Are You Not Captivated?
D.L. chats with Jenna DeWitt about Captivating, the highly-influential prescriptive romance guide for young Christian women in the early 2000s.
We tackle the harmful biases around gender roles and romance from an asexual and aromantic perspective.
Jenna DeWitt (follow her on Twitter!) is an editor and queer activist, focusing on educating people and providing resources on asexual and aromantic identities. Check out her blog for more info!
Also, as mentioned in the episode, here is the Spotify playlist curated by Jenna, Rainbow Faith.
You can find more information about our Faith and Justice Network cohort here! We’d love to have you join us this fall to untangle white evangelism together.
We have a website—check it out for more information. You can also find us on Twitter and Instagram.
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Cover art by Zech Bard.
Jenna
Krispin: [00:00:00] Yeah. Hey, welcome back. We are super excited to talk about one of my favorite books today, Captivating.
Danielle: You all know it; you all love it—Captivating by John and Stacy Eldridge. Mm-hmm.
Krispin: Gotta have that John in front, even though Stacy mostly wrote it and it's for women, but you know how it goes.
Danielle: They have to be under that umbrella.
Krispin: Mm-hmm we actually, um, are gonna release our Patreon only episode later this week. And we got into the weeds a bit [00:01:00] about our own experience with Captivating and Wild at Heart. And
Danielle: Were we gender conforming or were we not?
Krispin: Or did Krispin wear
Danielle: No, did one of us did wear
Krispin: One of us
Danielle: Nudge, nudge, wear
Krispin: Really tight women's pants without pockets that laced up with leather in the front?
Danielle: And did one of us wear baggy corduroys and three sports bras and a choker chain?
Krispin: You have to
Danielle: Y'all have to find out which was
Krispin: listen to
Danielle: which
Krispin: to find out. We also talk a bit about Preston sprinkle because he is sort of who is in the forefront of evangelicals that think that they're taking steps forward, but really he's just giving them license to double down.
Um, but I'm, so I loved this episode with Jenna and Danielle. You're just so good at finding guests. And Jenna is [00:02:00] definitely one of them, where as the editor, I was like, there's nothing to cut out here.
Danielle: Jenna came ready to play. That's what I wanna say. She is a dream to interview. She knows her stuff. And if you're listening to this and you're like, wow, I don't know a ton about you know, asexuality and aromanticism, um, Jenna really likes talking about this stuff. So invite her to your church, invite her to, you know, whatever to come teach you about this. I love as soon as I was reading Captivating, I was like, I need to get an, aromantic perspective on this cause the romanticism is shoved down your throat so much. So I just think it's really unique. And she was like, you should put it up in June for pride month. And I was like, yeah, we will. And so. She did it. She did for us. She reread the whole book.
Krispin: Yeah, she's amazing. Yeah. She also hosts some Aro/Ace Christian events online periodically. So just wanted to shout her out that if you identify that way and are looking for community [00:03:00] around that she is the person.
Danielle: Yeah. So listen, listen in, make sure you check her out, check, uh, follow her on Twitter. And I just loved talking to her. Yeah.
Krispin: It was really great. Oh, one last thing. Oh, cause this I'm, I'm just on the Jenna train. Okay. Jenna has a rainbow faith playlist on Spotify.
Danielle: Okay.
Krispin: This is so appropriate for our podcast, right? Because it is like current queer Christian artists, but it's also any CCM artist that has been affirming of queer people. So like,
Danielle: Or came out as affirming eventually? Like Ray Bolt?
Krispin: Yes, but like Amy Grant, apparently, uh, Jenna has like a rationale for like, what is affirming and what is someone being avoidant.
Danielle: Oh, like, yes.
Krispin: And she's like, they need to actually say something that like feels significant to, to queer Christians. Uh, but yeah, Jennifer Knapp, you know, like it's really,
Danielle: A lot of this is almost like worship music, cause I think a lot of people do [00:04:00] cause they, I mean Hillsong and Bethel are notoriously homophobic, so it's like, right. How do you listen to worship songs? I think Jenna has some of those artists and songs on there.
Krispin: Mm-hmm yeah, right. It's yeah. It's, it's a combo of like current worship groups, um, you know, stuff that we grew up listening to, but yeah, if you're listening to this, you probably are like, you might be at that place where you're like, I kind of wanna listen to music, you know, I might want to take a trip down memory lane, but I don't wanna support homophobic artists, uh, check out her playlist on Spotify. It's awesome.
Danielle: We'll link it in the show notes, so, yeah. Thanks. Thanks for that reminder. Yeah. Join us on Patreon. You'll wanna hear us blather on about Preston Sprinkle sprinkle and a local pride parade we went to yeah, but now let's, uh, listen to Jenna DeWitt.
INTERVIEW
Today is a very special day because I roped somebody into talking to me about the book, Captivating: Unveiling the Mystery of a Woman's Soul [00:05:00] by John and Stacy Eldridge. Uh, and I can't think of a better person to talk to about this truly, truly horrible book than, uh, Jenna DeWitt. Jenna, thank you so much for being here.
Jenna: Hey, I'm so glad to be here. And I love this podcast. So I'm very honored to be asked to talk about this interesting book.
Danielle: You're a listener. Oh.
Jenna: Well, I wasn't originally because I was raised mainline. Um, I grew up in the Methodist church and so pretty liberal. I did not grow up with Adventures in Odyssey. Wasn't familiar with it.
Um, and then a lot of the subjects you've did since then. Like, I really didn't grow up with them. It wasn't my culture that I was raised in. Um, but then you've had on some interesting guests recently, um, with the last series that I really wanted to hear their perspective on things. So, uh, that really intrigued me to that drew me in to hear what they would have to say about things.
Danielle: Well, you're gonna be one of those people for our listeners. I'm so excited about this, uh, before we kind of dive in, do you wanna just give people a little bit about yourself before we, you know, go [00:06:00] into the text?
Jenna: Sure. Well, like I said, my name is Jenna DeWitt. Uh, my pronouns are she/her. Um, I'm aromantic, asexual, and I lead Queer Christian resources on Twitter and on podcast appearances like this and on my blog at invisible cake society. Um, and I just love building communities and, um, being part of this kind of progressive Christian space, like I said, I was, I was raised in the Methodist church, so not specifically ex evangelical, um, but we have a lot of common ground, and I've spent some time in evangelical spaces.
So, um, just really excited about, uh, ways that we can deconstruct and then reconstruct into something healthier that we can carry forward to build a better future.
Danielle was actually nominated for a special writer's program at Christianity today where I was an editor. I was the copy editor at Christianity today and, um, Danielle was nominated as one of our best writers to come visit us. So we got to meet in person when we were up there in Chicago. So.
Danielle: And they subsequently a few months after that, after I won an award and they paid a bunch of money to fly me out, they were like, oh yeah, you can't write for us anymore. Cause you tweeted that you're affirming. So that's a whole, that's a whole thing, right?
Jenna: And I just wanna say too, just again, brag on you, cause you're not gonna do it yourself. Um, that, that meant a lot to me as a closeted queer person at an organization like that hearing this conversation happening about you deciding not to, um, be part of that anymore and, and stand by us as an ally. That meant the world to me when I was at a place where I couldn't really be out and I couldn't really say anything publicly, you know, to defend that, that just was a pretty much a game changer.
It was, it was a really big life changing allyship moment for me. So I just have to say thank you for that. [00:08:00]
Danielle: Oh, well, I just, you know, and I know people listening have probably had that similar experience to you where it's like, and they might even be in a situation right now, right, where you are in a place where you cannot be fully out as who you are and just like the particular horribleness of that and the trauma of that.
So I just am continually amazed at your, you know, to use a Christian term, your witness, right. Your life and your witness and just how amazing you are, how loving you are. And honestly, I do hear a lot of talk about, you know, anti purity culture stuff, all that stuff. But I do, I'm not hearing a lot of people talk about aromanticism and asexuality.
And so, um, do you wanna kinda like, I know you do this all the time. Do you wanna give us your little talk about those things right now?
Jenna: Sure. Yeah. Um, so aromanticism is when you do not experience romantic attraction to anybody. Um, so men, women, non-binary people just there, there's no romantic attraction there. And then asexuality is a lack of sexual [00:09:00] attraction. Um, same thing, like not really sexually attracted men, not really sexually attracted to women, you know, anybody on the spectrum of, of gender, um, or you can be on sort of a spectrum of asexuality and aromanticism, um, which is that maybe you rarely experience sexual attraction or romantic attraction, or you only experience it under really specific circumstances or in a certain way. Or, um, some people who've gone through trauma, there's a label for them. And so it's a big community of people who have non-normative amounts of romantic or sexual attraction. Um, and you know, we try to be really inclusive of people who have a broad variety of experiences. So.
Danielle: And I, I mean, I, I don't wanna sound stupid, but I also wanna just be honest and say, one of my questions has been growing up in conservative evangelical Christianity, right, is like, oh, we don't wanna, like, why does everybody need labels now? Why does everybody need to label themselves? And so I still have that sometimes come up for me, but tell me what are some of the reasons why it's really important for these [00:10:00] terms, like aromantic and asexual to be out there and for people to maybe start to explore if they fit under those, you know, kind of umbrella terms?
Jenna: Yeah.
Well, the main thing of that, if you don't see a need for a label, it's because you have privilege. It's because you live in the dominant narrative, and you don't need labels to define your experience in language because you live in the, the culture that already has language for it. So it's kind of like when people say like, oh, why do the gay people have to keep shoving their sexuality in our faces?
But straight people go around all the time with a billion-dollar wedding industry and wedding rings on their hands and pictures of their spouse everywhere. And that's considered okay. Or these like children's movies where like literal babies have people kissing or have these like onesies that say ladies man, or like, oh, she's flirting with you if a little girl giggles, you know, and they sexualize kids so young or romanticize kids so young, but yet if you have two men holding hands, it's like, ooh, pedophilia, like stop, [00:11:00] stop shoving in our faces.
You know? And it's like, because the normative straight experience, this heteronormative experience is so prevalent in the culture. Like people don't even see it. And so I think that's a really important way of like why we need new language. Why do we need these labels? Um, especially with romanticism and asexuality is because even if you can say like, love is love, if your first inclination of love is romantic love, you're leaving out a huge number of people. And so like, there's so many kinds of love and there's so much like, yes, love is love, but that includes platonic partners and friendship, and which are not the same thing. And family love and mentors and neighbors. And you know, like the love you experience for your church family. And like, there's just so many different kinds of love that when we narrow it down to be like, do you have a relationship? And it's like, well, what kind of, I have a lot of relationships, like, well, do you have a romantic relationship? Oh no, of course I don't have aromantic relationship. Do, do I have relationships? Yeah. I have a lot of relationships, so I think the precision of[00:12:00] language matters so much and that terminology matters so much because we have so little representation, almost no representation. And so people don't necessarily know what to think or to say, um, when you come to them and say like, I don't fit your normative experience.
This language is so powerful. Like, we'll talk about with the Captivating book, There's this term called a Mononormativity. And so like heteronormativity, this just says that everyone is expected to have a romantic partner that's also a sexual partner and that has to be the most priority, number one relationship in your life.
Like nothing else matters but this one relationship and that's kind of how we defined adulthood is that adults are people who have marriages and these committed long term romantic and sexual partnerships. And then if you're not in one, there's something wrong with you, or you're passed over, or like, why are you still single when you're so great?
I'm sure a lot of people have said that to other people, please stop saying that. Um, and so, you know, and, and even thinking of singleness as a thing to [00:13:00] mourn that, like, you're really sad for people when they say they're single. It's like, oh gosh, I'm so sorry. I hope somebody comes for you. And so I think that's a lot of the, um, problems that we're encountering with Stacy Eldridge and John Eldridge in this book, Captivating is they say like, every woman wants this and they say it on every page of this book.
Danielle: Thank you, Jenna. Thank you. Because I was reading this book, so I got this book Captivating to reread for the podcast. Um, again, I didn’t really wanna do this whole season because I, I know that I don't really understand like romance at this level that, you know, Christians kept insisting I must, like, so, so this book captivated came out in 2004 or 2005.
And where were you in 2005? Did you read this book back then? Did you know about this book or was this not in mainline circles?
Jenna: So I went to Baylor university, so
Danielle: Oh
Jenna: I was in evangelical [00:14:00] circles, but we did not use that word. We used more like, um, bicostal or charismatic, or we were part of the cell church movement, um, very much in that Bethel/Hillsong, international house of prayer, IHOP, kind of, we like come kind of combined all of those and then more of like, Not Southern Baptist, but kind of in that, um, realm of the Texas Baptist.
So kind of combining all of those influences together to be missional and charismatic and all of these things. Um, and this was a huge book in that circle, but honestly, part of my problem was that the Methodist churches also, I kind of experienced a little bit of what Stacy complains about of, she went to college and had these experiences of feminism that just were not relational.
They were not deep enough, like the progressive stuff that she encountered wasn't what she was looking for to touch her heart. Like it got her head interested and involved, but there was no like substance behind it, no relationship behind it. And the conservatives did. These [00:15:00] evangelical, conservative churches.
Are very good at showing up for you when you're sick. They're very good about this life on life, they call it, you know, uh, relationships and being there for you and your hardest moments. And that can be really toxic because the things that they're saying in those moments can be really harmful, like this.
Um, but yeah, I, I can kind of empathize with her a little bit.
Danielle: So she, so she does mention like, in the beginning of the book and I only read the first chapter, Jenna. So like you tell me if she, if she goes more into that, but yeah. She talks about sort of like joining the feminist movement in college. Okay. Like many women did in the seventies and, yeah. She says, “No matter how much I asserted my strength and independence as a woman (hear me roar), my heart, as a woman, remained empty. To be told when you are young and searching that you can be anything is not helpful. It's too vast. To be told that when you're older, you can do anything a man can do isn't helpful either. I didn't want to be a man. What does it mean to be a [00:16:00] woman?” So that's really how she sets up this book is right?
Yeah. Like. These people who went to feminism in the seventies, like they were searching for this answer. What does it mean to be a woman? And, you know, lucky for us, Jenna, um, John and Stacy figured it out. It's really important to just put John first. You know what I mean? Just because like, he's the head of the household, right? The spiritual leader. And so even though Stacy wrote like, you know, 99% of this book, uh, John’s name is first and you know, everything is approved by him. But tell me what you think about this, the way she's setting this all up.
Jenna: Yeah. Um, you know, I, I think the problem here is prescriptive versus descriptive. So there are a lot of women and I can even relate to some of these questions that she's asking, you know, she sets up this, like, what are the things that you dreamed about as a girl and all these things. But my problem was as a very naive, mainliner coming into this, like I just did not realize that like even going into [00:17:00] college, it was a bit of a shock for me that not all churches were feminist.
It just, I kind of assumed that like my church had women pastors, and I didn't really understand the extent to which other churches didn't necessarily like, believe that women were the core of like the future, you know? And that's, that's just what I'd been raised with. Like, I had been taught that I was gonna grow up and be a pastor so many times that I was like, forming this, like, what are Stacy asked in the book?
Like, what are the dreams? Like every little girl dreams of this. And I was like, yeah, every little girl dreams to like own her own business or her ministry, or like to be leading these things. Like I just. And that I was seeing it more represented in the evangelical churches. These, even these soft complementarian churches, I was hearing more women preach and have ministries and have book deals and be famous and be, you know, professors at this university than I ever saw in the liberal mainline church back then.
Danielle: So you did, so you did not perceive this book, like as [00:18:00] anti-feminist, but sort of like filling in a gap within the feminist Christian movement almost?
Jenna: I was so naive. I was so I didn't understand.
Danielle: I mean, that's, and it's beautiful in some ways that's like so beautiful, you know, and I wanna honor that. Mm.
Jenna: Here's my problem is that I got to the end where they're talking about, like, you need a man and a man's role in what gender roles are. And I checked out real fast. I felt betrayed. I felt stabbed in the back. I was like, I was on board with you for a lot of this book and at least could relate to some of these questions, and I didn't really feel the need for a man.
It was like, every woman wants to be romanced. I was like, what? That means. Okay, sure. Whatever, like, yeah, I can go along with this, but then when she got to, like, you need a man to be, and I was like, what we've just spent this whole time talking about warrior princesses and Arwen and, you know, like all my heroes.
And it's like, the reason that I love these women was not the reason she did. She loved these women because they were rescued by a prince. And I love these women because they went on adventures and, you know, they're daring and all [00:19:00] these Disney princesses, the reason I liked them was because they fought back and they were independent and , you know, they had their own minds and opinions and, uh, she liked them because they ended up kissing the man at the end, which was like the least interesting part to me.
Danielle: I mean, yeah. So like the cover is of like a, a woman with like long hair and flowy skirts and stuff, walking towards a castle. So yeah, the theme from the get go is princess. And so here's the deal. Did you know about Wild at Heart when you read this book, when you first read this book?
Jenna: Yeah. Um, so I kind of knew like around that time I was going to a Methodist church, but then also I was part of this more conservative evangelical church, um, as for student ministry. Um, so my Sunday morning, um, church, I remember one of the guys there saying he did not resonate with Wild at Heart. He said it was, it was really wildly offensive to him, in fact, because he's like, I'm a scholar, he's like, and I'm pretty good at what I do.
And you know, these men that were at Baylor were saying. this does not [00:20:00] relate to us at all. Like we're readers. We're, you know, we're the type of guys who think a successful man is one who can provide for his family through his business, not through his bare hands, you know, and they kind of thought this was pretty barbaric. This, you know, thought of this guy having to like go shoot guns and be warfare. And like talking about all the boys are just naturally drawn toward weapons and they were like what kind of kids are these people raising, you know? So, so it did not resonate with the men in my life at all. Like they were not pro Wild at Heart at all. Um, for the most part, um, there were some, of course that were like, yeah, let's go have camping retreats and things and reclaim wildness, but yeah.
Danielle: Yeah. So, so we've already kind of talked about it. This is basically a book written for women to say like your deepest desire is you are a princess, you know, who wants to be rescued, right? And then they kind of muddy the waters a little bit. Like first you need to be rescued by God. Then you need to be rescued by man, right, in that order.
But I just wanna tell you, if you go to [00:21:00] wildatheart.org, um, you know, John Stacey Eldridge are still going strong. These books sold millions of copies. Wild at Heart came out in 2001. And I think that's really important to say that Captivating was written and published in the wake of how popular Wild at Heart was, which is all about men.
If you go to wildatheart.org, you can click on the “real men” button. And it says this, “Real men, your core passions are you have a battle to fight and adventure to live, and a beauty to rescue. Your deepest question is, do I have what it takes? You can become a warrior and join the great warrior.” I think that's Jesus, but they just have a picture of a tiger, you know. “…in his battle against evil.”
Okay. And then, you know, “Your restoration is what is Christianity supposed to do to a person?” And then sexual wholeness is, you know, healing, your sexuality, whatever that means. So that's under real men. Under Captivating women, it says, “Your core desires are to be romanced, and romance plays an irreplaceable role in unveiling [00:22:00] your beauty.” I don't know what that all means. Okay. Then “your deepest question is you will, will I be chosen, wanted, seen, and fought for.” You know, “you have to find your true love by going to God first.” “Your restoration involves healing of the feminine heart, which is central to Jesus' mission,” which again does not make sense to me.
And then “living from a free heart is what you'll do. You'll love when you're finally free.” So all of this is like religious gobbledy goo in a way, but then it's just so sad. The stark binaries that are here, and you've already nailed the entire problem with this book, which is that John and Stacy were like, this is how it's for every person. Right? Like, and we could have avoided so much sadness. Jenna. If, if, if evangelical Christians weren’t obsessed with doing that.
Jenna: Well, and I'm thinking, especially, um, you know, in my heart is all the queer girls who read. And maybe they didn't feel like this for [00:23:00] men, but they were told you will. I mean, literally every page is all women desire, men, all women desire to be romanced, all desire, all women do this. It, I've tried to search the book for like how many times the word, every appears. But so much of this is in second person that a lot of it is also like, you want this, you. It almost reads like hypnotism, you know, I don't wanna like go so far as to say like mind control, but it really does. It's like, you want this, you will want this. And it's just so heavy handed, that I think had she written this as a memoir of like, she wants this and Stacy talking about like, what's the greatest desire of her own heart, I wouldn't really have much of a problem with it. I wouldn’t agree, I disagree with her theology, but I think it would be okay. But the problem where it for me is that she comes into this from all women desire this thing, all women dreamed of this as little girls, all women had this, you know, desire within them to be beautiful and have jewels and to play in high heels.
And if we're honest with ourselves, a lot of us did not, you know? [00:24:00]
Danielle: Yeah, I think this is a great time for people just to spend, you know, some more time really thinking about what are your desires outside of these confines of these books that you maybe read, right, to get answers. And most people read these books because maybe they wanted to be in a relationship or they were part of a church group or other people wanted to do that.
But I agree, like I was reading that first chapter and, like, she's talking about how much she loved movies like Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, all this stuff. And she's like, you know, “deep down I wanted to be the heroin and have my hero come for me. Why am I embarrassed to tell you this? I simply loved feeling, wanted and fought for.
This desire is set deep in the heart of every little girl and every woman.” You know, just stuff like that. It's like, it's so ridiculous. Okay. Is it okay if I read one more to you? Because I'm like this, so all stood out to me too. Okay. Okay. And then they try to put these caveats in and then it actually makes it worse.
So she says “Now being romanced, isn't all that a woman wants. And John and I are [00:25:00]certainly not saying that a woman ought to derive the meaning of her existence from whether or not she is being, or has been romanced by a man… but don't you see that you want this?” And it's like want, is italicized, “to be desired, to be pursued by the one who loves you to be someone's priority?”
And then this is the next sentence. “Most of our addictions as women flare up when we feel that we are not loved or sought after.” So. She's like, okay, we're not saying this is like the highest aim in life, but like, don't you see that you want this? And then if you don't get it, you're going, you know, be addicted to something it's just like, oh my gosh.
Jenna: Yeah, they go farther. Um, let me read this one to you.
Danielle: Okay. Give it to me.
Jenna: Um, oh my God, let me find it. Okay. Says “very woman thinks this when there's actually, oh, I was gonna say like, that's a problem because there's so much variety out there about what drives us as humans. Cause we are humans. We are not just women. We are [00:26:00] actual human people.
Um, so they go so far as to say that women are not, “when women are not being pursued romantically, they wither like a flower that no one waters anymore.” If a, they use the metaphor in the next sentence. There's a lot of metaphors in here, but you, “if you are not being pursued romantically,” assuming by a man, cause this is a very heteronormative tape complementary book, um, “that you will wither like a flower known waters and it will be as if a light has been turned off.
We've all seen these women. It's like a light has been turned off when they are not being pursued by a man.” That's what, “romance is,” quote, “what makes our hearts come alive. You know that somewhere deep down. You know this.” So that's what messed
Danielle: Okay. So.
Jenna: me up was that somewhere deep down, inside, beyond my lack of caring about men, my ambivalence toward marriage, it was somewhere deep down inside me and everyone in my life. Literally every single person I knew said that, that it [00:27:00] was true that everyone had to want this. And so it was a like, no wonder I had this huge identity crisis and a three month depression spiral. When I finally figured out that I'm not very good at being a straight person.
So if that's how we have to relate, not only ourselves and to men, but also to God as a romantic partner, how am I supposed to process that? Like, like, you know, I don't know, have any idea what to do with that. Like, I don't, I don't know how an aromantic person is supposed to like, have a relationship with God, if the root of all holiness, this is a quote, “the root of all holiness is romance.”
Danielle: What, what does that even mean? Jenna that's the other thing, is John and Stacey are just talking outta their butts the whole time. Like there's hardly any scripture in here and they just sort of like make grandiose statements like that, but then don't back it up with anything, with anything.
Jenna: Right .
Danielle: Um, I, this is really weird, and you can tell me if I'm like really off base here.
Jenna: Go for it.
Danielle: But, uh, you know, we're diving into books like, [00:28:00] well, Krispin right now is reading, you know, I Kissed Dating Goodbye. And I'm really into like the timeline of all this. So like I Kissed Dating Goodbye came out in 1997, Wild at Heart was 2001. And then Captivating is 2005. And to me that's like a really normal and natural progression.
Right. You know, to me, it does seem to be in publishing there was this huge kickoff of books like this too that were so, so, so prescriptive about relationships and what the absolute best relationships look like. And for me, Captivating was written so that the men who took Wild at Heart could have compliant wives.
Like I don't see any other reason for this to be published, except they were like, oh shit, all these women are too feministy, you know, to like, be chill with these guys that are obsessed with being warriors for God and rescuing a beauty. We now need to write a book telling women, uh, you’re a beauty who really wants to be rescued.
Does that make sense? It's almost so [00:29:00] blatant. And I'm super pissed at like the editors, I'm super pissed at the publishing houses. Like I'm, I'm pissed at all of them.
Jenna: Well, I think there is also no small coincidence, um, of what was happening in the world. In 2001 to 2005 in this military industrial complex wedded with the evangelical church of that, we have to breed these boys to be soldiers and to be patriotic, and to wield these weapons. And the, it's just part of what was happening in the culture at the time was it was not just about men being leaders, it was about men being warriors, because that's what it means to be a good Christian is to go fight in Afghanistan, to fight in Iraq.
Danielle: Oh, my God. You're so right. Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. But it is fascinating too, right? Like, I, I totally agree with you there. I would never have thought about that, but just this idea that he kept saying in Wild at Heart like, you want to rescue a beauty and then, oh, here we go. Now we have a book [00:30:00] with studies that young women can take so they can learn how to be a damsel in distress, basically. And it's just so upsetting, and it’s done so much damage. Like when I posted about this book, you know, on Instagram or on Twitter, like my DMs are just flooded. I would say hundreds of people, you know, telling me these just really hard stories and, you know, some are, some are so intense, but there's a really common one that I think you can probably speak to us today.
And I experienced this too a little bit is like when we read books like Captivating, we were like, that's not me. So is there something wrong with me? As a woman, right? If you identify as a woman and you're like, well, I don't actually want all these things that Stacy keeps saying, I do want, like, then the problem's gotta be me.
And that's just so sad, but I'm, I'm assuming if I'm experiencing that, then there's so many other people that are experiencing that in even deeper ways too, as they read this.
Jenna: Well, and I think her evidence, like you said, there's not much scripture in here. Um, and her evidence of like, see, look at [00:31:00] this, this is proof is these fictional tropes. And so I think that we gotta reverse engineer the problem. And we say since 2005, there have been a lot more, um, diverse stories being told.
So even just looking at the Disney Pixar, um, machine, you've got Brave, you've got Frozen you've Moana and Encanto, Turning Red, like just super recently, you know, so those Disney princess tropes are really expanding. And I think people have called on them to do that, to tell more diverse stories and to, um, have more dynamics to women that even in stories like the Princess and the Frog, like she's running a business, this is not, um, you know, Sleeping Beauty, that's longing for a prince to come and singing in a forest. Like she's got her own life going on and she has her own agenda and her own future planned out. And so I think the ways that we tell women's stories have changed so much since 2005, um, that I really think you can't necessarily get away with this book.
If Captivating was written today, it would not do well at all, because you would have so [00:32:00]many women that are now being represented in media. You know, we've got, you know, more mainstream queer stories, more diverse perspectives out there, that you can't say that clearly the only story to be told is the girl who longs for prince charming, because that's not the only story being told anymore.
Danielle: Well, that's a good, that's a way to take me out of my rage and put me back in our context today. And I think that was really helpful, Jenna. And it also made me think, cause she talks all the time about yeah, these stories that she really loves, like, you know, Cinderella, all that. Like is there a Disney or Pixar movie that you were like, yeah, that's me, that's you know what I dream about?
Jenna: Yeah, I think Brave was really fun in that way of that. She's out for her own hand. Meredith, you know, is trying to be fitted with all these suitors, there's these suitors that are coming to be like winning her hand in a contest. And she's like, I've got this, I'm gonna fight the, and it's really funny. We like to play in the pun arrow, arrow. So like an archery, you know, bow and arrow kind of thing. So she's kind of our, aromanticism symbol, but the one that really [00:33:00] nailed it, the one where I was crying in a theater was Frozen 2.
Danielle: Oh
Jenna: So throughout this, you know, Elsa has not had a, a love interest in the first movie. That was, it was about her sister and her sister's love story.
Um, and the whole thing she's just really kind of down on romance in general, which seemed really wise that it turned out to be a really smart thing. Then in the second one, you know, you've got the sister already paired off. And so you'd think this would naturally be the movie where the main character gets a love interest.
And she is, has this teaser of there's this voice singing to her. And it sounds like a female voice. So the natural thing you're thinking is there's gonna be a princess for her. This is gonna be the first gay love story. There's, or maybe they won't confirm it, but she's gonna have a female partner at the end of this, but she doesn't. What happens at the end of that movie, spoil alert, is it's her.
She says she comes into this big iceberg place, this magical iceberg, and it's, she's singing, show me yourself, show, show yourself, you know, show me your power [00:34:00] show, who you are. This voice that's been singing to me, that's been calling to me. And in any other Disney princess trope, this would be the prince at the end who's like, I'm here. I have arrived. You've found me on your great quest for love and they kiss and they ride off in the sunset. But instead, you know what, it’s her mom is there and says you are the one you've been waiting for your whole life. It's you, you are the one that fulfills you and completes you.
And no one else can do that. And I think that was when that broke me. That , that was like, that's me. That's me on screen is it's not that I'm waiting for a prince charming, as I was promised by Stacey Eldridge. It's not that I was waiting for even a girl in my life to be that, you know, non heteronormative expression of romantic love, you know, it wasn't that I was just experiencing internalized homophobia, you know, it's it's that I am okay alone, and I don't need a partner to be a whole person. Um, and so that just broke so much of what I [00:35:00] learned from Captivating was that, you know, this complementarian view of you have to have like this other person, they even say in there that you're kind of like two halves of a whole, that God created us half man and half woman, and we have to be together to be a full person. And none of that is true. And so seeing that show yourself song from Frozen, just rewrote it.
Danielle: Such a good song.
Jenna: It, it rewrote me from the inside out.
Danielle: Oh, that is so beautiful. I love that so much. I feel like, you know, I didn't have that kind of experience with like any Disney or Pixar movies, but I really did love Mulan growing up and, you know, I think all the cool kids like Mulan back in the day. And recently I've just so enjoyed how like every Disney and or Pixar movie is kind of about like, Mommy issues, you know?
And so I really love some of those because, you know, we all got stuff to work out and, uh, I've been really like Turning Red was I, I sobbed, like my kids [00:36:00] are like, this is a fine movie, but like, why is mommy crying so much? I'm like, it's the inner red panda, like the, you know, all this stuff. I loved it. And it's just so much better than being bound to like, there's one way to be a lady, you know, there's one way to be.
And here's the deal. If this was just a book about how to be a woman, we could probably laugh about it even more than we already are. But when you say that's how God ordained it, right, now, we're talking trauma. You know, now we're talking like straight up oppression, right?
Jenna: Yeah. Yeah.
Danielle: Okay. I know you kept on reading this. Is there anything else you wanna kind of say that stood out to you? I mean. Obviously, even if you're just not a woman who has the exact same, you know, what do we wanna call it, desires, as Stacy Eldridge? Cause I, I think she really does love the whole princess thing. I think that's clear, and I think there are [00:37:00] other people, but like what was it like specifically for someone who's aromantic, you know, to be told over and over again, like this has to be your desire?
Jenna: Yeah, like you said, like you do start to believe that you're really broken and because she emphasizes so much of that. It's a little bit easier for me when it's something that it's like, um, the purity culture talks, because it's like you have a boyfriend, here's how to stay pure. And it's like, well, I don't have a boyfriend, so it doesn't really apply to me. And I can kind of, you know, brush that off about being like, this is the message for someone else. And it's probably really useful for them, but it's not for me. Um, this one she's talking about, like somewhere deep down, like you do have this inside, you, everyone has this.
And you know, I, I was a little bit almost surprised that there was no talk of like conversion therapy or anything like that in the book. Um, but she even talked like there there's some very, uh, specific stuff about, uh, sex and genitals and, you know, they, they [00:38:00] use actual, um, words in there, which I think seemed more serious to me than the purity talk absence and stuff.
You know, that kind of like, oh no, you know, like our lady parts, you know, like she, she talks about some of these “bad things” in the world and yes, she credits them to Satan and, you know, renouncing the agreements of the evil one and all that sort of stuff. Like there's some very edridge-y stuff in here. Um, that's actually one of the things that harmed most is that a lot.
Theology around this charismatic movement that was going on at the time was very much that you can pray it away. And I wanted her credit that she does talk about taking medicine for mental illness. And so she's not saying, you know, pray away your depression, but I took that away from this. And, and from this whole movement of the church that I was in and like this whole culture around it was, um, let me tell you something. I tried to pray away a kidney infection because I wanted to be like the lady in this book that had the dizziness spells. Yeah, no, no, no. I went to a women's retreat at a charismatic church instead of going to the ER.
Danielle: Whoa. [00:39:00]
Jenna: I should have gone to the ER, but you know what I did, I wanted to be a shiny testimony. Like the woman in this book that had the spiritual attack, and she even goes through, there's a whole section about like one woman has an asthma attack and the others are trying to help her. And there's like all these different like messages that they're all taking away from this at the same time.
And so there's, there's just medical stuff in here that like, yeah. I ended up having to drive myself to the ER in the next morning, very, very sick. That was not my, best moment but then later, like that was really the start of my faith deconstruction was trying to pray away this anxiety and this depression, and it was not a quote, “spiritual attack.”
It was a generalized anxiety disorder and clinical depression and undiagnosed ADHD, and a lot of other things going on that I needed professional help for, but I'd been trained by people like them and this whole movement around it, that what I really needed was to learn the lesson that God was trying to show me by giving me depression and anxiety and sickness and colds and infections and things that, you [00:40:00] know, if I just learned my lesson and prayed the right way and, you know, surrendered to Jesus or pressed into Jesus, or was set free or whatever, found spiritual healing, that I would find physical and emotional healing.
And, uh, that is not the case. So, uh, please seek professional help if that is something that you feel like you need.
Danielle: Oh, my gosh. I mean, the charismatic stuff is so sticky, like, so, so sticky when we get into these, you know, these things and I don't think we have done enough work, like understanding, like how damaging these books have been to people. That's why I'm like, I don't wanna be talking about this with you. I'd rather be talking about a million other fun things with you, but it deserves to be talked about because it had impact and it had power, right, in the lives of so many, um, primarily women. Right. And, and like that deserves to be studied and explored and you know, we'll reread it so you guys don't have to, and we'll tell you, this is full of shit. Like it just is. I, I just, even as we're chatting here, Jenna, I was just like flipping through the book.[00:41:00]
And I came to one page there at the end. Is it okay if I read something to you again? You tell me which of these three you fit into. Okay. This is gonna be like our little game.
Jenna: Oh, yes. I know it's fine. But I'm so excited.
Danielle: Okay. “So women pretty much fall into one of these three categories, dominating women, desolate women or arousing women.”
Jenna: Mm
Danielle: Okay. The first two are what happens to Eve as a resolve of the fall. Spoiler alert. The third is a woman whose femini-femininity is being restored by God who offers it to others. So the arousing woman is the godly woman. Sorry, spoiler again. Uh so Jenna, which one are you? Are you dominating, desolate, or arousing?
Jenna: So let me tell you the data, I am an ENTJ on the Myers Briggs. I am an Enneagram three wing four. And extrovert to the max with, uh, ADHD. So I have like all of that aggression, I am 100% the domineering woman. And I was quite insulted by this, that she thought that was [00:42:00] a bad thing. Cause I'm like, I am strong. I am independent. I am a feminist. Like, well, even at the time I read this, I was like, how dare you come out against domineering women. We are amazing domineering women. Like well-behaved women do not make history. I have that on a sticker. Like that's, you know, even at the time.
Danielle: Well, I'm sorry, but you're a result of the fall then, Jenna.
Jenna: Which I get it that, you know, she was saying these like really controlling women, that can't be vulnerable and can't access their emotions. And yeah, that's legit. Like you need to learn to be vulnerable. You need to learn to have empathy for other people, but being a strong woman is not a bad thing.
Danielle: That's not really what she's saying. What she says is that, you know, the dominating woman, like fears the wildness that God put in their man, they are drawn to his strength, but then they're about taming him once they've caught him, they say things like, I don't want you riding motorcycle anymore. I don't want you hanging around your friends so much. Why do you need to go off on all those adventures? And women who make, okay, so dominating women are women who make their husband's pee sitting down.[00:43:00]
Jenna: Yes. That's an actual quote with the book, by the way.
Danielle: Yes. That's what I'm saying. Okay. So I thought at first I was a dominating woman until I read what a desolate woman is like, you know what a desolate woman is like” “Desolate women don't seem at first pass to be all that emasculating. They don't attack or dominate, but neither do they allure. Their message is simply, there's nothing here for you. The lights are off. They have dimed their radiance. No one is home. A man at her presence feels uninvited, unwanted. It's a form of rejection.” Okay. So I'm like, yeah, that's me. I give off these very strong vibes. Like, do not come. No men, you have nothing for me. I worked in retail, you know, like so many years of my life, and I was just so good at like, not being rude, right. Nothing, you could never say I was rude, but like my resting bitch face was legendary. Like the businessmen got nowhere with me, [00:44:00] nothing with me, again. Now I'm like, okay, I’m autistic, this all makes sense, blah, blah, blah. But I was just like, that's me, but that's so this is so disturbing that this is an entire category of women.
She just plucked these things out of her butt and just decided there's only three kinds of women and one's desolate, and you're desolate because you are like giving off vibes that you don't need men. And I think she also says you wear like baggy clothes and stuff.
Jenna: Oh,
Danielle: And you're not alluring.
Jenna: Okay. That one, I can relate a little bit more. I was thinking the desolate woman, when was like, when you're like really passive. And really like, okay, sure. Whatever you want. Like they don't offer the warrior part of the warrior princess. They get the princess part out.
Danielle: I think that’s part of it too.
Jenna: warrior part. OK. Yeah. I was like, I'm not, let's say like the simpering woman who's just like, sure, whatever you want. I don't care. We can go wherever we want for dinner. Like I'm not gonna choose. I don't have any opinions. Like I'm not that person, but I definitely do have like the, aromantic vibes, like in a big bubble around me. And it's a nice little protective bubble.
Danielle: I love it.
Jenna: It's amazing.
Danielle: And it's funny, cause I, I told this to my counselor, right? Like [00:45:00] I, in high school, I really thought I figured out the key to being human, which is like, just be as unthreatening as possible. And like all the pretty popular girls will just not see you as a threat. So it's not a big deal.
And all the stupid bros will not even like look at you and like you get to just lead an interesting life. It's pretty awesome. And uh, my counselor's like, yeah, that's like a pretty Autistic way of thinking of things.
I'm just, you know, taking the Stacy Eldridge, evil, fallen, um, Eve way of, of life, I guess the desolate woman. That's what we should title this podcast episode.
Jenna: Terrible. Please don’t do that.
Danielle: So, Jenna, I just wondered if you have sort of like a message or something you'd wanna say to people who, you know, read this book did not feel seen, felt shame, you know, tried to be this woman that could somehow mold themself into a princess whose only goal in life is to be rescued. Like what are [00:46:00] some things you would say to them?
I'm sorry if that's like too much pressure to put on you.
Jenna: not at all. Um, I always wanna say this in like almost every podcast, I guess I do, because I end up talking about this all the time, because it's everywhere. This is not just one book. This is in all of those magazines from the time we’re teenagers all the way through, it's in every commercial that sex sells, you know, it's on all these movies in society, it's in the church everywhere. Um, God, like more books than you can count besides this. Um, You are not broken if you don't want romance. You are not broken if you don't want sex, there is nothing wrong with you if you don't want men, there is, you know, we have this perception that there is a normal and there is an abnormal, and that's why we're called queer.
Is because it's weird and that's okay. And we're good. And we are beautiful. God has created and made you exactly the way you are. It's not that God permits your queerness or that God allows [00:47:00]your queerness, or even that God includes your queerness. God designed your queerness. God is queer. God made you queer in their image.
And that is beautiful. You know, I would say that there’s so much variety. Like how could we think that there is a gender binary or there's only straight people because you look at how much variety there is in creation and our creator. God made us higher than these things. You know, like looking at how many birds there are, even how many wildflowers grow behind your dumpster.
No, one's gonna see those. You know. They're not there to impress anybody. They're not there for a purpose. They're just there because God thought they were beautiful. And how many varieties of wildflower there are, look at that and say the whole rainbow of human experience is God created and designed and he calls it good.
Danielle: Oh, that's a beautiful message. Oh, Jenna. I just think that's such a really [00:48:00]expansive way of looking at this. I did, I did have one last question for you, um, which is like, thinking about asexuality in particular, maybe not aromanticism. I just wonder like why Christianity has not like, talked about that, promoted that, it seems like it would sort of be in line with some of their stuff.
You know what I mean? Like, um, maybe assuming people should be asexual up until a certain point. I don't know. I'm just wondering, like, why has that really been erased? Is that going back to that fear of labels? I think in, in light of books like Captivating, it's clear that asexuality and aromanticism does not help the patriarchy, which is why it's totally dismissed, but am I missing something?
Like what, why is that? Why is there just this big erasure?
Jenna: Yeah. So everybody kind of on the surface thinks that of like, oh, you're asexual. So that must have been really easy for you in purity culture. And to some degree, yeah, I was really on board with Barlow Girl. We're not dating, we're just waiting now. I didn't really love the lyrics about [00:49:00]like someday my prince will come for me, but I loved the things about like, we don't have to have sex.
And I was like, yes, I'm in. Here's the problem, is that the waiting, you have to be waiting for something there's, waiting implies that there is an end to the waiting, that you are waiting for something for a purpose. There's a, there's a train coming down the track, you know, and you're just at the station.
I just wanted to be on the train myself. Like I, I was just like, no, why are we waiting around? Like, let's just go, you know, like, just do it. Just, just live your life, you know, who cares about how to be a godly woman or what is a woman or what does a woman mean? Just be a person, be a good person, you know?
So that's where I kind of discovered, oh, this is a queer thing. Um, because it doesn't fit their mandate. So like you said, the patriarchy and Christianity in general, the, the Christian industrial complex requires marriage because marriage is how, heterosexual marriage, is how you produce children. And then children from these stable church going families then preferably white, of course in middle class, then [00:50:00] produce more members for the church and more members for the church.
You have, the more giving they are, the more tied and loyal you are to the industry, the more money you're going to pour back into the industry. So from a capitalistic lens, they require everyone to be heteronormative. Not only because it fits their theology, but because this is so tied up in the survival of the institution itself.
Once you see that it's like, oh, this is bullshit. Sorry. I dunno if we can cuss on this podcast, but this is bullshit.
Danielle: Oh, you can.
Jenna: So I think like that's a really key thing is that they were never welcoming of asexuality in the purity movement because there always had to be a want there. That you were broken if you don't have this lust.
So the whole point of, from your teenager on is you can't watch porn and you can't do this. And it's like, well, why not? Why can't you masturbate? Like, why not? Like it's not a sexual thing, it's just a bodily reaction. And they're like, what do you mean? Like, look at, you know, I understand why lusting after a real person is wrong, but like, what if you're just like making up fictional scenarios in [00:51:00] your head or you're just touching body parts that sound good?
Or, you know, whatever. Like the biggest thing that got me was like, we can't tickle ourselves. But we can, you know, get ourselves off. So it's like, why is this wrong? I don't understand. Um, but you know it's like this whole thing was formed around this power movement of like, you can't have these sexual experiences and you desperately want them.
The whole purity movement is this very Stacy Eldridge, everyone wants this, you have to have it. And you know that you want this deep down, even if you're not.
Danielle: I mean, I don't know if she talks about the book, but it doesn't seem like she talks about women wanting sex a lot.
Jenna: No, but she does
Danielle: But instead talks about them wanting to be
Jenna: I think that if you went to Stacy Eldridge and said, so when you imply romance, that means completely sexless, right, like asexual, like you, you're not having any sex in this bed? She'd probably like, no, definitely not. That's not what I mean.
Danielle: Oh, okay. Yeah. So, cause I'm like, she doesn't really, she doesn't [00:52:00] really spell out women's desires. Very well.
Jenna: Not too much. She just a little bit more than others people do, but you know, for the most part, not saying like your sexual, you know, desires, she talks about your romantic desires because that's a church appropriate way of saying sexual desires. I don't think anybody's coming into this, assuming that this is a, you know, completely celibate romance. So, and in fact, if you do try to live that life, no one will A, believe you or B, welcome you into their church. Even people who try to live this queer celibate life are kicked out. Like they're, they're not accepted. So it, it's not like don't do that. Like , you'll never be accepted by them. Yeah.
Danielle: Yeah. And so I think as, as we're kind of wrapping up here, I just wonder if you have, obviously I wanna, I want you to go ahead and tell people one more time where they can find you some resources, if they wanna learn more about aromanticism and asexuality. Am I saying that right? A romanticism and asexuality and, [00:53:00] um, what are some like kind of basic things we can do to be more inclusive to those communities?
Like, you know. Especially people who wanna be progressive or who are changing their theology when it comes to gender and sexuality, like what are some things we can do?
Jenna: Yeah. Um, don't be like the Eldridges. So the number one thing is to cut out this language of everyone wants this. To stop assuming that your experience is everyone's experience of the world that, you know,
Danielle: Say it again.
Jenna: Okay, stop assuming that your experience is everyone's experience of the world. Um, and that, you know, if you're talking about singles, not all singles will end up married.
If you can't include a happily single 70 year old woman in your singleness sermon, you are not qualified to preach on singleness. If you can't include somebody who doesn't have a desire, does not have sexual desires, does not have romantic desires, then don't [00:54:00] preach on it. You know, if all of your examples are only for people with children, you're not being inclusive. Even if you mean to include gay couples with children, you're still not being inclusive of people without them. And so, I mean, I think that we have to broaden this beyond just like, oh, I'm being so inclusive by like making it any gender applies, or like any race applies, and just putting it in a white heteronormative middle class box.
You know, and just not labeling it as such. Um, you have to be, go beyond that. Actually get to know people, get to know people in your community that don't fit the norm. And if there are not people who don't fit that norm, ask yourself why. Why do people not feel comfortable coming? Maybe your church website is labeled as for families.
Are you a family driven ministries? You know, are the pictures on your website of adults without kids? Are they all white? Are they all straight, you know? And having these more representative identities there. There is it clearly [00:55:00] marked on your church or your ministry or your organization or your club's website that you are welcoming of people who are not straight and who are not cis, you know? And if those things aren't clearly explicitly labeled, that's why you're not getting a more diverse population.
Danielle: Exactly. Oh, Jenna, thank you so much for coming on here and reading this book. I, you know, sounds like you're able to laugh through it, but also like, I, I, I don't take this slightly. You did. You took one for the team. Thank you for doing that. And, uh, yeah, just remind us again where people can find you, if they wanna find out more about these things.
Jenna: Yeah, you can find me on Twitter at Jenna_ Dewitt, and then you can find me on my blog, invisiblecakesociety.com.
Danielle: Invisible cake, society.com. Okay, well thank you so much, Jenna.
Jenna: Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks so much.[00:56:00]
