Onto the Bonnet Rippers!

D.L. chats with Valerie Weaver-Zercher about all things Amish Christian fiction! 

We explore the unique, multi-faceted world of Amish romance, how it ties into the larger evangelical world in general, why it’s so dominated by whiteness, and why it remains such a popular genre among evangelical women today. 

Valerie Weaver-Zercher is a writer and editor with Broadleaf Books (where D.L. is also an author). Check out her website and her book, which we discuss in this episode, Thrill of the Chaste.

We have a website—check it out for more information. You can also find us on Twitter and Instagram.

To support our show (we can’t do this without you!), join us on Patreon! You’ll get access to our monthly patron-only episodes (including the entire backlog), as well as occasional zoom hangouts. You can join this community for as little as $1.50 a month!

Cover art by Zech Bard.

Transcript

Krispin: [00:00:00] What are you saying ‘uh oh’ about?

Danielle: We're rolling?

Krispin: So this is on the record.

Danielle: Okay. Well, I just like, I've been collecting Christian books, obviously for this series. And so I was like, I know I have some bonnet books around here somewhere, which is what we call Amish romance in the biz. Um, so I grabbed a few from the shelf and I was like, oh, it'll just be a fun joke. It'll be a fun gag. I'll just like read Krispin the back of one of these books. But then I said, uh-oh, as soon as I started reading. So yeah, there we go.

Krispin: Cause [00:01:00] it's not a joke?

Danielle: Okay. Well,

Krispin: Cause it’s not that bad, or it's like trigger warning?

Danielle: Okay. I just picked this book off the shelf. It's called Hester on the Run. Hester's Hunt for Home book one, a romance set in colonial America by the bestselling Amish author. Now, nothing about this says Amish, except by the best-selling Amish author Linda Beyeler. But the, tell me about the lady on the cover. Tell me

Krispin: Well, it, I mean, she's wearing a bonnet. I feel like this looks like an American girl doll grown-up.

Danielle: But Amish right, with a bonnet, or just Kiersten?

Krispin: Yeah. Well, I don't, like she sort of looks Latina to me.

Danielle: Oh, well, here we go. Here we go. Okay. In the early days of an Eastern Pennsylvania Amish settlement, a young Amish couple finds Elena and infant wrapped in deer skin and left by a spring. Hans and Kate Zug named the child Hester, cherishing her despite the pointed question of Hans’ mother, “What makes you think you can raise her Amish with her Indian blood?”

Krispin: Oh, now [00:02:00] I see why you said “uh-oh”.

Danielle: Yes. Oh no. Well, it's a woman of color in a way, but I'm, I don't know. I'm not sure that this person's ethnicity is indigenous, who is the model?

Krispin: Is that why Hester is on the run?

Danielle: She was hunting for home. And there's just so much problematic. I don't know. Interesting. So this lady, this author, Linda Byler, grew up Amish and is an active member of the Amish church today, which I think is kind of rare, which we'll get, we'll get into it, I'm not sure in this episode. Before we- okay- Krispin, I'm just getting too deep in here.

Krispin: I know

Danielle: Welcome to the prophetic imagination station.

Krispin: I know this is our Christian romance season, which by the way, I was thinking no other seasons have we just titled like the thing that it is? Yeah, this is so straightforward. We're just, it's just Christian romance, but you know, it all works.

Danielle: Yeah, that’s what it is. And today we are diving into the [00:03:00] world of Amish romance, which is a big deal in Christian inspirational fiction. I love the person I talked to. Um, I don't know. I feel like for our Patreon community—and everyone should join our Patreon because it's really awesome—I feel like you and I should livestream us going to one of the few operating Christian bookstores in our town and we'll livestream. So like, you're going to distract the person at the cash register, and then I'm going to livestream myself in the Christian fiction section and show everyone every single title I can find that's Amish. And then like, we can place bets in the Patreon community. Like you can say, like, I think you're gonna find 40 titles. Somebody would be like, I think you're gonna find 17. Those people will be wrong. What if somebody says a hundred? Like, who knows?

Krispin: Ok, uh-huh (laughing)

Danielle: Join our Patreon community for as little as a $1.50 a month, prophetic imagination station. It's actually at Patreon.com/DLMayfield, [00:04:00] find us there. So, I was just really excited to finally talk to Valerie, um, Zercher-Weaver, because she's an editor. You and I actually worked with her a little bit cause we did the study questions for the 40th anniversary edition of Donald Cravins book, The Upside down Kingdom, and Valerie was working at that publishing house.

Anyways, she wrote this book called The Thrill of the Chaste where, uh, it was published in 2012, The Thrill of the Chaste, and it's about Amish romance.

Krispin: Thrill of the Chaste.

Danielle: Um, yeah, she's just a fabulous person, we get really into it. And I just want to say really quick, you will just be able to tell in a lot of these interviews, but this one, it really stood out to me. That I am always trying to talk myself down from the ledge and be like, no, like what women read is good. And like, I'm not going to like poopoo what women read. Cause like women are just [00:05:00]trampled upon in our society. And so like, I'm not here to judge, and I'm like trying to be very cool, very chill about it. And then by the end of the interview, it was just. Yeah, Amish communities are enclaves of whiteness, which is why white evangelical women love them. And so I'm just like, if you feel like you're a bit on a roller coaster with me, well, you are. Just buckle up and hop on the ride. Okay.

Krispin: You just looked at me and said, if you feel like you're on a rollercoaster with me.

Danielle: Have you had this experience Krispin, where I'm like actively trying to talk myself out of like going to the deep, dark place? And I'm like, no, this is cool. This is chill. This is fine. I'm objective. I'm chill. And then by the end, I'm like, I'm not chill at all. Burn it to the mother f-ing ground.

Krispin: I've had that experience, but I'm sure other people, our listeners, have had that

Danielle: That's why I'm saying, buckle up listeners.

Krispin: Right.

Danielle: Um, because I do go on that journey in this little interview.

Krispin: Okay, here's my question for you. So I thought that it was really [00:06:00] interesting, uh, in the last episode that Daniel Silliman said that when Christian romance came about, it was not just about not wanting to read about sex, but like, a lot of the romance that existed was like really icky and not good news for women. That was what he said. Okay. Um, And then, uh, in this interview, you talk about, um, about like the talking about like how life has really hurried, and how a lot of people like to read this because of the slow pace of life, et cetera. Now you like old British TV shows that I think are sort of similar. Like you love

Danielle: I’m not the only one in the world that likes these things.

Krispin: That’s true, but it made me wonder, like, why do you like the, these TV shows?

Danielle: Like what TV shows?

Krispin: Like, uh, All Creatures Great and Small. Like, what is it about All [00:07:00] Creatures Great and Small that you like? Because I think that is in that same stream. It even struck me, sorry, I'm spoiling the interview a little bit, but she talked to some women that were like, you know, why do you like romance books? And they were like, oh, I didn't think of them as romance books. I thought of them as more like time period pieces. Right. That are just happy endings. There's that again, and then there's like a romantic theme in them.

Danielle: I feel like people should be playing like a drinking game while they listen to this podcast and take a shot every time me and Krispin do not figure out that we're doing some sort of naughty pun. Okay. Um, so now I'm forgetting what we were talking about.

Krispin: Why do you like these stories?

Danielle: I don't exactly know why people have different, like comfort shows and different things like that, but I think it's worth mentioning that don't just leave it at that with these Amish books in Christian fiction in particular, both because we don't want to just leave it there for the readers, but we don't want to leave it there [00:08:00] for the machine of publishing. Does that make sense? And I do believe that Valerie is saying like the machine keeps churning out these books and they contain an element of like political

Krispin: Nostalgia?

Danielle: Nostalgia. So I think, I think it's, it's complicated. I do try and keep that tension there, but there's just something so stark about this. This trend of Amish fiction that has just swallowed up the Christian fiction market. And it's woo, it's really intense actually, when you kind of step back and look at it. So anyways, that's me, I'm going, I'm going back to the depths of despair.

Just thinking about, I have read an Amish fiction book a time or two in my life, have you?

Krispin: No, I have not.

Danielle: Okay. I wonder how many of our listeners have. Um, they’re boring

Krispin: They are?

Danielle: Let me tell you that right now. And what do you think about all these women who told Valerie that they read these books for like devotional reading? What do you think of that?

Krispin: I mean, I think in some ways that's the reason that we read scripture is because we have [00:09:00] these—the look on your face. Let me, let me defend myself. I'm not saying it's good, but, uh, with scripture we read these stories of people of faith living their lives. The ways that they leaned on God or looked to God, and you know, like the ways that God intervened, et cetera. And so, I think I'm not saying that it's the same as scripture, but I'm saying that functionally, it feels the same. So much of scripture is these stories, especially around women coming from hard places. Right. And then God showing up in some way. So I think that there's, I think maybe in that way, it almost feels like familiar. I'm giving a big benefit of the doubt there.

Danielle: Well, yeah. There we go. So I hope you guys listen to this interview. I'm also going to be interviewing, um, some people from the wonderful podcast um, Just Plain Wrong. P L [00:10:00] A I N. Just Plain Wrong. It's, it's like three. Or maybe it's just two. Oh no. It's some Mennonite librarians who like discuss Amish inspirational fiction. It's a wonderful podcast. Go check that in the meantime, but I will be talking to them about the book that kicked off this trend, which is Beverly Lewis’ The Shunning. So be on the lookout for that one too. But for now, let's get into this interview with Valerie Zercher Weaver. Okay. I have to do that again. How do you say her name Zercher or Zercher? Okay, but for now, enjoy my interview with Valerie Zercher Weaver, author of The Thrill of the Chaste.

INTERVIEW

Danielle: Okay. I'm so excited today. I get to talk to somebody I have known at least online for a while. Valerie Weaver-Zercher I know Valerie as an incredible editor and also, um, a really, really interesting writer. I've had Valerie's book on [00:11:00] my bookshelf for about two years now, because I've been wanting to do this podcast series on Christian romance for about two years. And Valerie wrote a book in 2012 called The Thrill of the Chaste: the alure of Amish romance novels. So Valerie, thank you so much for being here today. And for talking to me.

Valerie: Thank you so much for having me, it’s a real treat.

Danielle: So you are an expert on Amish romance novels. Is that correct?

Valerie: I suppose you could say that. It's a relatively small thing to be an expert on in the scope of the world. But, um, I would say I, I have studied it probably more deeply than certainly anyone I've met, and have not um, like I mentioned to, you necessarily kept up on what's happening in the incredible growth of the field since I published my book. But, um, yeah, you could say, I know a lot about them.

Danielle: And I love your book because it's, it's exactly my sweet spot of it is not a book that set [00:12:00] out to like expose Amish romance novels, or to even just study the history of it. You actually are just asking a lot of complex questions about sort of a cultural phenomenon that has happened within Christian publishing, and much of it is driven by the readership of white evangelical women. And so there's this fascinating confluence, right, of things happening. And you were like, I think this is worthy of study and I just love people like that. So thank you so much for, for doing that work. But it's been a while since you published your book 2012, um, I was just wondering if, what would you say was the peak of sort of the Amish fiction inspirational boom? When, what year do you think was the peak of that?

Valerie: Well, to be honest, I, I don't know whether it's peaked or not. I certainly, certainly, um, in 2012, [00:13:00] 2013, when I was researching writing, publishing the book, there was no signs of any, uh, let up in terms of the number of Amish themed novels being published every year. So I have like a little graph in my book and the slope is only going up. So, um, my sense anecdotally in the year, since my book has come out, is that there's been no slowdown? Um, I was just looking at some information about Beverly Lewis. Who's one of the, probably the premier author in the genre. Um, she has sold 17 million books. She's publishing, her first one came out in 1997. It basically created the modern kind of iteration of the Amish romance novel. 1997, she's still actively publishing, books have been translated into 12 languages. I think it would be about 2007, 2008 that we really see it begin to take off. But in terms of a peak, I'm, I'm not [00:14:00] sure that's happened.

Danielle: See that. So in my mind, I'm reading your book and I'm like, I'm sure the peak was right around 2012. At the same time, the reason I started even thinking about Amish romance as a thing is, uh, you know, I went into a Christian bookstore just to be properly horrified about what's being sold there. And also to see if my books were there, just to be perfectly honest. This was a few years ago. And I remember walking into the bookstore and being like, I'm surrounded by white women wearing bonnets. Like, that's this the sense I had walking into the store. Every book cover that was facing me was a white lady with a bonnet. And I was like, what's happening? Like, I didn't know I was asleep. I was doing other things, like something happened when I wasn't looking. And this is now what Christian publishing is. Uh, and, and you're saying that's kind of what happened, right. It kind of exploded

Valerie: It did. And, and I was just reading an article [00:15:00] in Publishers Weekly. Now this was from 2017. Um, but not, you know, not that long ago. Um, uh, about, uh, Christian fiction, the kind of, um, uh, larger category within which Amish fiction is housed. And the journalist says in 2017, it's still extremely popular. You know, it lists lots of, um, new novels that are coming out. Just this afternoon I went to the website of, um, Thomas Nelson Zondervan fiction, which is, uh, uh, merged imprints that used to be two separate houses. You know, the first slide on their website is Holiday of Hope, an Amish Christmas wedding story. So like the first book you see, when you go to the Thomas Nelson Zondervan fiction website is an Amish romance novel, so yeah.

Danielle: It has all the words in there. It has Christmas. It has marriage. Or is it wedding?

Valerie: Yeah, yeah. It's, uh, it's a really interesting kind of, uh, [00:16:00] distillation of what white evangelical women want to be reading about and, um, an Amish novelist ability to deliver. Um, so yeah, Christmas and weddings really aren't um, especially Christmas is, it's certainly a part of Amish life. When, if you’re going to talk about kind of what the genre does in terms of distorting or, um, reflecting, quote unquote, “accurate” perceptions of Amish life. And that's a whole topic we can talk about, but, um, you know, Christmas celebrations among the Amish are relatively muted compared to, um, what most of us, um, who are not Amish are used to. Weddings are important in Amish life, but they would be nothing, um, like the kind of wedding industry that again, many of us would presume to be the case. So, yeah, real interesting, kind of, uh, novel there.

Danielle: Yeah. And I just went into a bookstore, not, sort of like a discount books store, not Christian, but their [00:17:00] Christian section I, I counted at least four Amish Christmas romance books, you know, and these are, yeah, these are just current day books. Seems very popular. Um, I was reading in your book that in 2012, an Amish romance novel was published every four days. Uh, these figures to me are astonishing. And I think it's important here, um, to say like, we're going to be talking about white evangelical women, what they read and, you know, I don't want to denigrate it. I want to observe it and be interested in it without pathologizing it. I don't know how you did this so well in your book. So, what was your, how did you approach this, uh, this topic? Cause I can really sense you just like to bring up a lot of questions.

Valerie: Well, I became very interested in people's responses to me when they would find out that I was writing about Amish romance fiction. Um, [00:18:00] and the, it was, uh, I, I began to kind of be almost as interested in that question, the responses I was getting, as the questions of why these books are so popular and why they're so popular now. You know, certainly at the beginning of any research project or book that you begin to write, as, you know, you have to figure out like, what is the main inquiry, what are the central questions that I'm going to occupy myself with? But yeah, I was really much more interested the people who were reading them and you're right by and large, that is uh, white evangelical woman, not entirely. I mean, there are male readers of these books. There's actually a huge global readership. So it's not just a US-based market. There are Amish readers of this book, but, but yes, as a sub-genre of evangelical Christian fiction, the truest audience for the books are white evangelical women readers. And so I visited some, a book group. I talked to a lot of readers. My life is adjacent to and surrounded by a lot of [00:19:00] white evangelicals. Um, and so I had ready access to, to people who that, that I could interview. And I did, I did pretty quickly determine that I wanted to, if I wanted to understand why they love the books, I had to listen to them and I had to listen to them carefully and without a lot of preconceptions, um, I don't, I don't regret that stance. I think it helps me to understand what was going on pretty well. I think I would've written a different book if I had written it today. I think it would have been a harder task, um, to, to have an empathic gaze post 2016. I think there are a lot of reasons I was, um, unaware and probably, in part being a white woman, myself, I was not aware of where white evangelical women were beginning to or had already begun to move politically. And I didn't have a political kind of, Um, [00:20:00] analysis happening in my brain when I was writing the book. And so again, I kind of, I kind of regret that in the sense that I wish I'd asked them different questions and, and made some more connections between whiteness and Christian nationalism and this topic. At the same time, um, It was probably easier for me to maintain, um, kind of an empathetic or, um, open-minded kind of, um, approach to the readers. If that makes sense.

Danielle: It does, but also, I, you know, if I were you, I wouldn't be super hard on yourself because you said you were trying to listen to the actual readers and they would never explicitly say I read these books because they reflect like a white nationalist Christian utopia. Right. They would not say that to you. Um, and so there's some of that work where you have to listen, but also do some of the sort of sociological work to say, there's other factors [00:21:00] going into play here, you know, even looking at the charts in your book saying this really started to explode in 2008, 2007 is like, yeah, that's when the recession happened. Right. And that's when people go to fiction for comfort and you, I think on another podcast, I heard you say, you know, Amish fiction is having a little bit of a resurgence right now, right? During COVID times, like fiction explodes and these comfort things. Well, I loved about your book is you're pretty forthright about this idea that, you know, everybody has a theory about why women read Amish romance novels. What you focused in on is, um, it does seem to be a response to hyper modernity and like hypersexuality in culture. And those are things that people kind of felt okay agreeing with you about it. Am I right in saying that?

Valerie: Yeah, I often, um, I'm trying to think, I guess I would sometimes bring up those terms in later in conversations with, um, readers of Amish fiction, as I was beginning to kind of [00:22:00] make sense of them myself, you know, I'd ask them why they like the novels and they would say, oh, they reflect this kind of flow, simple pace of life. And then they would talk about their own sense of harried schedules and inability to keep up with technological change and, um, con-you know, pace of communication. And, um, you know, they'd be telling me those things in those words. And then I was reading, you know, the, this French theorist who came up with the term hyper modernity. Going to butcher his name, Lipovetsky, and he would be talking about this kind of, um, spreading over culture, a sense of life being sped up. So, um, from this kind of theoretical perspective, um, very much the same thing that I was hearing from readers. Hyper-sexualization um, you know, a lot of their readers talk, you know, describe these books as clean reads. Um, they [00:23:00] don't even necessarily see them as romance novels. One reader I talked to was, I talked about Amish romance novels to her. And she was like romance novels, I don't think of these as romance novels. Well, I guess they have romance in them, but you know, she, she, um, and her, and the readers that love these books, um, are very clearly, I would say most of them situated within purity culture, um, kind of overwhelmed by what they see as an over-sexualized, um, larger, popular culture. Um, I, I relied on the work of some journalists and sociologists who are not themselves evangelicals, but who are identifying what they call hyper-sexualization of popular culture, that kind of, um, entry of kind of a pornographic aesthetic into the center of kind of popular culture in a way that it wouldn't have been in the seventies or eighties.

Um, [00:24:00] you know, we can talk a lot about the various dimensions, including the harmful ones, about purity, culture and evangelicalism, um, kind of sexual ethics, but it's very clearly a part of the engine of, of the sub-genre is that evangelical women are feeling embattled, especially mothers are feeling embattled by, um, hyper-sexualized kind of, um, cultural products. And so, these novels become an escape for them, um, to this very chaste, textual environment. You know, these are not, um, these are, these are not novels that play on erotic, um, you know, energy, there's, there's very little sexual encounter, um, narrated it's suggested, you know, behind the bedroom door, after marriage. Um, but then there's also interesting things around the Amish themselves being kind of perceived as this chaste culture. Not, not [00:25:00] literally, of course they have big families, so they're not themselves virginal, but they certainly just in the minds of lots of people, occupy kind of a virginal space on our cultural landscape.

Danielle: That's the thing about Amish romance. It's not like a simple question and it's not a simple reason why people read this. You touched on a few things that I want to just tease out a little bit. One is you said there's like no sexual content in these books. And from what I can remember reading a few here and there. I, you know, yeah. Nothing in there. There is some cultural perception, uh, you know, what are they called? Bonnet books, you know, bonnet rippers. And like you, even in your book go into like how the, the secular media, like doesn't understand these books at all. They think they're about Amish people having sex.

Valerie: Yeah.

Danielle: And you're just like, there's none of that in there at all. Um, something else is going on in there and it's not just because evangelical women are repressed and read books about [00:26:00]repressed eroticism. That is actually not what's going on in these books either. I, whenever I bring up any kind of Christian romance, including like Amish romance, like, uh, on social media, you know, people are like, oh my gosh, that's porn for women. Those books are just porn for women. I was like, have you ever read them?

Valerie: Yeah, Yeah, no, I think that's really the widespread perception that it somehow this, um, yeah, there are these, um, barely submerged there, a way for women with barely submerged, kind of, um, sexual desires to work these things out in their reading. And, and it's just, um, it's not what I found to be true in the novels.

There's, there's yeah. Anybody who's read that now. Yeah. Anybody who's read. Amish novels produced by evangelical Christian houses will just be disappointed. I think if they're looking for some of that kind of sexual energy [00:27:00] in the pages of the book, it's just not, it's not there. There's kissing. Um, there's handholding, there's, um, sweetness, there's hugs. Um, there's some, some of the Christian authors have a little bit more measure of like, you know, gazes of longing or the hair that comes out of the covering that is a little bit more erotic feeling, but it, it, I just think it would be pretty disappointing to readers who feel like they're gonna find, um, a lot of clues about evangelical women's sexuality or repressed desire, because it's just not there.

Danielle: Yeah. That's not, that's not what these books are doing culturally. I mean, it's not even like a Jane Austen, right, who, who you mentioned in your book, right? It's, it's nothing like that. One thing I wanted to hone in on, is you were saying, when you talked to these women, they said what they love the most was that it brought them closer to God. So it's very evangelical in that. Um, there's, there's always like a crisis moment, right? Where the [00:28:00] heroine has to learn to trust God, or to trust Jesus as a personal savior or have some kind of a personal relationship with Jesus or God. And that really kind of floored me. I mean, I should know that I grew up evangelical. I know that I know the testimony, the conversion story is the pinnacle of the spiritual life of the evangelical, but it was kind of shocking to read your book and be like, that's the reason why so many people love these books is they get to relive a conversion narrative and, and they actually feel spiritually. Like it feeds them spiritually, um, in that.

Valerie: Yeah. And that's, I think that's exactly right. There is a devotional quality in these books, women over and over again, told me how the reading them strengthens their relationship to God or helps them feel closer to Christ. Historically the Amish themselves are not of evangelical. Many of them are using more evangelical language to describe their faith than would have been true in the fifties and the sixties. But, but historically speaking, I would [00:29:00] say the Amish would have lacked of the language of like a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Like that's evangelical speak in a way that I would say would have been fairly foreign to, to the Amish. They speak about the new birth. Um, they're obviously exceedingly, um, and deeply, um, religious people with an understanding of connecting with God in various ways. But they do that, have historically done that very differently than American evangelicals. Um, it's been through the community, you know, it's been through, um, disciplines of the faith, um, and the language of personal salvation. I mean, the Amish, many Amish would still articulate a hope of salvation but their humility prevents them from talking about assurance of salvation in the ways that evangelicals do.

So there's really interesting, yeah, kind of um, ways that the books, I [00:30:00] think superimpose an evangelical spirituality on top of kind of Amish character.

Danielle: Yeah. And I think one thing that is interesting to me, you said if you would write the book now, you would probably focus more on, um, race and these, these questions of Christian nationalism. And I've just really been struggling through thinking about that. Like, um, so, so publishers, you know, uh, writers like Beverly Lewis, they could have taken any culture and kind of superimposed these, um, you know, testimony, narratives into that. Uh, but they did it, they, they chose the Amish, and it became very, very popular. And I like also in your book, you're like, we can't just talk about like white evangelicals really liked to read these books. Like publishers know how to market it. Like the marketing, uh, stuff is all really important, um, and, and needs to be observed as well. But I, you know, I, I've been living in relationship to, um, you know, Muslim women for the past 15 years and, [00:31:00] and they, you know, came from these farming backgrounds. They came from a pastoral life, you know, they're quite chaste in some of these ways, they come from a patriarchal society, their faith is very important to them. And I was like, you don't see Muslim romance, novels, uh, gracing the shelves of a Christian bookstore or more, uh, observant Jewish sex. You don't see it happening with Roman Catholicism. Like none of that has been exploited and commandeered by the evangelical publishing machine, but the Amish were.

Valerie: It's super interesting to me. And again, I feel like it's a piece that I kind of missed. Um, I mean, I write about race in the book. I have some level when I'm writing the book of awareness that the Amish are really this kind of hyper white community, ethno-religious community. Um, in some ways, these little colonies of whiteness really, within [00:32:00] the United States and Canada, and the hyper whiteness of Amish communities, um, I think has to be a factor in the draw for authors and readers and evangelical publishers. Um, and, and just the success of the books. There is a nostalgia politics that of course we saw and see operating in terms of Trumpism and the kind of growth of Maga nation and the 81% of white evangelicals who voted for Trump. There, there is a, there is a nostalgia at the root of politics, of white evangelical politics. And there's a nostalgia at the root of white evangelical reading habits. And I don't think I connected those or was prepared to connect them. Um, but there were, there were readers who told me things like they feel like the Amish were the live, the way we used to live, you know, there's this sense in the, in the white [00:33:00] evangelical female imagination, and maybe this is too strong, a point to make, but I think there's, um, kind of a nostalgic connection to, to the Amish.

And it's just a, it's a, it's a, it is a really interesting. I think there's a, there's a, there's an engine of nostalgia that I did examine, but there's an engine of white nostalgia that I did not quite fully comprehend.

Danielle: I think that's a really interesting way to put it. And as much as we don't want to denigrate, you know, the reading habits of women and we believe they deserve careful thought and analysis, I think it's also okay to say the things that white evangelical women are interested in, um, can have some really dangerous repercussions. Like this is not happening in a vacuum or a void. Right? And it, if they're engaging imaginatively in a place that is hyper white, and yeah, it has these, nostalgia politics, yeah, that, that's going to have some [00:34:00] actual social impact. Right. And so I want to be clear about that. You know, I'm not here to

Valerie: Yeah.

Danielle: Yell about a women's reading habits, but I also think they matter and I think they have political repercussions. I don't know. It's just, the Amish are also possibly an interesting way for, for women to figure out how they feel about government. I don't know. Am I getting this wrong?

Valerie: So I am a Mennonite. And for your listeners who know anything about Mennonites and Amish, there's this very, um, both historical and theological connection. Um, both, um, are pacifist groups by and large, believe in the separation of church and state, value simplicity community. So as so, but, uh, as much as I, as a Mennonite would like to at times say the Amish are this really weird fit for white evangelical writers and readers, like they, you know, white evangelicals can't understand who the Amish truly are. And it's like this, you know, [00:35:00] strange, these strange bedfellows. Well, there is however, um, some real truth in what you're saying. And I, I was looking at some, um, articles about Amish voting habits, uh, and Lancaster county, like the Amish, um, by and large historically did not vote. I would say there's still probably a minority of Amish folks who would vote in national elections, but there's clear data, um, not only about Republican outreach to the Amish during the 2016 and 2020 elections, but, um, Amish support for Trump. And, and I think there is a, is a way in which, um, notions of, evangelical notions of religious quote unquote “religious freedom,” um, Amish perspectives on the state, I think there is something really consonant about those perspectives that I, I also didn't see.

Danielle: The thing is, I think you say this in your book, like the old order Amish, which is what most of these books [00:36:00] tend to focus on. Right, they make up less than one 10th of 1% of the US population, like that is so wild to me. And yet they are the vast majority of Christian fiction publishing at this point. Like this is wild.

Valerie: Yeah. You know, I'm not sure I'm prepared to analyze why all that is. How do they occupy such a massive place in the white evangelical imagination? When, like you say, demographically speaking there really, it's not that large of a group. They're not only interesting to evangelicals though. It's important to note that like not only evangelicals are really interested in the Amish, so are people of color. Like there, the Japanese are really interested in the Amish. Not all of them, of course, but the, there, there are lots of Japanese readers of Amish fiction. So, um, and not just fiction, but nonfiction. there's, there's a, there's a, there's a curiosity factor and an interest factor, um, for not, non-white evangelicalism as well. Um, [00:37:00] and, and, you know, probably all, you know, somewhat related to the more deeply, we get into an era of hyper modernity or late capitalism or whatever you want to call what we're living in, the Amish really do stand out and bring stark relief as like resisting a lot of that. They look increasingly odd, you know, on, on, um, to, to our eyes.

Danielle: Yeah, it's kind of like, in my mind, some of, I feel like the genre has capitulated on like what the Hallmark channel has found. Right? Which is you have a formula of a busy overworked woman, you know, who goes to a small town where life is slower pace. People are nicer, you know, and then she falls in love. So like the Amish romance is like, a sub-genre of that. Right. And it gets to be in modern day because I'm going to be talking to other people throughout the season about like the pioneer narratives of Christian romance, you know, all these things, that's all there, but [00:38:00]Amish get to bring it into the present day, into some present day issues with hyper modernity. One of my favorite things you say in your book is that these novels are kind of pushing back against hyper modernity while also cashing in on it and making tons and tons of money for publishers.

Valerie: Yeah, that is where kind of this concept of hyper modernity really helped me make sense of what was going on, because I just heard over and over again from readers, oh, it's, you know, they, they, these books helped me feel like I can slow down to that, the slow, simple pace of life. And I, you know, That's pretty obvious, right? Like I can't write a whole book about that, but when I realized that the, that the, that the novels were both somehow able to be for readers, this departure from hyper-modernity, even as many of them could only exist because of kind of a hyper-modern publishing apparatus, the kind of irony of that is so [00:39:00] interesting.

So yeah, I think probably one of my favorite chapters was the one about the kind of production end of Amish fiction.

Danielle: Yeah. So, um, I still keep thinking about, you know, walking into a Christian bookstore and just being really hit visually with, you know, this, this is in part about whiteness. You know, this is in part about what you call in your book like this virginal archetype, right. Of a Amish woman. And some of these books, the heroine leaves the Amish. Right? And it's too oppressive and, and she leaves, other times she doesn’t. So it's not like there's only one narrative or one storyline and all of these things, but there is that archetype that white evangelical women in particular seem very drawn to just wanting to be chaste themselves, wanting to be not influenced by culture, wanting, and then feeling free to share these with their community. These are all important aspects of why they continue to be so popular. I don't know if there's anything else, anything else you would add to this book in 2022?

Valerie: Thank you, your [00:40:00] questions and your points are right on. I mean, there is whiteness coded into the DNA of this genre that there's just no escaping. Will there ever be a day you'll walk into a Christian bookstore and there will be that many black women on covers? Unless Christian publishing itself changes. Um, and it's changing, but like as long as white supremacy exists and white evangelicals are driving the kind of taste making and the gatekeepers of the publishing industry or the media industry for their, you know, in the Christian world, it's, it's hard to, it's hard to imagine. And that, that leaves me with a lot of despair and sadness and fury. And, um, I don't know quite how I would have written the book, uh, with that level, with the level of despair and sadness and fury, um, that [00:41:00] I've, and I think a lot of us have felt in, in recent years.

Danielle: Yeah. And I think, uh, you know, this'll be something for me to continue to think about as I do this season. But in, in so many instances, like genre fiction is a place for people who maybe, have had outsider status to, um, you know, write stories where they see themselves front and center. And so like my own daughter, who's 11 is growing up with YA books, is growing up with graphic novels, is growing up with so many varied representations of what it's like to be human way more than I did. Right? And I grew up where even the Babysitters Club was a little too worldly for me, you know, that's my mom. Um, so, so I'm just like, there's such an explosion of diverse voices in fiction in particular. And then you go to a Christian bookstore and, and it is not happening there.

And it's, it's becoming an enclave of whiteness where, you know, you'll be safe if you're looking for whiteness. Um, and I think [00:42:00] that's really sad and an accurate representation of, um, you know, traditional Christian, uh, fiction. I, I would say I'm a non-fiction writer, so I see some movement in Christian non-fiction publishing towards diversity, uh, but not in fiction. So, uh, this is something to keep in mind.

Valerie: And even if it happens in like larger Christian fiction worlds, which I'm assuming it is or will be, I mean, how long do Black Christians put up with, you know, or other Christians of color put up with, um, the absolute, you know, lack of any attentiveness to their communities or issues. So, but, but, but that's not gonna, you know, I, I'm not sure, I don't know how Amish fiction changes. I could hold out a measure of hope that Christian fiction changes, but I don't know how Amish fiction changes with regard to whiteness. I mean, It just it's so, it's so encoded and encrypted [00:43:00] and, you know, deeply woven within its, um, identity as a sub-genre. I'm just not sure how, how it changes.

Danielle: Yeah, I don't think it can. And so it's a self-perpetuating and really profitable, um, you know, system that can only center whiteness. So yeah, it's good to be critical of it. It's good to, if you read these books, um, you know, make sure your diversifying the rest of your life. And that's a really important point too. You say in your book is, uh, women evangelical women don't just read Amish romance, women readers in general, you know, have a wide range of reading habits. It's really important to keep that in mind.

Valerie: Exactly. And certainly many of the women I talk to read very widely. They they're reading literary fiction, they're reading nonfiction. Um, certainly I would not want to be judged by every book that I've read. I mean, certainly reading habits, um, they, they belong to the realm of the imagination and, um, there, there, there [00:44:00] is a line to walk, yes. In terms of how we think about the connection between reading habits and politics and race. Um, but certainly, um, there are strands to, to pay, pay attention.

Danielle: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Valerie, for taking time out of your day to talk to me about this. Um, is there any projects or anything you would like to plug or talk about or have people find you on social media?

Valerie: Oh, goodness. I am so nonactive and lurky on social media. Um, so my day, I am an editor. I'm not doing much writing on my own these days. I could plug the authors I'm working with all day long. I work with a wonderful group of authors, um, at broadleaf books, um, for my day job. So broadleafbooks.com is a great place to find them.

Um, but yeah, I, uh, I would love to write another book someday. I don't see it happening anytime soon. Um, this is a really, really fun one to work on. And, um, maybe, maybe down the road, I'll find another topic as engaging as this one, but yeah, the broadleafbooks.com would be the [00:45:00] place I would point.

Danielle: Okay. And I am a Broadleaf author, but you were not my editor.

Valerie: No.

Danielle: Sadly. And I, when I reached out to you, I wasn't actually even thinking that we're both, you know, involved at Broadleaf, but we are. And so, uh, I'll plug Broadleaf, uh, authors as well. And, and I mean, I know nerds listened to this podcast, but seriously, The Thrill of the Chaste is a wonderful book. It's it is very academic, but it's very readable. It's fascinating. So interesting. It was quite a pleasure to read. So, thank you for writing it and thank you so much for coming on.

Valerie: Thank you so much. It's a total honor.[00:46:00]