 year old
DL: Um, okay, what's good is I have one that's just so basic B, which is animals.
I'm on that phase CPTSD [00:44:00] where I. I'm not sure I want to be a part of anyone's team,
um, but animals are safe and animals love when I feel very today I'm little dog Fern. and our cat Roo, who again, almost died recently, but Roo's still here and kicking. Um, so
Krispin: so, great. Well, yeah, we're gonna wrap up here. Um, I'm so glad that we don't have to wait a few months for the cliffhanger, um, to find out what's gonna happen after Tahani found Jason's bud hole.
DL: Yep.
Krispin: Just quite a way to end this episode.
I want to reiterate, please send us your listener questions. Also, over on our Patreon, we are talking about family dynamics. [00:45:00] And, like, especially heading into the holiday season, when you have family members that see things really differently than you do, or you're recognizing, like, “hey, like, my relationship with my parents is, is fairly dysfunctional,” or “I don't know what I think about it.” We are talking about all those things on out Patreon, sort of in the context of the parenting books that a lot of our parents read growing up, and, like, kind of how it set those tones.
So, we'd love for you to join and listen to that. We'd also love listener questions for that part, um, but just wanted cue y'all in that we are talking about family stuff right before the holidays.
DL: Thanks to y'all for listening
Krispin: Thanks y'all for listening and we'll be back in a couple of weeks.
DL: of weeks.[00:46:00]
