Holymotherforkingshirtballs
DL & Krispin discuss the season finale of The Good Place Season 1, titled "Michael's Gambit." We talk about recognizing rotten systems (that claim to be good) and also what's next for the podcast!
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TRANSCRIPT
Welcome to This is the Bad Place, a podcast about the NBC TV show, The Good Place, and the journey of two ex evangelicals leaving white evangelicalism.
DL: Welcome to the big episode. That's what I'm calling it.
Krispin: It was gonna be a big episode. It was gonna be a big reveal. Except somebody, and it wasn't me, did the big reveal mid…
DL: Mid season. I know, I was like, I ruined everything, but I'm so glad I did. I'm so glad we've been talking about the twist for a few episodes now.
But today we're talking about episode 13 of season one of The Good Place Michael's Gambit, which has gone down in history as one of the best season finales plot twists in movie television.
Krispin: a big deal.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: is, just in one sentence: this is the episode when everybody finds out that they are indeed in the bad place, not the good place.
DL: And how do they find out?
Krispin: Because Eleanor figures it out.
DL: So I think that's so important. You gotta say, Eleanor. Now, Jason technically figured it out.
Krispin: He said it was a prank show. I’m so glad it wasn’t cancelled after this season.
DL: Mike Shore was, friends with the guy who made Lost. I always forget his name, Damon
Krispin: want to say it's [00:02:00] John Locke. but that is not it.
DL: He's good friends with John Locke. I'm sure Mike Shore believes he is friends with John Locke in his mind, because I'm sure he's read all of it.
But, and the guy who made Lost was like, listen, you need to have it figured out. Before you start this. So all of season 2 was all written. So they had all of season two was all written. So they knew they were going to have a season two, which if you watch this episode 13, you're like, of course, there's a season two. It ends on a cliffhanger.
Krispin: Yeah, Yes. But,
I'm sure listeners can point to shows that were very niche and artsy in this way. And they end in this cliffhanger place, and they're like, just kidding, it got canceled.
DL: I'm so glad,
Krispin: Yeah. So I'm so glad because it really, this episode brings so much relief and intensity for me at the same time.
And, but I guess before we get into it, [00:03:00] we should do a synopsis of the episode. from Mark Evan Jackson.
Mark Evan Jackson: I'm Mark Evan Jackson. I play Sean. in, today's episode, we discuss the season one finale, chapter 13, Michael's Gambit. in this episode, while Eleanor, Tahani, Chidi, and Jason attempt to decide which two should go to the Bad Place, Eleanor makes the startling realization that they are already in the Bad Place.
Before Michael is able to reboot their memories, Eleanor hides a note to herself in Janet's mouth. Eleanor is rebooted with a new soulmate, and a somewhat altered afterlife. In flashbacks, we see the development of Michael's plan to torture the humans. Fans of The Good Place will remember this episode as the one in which not a bunch happens, and then we go home.[00:04:00]
Krispin: They are room the whole time, mostly..
DL: Yeah. I find it fascinating
Krispin: I appreciate that Michael gets flashbacks
DL: that’s true, and that’s the thing about Season 2. And if recap it (I don’t think we will) It would be most fun to talk about Michael as a character.
But anywho, they did, there were some flashbacks there was some Michael stuff. I am wondering, can you get into the mind space of where you were in January [00:05:00] 2017, right? This is right around Trump getting inaugurated,
Do you remember watching this episode?
Krispin: Not Really, to be honest, I was trying to think about it, but it's like, it's one of those things that's like such a powerful thing that memory has been like rewritten over and over.
DL: I feel the same. I'm like, I don't remember watching it for the first time. But we had no clue of the twist.
Krispin: Huh, I feel like even watching it now, even knowing the twist. I still go through some of those emotions as we watch Eleanor come to this conclusion. But, I do think that, yeah, watching Michael as an architect, you're, it doesn't, like, click yet. Even though you're wait a minute, is this? This doesn't seem like it's heaven, but he's creating, Anyway, I, I, do remember feeling confused, and then, My mind being blown, but I can't, like, actually remember sitting down and watching
DL: Basically, I was in Chidi mode, right?
So I'm trying to think about the ethical conundrums, but then the episode starts to pile it on really thick, right? The demons keep coming up with new ways to make it now they have to re negotiate again, who's gonna go to the bed and I was, like, starting to get so overwhelmed. And then all of a sudden, boom, it comes out of nowhere, and then Kristen Bell says, Eleanor, sorry, Eleanor says
Krispin: says like Holy mother forking shirt balls.
DL: This is the bad place, and then Maybe we're just getting too quickly into favorite things. I think my all time favorite thing is Michael's laugh
Krispin: That is emblazoned in my mind.
DL: put in a clip of here
Michael [audio clip]: [Laughing]. Oh man, I can't believe you figured it out.
Krispin: And that Sound that we just heard every [00:07:00] time I was thinking about like liking Michael Earlier in the season like that would play that audio clip would play in my mind. I'm like, oh, yeah, I forgot He's a bad guy
DL: Wow. So I think in first The first watch it would be hard to understand the Michael of it all and then this second round it was interesting to just look at the flashbacks before he revealed that versus after And watching all the demons melt down was pretty fun,
Krispin: flashbacks before he revealed that, and all the demons melt down was pretty fun. There Michael has played this prank, but also, like, Sean is you might have to go into retirement, which is like, something that Michael has been talking about the whole time.
And it's that part is actually true. So, it's interesting as you're trying to sort through what is this whole system? Like, the humans are in danger, but Michael is also in danger. But how much danger is he in? And how much should we [00:08:00] care?
Do you want to talk about favorite things?
DL: Yeah, yeah, I do.
Krispin: There weren't that many funny things in this episode
DL: No.
Krispin: One of them, my favorite funny things was Tahani admits that basically she did all this charity work not to help people but to prove herself to her parents and outdo her sister.
She says my only real goal was to snog Ryan Gosling at the Met Ball, and I did it twice.
DL: twice! Oh, really? What I thought, was multiple times. Okay, I thought it was great because Jason, at one point, gets his moment in the sun, ethically. Like he outlines all….
Krispin: you mean ethnically.
I'm saying that because Jason, whenever he says ethics, he says ethnics
I should make [00:09:00] that clear, if people are not very familiar with the show
DL: I didn't remember that. Yeah, so I loved that. Once again, the themes are like this episode starts off with Eleanor being like, Convincing Jason they have to do it. It's the ethical thing for her and Jason to go to the bad place.
They tell Tahani and Chidi and both Chidi and Tahani are like, okay. And I, again, I'm just like, the episode points out a few reasons eventually why Tahani and Chidi, so Tahani and Chidi in this episode have the big moment of recognizing, wait, this is the bad place but we don't belong in the bad place and then they have to have these moments of being told or realizing why they do belong in the bad place.
My whole thing, it was revealed in the first few minutes of this episode why they “belong” because they're fine with sending other people to eternal conscious torment.
But do you [00:10:00] know what the do you remember what the reasons are that Michael tells them or they discover why they actually deserve?
Krispin: my favorite part. Also, I love that Chidi automatically goes to, “It's because I drink almond milk. That's why I'm actually in the bad place”
DL: First he read about how almond production is bad for the environment, to be conscious of the evil. And then to still choose to drink almond milk sometimes.That was like his first thought.
Krispin: That was like his first thought.
For Tahaniz it really was out of selfish motivations. And for Chidi, he says you hurt everyone in your life through your indecision and rigidity.
DL: Yeah, I hated this part. Why do you love it?
Krispin: I thought it was just so [00:11:00] interesting to hear, Like, for them to see themselves in this different light. And I'm not saying that is true, that they deserve the bad place because of it, but this facade of I was a good person, and this whole system. I liked seeing that crumble.
DL: I don't think it crumbled, and I think it was still not the truth. Does that make sense, Uhuh? And so that's why I'm like, I think it's a very complex situation that I would like to unpack. Should I do it now or should we do it later?
Krispin: The clown things really stood out to me again in Eleanor's house.
DL: And I've been, we've been, I've been looking through our materials because we're doing a new project that we'll be talking about looking into evangelical artifacts. And the clowns, for some reason I was really thinking about John Wayne Gacey. He loved loved painting clowns. Okay, then I was thinking about this book someone sent us called Clown Ministry for [00:12:00] Christians.
And it has just has a clown face with the Jesus fish on it. And then the back says, How you can touch lives as a Christian clown for children. Anywho, so I was just thinking about clowns and how creepy they are.
Krispin: that part just felt very like hilarious, but also artsy in a way as well. You have, cause the doors to the bedroom close and play this like circus melody. With the clown face, but it's these two demons behind it, judging, deciding what's going to happen. to the which some people out there would say I know that clowns are all I have a friend who is very afraid of clowns. adult, But yeah, so getting into, this is the Bad Play segment, where we talk about the ethical dilemma.
DL: I think that the ethical dilemma is, again, centered on Tahani [00:13:00] and Chidi. Would they have ever figured out that this was the bad place without Eleanor and Jason without people for whom the system was just screwing them over in every way possible, right?
Or would they have remained in this sort of like privileged bubble being like we deserve to be here, the system worked for us, therefore it must be good and they would never have questioned like the fundamental nature of the toxic system that they're in, right? And they would have kept playing their role becoming more and more toxic, more and more immune, if they continue to stay, right? So I view it as like an allegory of what being privileged in a toxic system does to you. And so for me, Tahani and Chidi are like, terrifying in this, then when they have the realization like, okay, we actually are in the bad place, we didn't make it to the good place, the reasons they come up with and the reasons they're told [00:14:00] are so not it.
And I think that's also really fascinating, is the narratives we can spin as we become aware of systemic injustice, of toxic family systems, of being in a place that we're told. From birth is good. When we're confronted with the realities of people who are like, this actually hasn't been good for me, how do we respond?
This is a question every person, right? Who is a part of say, a high control religion that oppresses like queer people of color, like all of us who grew up like that have had these experiences of being in a system we were told was good and having people be like, actually this. I think this is bad.
I think this is bad news for me, this is bad news for a lot of people. And in my own life, I've seen in really devastating ways, how people who are privileged in that system have responded to those, calls for truth and people can come up with all sorts of reasons why. Now, Michael [00:15:00] basically is Tahani, why do you think you're here?
She's Oh yes, I did give billions and billions away, but my motivations were not pure. So going back to some of these ethical is it actually good if your motivations aren't good, which is totally besides the point.
Krispin: totally besides
DL: I don't give a fuck about people's Intentions at this point, right? We have to talk about impact. We have to talk about impact, okay? So I think that's a total red herring. Then with Chidi, he's Ah, I drink almond milk, and he's so sincere
Krispin: so sincere.
DL: like, I figured it out. Of course, this is what I did wrong. And just No, you hurt everybody in your life with your rigidity and indecisiveness, which, Rigidity and indecisiveness alone are not toxic traits, and in fact, they can be symptoms of Neurodivergence or trauma or personality like.
So to me that really felt flat and . Both of these are just designed to really shame Chidi and ta [00:16:00]Hani. And to get them to be like, Ugh, I'm trying so hard. And I still got it really wrong and it's my fault, and the childhood trauma. Tthat's the other thing. I'm like, Tahani and all her flashbacks, we know that her parents are shitty and her sister is really annoying. Chidi, we don't get any of that. And so I think it's interesting. I think Tahani is this, I think Tahani and Eleanor and Jason all have these elements of like poverty, toxic family systems extreme wealth, like how all of those things can impact a person, right?
And Chidi, to me, seems like somebody with, I don't know if I want to say neurodivergence or mental illness, cause both of those phrases get bandied about, right? But [00:17:00] Chidi very clearly has an anxiety disorder. If not. Obsessive compulsive personality disorder and so I think it just made me uncomfortable to see it being treated in this way.
Now I know the show is doing deeper work but it was just sucked to be like, oh you have OCPD and that hurts everybody and that's your, that makes you bad. I was just like, oh, I hate this, but that does seem like something a demon would say,
Krispin: yes. Totally. Yeah.
DL: That's my rant.
Krispin: Yeah, no, I think, I, it's interesting that you think about Chidi that way.
I think it's true, I think that there's also a way to say, a way of looking at it, that's what if Chidi is just a, obviously Chidi has all this anxiety, but Chidi also is someone seeking to be ethical in a world where that is really difficult. And so I think that's interesting where you can look at tahani or eleanor and say oh This is more about you and your trauma.
and I feel like chidi's experience is an [00:18:00] indictment of the world As it exists. In a way like it's not about cheat's upbringing there, I agree with what you're saying and at the same time like Chidi is a ethics professor. and if you think really hard about these things , there is no simple solution.
And it will like, take you to this point of anxiety, I think.
DL: Yeah. And we've talked about the panopticon thing before and both Chidi and Tehani have the panopticon inside them already. Chidi iss always thinking, how do I be ethical? And he created. This panopticon of there is someone, there is a way to judge who's ethical or not, I will keep that in mind always.
Tahani, I think was, her panopticon was be good and to be seen as successful and all this stuff. And if you are, If you nurture an inner panopticon it makes you more willing to accept a system that operates like that as well. I think both Jason [00:19:00] and Eleanor were like, screw this.
The people who want me to have a panopticon they do not understand my life. The rules are rigged. I gotta do what I gotta do to survive. And so I think that, comes through in how they respond the actual reality of what the good place is.
Krispin: And I thought about the picture of them in this room, trying to sort out the ethics, trying to sort out the right thing while these demons with power keep coming in and throwing in these chaotic elements
DL: and enjoying it. The demons enjoying it.
Krispin: Right. Really made me think about. class And power. in the U. S. and like throughout the world.
DL: Oh my god, Are we gonna go
Krispin: god, are we gonna go here? I'd love to hear You say it. What
DL: I'd love to hear you s say, after you think after listening to me rant and [00:20:00] rave about class
Krispin: did you activate it? yeah, there are, as we think about. The upcoming election and you have this political divide But there's within that.
It just to me it feels increasingly there are people with power wealthy people i'm thinking about like michael and the demons, right? that are Continually trying to put pressure on People that really don't have any power to quote unquote do the right thing. without actually changing the system
DL: Exactly. Yeah. I think that's a good way of putting it because I'm like, Oh, how honest do I want to be on this podcast? Because,
I think it's interesting rewatching this knowing this first season came out right during a time of like collective reckoning in America, like from when the first episode of this season aired to when this last episode aired, right?
America had to be like, Whoa. [00:21:00] We elected Donald Trump, right?
Krispin: And so
DL: And now he's president. And so all of that happened in the space of these 13 episodes. Okay. I don't think Mike Schur thought Trump was going to win. Most people who were in positions of like media, like really downplayed that reality and yet that is our reality and Trump is on the ballot again, in a few months.
It's just wild. To look at that. And I think from 2016 to 2024, I've really changed in that I'm like, the Democratic Party and the Republicans are more similar than I've been led to been led to believe they're wildly different. And, that is to uphold a two party system.
When in reality. Both the Democrats and Republicans privilege and prioritize the wealthy, corporations and America's [00:22:00] obsession with colonization and
The military and war. And I think, the past year, especially with the U. S. aiding and abetting a genocide in Palestine has really made that clear, trans kids are dying in democratic led America, okay?
Palestinian kids are dying in a democrat, led America. And I think it's true when we, the people, are squabbling over these various we our focus is not on the system itself and it's not on how this is actually such a toxic Now I have, I don't know if you want to call it like having a matrix moment.
But between 2016 and now,I have come to the realization that.
Evangelical Christianity is the bad place, right? My family that I thought was like the best family in the world, has some toxic elements in [00:23:00] it, right? That need to be addressed. And I also have come to the conclusion that America's the bad place.
And I don't think that's that shocking to people. If you've been paying attention, more and more people, especially the young, people of color, queer people, like they'll tell you this. They've been, they've. Known this for a long time and So that's why I think this season in particular is just really poignant to me.
A lot of us are on this journey maybe I'm more of a Chidi or a Tahani and it's taking me so long to understand this Because of I was privileged and prioritized in this toxic system for so long
But now I'm like, yeah, America, the leadership, the way we interact globally, the things we fund, the things we support is the bad place.
And instead of getting angry at other people, if they're going to vote or not vote, I'm like, I want us all to work together to change the system. And that's, what this gang of [00:24:00] four end up doing, which is really cool to see in the next few seasons of this show.
Krispin: in the next few seasons of this show. Yeah. Yeah. I resonate with a lot that. I resonate deepest with. Thinking about Evangelical Christianity and just watching this episode and Eleanor coming to this realization of this is the bad place, this feels horrible. I just was
DL: yes.
Krispin: I was like, yes.
So I was like, I am sticking with Jesus on this one. When Jesus says, by your fruit, you will know them.
I think it fits. Like, I'm not saying, making any statement about what I believe about Jesus. I'm just saying. Jesus said, false prophets, you will know them by their fruit, and I think that applies here, right? Like, for my experience of Christianity, and I would say including progressive Christianity, so I'm not just saying evangelicalism here, it was really, a terrible experience for me overall.
And so just watching this episode was another sort of [00:25:00] Reprocessing religious trauma moment of oh yeah, what's it like to be like Eleanor and have this like vision of wait a minute, like, we've been trying to figure this out, for a while. but it's just caused more stress than
DL: It's a bit odd to people that we're doing these recaps of this show as we are transitioning in our life and,
Our public work. But honestly, I think, the truth of it is when we started this podcast, we were both Christian and trying to make it good and trying to make it still be the good place.
However, things happened over and over again, right? That slowly. were adding up and both you and I had to do the hard inner work to finally come to terms with this feels like The fruit is rotten because if you ask Christians it's no the fruit is still good yes there's a few things going on but overall it's [00:26:00] good and as we've left Christianity as we've left multiple toxic systems right it's been harder and harder to hang out with people who still cling to it being The good place in part because that's not where we're at anymore, but I think it's bigger than that I think there is something to this idea of how much shit are you willing to like endure in order to keep the system going and I think since 2016 It's been really accelerated that people have had the opportunity over and over again to see the fruit of white evangelical authoritarianism And so many people have just decided yeah, there's literally no, there's literally nothing that could happen that would make me say I'm not a Christian or could make me say America is maybe not the greatest country in the whole world, and I think that's where at this point it's oh [00:27:00] dear, then you're really good at compartmentalizing and you're really good at dismissing, the suffering of others. So that's how it feels to me when people still make their entire life about making Christianity good, making America good. And maybe that feels like an unfair generalization, but if within our context of white American evangelicals. That is how I feel. With other, I just go specific,
Krispin: Yeah and when I think about this, that I think about the political impacts, but for me, it feels very personal. Thinking about what was it, and maybe the self centered, but part of it is, like, what is it been like for me in white evangelicalism? And just, like, on an emotional, psychological level, it was really painful. And as a therapist who works with a lot of people that have suffered in various ways, I'm just like, I don't see this being [00:28:00] helpful to people that are suffering psychologically. And I think in my progressive circles that I was in previously, I was just talking to a friend about this.
Like, we're all like, Yeah, we don't believe that the, yeah. The earth was, created in seven days. We don't think that the Bible is scientifically true, but we think that it is emotionally significant. And I just came to a point where I'm like, I don't think it's emotionally helpful for a lot of people.
It is for some people. I'm not going to make totally broad statements, but. I know for me and for a lot of other people that have suffered with shame or intrusive thoughts or like whatever it is, like having that like deity that you always have to check in with was not very
DL: Yeah. And this show really does take us back to that central point, which is supposedly people believe in Christianity.
So that they will be resurrected and have eternal life and all the pain and suffering in the world will be worth for you. Again, to get your view of paradise, the vast majority of [00:29:00] the world needs to suffer an eternal conscious torment for you to have that psychological Sense of safety, and I'm just like, Oh, no, thank you.
And of course that changes you over time as we see it due to Chidi and Tahani. And, I guess my hope is like, people are still waking up about this stuff. I think 2016 with the election was a huge wake up call for people. And I think 2024 is going to continue on the same It's just been wild to think about how much we've changed.
And I think people are changing as well, all over the place, and we just don't have that many avenues to talk about it sometimes, the place. have that trauma?
Krispin: wanna talk about religious trauma now?
DL: Weren't we just talking about it?
Krispin: here’s a voicemail before we just talk about it!
Caller: Hi Mayfields, this is another friend of the show, Ben Emerson I call shortly after the first episode. I'm holding my [00:30:00] yogurt yogurt keychain. Thank you for that. Anyway I just wanted to further nitpick about the Jeff Foxworthy.
style, you might be redneck jokes just on the structure of the jokes because it's not you might have religious trauma if you do this, and then fill in the blank.
It's actually the other way around. It's if you had to suppress all of your negative emotions to fit in and make sure that God loves you and that everything was okay, you might have religious trauma. That's the way the work. So I don't know in the future, you may want to like make some adjustments so that they land a little. Stronger with the audience. That's all anyway. I adore this show so much. I look forward to it. And when there's a new episode out I like freak out and have to go pull up the good place and watch the next episode and what you're saying It's really fantastic. Keep going. Bye
DL: Wow, Krispin, we've been outed as never actually listening to Jeff [00:31:00] Foxworthy.
Krispin: And Danielle's you mean like Jeff Foxworthy? And I was like, no, this just came out of my mind.
DL: Ha! Wow. Yes. It's too late.
Krispin: I will say that Ben said this a little while ago, but I thought it would be fun to bring up at the very
last episode of this
DL: we've been doing it wrong this entire time. That's part of the beauty, that's part of the charm.
Krispin: part of the charm. Exactly, it parallels the season finale of The Good Place.
DL: I feel like I am spiraling out in this episode.
Krispin: The really funny thing is, if we had to do the joke that way, That would mean that we'd have to have [00:32:00] the accent for the whole thing. I
DL: Oh, frick.
Krispin: Which I cannot,
DL: you go first.
Krispin: I, yeah, because I can't keep it for the whole thing. I'm gonna, I'm going to keep the format. while taking note, You might have religious trauma if you relate to Chidi deeply in the idea that something that is relatively inconsequential could send you to hell forever and that made sense in your brain.
DL: Wow.
Okay. I'll do a funnier one. a lighter one. You might have religious trauma if you totally missed that Eleanor is a legit bisexual this entire first And this episode in particular, she's supposed to be like, having a connection with Chidi, but mostly she seems into Tahani, right?
And
Krispin: mostly she seems into Tahani.
Exactly!
DL: Exactly.
Krispin: just [00:33:00] went over And someone who was
DL: as someone who was like no. Girls like boys like girls,
Krispin: yeah, it was like, oh, that's a joke.
Krispin: It's not a joke.
DL: it’s not a joke. then it's also funny because the heteronormativity of the reboot with the mailman and the shirt off.
Krispin: You have any fun facts, any more?
DL: Did you know that the neighborhood is called one, two, three, five, eight. Which is a part going to say this wrong, Fibonacci sequence. Which is like the perfect…Fibonacci.
DL: Fibonacci which I think Leonardo da Vinci, when he made the perfect human man picture and it's like
Krispin: huh.
DL: these math things, and that's,
Krispin: These math huh. And that. [00:34:00] Fun
DL: Fun fact! The Good Place looks like it's a paradise really, it's a dumpster fire. Does that sound familiar?
To America? I don't know.
I think another fun fact is that these four traumatized humans learned to take care of each other and they actually did help each other become more human.
and more receptive to learning and the four of them became a team and eventually that team takes down a corrupt system that seems like it's all encompassing and totalitarian but actually it has its own flaws that can be exploited by humans who band together to work as a team to overthrow the toxic system that they were born into.
Krispin: the ideology is different,
you really leaned into some youth pastor energy. there.
Yes. Let me tell you guys another fun fact, but it's actually not a fun fact at all. It's just a
DL: Yeah, can I talk about Dune, 2? As a youth [00:35:00] pastor?
No, just kidding.
Krispin: We'll
save that for, I don't know if that's something that is giving you humanity or giving you life these days.
Or if it's more of the We do have a listener call that I'm gonna play now.
Caller: D. L. and Krispin, thank you so much for your podcast, and we'll see you next time. All the things you're sharing. I started listening because I had binge watched The Good Place, and I was thinking that your podcast would be a fun way to recap the show, and I had no idea how valuable I was going to find all the things that you're talking about from how Lindsay, my college professor, to Kristen, how the Duggars at the end of the documentary, they're talking about their statement basically said that they love all their children and they wish they could And I feel that I was hurting so badly at my mom's funeral when the love letter she wrote to us basically said, Hey, you're all probably going to [00:36:00]go to hell in a very loving way.
And my greatest desire is to see all of you in heaven, which basically was her instead of me. Sharing with us maybe what she loves about us, or what she loves about being her mom. She took that opportunity to just drive home her religious beliefs. And I was struggling with it. But when he shared this, it made me realize that it's not my thing. It was her thing and I so appreciate you guys. Thank you so much for the work you're doing and everything you're sharing. Thank you.
Krispin: Wow. Okay.
Thank you so much for calling in and sharing multiple things there that were just like
DL: Yeah,
Hal Lindsey as a college
Krispin: college professor. I have
a
DL: We have a record. Hal Lindsey talks about the Apocalypse record that I need to listen
I
don't know where it came
Krispin: listen to. I don't came Okay, he's a friend of
the show. I didn't know!
I [00:37:00] even on record!
DL: on Google, the connection.
Krispin: Yes, thanks so much, Zach. Yeah, Hal Lindsey. I like the callback and the voicemail message saying, like, your mom's latest and greatest wish, which was, like, a callback to, Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet
Earth.
I don't know if that, was intentional?
but
yeah, and then that piece about the, someone called it, would call it a Jesus Duke. It's
DL: Yeah, it's just heavy stuff, man.
That's where I'm at,
too, in my relationship with my parents. Is that the greatest wish of their life is on the bad place the good place.
Is how I view it. They would Christianity and American white supremacy and patriarchy, right? But, it's just a heavy thing.[00:38:00]
Krispin: Yeah,
DL: to undergo that, when you just wish you could hear from your parents what they liked about being your parent, what enjoy about you as a person and they're very much filled with dread and regret will not be in the in the
Krispin: I really appreciate you sharing that. It is just really sad and really points to how this ideology of heaven and hell and the control around it, just like, infiltrates all parts of a person's life and really like rots the beautiful moments that could be.
DL: Yeah. Human connection. I think human connection gets taken away.
And
that's why it's hard to talk about. It's hard to explain the control, the high control elements when it's so personal. It's your parent literally pleading, begging you. This is the only thing they care about, and as a adult child, it does not feel good to know that's the only thing they care [00:39:00] about, as if I'm a Christian or not.
I wish they cared about other things,
Krispin: much for calling in and sharing those things. I know that you're not alone in that experience. That's what I really appreciate about this, these conversations is that
Wow.
to have
Hal Lindsey as a college professor. That is .
DL: Honestly, this kind of segues into us talking about what our next project's gonna be. in a kind of poignant way, don't you think? , this is a good time Yeah. To talk about it. So, I think
Crispin and I have obviously shared a lot in this podcast about our history, changed and
we have a lot of years of studying.
White evangelical artifacts, I've, become quite obsessed with Christian publishing. Just think about all our past seasons, right? The Frank Peretti, C. S. Lewis, Talk,
Krispin: Christian Romance,
DL: A Christian Romance, Adventures in an Odyssey, [00:40:00] and so our next project is going to be in that same vein,
Krispin: to
DL: But, it's going to be
focused Like, evangelical parenting that became very popular from 1970 on,
Krispin: Starting with Dr.
Dobson, founder
DL: who wrote a book called Dare to Discipline. And, We're going to get into all that and the cultural impact and the personal impact. But I think this voicemail does a great job of explaining if your parent raised you in these evangelical spaces this is where the relationship ends up. At the end of your parents life, they are just, everything in them has been trained to say like this.
It will be, all of it will be for nothing if your kid is not a Christian.
Krispin: And it is your, even though they might make some caveats, it is your responsibility to parent in a way that your children remain in the fold.
DL: Everything in [00:41:00] your power to do that when they're And if you do this, you have a very good likelihood of them continuing on Christianity, right?
And then, a lot of us don't do that, and it creates so much strife, so much division, a lack of real relationship since your parents can only view you through this prism of I failed you or you failed me or you know something like that. And so that's just one of the many long term impacts of parenting your kids with the ultimate desire that they would continue on your religion.
So this is what we're calling religious authoritarian parenting. It doesn't have to just be for people who grew up evangelical, but if you were raised in a household where, there was authoritarian parenting methods, where the child needed to obey the authority figure and learn very early to obey immediately,
Krispin: And that obedience [00:42:00] was tied to not, in healthy families, like you, kids need to obey because. Their parents know more than them, and they need to keep them safe,
etc.
This is you have to obey me so that you learn to obey
DL: Yes.
Krispin: And so that you obey the institutions and authorities that God has ordained.
And, again, that's not limited to evangelical Christianity, that's just religious authoritarian parenting. I would say, like, throughout the
DL: Yeah, and the religious element is actually the most damaging part because that's the part that continues on, right? It's the religious part that is causing us pain with our parents right now.
As you get older your parents can't control you. They can't spank you. They can still guilt and shame you and, everybody has varying levels of how that impacts them or not. But the religious part stays on and really impacts people at an emotional level. Now. There's, older people are talking about the trend of people going low or no [00:43:00] contact with their boomer parents, Crispin.
And I would like to, with this next project we're doing, focus on what are the reasons why this is happening? Is it a trend or is this just the natural result? Of the kinds of disordered relationships religious authoritarian parenting produces people and their adult children.
Krispin: Are you saying the natural consequences?
DL: Love and logic, baby!
Love and logic!
Krispin: we are We're really wanting to center the experience of people that grew up in these homes. It's interesting because there was pushback against Dobson and say, the nineties people saying this is really unhealthy parenting. But now we're at a point where people that grew up with Dobson parenting are in their thirties, forties and
And so we can ask this question. And we're, that's a lot of what we're doing is like just asking, like, having a, community conversation around what was it like to grow up in this and what are the [00:44:00] ongoing impacts? With your relationship with your parents, but also your relationship with yourself, decisions you make, what are the life, what are the long term lifelong impacts of this kind of parenting?
DL: Yeah. And so we will be centering children in this conversation, which a lot of the resources that are out there right now center parents because sometimes, people who grew up in these systems, they then replicate those parenting methods there can be lots of guilt and shame around that and all of that, but I think, we can talk about people who are children and experience this and just keep centering that. So with that in mind, we are calling it Strong Willed, and it's going to be a multimedia project. And Christopher and I made the decision not to pursue traditional book publishing, but we will be putting out our content in sub stack.
the majority of it will be free to anyone. And then the, there will be an opportunity to, for more community and discussion with a paid [00:45:00] membership. We hope that it'll really helpful to people and create community. Like the four people in the good place. We got to find each other.
Krispin: Chidi.
DL: Find Chidi, maybe that's our message today. Find strong willed,
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: because we're going to take a little break from this podcast while we launch that. And there will be a podcast element of strong willed as well. So we'll keep Be all informed of that. If you're one of our Patreons, you'll be getting the information plus the opportunity to like, Become a paid subscriber to the sub stack with a discount.
So we just want to say thank you to everyone who has listened, shared, supported this. We've never had ads. This is like our weird hobby and now we're going to take years and years of research and start putting it out like into a format where hopefully it's accessible and people can find it [00:46:00] and find each other.
That is truly a goal we have. And hopefully we can point you to other people who are doing this same kind of work. But if recovering from religious authoritarian parents, parenting styles, parenting methods is Something that you are curious about. We hope that you'll come join us on this next project.
Krispin: And also know that it turns out that there's no way that we can give up on talking about evangelical artifacts from the 80s and 90s and forward. So there is going to be a component. We're going to be talking about parenting. We're going to be talking about Dobson, but.
DL: We'll definitely be going through
some Adventures in
Krispin: we will talk about Adventures in Odyssey You are stockpiling Brio magazines
DL: so many Brio magazines, y'all.
Krispin: just want to say we appreciate y'all following along this past year as we took a step back from the evangelical thing.
DL: But really, we've been doing it more than ever.
Krispin: Yes, it's true. It really worked well to be able to talk about the good place. Although, of course, it [00:47:00] brought up a lot of things.
It was, it gave us a little bit of space to just take a break from talking about, Evangelicalism while we were also in the background reading all these Dobson books and if you're a patreon member you know about that because we have been talking about these Dobson books, but Yeah, we've just been really trying to figure out like where we want to go from here And we're really excited to be again trying to create spaces where people can talk about what's what is it like to grow up?
evangelical Especially under these parenting methods and then like how does the evangelical media that we're given all feed into that same? goal of Creating children that grow up to be just like their parents. Remain in the fold, vote Republican, have heterosexual marriages where they raise more kids
that do the same.
DL: actually, this isn't again, it's not just about evangelicals, because religious authoritarian parenting can happen [00:48:00] anywhere. But! The goal of religious authoritarian parenting is to produce good little authoritarians. So people
Krispin: Good citizens.
DL: people who will vote for an authoritarian who says they will save their country, take control.
Take care of everything. And I don't know if you've noticed this, but America has a little bit of an authoritarian problem. And I think it's because for 50 years now, this has been one of the main ways that people, especially in Christian circles parent their kids. So we're recovering from it.
And we have a lot of info to share on the history of these movements and the long term impacts on both people in society.
Krispin: Yeah. As we were looking at what have we written over this past year as we've been working on this project, and we have written a book's length of content. I put it all in one Word document and did a Word count and I was like, we have so much to say on this.
So we're excited. We should stop now because we're
rambling.
DL: I'm like, I [00:49:00] could just keep talking about it forever. Exactly. But no.
Krispin: Okay, but we got to finish with, this is the good So what's something that is
Giving
you Life with something that's good right
DL: So basic, but the sun.
It was 72 degrees yesterday and I was like, my brain was not buzzing with anxiety.
I was like, wait, what? Yeah, I'm just chilling. I mucked about in the garden. I did some work on dobs and shit, and it didn't, make me feel that bad. 72 degree weather is amazing. That's my perfect So that's what's What about you?
Krispin: You stole mine.
DL: Everybody in Oregon would say the exact
Krispin: Exactly Right.
But the other thing is it's March and I started private practice at the beginning of the year and finally, after a wild beginning of the year, things are slowing [00:50:00] down. And so just having some time to just be like, I don't have do anything right now. I can relax. has been lovely.
Which sort of fit with the sunny weather. To just have a sunny afternoon Whereas like I can do whatever I want to do. Which was
DL: was lovely. Wild. Wild times. But does feel good. It's been a journey, y'all. The Good Place is one of the best shows ever created. Many thanks to Mike Schur. He actually wrote and directed this episode, finale And it's been so fun going through it with all of you. Thanks for listening.
Krispin: really appreciate y'all coming along for the ride.
And, yeah, we'll be back soon to talk about evangelical parenting.
DL: Yeah. So in this feed in a few months. There will be some podcast episode about Strongwilled, so be on the lookout for that!
Krispin: We will be back soon. We're not going anywhere. We're just pivoting again.
DL: It's what we
Krispin: We appreciate [00:51:00] y'all being along for the ride.
And with that
DL: Take it sleazy!
This has been an episode of This is the Bad Place, a special season of the Prophetic Imagination Station podcast. You can follow the podcast on Twitter and Instagram by searching Prophetic Imagination Station podcast. You can find us on the web at PropheticImaginationStation. com. You can leave us a voicemail at 503 912 4130, or record a voice memo and send it to propheticimaginationstation at gmail.
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