Sister Freaks

This episode, DL talks with her two sisters about their memories of Jesus Freak and the culture surrounding it.

You can follow Lindsay Strannigan on twitter and instagram - and also check out her podcast, Holy Ghosting.

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TRANSCRIPT

Sisters

DL: This is an extremely special episode of the Prophetic Imagination Station. This is like a worldwide exclusive, because for the first time ever, I'm recording a podcast with my sisters welcome sisters. Yay.

Candyce: Hi.

DL: Okay. You guys need to introduce, Both of yourselves and let's go in birth order.

Okay. Let's start with the oldest, uh, Lindsay, introduce yourself to the podcast listeners.

Lindsay: I'm Lindsay, the eldest Strannigan again, sister. I'm about as classic older sister as you can get. I'm also, I think, now known as the neurotypical sister.

DL: Oh yeah, yeah. The lone neurotypical. Okay.

Lindsay: I've heard that everyone needs a neurotypical sister, so

DL: That is correct.

Okay. Tell us a little bit more about yourself though.

Lindsay: I am senior warden at my Episcopal church in Portland, Oregon.

DL: Okay. Thanks for flashing that uber Christian card

Lindsay: I know. I'm just throwing it out there.

DL: it's important to this conversation.

Lindsay: I’m neurotypical and I am still religious, so there we go.

Candyce: Terrifying.

Lindsay: I am the board president. Yeah. And I think growing up an evangelical church where women couldn't actually have any power is kind of fun to…

DL: you're, you're quite good with power.

Lindsay: I think that's a compliment?

Yes. And I also am doing the Deconstruction podcast thing. I'm on that train. My podcast is called Holy Ghosting. Am I allowed to promote…

DL: Yes, please do

Lindsay: …my podcast on my sister's podcast. So there you go. Yeah. Ours, I mean it's, it is different. I'm the only Christian my podcast.

The others are like witches and it's pretty…we're very sacrilegious.

DL: Yeah. I mean, James Dobson would be proud, right? We grew up listening to Christian radio and now we basically, Un-Christian Radio, but yours is kind of Christian, so cuz you are a Christian, so Yeah, yeah,

Lindsay: Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of Christians who would not like my podcast.

DL: Christian-ish also describes me currently, I would say

Lindsay: Yeah, yeah,

DL: Okay. So Holy Ghosting. And where can people find the holy ghosting?

Lindsay: On TikTok and Instagram and holyghosting.com And you know, wherever you can stream podcasts. Season two is coming out in early 2023, and we are interviewing people and also talking about our own experiences, basically that we're taboo or things that don't fit in the narrow confines of evangelism. So we're gonna talk to some queer folks. We're gonna talk to fat folks. We're gonna talk to neurodivergent folks. All sorts of people.

DL: mm-hmm.

Lindsay: fun things like that. The people that tried really hard…you, you know, something about that.

DL: I do. Okay. So it's like alternate testimonies, which I love, and I'll be, we'll be chatting with you a little bit more about how weird it is that you are like the religious one of the family, but we'll get to that. Right? We'll get to that story. Okay. So that's Lindsay, that's the older sister. I'm the bizzaro middle child. Everybody knows me who listens to this podcast. Now we have my younger sister, Candyce. Candyce. Is is this your first time ever recording a podcast?

Candyce: I'm, I'm super nervous actually. This is uncomfy.

DL: Don't be nervous and you can use your weird voices if you want.

Candyce: Okay. I have a lot of special interest voices. I like accents so.

DL: I’m excited to see if that happens, cuz I'm, I love the Australian one.

Candyce: Oh God.

DL: Okay. And the cockney. Okay.

Candyce: So

DL: Candice, tell us a little bit about yourself to people who are listening.

Candyce: God. Where to start? Um, I have nothing to promote. Don't worry. I have zero social media presence. Don't worry.

DL: Candyce did the whole route where she tried to disappear from the internet.

Candyce: I did. I went loud and proud for a while. Really anti-Trump got in a lot of trouble for that…

DL: got kicked out of YWAM

Candyce: Yeah.

DL: who knows?

Candyce: I might've gotten in big trouble, so I just been slowly disappearing, you know, just from social media. It feels good. I'm the youngest. I think I was considered the wild child of the family, which is interesting because I actually think I'm pretty tenderhearted.

Lindsay: You are the strong-willed

DL: Yeah. Strong-willed. Strong-willed.

Candyce: Triggered! Yeah.

DL: Let's get into that a little bit too with your story.

Candyce: Yeah. I think it's, you know, I think it's actually been a good thing in the long run to be strong-willed or labeled that way. Eventually, as I figured it out, what that actually means. Can we edit this out? This is terrible.

DL: it's fine. Okay. So yeah, we'll talk more a bit about you being the strong-willed child, but you wanna tell anything about like, kind of your history, your past with Christianity? Oh, I mean, only as much as you're comfortable, and I think this is a really good, real-time look at, like, it's hard to talk about these things.

It's hard to talk about them publicly and everybody should just listen to themselves and share what they wanna share and don't share anything more than that. just, yeah. So if you think about anything like, Hmm, what do I wanna share about my life? Do you have any like, here's my Uber Christian card?

Candyce: Yeah, I was a missionary for 12 years. You know, I was absolutely, absolutely all in. Man, I felt like I absolutely drank the Kool-Aid. So invested to the point where once you deconstruct, it's pretty devastating. That's kind of where I'm at. You know, I was absolutely invested. I felt like I really, I still actually really love who Jesus is and what he personifies and all of that, but everything surrounding that, all of the rules, all the expectations, all of the power dynamics within, um, the religious organization that I was working with and. You know, how we were raised in our childhood.

It's been toxic for me and my personality and who I am. And, you know, becoming myself finally kind of detaching from that and taking a break and rediscovering who I am has been lovely. It's been really good.

DL: Yeah, I love that. So we've gone through a lot in our lives. I think people listening to this podcast know a little bit about our childhood. I always just say like, I'm a pastor's kid and I was homeschooled most of my life. Um, do you guys think there's any color you wanna add to that? Any anything else? Like, how do you describe our childhood to people?

Candyce: Oh God. How can we, where to start

DL: Where to start, but do you talk to people about it?

Candyce: Sometimes, and sometimes you gotta do a, like a soft opening, right?

You start with like, oh, you know, I was a homeschooled pastor's kid, right? So that's fine. And then you gauge the response and like, how, how much further can I go.

DL: Yeah.

Candyce: You know?

Lindsay: Right. Or pulled the like, I mean for me, I never went to public school a day in my life. So there's that.

DL: should we get into this now? Because we all have kind of different school experiences, so mine was, I did not go to school until my junior year of high school.

Lindsay: because you refused to go to school with me

DL: my parents would only let us go to Christian school and Lindsay. There's one Christian school in northern California where we, we were living when I was entering high school and Lindsay was like the queen bee of the Christian school.

And, and she's like, gorgeous, tall, popular. And I'm just like this short, frumpy, neurodivergent teen who dresses like a boy because they don't feel like they have gender. You know, that's me. And I was like, I can't, I can't go there and be Lindsay’s little sister. I just can't, so I just, I just schooled myself and you guys always make fun of me cuz I did all these video curriculum from Pensacola. Like they'd always make fun cuz the teachers would pick on some of the students in the video classes, including. And I just watched The Prices Is Right. I was living my best life playing bass by myself at home. And I was like, no, wait a minute, I'm gonna go to that shitty Christian school. No, but, okay. Let's go to Lindsay. Lindsay, how was your schooling?

Lindsay: Um, I mean, the thing I remember for the homeschool days is sort of, I'm such a social butterfly, so it was hard for me, like we did sports and things, but I  just like, in one way, we didn't really do a lot of homeschool co-ops, which I'm grateful for because I did not wanna hang out with other homeschoolers. There's like one homeschool family and our youth that I remember that we were all friends with, and I did love them. The Ross girls? Yeah. Mm-hmm. . That was great. But beyond that, I don't really remember hanging out. It was mostly we made friends at church. Yeah. Um, and so yeah. And then once I got to go to school, I didn't even care. That was Christian school. I was just so thrilled to like have people and run for class

DL: building. And you were involved in everything.

Lindsay: Yes, I was. And I think, I mean this is, we'll probably get into this more later, but my personality and sort of how I dealt with a lot of these things is I would just get out. I was little Miss Independent.

I got my driver's license the second that I could, I got a job that, I got a job when I was 15 cuz I was like, I am gonna pay for my own things. And then once I got a car, it was just like, see you, like I was gonna be involved in every sport cuz I just, I would go and do those things and not be home,

DL: Yep. So you are very independent from a very young age, right? Yeah. And you were like, I am gonna take care of myself. Which it can be a hallmark of firstborn children, especially if they feel like they can't really rely on their caregivers so much.

Lindsay: well, it's a hallmark of this firstborn child who went through some, there's a lot of traumatic events in my childhood, so I pretty quickly, I just decided that I was the person who was gonna take care of me and kind of ran with that.

DL: Yeah. I remember when we were kids, you telling me and Candyce like, “mom cares about God more than us.” Like you were pretty pissed that our mom was extremely into the charismatic movement and was always going to conferences and going to extra services in church.

You know? Cause my dad wasn't charismatic, so he didn't pastor charismatic churches, but she would find those churches in whatever town we were at and do that. And I remember you just being pretty pissed about it. Like,

Lindsay: Yeah, she was really into it and I think it's just, yeah, that's just not my personality. I don't go all in on one thing and I was just like, dude, you chill a little bit. I also think like the charismatic movement made me deeply uncomfortable,

DL: you hated it.

I did not. You hated it. I was like, hard pass. I do not like,

DL: Like when you were a little kid, you hated it.

Lindsay: Yeah. I was like, why are people flopping on the ground? That's terrible.

DL: Yeah,

Lindsay: like slain in the spirit. Hard pass. Giving up control. No, thank you.

Candyce: I would love to bring up that she says she doesn't go all like hard into one thing or all out into one thing. That must be nice as a neurotypical. Like I know. Who is she? What does that mean? I don't get, it does not compute.

DL: She didn't try and be an uber Christian to get our mom's approval. Okay, Candyce, let's talk about your schooling experience. Yeah,

Candyce: it's a mess. Um, mom, you know, tried really hard to homeschool me, but I don't learn the same way as you both. I can't just be…Ow. Your cat. Guys!

DL: just a scratch Candyce.

Candyce: Let the record show the cat has scratched me.

Um, so you, she just would give you guys books and you could teach yourselves.

I could not do that. And so I think eventually mom figured out that I. Not thriving, being homeschooled. And so I think at sixth grade I went to Fourth Lake Christian School as well. Mm-hmm. . Okay. But then we moved, uh, to Central Oregon. And so then I was homeschooled again for a year. And then in eighth grade went back to Christian school and then freshman year went to sister's Public high school…

DL: where I went when I was a junior.

Candyce: So that was my first public school experience by far the best. I definitely preferred public over any of the. Schooling methods that I, um, was introduced to. So yeah, it was a mess. I never really felt like I belonged. Like I went to three different high schools cause we moved so often. My dad or our dad was constantly taking new jobs places and, yeah, we went to three high schools.

The final one being Barlow high in a Boring, OR. Yeah. So…

DL: so you had a really scattered life and you didn't really get to experience community and you had learning disabilities that went undiagnosed because we moved around so much and you never really got the care. And, and we used to laugh like Mom was the original unschooler because she just didn't do anything. In some years it was like, well, we're just reading Little House on the Prairie and making acorn pancakes and that's it for the year.

Lindsay: I just told that story to my podcast co-host. Yeah. And they were like, “wait, little House in the Prairie. Like, that was a homeschool curriculum?” And I was like, “My mom said it was, but I think we just read the books and made acorn pancakes.”

Candyce: Literally.

DL: Oh yeah. They were so bitter.

Lindsay: Yeah. I wasn't, it wasn't gonna say poisoned us, but they were horrible.

DL: horrible. But we said amongst ourselves, we were like, “guys, I think they were poisonous.”

Candyce: so bad. Really?

DL: pancakes. Okay.

Lindsay: crappy. Don't make acorn pancakes.

DL: Yeah, that was like one year I think mom was just really depressed and didn't wanna do anything. So anyways, I loved it because I just read what, what little books I had access to over and over again and just loved being alone. You know what I mean?

Candyce: Mm-hmm.

DL:  And, but everybody else, it wasn't so great. So that's just one example of, I thought like that's how everybody was raised, especially because who we knew were other extremely religious kids who were either homeschooled or their entire social life was the church, right?

That we went to these small, what my dad would call. what would, what would they have even called the churches? Just a Christian Church.

Candyce: Non-denominational. Non-denominational,

DL: Right. And so now we have this language of like evangelicalism and white evangelicalism, which our parents in their theology fits perfectly into, but we would never use those terms. Right? And it kind of bogs me when people today so are like, well, I don't have identify as evangelical. I'm like, if you grew non-denominational, I'm sorry. That is classic, uh, evangelical culture, right? So yeah, that's, that's a part of how we grew up. I don't know if we really wanna get into this yet, but do we, do we wanna talk about, uh, kind of what our experience was in relation to Christianity being the overarching drive of our parents' lives and how did you experience it? I think people who listen to this podcast know. I obviously went all in, right? As as like a genuine response a child can have when their caregivers are deeply obsessed with a religion or ideology.  Okay, so that's what I did. I went all in, but I wanna hear from both of you, and I wanna start this time with Candyce.

Okay. How did you respond? Or maybe I should even ask like, is this a part of your childhood memories? Do you remember Christianity being the thing that our life revolved around?

Candyce: There was no other choice. That literally was my framework. I, there was no other option -- like of course. Yeah. It colored everything. Um,

DL: do you, can you think of examples of like, when you say it colored everything, like how did that show up in our little life?

Candyce: like there really was no option to think outside of that, I guess, like, I thought it, it encompassed everything, so I, everything felt, felt very narrow and compressed because there was no way, like, there wasn't any other option, I guess. So, and I, I guess if you wanna go back to even, uh, you guys are talking about, you know, voice of the martyrs or whatever, right? So we were introduced to this concept that we were most likely gonna be martyred. Can I mention that now? Is this appropriate?

DL: Oh, sure. I mean, I, I guess the overarching thing to say, My mom and you guys still let me know what you think about this. I always thought mom went through a few phases of being obsessed with the end times, but also maybe just sometimes it got more intense than other times.

But that was sort of a through line of our childhood as our mom was convinced the world was

Candyce: Yeah. And she was preparing us for that, you know, out of love, like as a parent who tried very hard to love their children, you know what the best thing to do is to prepare your kids also for the impending doom, right? Yes. To prepare our souls and all that. And so, uh, when I look at the three of us, we all ingested that information very differently. Yeah. Out of, you know, survival. And mine was like, ah God, I really don't wanna be martyred. Like that sounds really unfun,

DL: yes.

Candyce: But I ended up kind of having to embrace it because I didn't think there was another option.

So it's kinda like, I guess I just have to bravely face martyrdom, you know?

DL: How old do you think you were when this happened?

Candyce: Oh, she showed me the thief in the night. All of us, when we were living in Alaska, I was five.

DL: Geez Louis.

Candyce: Yeah, I was five and um, it was like at the same time we were watching like the Hobbit cartoons, you know?

Um, but I remember she, yeah, we had to watch Thief in the Night and we were like being told to be prepared that we could not deny Jesus in the end times.

DL: Just, for people who aren't aware, the Thief of the Night is a movie from the seventies about the Antichrist coming and killing Christians with the guillotine. I mean, it's also about the rapture too, but the end is this woman getting her head chopped off with the guillotine.

Because she refused to deny Christ. And that's what, and mom's like, yeah, that's what you guys are gonna have.

Candyce: Yeah.

DL: And I was, you know, eight I think, or nine. And so yeah, that was like a huge formative part for me too.

Candyce: When you're faced with that at such a young age and there's no other adult, you know, telling you otherwise, there is no one in my life being like, “Hey, let's like rethink this?” really, you know, “let's have, uh, some other ideas thrown about what your future could look like?” And so you kind of just go into these coping mechanisms and mine was like, “God, like I'll ignore it for as long as I can. But I suppose like I just have to embrace it. Like I'm gonna bravely be the wild child for God.” You know, I got labeled Wonder Woman for God really early, cuz someone prophesied that over me.

Lindsay: old doubting Thomas over here. Yeah. Well, jokes on you because I got outta some big T trauma because of my doubts though.

DL: So my mom obviously was into charismatic stuff, all that. Um, I was prophesied over that I would die Martyr's death before I was 16. Okay.

Lindsay: this like the same lady?

DL: This was like the same night we all went to at a vineyard church in Cody, Wyoming. Okay. Yeah.

Lindsay: This is the kind of church that I needed to like, just take it back a moment where there were dancers up front with streamers.

Candyce: Lindsay, were they flopping on the floor?

Lindsay: I also hated streamer dancing. I freaking hated it. I was like, why are we using streamers for the Lord?

DL: I liked it. I liked the streamers. It's much better than the hysterical

Candyce: The neurodivergent folk thought they were soothing.

Lindsay: Yeah. The laughing was, that was just, I was like, how do, like, now that I'm older, I'm like, that was demons, right?

DL: No, it's called mass hysteria, Lindsay. Geez. Look it up. No, I'm just kidding. Um, okay, so there, so yeah, so this, this one church or this one Night of Prophecy, and they also could have been wanting Northern California too.

Lindsay: Yeah. I remember mine being in Wyoming.

DL: That's what I, I remember too. But they, they, the prophecies got like,

Lindsay: We were just, we were just prophesied over so many times.

DL: Candyce. Candyce you were the strong-willed child in our childhood. And then it was like,

Candyce: oh, the prophecies were, “she's like Paul, she was a Saul...she's gonna turn it around, you know?”

DL: When she finally commits her life to Christ, she's gonna great things.

Candyce: gonna change the world.

DL: She's gonna be a world changer. I was just gonna die. That was it.

Candyce: oh God,

DL: I was born to die. Okay. I was born to die..

Lindsay: really cool thing to tell…

DL: Especially if that child's autistic. It was like, well, God said so. I have to believe it.

Lindsay: God said it. I believe it. That settles it.

DL: I think I've shared this before, like I didn't get my driver's license. I didn't do any of that shit. I didn't figure where I wanted to go to college. Cause I was like, “well, I'm dying y'all.”

You know, why make plans? Lindsay, tell us about what they prophesied over you. So imagine me and Candyce is getting these epic ones and my mom just like in raptures of happiness that both of her kids are gonna die for God. Okay? Now go to Linday…

Lindsay: and I just remember this lady just like praying over me intently and then like opening her eyes and looking at me and just telling me that the Lord told her that I'm doubting Thomas, and like that was it. That was all the prophecy

DL: the only prophecy you got.

Lindsay: I think, like honestly, I don't remember if there were others things that were prophesied for me. I don't remember that.

DL: never had words of knowledge for

Lindsay: Nope. I was like, I just wanna know how skeptical I must have looked.

DL: And you were like 11.

Lindsay: Yeah, maybe 12. Yeah, probably somewhere in there

DL: Probably just standing stick straight and judging the shit out of everyone.

Lindsay: I think so.

DL: And honestly, that's what they do if they know that somebody's not all in. I feel like they will say stuff like that and just like get you outta the picture.

Lindsay: Yeah. I don't remember like having more conversations about it or maybe mom said something to like, make me not, because I remember I was bummed. I was like, it was not a good, good prophecy.

DL: now we laugh about it, but what was it like for you?

Lindsay: It was just like, “cool, my sisters are gonna go do these amazing things. “

DL: you were jealous of me getting my head cut off by…

Lindsay: No, no. I just like,

DL: but the attention

Lindsay: well, yeah, and I'm competitive and I want everyone to like approve of me and, yeah. Well, and I think that like oftentimes I did a pretty good job of like faking it in evangelism and just being, because I was what?

DL: No, I, no, I think you did. And that's, and we're gonna get to talk about, I mean guys who, if you're listening, we really are actually gonna talk about Jesus Freak and the book we are getting there.

This is all really important background because I'm really curious, Lindsay, about how you sort of interacted with things like Jesus Freak and the accompanying like voice of the Martyrs. Right? And they're all connected, right? “Are you going to do big things for God? Are you a hundred percent sold out to God? Do you believe this? Have you led left all your logic at and skepticism at the door, and are you all in?” What was it like for you when Jesus freak came out in 1995, which is, you know, a little bit after, right? You had these prophecies on you where you're doubting Thomas, what was it like for you, because you were really into music.

Yeah. So what was it like for you when you listened to Jesus Freak? I

Candyce: I mean,

Lindsay: I loved the album. I mean the song, Jesus Frank still slaps this is a good song and we were not allowed to listen to secular music. And so I think

DL: unless it was country

Lindsay: true.

Yeah. Or, and again, until I got my driver's license and then I could like listen to the radio in my car. I could listen to whatever I wanted, but like, Christian rock music really like opened up a whole world for me and I think DC Tuck was the first concert I ever went to. I

DL: Wait, Carmen, Lindsay. Carmen in, in, in Wyoming. Don't you remember? Oh, Montana.

Lindsay: I dunno if I went, I literally don't have memory of going

Candyce: I don't think you did.

DL: Oh, maybe you didn't.

Lindsay: There's a lot of weird things in our childhood [00:23:00] where they remember, and I'm just like, I don't think I, I just like no doubt,

DL: I don't you no

Lindsay: what I was doing. But um, yeah, I re like, I remember thinking the song, like colored people. I was like, oh my gosh. It was like so progressive.

Like, I reme, , you know? I was like, look at the, and I mean, they had a black eye in the band, you know, like,

DL: everything's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Candyce: Like

Lindsay: mind you, can we talk about the fact that in my Christian high school that I went to, there was one black person in my high school.

DL: Wow.

One. Yeah. So

Lindsay: so I was not around a lot of people of color in my childhood, so of course I thought that song was like awesome.

DL: Yeah.

Lindsay: Um, yeah. And, but for me it was always just like music. I thought it was fun. I bought my Jesus Freak t-shirt, but I didn't buy, like, I didn't buy the book. I didn't care about, I was like, if Jesus, if Daisy talk's gonna tell me to be a martyr, I'm just gonna like, ignore it.

DL: really? So you, so you kind of separated it and you didn't, you, you thought like, this sounds cool. I like some of. Things. But you weren't really thinking about the lyrics or anything like that?

Lindsay: Not really - like again, it was just sort of like a way for me to be able to listen to things that I wanted to.

DL: That you enjoyed? Yeah. You’d blast it in your little car.

Lindsay: Yeah. And it was socially acceptable in our circles and our family. And then I discovered wonderful things like tooth and nail later, where it was like half those bands weren't even really Christian, but to our parents, it was a Christian reactor label.

So I was like, if Tooth and Nail puts it out, I can listen to it.

DL: I don’t know what you were doing, cuz Mom literally made me show her the liner notes of every tooth and nail band. And I had to prove how one song was about. God basically . I was in there doing the work and you were just out there listening to it.

Lindsay: Cause I just don't think they were even trying with me at this point. Again, I was like off, I had a CD player. My, my mom couldn't, like, what was she gonna do?

DL: You had friends. I did not. So I think therein lies the difference between us. Lindsay, okay. Onto Candyce. Candyce, what do you remember about Jesus Freaks? Because, so you had already sort of been like, eventually I will give in and I will be a martyr, but I'm just gonna draw and think about horses.

Candyce: Yes, not really think about it it too much. I think too, by the time that stuff rolled around, I had enough outside influences. I'm also extremely social, so I had a lot of other. First it started out being homeschool friends, but then Christian school friends. And none of them had been told about the end of times and they, and so it just kind of was like, oh, like maybe really

DL: The common denominator really is, I had no friends, so I never knew.

Candyce: I was a sweet summer child. I know. Yeah. So I think, uh, by the time all that stuff came out, I, I loved the music and we were like only really allowed to listen to that, you know? Um, but I wasn't really thinking about it in terms of like, Martyrdom anymore. It was more of like, okay, this is song, this is bop. Um, and I, I'd pushed the thoughts martyrdom all the way to the back of, I mean, I still wanted to be like, wonder Woman for God, and yeah, make my mom like me, uh, . But yeah, I, I didn't, I didn't really take it so deeply to heart. I just thought it was a bop.

DL: Yeah. Okay, so this is good. This, I think this is a really good insight into how these pop culture artifacts from white evangelicalism can really hit different, right?

Depending on the kid, their personality, their neurotype, you know, all these different things going on. And so obviously I'm the one that was like, I thought the music was pretty good. Um, but I got really obsessed with the book, the Jesus Freaks book. Okay. And I know we had it, I know I read it cover to cover and that mom talked a lot about it being like, oh yeah, this is like our version of Fox's book of Martyrs, which she read to us a little bit at a Fox's book of Martyrs.

Right. Um, but she was like, this is better. And so read this and would you guys remember the book at all? Because when I try, when I showed you the cover, you both had a response. Do you remember what it was? When I showed you the cover? You were both like, “Ew, no. Put that away.”

Lindsay: like now I was like, I think I just like rolled my eyes or something. You made me read like the intro and I was just like, stop. This is such bullshit. Okay,

DL: let's get into that.

Lindsay: remember you made me read the intro and what did I think my, you were like, how did this make you feel or when you read it, when you were younger. And I think my exact response was like, Like, “I liked Jesus, but I was like, didn't, I was not gonna die for this shit.” Like I was like, “I did not sign up to die. Thank you.” It wasn't my prophecy.

DL: I mean, in retrospect like, that's A normal response to have to this book. Like, Jesus is fine. I'm not dying for this thing y'all. And you were like one more reason to peace out, right?

Lindsay: I moved away to college the second I could. Yeah. I was like, I'm gonna go find my own way. I also remember, like, so I was talking about this with, with Canice the other night, like I think that my way of dealing with things. Knowing that it was like a possibility. You know, we were told our whole lives that the anti-Christ was coming, you know, every liberal, you know, politician, that was whatever gonna take over the world, something was possibly the anti-Christ. There's a lot of fear of that, and I just like, I think my whole theory in life is just like, I'll burn that bridge when I get there. Like, like I'll deal with it if it happens, but I'm gonna live like it's not gonna happen. Yeah. But I also trust in my abilities to take care of myself. I'm scrappy. Like I think about it, I'm like, sure if there was like a rapture or apocalypse or the anti-Christ, or if there's like a zombie apocalypse like I'm a survivor, you'll figure it out.

DL: I am not [a survivor].

Lindsay: Well, clearly you're supposed to die by the time….

DL: that’s why I think the martyr stories…the whole goal was to not survive…martyr stories are interesting to me because in retrospect I was a really anxious, overwhelmed, traumatized kid, and I was like, sure, I'll die. That sounds great. I can't survive. It's really sad, you guys and people who are listening to this, if you know people in your life or you were that child who gravitated towards this material and was obsessed with versus like for, you know, for him to, for me to die and him to live as crisis gain or something, you know, all these like verses, right? If you were into martyr stories, um, if you really wanted to be Beth in little women, I'm sorry, but you have some passive suicidal ideation. You know what I mean?

Candyce: God, I forgot about that.

DL: and I'm dealing with mine in my own life, but that's just the freaking truth of it. Okay. And these stories, the stories of martyrs, right?

They exist for a couple purposes. One is to like force people to commit more strongly to the religion and ideology. And you know, their country to be perfectly honest. Like there's two groups that use Marty stories, it's religion's countries right in, in America. Like we have the marriage of the two. Like it's so great.

So Lindsay, I think it's just so cool and I am really inspired that you were just able to be like, “Nope, I'm not doing that.” Like you had your own sense of autonomy. And self. And in some ways this kind of sucks. Like cuz you had to develop that so young, right? Yeah. Because you felt like you couldn't depend on our caregiver to do that. So I'm like, that protected you in some ways. I'm like, wow, I think that's kind of amazing. And Candyce sounds like you were not as intense as me, but it was still, you were still like, yeah, this could be coming.

Candyce: Yeah.

DL: what do you remember about the book at all or martyr stories that mom would tell us in general?

Candyce: like a true Enneagram seven, that stuff terrified me. And so I tried to fill my life with as many distractions as possible. Yeah. So like a true, Enneagram gram seven, like the terror was always just right under the surface. But I, uh, distracted myself with a lot of fun and friends and, uh, a lot of adventure and travel. Those books absolutely scarred me. I don't remember which book this particular story came from, but there was a book or a story.

about Christians (This might be a trigger warning) It's terrible of like Christians were forced to like lay down and then they were slowly steamrolled to death. As like part of….

Lindsay: I missed that one.

Candyce: it's in one of these of these books. It's in one of the two that you mentioned. And I just remember being like, God, if I'm to be martyred, can it not be the steam roll. Like I just felt like the quick, like let's do a firing squad, making deals, with God, “let me not be steamrolled” dealing with God about my death.

Lindsay: just saying - our poor therapist, like I think about telling a therapist something like that. So like, “when I was young, I would pray to not be steamrolled”

Candyce: just make it quick. God, make it quick.

Lindsay: a sentence that any other human has ever uttered?

Candyce: no Yes. We're so relatable.

DL: guys, this is not obscure as you think it is.

Lindsay: That's sad.

DL: I remember the steamroller

Candyce: right? You do. Okay.

DL: But the thing that really terrified me of these books is this, this they, they just hammer it over and over and over again like.

Candyce: over. You

DL: have to commit to never deny

Candyce: Yeah. Christ. Yeah.

DL: Because if you do, like your entire life is in vain. Yeah. Like if you capitulate the last second to not be steamrolled, none of this is worth anything.

Candyce: You'll be steamrolled and sent to hell

Lindsay: Right. Well, what's on the Jesus Free album? What's the, like the, the quote, like the, the sermon clip that they put in the album. Right. About they deny him like with their, yeah. Lifestyle or, I feel like it's along those lines. Yeah. It's about like, it's about not denying.

DL: Yeah. And so that's what I was really terrified of.

Like, am I going to crumble because I don't,

Lindsay: if I stumble? What if I, what if I fall?

DL: What if I crumble and don't wanna be steamrolled?

Candyce: at all. That's actually

Lindsay: alternate DC talk

DL: I  mean, I wish I had the strength of when I was a kid to be like, actually, I don't wanna talk about dying all the time. Like, mom, I don't actually wanna be a martyr…but I couldn't.

And so I think it's, it is really hard to talk about these. I'm glad I'm talking about with you guys cuz like who else can we talk about this with? But again, these books were designed, the album is for everybody. The books in particular are very similar to like acquire the fire shit because at the end there's like a pledge. You have to sign that you're a Jesus freak. You will always, you know, and that's very acquire the Fire.

Lindsay: so many pledges.

DL: but pledges are for teens. Okay. So they're trying to get teens to pledge to

Lindsay: to, to sign up to be a martyr.

DL: Right. Cuz we had purity pledge.

Candyce: Mm-hmm.

DL: know what I mean? And then we had Jesus Freak pledges

Lindsay: Right. And what was Acquire the Fire. You're just gonna be on fire for teen?

DL: On fire for God. Yeah.

Candyce: you're going to acquire a fire.

Lindsay: Oh right. I just said “on fire for teen”. That's funny.

Candyce: Teen fire.

DL: I'm an on fire for God teen. I mean, I just said shit like that all time,

DL: you know, Lindsay, as you know, Candyce,

DL: so, okay, let's, I wanna do like a rapid fire info about the book. Okay. What do you think is the first story, the first martyr quote unquote martyr reference in this book?

DL: gonna give you a hint…It's not true.

Lindsay: What?

DL: it's from Columbine.

Lindsay: Oh,

Candyce: Yes.

Lindsay: the girl that Cassie.

DL: Cassie

Candyce: gracious.

DL: She said, You know, when the school shooter asked her if she believed in God

Candyce: that's not true?

DL: I mean, somebody said was somebody else. Like, all this has been really debunked, but it's, it's wild and awful how that story was utilized and capitalized by voice. The martyrs in those types of folks. Like, see what we've been telling you all along

DL: This could happen to you.

Candyce: are you ready?

DL: Yeah. Okay. So the rest of the book…I kind of tried to categorize the stories. Okay. Cuz some of the stories are from history, again, similar to like Fox's book of Mars, like the Roman Empire, all that stuff. Okay. Um, but what do you think is the main sort of community religion worldview countries that they demonize, that they portray as killing Christians? In this book, what do you, what was it? What are your guesses?

Candyce: I mean Middle East, right?

DL: Middle East like Muslims. Okay. Okay.

Lindsay: Uh, communist China, clearly. Oh,

DL: You guys are both very good at remembering. So actually the guys have really good memories. Okay. Um, the number one is communism cuz that involves Russia, it involves, um, China.

I just loved the books on Russian communists. I don't know if you guys ever read those books like Ivan, the book Smuggler and all the, the Bible smuggler and all these things.

Okay, so, so stories where Communists Kill Christians are make up 45% of the book. Stories where Muslims kill Christians' makeup 18.2% and I think it's important to say like the Muslims and half of the communist ones right are present day, at least when this book was coming out.

Okay. Then we have sort of lumped together Catholics and weird Protestants in England, but mostly they're Catholics, right, who are really bad and kill other Christians. But I was like, at least they have a few instances of the Church of England, you know, Christians killing other Christians, and then we have the Roman. And then we have Jewish people, unfortunately.

Lindsay: I wish you could see our faces. Candyce and I are just like, god.

DL: So I think it's important…I was like, I have to categorize just what this is and I just wanted to ask this question to both of you guys. Like what do you remember from our childhood as when it came to the rhetoric around communism, socialism, and Islam? What do you guys remember? And Jewish people, I guess we could put in there?

Lindsay: Which I don't remember. because I was so big in studying the Holocaust, and so I feel like I always had a lot like, that's all I remember about that is that they were also a persecuted people. So I don't remember hearing about them being the persecutor.

DL: you ever like think about how was Christians who were killing Jewish people?

No. Yeah.

Lindsay: that was not a thing that was first spoken of. Yeah, I just remember it was like, it was the picture of like people huddled in basements and they had to smuggle in Bibles and it was all very secretive and then like if they were found out, they were gonna die. We have

DL: like China or?

Lindsay: In China. I feel like in my head it was always in China.

Yeah, that's That's what I remember. And I mean, we just listened to a lot of Rush Limbaugh growing up. So you just didn't like, Other countries, you know, like, yeah, yeah,

DL: Yeah. I would say socialism was still a big talking point. Even back then with Rush Limbaugh. Yeah.

Lindsay: Right. And because this is all like pre 9-11, this is when we were young. I feel like the, the rhetoric then shifted the bad guys. It became more Muslims later. I don't feel like that was as much talked

DL: about. Yeah, but it's wild, how many stories are about Muslims in this book, even pre 9-11.

Candyce: right? Mm-hmm.

Lindsay: oh yeah. Did this book come out pre-911?

DL: oh yeah. This, this book came out in 1999, so yeah.

Two years before, so we were anti, anti-Islamic before became culturally popular. What did I say? We, I mean, you know, Christian publishing,

Lindsay: we were way ahead of the curve

DL: Oh. Candyce, what do you remember of like communism, socialism?

Candyce: Um, I, yeah, A lot of it was like, These pictures in my head of people huddled in like underground church basements in China, specifically with like the secret police storming it, hauling everyone off to prison for their of lives or, um, I feel like there's a lot of rhetoric about how Muslims were having a lot of children, a lot of that like. They're just populating the earth spreading is, yeah, there was a lot of that. But also I think, um, the stories in particular and regarding, um, Muslims were really brutal. I feel like some, I feel like those are some of the more graphic Yeah. Stories. No, I agree. Yeah.

DL: Yeah. And so I think I, you know, wanted to categorize that just to see like these are still common villains, right? In white evangelicalism today that they talk about. Now I know you guys were not like me, but the end of the book just basically goes through alphabetically, all these countries where ostensibly Christians are being persecuted. You can pray for each one, and they tell you what to pray for and you know, Those countries and everything, like I would pour over each of them and like think really hard. Like is this the country I'm supposed to go be a missionary to? And the vast majority of the countries at the back are Muslim countries. And all, every time you're supposed to pray, like pray that the leadership changes to Christian. You know what I mean? And then of course at the end of the book, it's like, if you care about these. Donate to Voice of the Martyrs, donate to what we're doing. And I don't know if I told you guys this, but like , you know, in 2012 when the executive director, you know, died by suicide rather than face charges for, um, you know, sexually abusing a child, like, That was also right around the time Voice of the Martyrs unveiled this like $28 million facility that they'd taken. Like so much of the money people had sent in to Voice of the Martyrs, use it for this thing. Another really weird thing about Voice of the Martyrs is you can sign up to like raise money for them and you get to keep some of that money.

Lindsay: and also like what are, they doing? like, the whole premise was…so how are you helping people exactly?

DL: They built a $28 million facility in a town of 30,000 people in Oklahoma. Like that's what they did.

Lindsay: Did they just like build a bunker for all the American Christians to escape to? Cuz we're clearly the persecuted church.

DL: they now employ, they're the second highest employer in this town in Oklahoma. Like the, the person who runs it is not even a strong Christian. He's just the mayor of the town. Like it's all economic. Y'all like, it's just, you can raise money by pedaling these stories to people. Okay. Like it is wildly corrupt.

Lindsay: Well, it is also super profitable to prey on people's fears. So…

DL: yeah, yeah,

Lindsay: like, but okay…What I don't understand is how did we get from reading stories about persecuted Christians and all these other countries, which you was overblown to us. It, it does happen. People get persecuted for their religions, all kinds of religons

DL: and Christians persecute

Lindsay: Christians, persecute and Christians have been persecuted. Yes. But like people are persecuted for their faith. Different faiths. Yes. All over the world. Like, and, but how did we then, as Americans internalize that as, Like I just, it's wild to me that people read those stories and then they're like, oh yeah, like we in America like that. So many people, I now believe that like Christians in America are like being persecuted or under

DL: I mean, that's the question, isn't it? I think getting these persecution, narratives, Stuck in your psyche when you're a very vulnerable, impressionable teen is a part of it, is a part of the indoctrination process,

Lindsay: Right? Like not being allowed to pray in school is not persecution. People like the whole,

DL: Who's not allowed to pray? You're just not allowed to force everybody

Candyce: Right? Right. Yeah.

Lindsay: I was thinking the other day, like the cuz you at the poll thing, it was such a thing. People were so enraged about prayer in schools and like, which is just, I just found out recently that the Oklahoma City Thunder, like an NBA team does a prayer, like a team prayer before every, and it's like a thing that's like either in their contract or something. When the team moved from Seattle, like unchurched Seattle to Oklahoma City.

DL: cause the voice of the martyrs probably. I'm serious

Lindsay: Also, what we did See you at the Pole at my Christian high school. which is hilarious.

Lindsay: Yes. My Christian high school didn't see with the pole. I was like, this is so stupid.

Candyce: is incredible.

DL: I don’t know if I did See You at the Pole. It seems like the kinda thing I would do, but I don't remember doing it.

Candyce: Oh, we did. It was there. We'd literally circle the pole and like pray towards the American flag. That's, that is not cult-like at all.

Lindsay: but it was quite the act of rebellion

Candyce: normal Sister, OR

Lindsay: hardcore.

DL: Yeah, I think, but I think you're right. You if you grew up in this culture, right? You might have peers, you might have parents, you might have people who just seem to be totally all in on this persecution narrative. It's because it's been fed and it's been fostered, and Fox News and y you know, all these. You know, quite capitalistic places know that it works to feed aggrieved entitled people. Right. This narrative.

Lindsay: Well it was, and it was all about freedom, right? They're coming for your churches, they're gonna make you hire gay people.

DL: Oh, and taxes

Lindsay: they’re gonna take away your tax status. That was a true, like I feel like that was the number one thing that churches were worried about. That they were gonna be forced to hire someone that they thought was immoral.

DL: just like being steamrolled. know what I mean?

Lindsay: very similar.

Candyce: similar.

Lindsay: It's like a, it's, it's the steamrolling of ideas.

DL: steamrolling of the self. No steam rolling on my rights. Okay. We can't joke about this anymore.

Lindsay: Clearly this is how I deal with trauma. Okay.

DL: well that's a good way to end this guys, because we could keep talking.

But what we're really talking about right now is religious trauma and how you can get religious trauma out of, you know, being indoctrinated into things when you're a kid. And everybody deserves the time and space to process this shit. Okay? And that's what I'm doing here on this podcast. And, uh, I'm sorry. Made you guys come on here. Candyce, what feelings are you feeling right now?

Candyce: We're fine. We are all fine. Everything's great.

DL: it didn’t impact us because like we totally have no depression

Candyce: No, we totally normal people.

DL: we never wanna die, ever . No more more death fantasies ever

Candyce: We feel like we belong

Lindsay: I'm just looking at them

DL: Oh, cause. You have it so together. Wow.

Lindsay: Just kidding. We're all on Lexapro.

Candyce: Doubting Thomas.

Lindsay: maybe, I don't know, maybe you're not lexapro. A different cocktail of anxiety medications. Yeah,

DL: I am.

Lindsay: I'm Lexapro girl. I'm not an oil goil.

Candyce: Oil goil. Well, I…

DL: you used to be an oil goyle.

Candyce: I’m still a little bit an oil gole, but I'm also a Cymbalta goil.

DL: Candyce, it’s fine if you have peppermint oil and Cymbalta.

Candyce: I agree. Thank you.

DL: We're all three in therapy. So like, shout out to therapy and also shout out. One of my sisters pays for the other sister to go to therapy, which I think is real nice.

Candyce: you pay for the neurotypical coming in clutch. Yeah.

DL: makes that neurotypical money and so she running her own business and shit. You know what I

Candyce: I mean? Mm-hmm.

Lindsay: that neurotypical money. Wow. Okay.

DL: yeah. So anyways, this has been a delightful conversation. I. Absolutely healed of everything, and I will never be sad.

Lindsay: Was that Jesus? Did he heal you?

DL: Absolutely not. I think you guys healed me. Just kidding. I'm really depressed right now.

Just even talking about it, I'm like, oh, my tumy hurts. This is so bad. Bad. It kind of reminds me of being, you know, being ramised in a death cult, which it kind of was, but not everybody has that experience, but it's, I think it's okay for us to talk about our experience growing up, how it impacted each of us differently.

And that's the thing, guys, religious trauma, you can run away from it, but it will come back to about you in the butt. So it's better to think it through. You guys. Do you have anything else you wanna say? Any, uh, it doesn't have to be words of wisdom. Anything you wanna say about growing up like us? What it's like to be a Jesus Freak and then not be a Jesus freak?

Candyce: I wanna say I feel like I've been in it, it's been a rough few years, right? Deconstructing all of that and like, honestly, I can say that I finally feel more like myself.

I feel like my mind is finally my own. And while it's really hard, and I'm definitely not the most, like, there's some mental illness in it in there, but, um, , I'm finally feeling like myself, like it's…I do think that healing is coming and it's lovely and there's good things. So I don't know, I wanna encourage people that you have similar experiences that, you know, work through that shit.

Like I do think it gets better. I feel much more okay than I used to. And I know that sounds crazy, but it's true. How is

DL: and I think it's really good that you said that because to be a Jesus freak, the end result is to not be in touch with yourself, with your true self,

DL: right? Yeah. To be a Jesus freak.

Lindsay: You have to literally have to deny yourself.

DL: Yeah.

Candyce: I was so good at that

DL: And that's why all three of us, I think, are continuing to do that work of getting in touch with who we are.

Candyce: “more of him, less of me,” right? Yes. More like “more of me, more of me.”

Lindsay: Put that on a key chain.

DL: More of me. More of me.

Candyce: less of him. All of me. Okay.

DL: what about you?

Lindsay: Yeah, I think that I'm little bit of a Jesus freak, but not really.

DL: a senior warden.

Lindsay: I'm just a senior warning and, and frankly I don't know that if I went anywhere else I, that I'm not like a diehard Episcopal. I happen to find a community that really, I think saved my faith.

Um, I had been one foot outta the Evangelical church for a long time. Yeah, I mean, I'm a classic Enneagram three too. I'm like a people pleaser, achiever, and so I think I went to church. Danielle and I went to the same church for a long time and I just, yeah. So finding this Episcopal church, my, my priest is incredible and she's, I mean, our church is run by women and queer folks and the fact that they.

Like prior, I don't know. It just, it's been a really healing space and saying

DL: your church is actually really involved with things going on in Portland, including houselessness.

Lindsay: Yeah. And working with unhoused populations was never something that I set out to do. But our church has run a hot meal program for like 25 years, feeding people a hot meal every Saturday. And then they started a food pantry in the pandemic. And then we have a shower truck and laundry truck that comes on Saturdays. And then we hand out, I run our like hygiene ministry. We hand out everything from. So to underwear, to hand sanitizer. We started in the pandemic just handing out hand sanitizer and face masks that like little ladies in our church would sew. So yeah, it's been, I've learned a lot and it's wonderful to be like with like-minded people that see like, that treat people like, I think that Jesus would treat people. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, it's not perfect that I still have questions. I mean, I'm still figuring out what I believe about things. And it's like I, I look back on like, like why was Scripture such a big deal? Like a book that was written by a bunch of dudes who didn't even know each other. You know? Like I certainly, but I also think that like I have the freedom to ask those questions and I can be a little bit of a doubting Thomas and turns out that like doubt, I think saved me in some ways. Like the fact that I had some questions and I wasn't all in has allowed me the space to like kind of figure out what like faith looks like to me.

DL: Yeah, I love it. I feel like for both of you I can see these prophecies being reclaimed right? In some really beautiful ways and so I'm just glad to be here, you know, talking about this both of you. So thanks guys.