I Did It My Way
DL and Krispin talk about S1 E12 titled “Mindy St. Claire” We ask whether you actually have any ethical choices in a capitalistic system and other questions that inspire hopelessness. Also, is the US the medium place?
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TRANSCRIPT
Krispin
DL: [00:00:00] Welcome, everyone, to This is the Bad Place, the podcast where DL and Krispin review episodes of the NBC show from 2016, The Good Place. We thought we'd remind you because, you know, we haven't recorded an episode since
Krispin: ince December.
DL: Oh my gosh, I was like, was it November even? Uh, I don't know. Who knows? It's been a while.
Krispin: Yes, we left you on a cliffhanger, which is what they did to us.
DL: In the first season of The Good Place, by the way, I remember finishing the, like, half of the first season and they were like, oh, come back in February. Yes, so we were basically, our devotion to this show is such that we wanted to also implement the same, like, continuity, right, of having a cliffhanger.
And also we needed to do a three part series on Christian Zionism. Right in the middle of when we had two episodes left of recapping this season.
Krispin: Which is how we roll.
DL: Exactly. we live in the medium place, and that's just what [00:01:00] happens, right? Um, Krispin,
DL: Did people listen to our Christian Zionism episodes?
Krispin: Yes, they did.
DL: Kind of like the same number that listen to these. Yeah. Which, I'm honestly shocked at how many people listen to these. We go through it so slowly. and we're very niche. Um, but I also think it speaks to like, this is a great show. People want to talk about it.
Krispin: So those of you that listen, you know, it fluctuates season to season, but we appreciate that everybody is, you know, kind of along for the ride. Because we feel like we're along for the ride of our own lives.
DL: Oh my god, 2024 is going to be a ride, by the way. Um, just like 2016 was when this, uh, first season came out. So I'm, I'm, there's some awful, like, callbacks
Krispin: Mm-Hmm.
DL: tumultuous times in American politics and people's perception of what does it mean to be a good person, quote, unquote, good, [00:02:00] because we're going to get into that today.
Krispin: Mm hmm.
DL: so you're running this episode, but I feel like I just keep talking. Sorry, Krispin. Well, I think it's about time for the synopsis of this episode titled Mindy St. Clair, Mindy St. Clair. And we're gonna find out in just a minute why it is titled that okay.
Mark Evan Jackson: I'm Mark Evan Jackson. I play Sean. Today we're talking about Season 1, Episode 12, Mindy St. Clair. Eleanor, Janet, and Jason escape to the Medium Place, where they meet a naked woman gardening named Mindy St. Clair. Mindy explains how she led a controversially selfish and cocaine fueled life, but then pulled off a last minute giant act of goodness, resulting in a huge fight between the good and bad places. living situation is a result of a compromise between the realms. advises Eleanor to just look after herself. Jason and Janet attempt sex. in the Good Place, Michael presents Eleanor's case to Sean. He reveals that Jason was also a mistake. friends argue on her behalf, but the judge watches [00:03:00] moments from Eleanor's life and the damning evidence is overwhelming. Sean uses walkie talkie mode on Janet to tell Eleanor to return in four hours or he will take her friends to Honey and Chidi instead. convinces Jason that they have to go back and they rush to the Good Place but are too late. Sean says they have to decide which two will go to the Bad Place. In a series of birthday flashbacks, including her own death, Eleanor remembers how she used to avoid relying on anyone and maintained her independence.
DL: Well, that was long
Krispin: Right. I I mean, here's my theory. Okay, is that the episodes that Mark Evan Jackson is in He spends a lot of time recapping them Well, I feel like there's a lot more Going on in these episodes, too. That's true, yeah.
DL: I mean, this was one of those episodes where it's like, yeah, not everyone is sharing the same storyline there in two separate places.
So, there's quite, twice as much to recap on. And there's more movement. It was visually very interesting. Cause, I mean, the Good Place neighborhood is interesting, but, like, the Medium Place is [00:04:00] so interesting to look at, right? Can't wait to talk about that part. Yeah, okay. Okay!
Krispin: Is there anything that you feel like got missed in the synopsis?
DL: Yeah, I loved The Medium Place because it felt like every beach house that I've ever been to. Yeah, so, are we talking about our favorite things now? Yes. About the episode? Uh huh.
Krispin: The Beach House Vibes. Which is basically just, like, time capsule.
DL: Right. Of 1980s middle class and upper wealth. Mm hmm.
Right? Yes, exactly. Yeah, I just, I think about the There's like a lamp there that's like, mod light pink. I don't even know if mod is Dusty Rose. Yes, exactly. On those like, white couches, like,
Krispin: yeah.
DL: And the gold plated end tables. And the VHS movies. Yeah. I mean, so yeah, let's get into it. Eleanor and Jason trying to run away so they don't go to the bad place [00:05:00] with Janet, they end up at the medium place where a woman lives named Mindy St. Claire. And so obviously she's been sent there, right? Because she had kind of had this life that was all about her cocaine, being a lawyer, making money. She decides to give it all away, but then dies. So she doesn't actually do good. But then that. Money did do good in the world
Krispin: Mm hmm.
DL: and I guess my question was, like, is this all a setup just to torture Eleanor and Jason more?
Krispin: I don't think so, but that was a question that I had.
DL: Okay. Right? Like, that is something that I had to keep reminding myself of. Like, this is all a ruse. Don't get sucked into The drama that's happening because everybody is in the bad place. But then that's a question like, is the medium place actually just part of the bad place?
Right. That's what you're asking. Yes. Yeah. [00:06:00] Is Mindy St. Clair a demon? Right?
Krispin: Do we ever find that out?
DL: I mean, I listened to the podcast that we got the synopsis from, Mark Evan Jackson ran it, and he was like, he interviewed the actress, whose name is Mary Beth Monroe, and he was like, no, she's legit.
Like, this is a legit scenario. Like,
Krispin: okay.
DL: she legitimately was put in the medium place. Which now, with hindsight, we know to torture her, right?
Krispin: Um,
DL: Or at least sort of whatever. But then that place is utilized to put more pressure on Eleanor and Jason to eventually go back, face the consequences, and save their friends from having to go.
More ethical conundrums, right? So the ethical conundrum We'll get, I guess we'll get to that.
Krispin: We need to still talk about our favorite things. We gotta talk about the medium. Um, I mean, yeah, I did love, I just loved everything about the medium place. Um, yeah, they're like, they're like, do [00:07:00] you want to watch, uh, this movie on VHS, Cannonball Run 2 or another VHS titled The Making of Cannonball Run 2? Really cracked me up because. It does have that same feeling of like going to a beach house and you're like, Oh, what movie do they have? And it's just like something terrible. Something terrible
DL:. And our kids will never know that pain. You know what I mean? Right. So true. They have so many devices.
Krispin: hmm.
DL: I want to go back to the opening scene of this episode.
It's Eleanor in Arizona in a grocery store,
Krispin: Mm
DL: she's just like throwing all this stuff. food in her car, all these chips
Krispin: Mm hmm.
DL: And, oh, do you notice the song that was playing in the background? It was Frank Sinatra's I Did It My Way. And This is gonna be a deep cut
Krispin: For like, certain people who grew up evangelical like me. I'm in that niche.
DL: Interrupt me then. What am I gonna talk about?
Krispin: About how Dr. Dobson, founder of Folks on the Family, hated that song
DL: Was it Dr. Dobson? Dobson talks about it in his book. Does he? Yes.
I didn't even make that connection, but keep going. Um, and, yeah, basically, like, here's an example of our culture.
Yes. That people want to do it their own way. They don't want to do it God's way. They don't want to follow the rules. They want to be rebellious and have autonomy. He didn't say the have autonomy part. Yeah. Wow. What's fascinating is, like, All these men, right, like, in evangelical land, like, had this kind of obsession with this song.
I did it my way. Um, I remember reading about it in, like, a novel. And I've been Googling it, and I think it's one by Randy Alcorn.
Krispin: Okay.
DL: We went to the same Bible college as him. He also lived in Gresham, I believe. Um, I read his novels when I was, like, You know, [00:09:00] teenagery, and one of them had this. I think it's the novel Deadline.
I think I finally found it on Google Books. And the whole thing is this guy dies and at his funeral, right? They play. I did it my way. And his best friend who's a protagonist is like, something seems really wrong about this, like, and like the person you Leading the funerals like this guy Doc will always live on in our hearts and the guy Jake's like no he's dead like he's dead and this kind of story got in like so many pulpits, so many sermon illustrations, like, yeah, how absolutely horrible this song is and what a horrible way to live your life.
DL: Right? We have to do it God's way, not my way, God's way. And what's fascinating is in The Good Place, what are they contrasting this with? So Eleanor, like, she's supposed to be sort of, monstrous in [00:10:00] these flashbacks. So what's the opposite? What is God's way in the world of this show at this point? It's being an ethical person, being a good moral, ethical person.
So I just think that's fascinating and it sort of triggered me and that my brain just went off because another one of the themes throughout this show has been this idea of like, Is it possible to be good under capitalism, right? Or in a system where like We don't even know how much our choices impact others.
And I think this is something that Mike Shure, probably thinks about a lot of people who, uh, obsess over ethical issues Right. Have this. And so Eleanor being in front of this wall of chips in the beginning, like really stood out to me because it's such an interesting picture of like, consumerism. Mm-Hmm,
Krispin: And
DL: And how capitalism is now at this point where like. Our choices [00:11:00] are so limited and so destructive, right? Because if you look at a grocery store, it looks like we have so many choices, right? For who to support, and some of them are like natural and organic ones. Like, have pictures of like, happy corn stalks or, you know what I mean?
When really, everything is owned by literally ten megacorporations. And they all do horrible things. They're all ruining our planet. All of them. No matter what you buy at a grocery Including Trader Joe's, y'all! I hate to tell you this! Just because something has good packaging…So to me, this is an indictment of advertising.
And sort of just, like, is Eleanor's decision to just not care about it Is that a valid reaction? Even like the guy outside the grocery store being like, do you wanna save the whales or the planet or whatever. It's so annoying to Eleanor because it's just like, I'm not the one ruining it. Mm-Hmm. , right?
Mm-Hmm. . These companies [00:12:00] inside this grocery store. Uhhuh. . Now you are laughing at me 'cause you think I'm going So in the weeds part of what I'm thinking about…
Krispin: this is what it's like watching media with dl Yeah. Is like. They will see one scene and extrapolate. I love it. I love that about you. The sin.
I'm also like, are we getting into the Bad Place segment, or are we just previewing it? We're previewing it. Okay. Okay. Okay. But I mean, yeah, the, I think it's, I, I, yeah, it is worth thinking about.
Krispin: And, cause I'm like, I want to respond and talk about like Jason's response later, but maybe we'll get into that later.
DL: I have so much more to say about this. I can come back because I have silly things that I like, too. Yes, let's go there. Speaking of Jason, I want to start with them trying to have sex and how they bumped into each other for two hours. I was confused. I'm like, Jason knows how to have sex.
Not with a robot. [00:13:00] But Janet doesn't know how to orgasm. Right. There we go. And then when Sean Yeah. She used the walkie talkie protocol and her mouth opened and
Krispin: and like, an alarm comes out and she's like, did I do it? Is she having an orgasm? It's pretty good. Also, I feel like Mark Evan Jackson doing that with Darcy Carden, like just talking into her mouth.
DL: It was very funny. Uh, well, similar to that, you know, Janet's learning about sexy things because Jason's teaching her about sexy things. These are my favorites of all the sexy things Janet mentioned. Cool snakes. 20, 000 followers on Instagram. Carl's Jr. ads…
DL: I'm going to keep coming back to advertising, and I'm going to come back to it again. Carl's Jr ads, I hate them. Yes. It's like, maybe that's the autistic part of me.
It's like, I don't want to be covered with burger sauce. Especially if I'm in a bikini? Right.
Krispin: It's easier to just wash off, get the ketchup in the pool. Wow. Okay. Um, I loved, speaking of Janet, I loved when, uh, Michael was wearing Janet's clothes. I know! That was amazing. Just seeing Ted dancing in the lilac.
DL: I wish he'd be wearing a skirt. In the lilac. Right? Uh huh. Oh, Ted dancing. Again, I was like, he is so underutilized. Uh huh. So true. As when he came in in Janet's outfit, I was like, I miss him. Uh huh. I need more of him. You know? Yeah. Um, okay, another one of mine is Jason talking about, like his, perception of hell is the movie Ratatouille, which is like my all time favorite Disney Pixar movie.
It truly is.
Krispin: huh.
DL: so to have it come out of Jason's mouth
Krispin: Jason’s mouth
DL: as to being his perception of hell and Tahani's perception of hell. What was it? I don't even remember.
Krispin: tap water and, like, bargain clothes and, like, basically, like, being
DL: so both of those were very funny to me. Yes, I knew that you would pick up on the Rataouille
And guess who's the only one who has an accurate perception of hell?
Krispin: Who?
DL: Chidi! People who think about existential horrors. Anywho. Now we should get into, this is the back place of the argument, which is where we talked about [00:16:00] the ethical dilemma, the philosophy. Yeah, I'm curious, like, what, you, you, you talked a little bit about this earlier, like, in a capitalistic society, right, what Okay. I think this show is making that argument argument in multiple ways. And I think this episode is, is one of the times they're slowly putting this out there. And I think this really comes to fruition when we get to Doug Fawcett in later seasons. So I think Mindy St. Clair and Doug Fawcett are tied together as different ways of being a human in a complicated world in the, in the medium place.
So, like, I think they're trying to make the case we live in the medium place.. Maybe the bad place sometimes. Maybe, you know. But we can work towards actual human connections that can create these pockets of goodness. So that's, like, what I think is the overarching theme. [00:17:00] Now, I did, I don't know if this is, like, the ethical conundrum of this episode.
I think it, I think it's there. But one of the things that stuck out to me is, like, without Taking trauma into account, we can act like it's pretty cut or dried if someone's a good person or a bad person. And so I think that's what I was sort of thinking about in this episode. And again, the reason I think this show is so fascinating, it's like, it says stuff that is really upsetting to me.
Like, Mindy St. Clair basically is saying like, there's no time for morality. This is about survival, right? And then later on, Eleanor Opens up to Jason about her parents, right? And we see what Eleanor's parents are like. And then the image of her alone eating the cake, which is a call back to her buying her own cake at her office job at first you think she's such a bitch and then you're just like Oh [00:18:00]my god, but she was like, I'm tired of using my parents as an excuse for being a terrible person It's time to move on I'm gonna go back and make sure Chidi and Tahani don't have to go to that place and I was like, are they setting this up on purpose like because later on it is Like you can't just say that you don't get to just say I'm tired of having my parents be my excuse, you know
Krispin: right?
Yeah,
DL: Right. It's yeah, that is really interesting what you thought about this
Krispin: that is like a good question. You did go for a long walk.
DL: I think that's a really good question because there is an element of like I mean, that's what I think is like what?
What do you do with the fact that you grew up a certain way and that impacts you in a certain way? Yeah, right. Like you said trauma And I I thought about that with like jason like because jason [00:19:00] just like all right, like we're off the hook And Eleanor is like no Tahani and Chidi are going to suffer instead of us And he's just sort of like yeah, this is how I like you just try to get away from things, right?
And I think that sort of fits like in his system, which is like there's no like There is this system that is going to punish people.
Krispin: you just try to get out alive.
DL: Yeah, I mean, in another another universe, right, Jason are Janet are these star crossed lovers and Eleanor is just pressuring them, basically, to go back and to die, right?
Or be suffered and separated for all of eternity. And who would we be rooting for? in another viewpoint, right? We'd be rooting for Jason and Janet, but instead it's like, well, Eleanor has changed so much. She's such a good person for doing this. And I was like, I think there's more going on here. And I think again, if we look at the scene at the grocery store and even like the guy out front trying to solicit donations for the earth, it's like, [00:20:00] when the systems are so massively fucked up, like a lot of this.
Krispin: Is just the…we have to view it as that of like, I'm a good person because I do this….
DL: I don't know. It makes my stomach hurt. I mean, I think what I walked away with was this idea of this is a system that is saying certain people have to suffer. And then it's up to the people in that system, under that system.
To try to figure out like who should suffer and who shouldn't. Right? Because that's, that thing is like, well, either, either these people suffer or those people suffer. And it's hard to say what the right thing to do is 'cause the, it's all predicated on this idea that someone should suffer. Well, the real, the reality is everyone suffers.
Right? [00:21:00] And I was thinking about that difference between like, who should suffer?
DL: everyone suffers in the world. Yeah. And in this first season of The Good Place, we don't know history, basically, single person in all of history basically goes to the bad place.
DL: Like Eleanor. It's lovely that your human connection is causing you to like move past some of your ingrained trauma responses and to care about other people and that's great.
Krispin: it doesn't mean you're a good person. Does that make sense? And what's also interesting about this is thinking about that like Eleanor is trying to save someone else from suffering But they're already all in the bad place.
They're already suffering, right? They're already suffering which brings up this question for me of like… What do you do with that? What do you do with the idea that like? Suffering exists and you are not responsible for alleviating it. [00:22:00] I think
Krispin: But that could also lead to a really, like, hopeless place.
DL: Oh, okay. Well, I'm not ready. You've got a leak in your stomach. I'm not ready to have this conversation, partly because I've just been thinking about it. So, like, last week I put up a post on my sub sac, kind of like my one year reflection on deconverting from Christianity, and I called it my year of being an angry atheist.
Now, of course I was going to get some responses from Christians. I did. Um, they were not great, which I was Not surprised by, but The one that sort of stuck out to me the most, right, was somebody who was basically like, Well, how, since you're not a Christian, like, atheists don't have a sense of, like, morality or ethics.
They just don't. It's just nihilism. You know, everybody just does what they want, because if there's no authority or hierarchy or God, like, And I was just so like, Hi, are you from the 1800s?
Krispin: Right.
DL: we don't do that anymore. Um, but he kind of doubled down and used [00:23:00] all these huge words, like, very Chidi energy
Krispin: yeah.
DL: And I was just sort of like, I'm sorry, the majority of humans at this point do not think people who are religious are more moral people. Like, that ship has sailed. However, if you're in your little echo chamber cult, you don't know that. And your whole life is predicated around reinforcing the idea that you are a more moral person becayse you’ve attached yourself to this religion.
Krispin: I mean, when you, when you told me about that comment, I thought of Chidi. Yeah. Chidi's not a Christian, and he has given his life to ethics and morality.
DL: this comment had big Chidi energy, actually, um, In his own way. Yeah.
Krispin: Yeah, just like, that's not the conversation any of us are having.
Do you think someone needs religion to be a moral or ethical person or to want justice?
Krispin: My [00:24:00] official stance is that it is helpful.
DL: I'm so excited! Official stance alert! Official stance alert!
Krispin: Religion is helpful for some folks, but religion has done, in my mind, a lot more to let people off the hook for ethical behavior rather than promoting it.
DL: And I know it's complicated.
Like our, our eight year old just the other day, it was like, why does that hospital have like a cross in it? And I was like, Christians were really involved in starting hospital, you know, it's just, but to cling to that kind of stuff and not engage in the reality where it's like, oh. Most of us can clearly see that being a Christian, being an evangelical Christian does not give you a leg up when it comes to human rights or morality, as the vast majority of the world would describe it at this point, you know,
Krispin: Right, exactly. Um,
DL: so all that stuff, so it just really kind of stuck [00:25:00] out to me. And so, yeah, so I'm not sure exactly what the main.
Krispin: I don't know what the ethical conundrum is of this episode, but I think it's making the case for a lot of really interesting, like, conundrums.
Krispin: hmm. Right. Yeah. I think there is an element of accountability here.
DL: Trigger alert! I hate that word.
Krispin: That they're, I think, sort of wrestling with and, and Eleanor kind of thinking about, like, what are the impacts of my actions and I don't want to pass that off to someone else. Yeah. You know, again, this is happening within this really broken system, but I think we're seeing that happen with Eleanor. For better or for worse.
Like, I think that's like, I think that is a good thing. It's an interesting thing. Yeah. Yeah. Harmful systems, right? It's just so interesting. And you and I have been doing work, right? Looking at evangelical parenting manuals, right? And how [00:26:00] they sort of, they try to replicate within the family. Like a toxic system,
DL: it’s replicated within churches. to like high control, authoritarian, you know, all this stuff. And I do think this episode shows Eleanor's parents, who are horribly neglectful and abusive, how that led her to be hyper individualistic, right? Which caused her to be, quote unquote, a bad, selfish person. And yet, I'm just like She has such a valid response.
Now, if she wants to move past those trauma responses, like, that's more what I see happening in the show. I'm not sure she's reading all these ethics books and becoming a better person. I think she's dealing with her shit. She's thinking about her childhood. She's thinking about how it impacted her. So it just upset me when she's like, I'm not going to use it as an excuse anymore.
DL: Cause that's like what so many people think happens when people like you and I Share [00:27:00]about our childhoods and what impacted us. Mm-Hmm. , you know? Right. Yeah, yeah, totally. I think the other thing that's happening for her is she's having safe, healthy enough relationships. Healthy enough. Totally. Right. Yeah.
And that is, you know, like signals to her like, oh, I, I maybe can trust other people, but she doesn't have that experience.
And now that's in part because of ho Her parents set her up to be individualistic, then perpetuated patterns where she would push other people away, which then made it hard for her to have that reparative experience.
Krispin: But Being trapped in with other people where you have to rely on them was a new experience for her. And, like you said, there's a lot of reparative work that has already happened. Right? Which is probably giving Eleanor the strength to make different choices. Out of a sense of her core values.
Maybe she's, kind of seems like she's always had some of these core values. They just had to be suppressed values and by her need to survive.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Right, yeah, totally. [00:28:00] Yeah.
DL: Yeah, I think that it's like, it's such an important episode, especially as we ramp up to the last episode. Oh my god, It's gonna be huge.
Krispin: Right, so, very excited about that. Shall we talk about, um, you might have religious trauma if
DL: But you need to do it.
Krispin: Okay, you might have religious trauma if… you were triggered by the man in power who shuts down if anyone shows any emotion.
DL: NOOOOO! Was that your same one? Yes, I said, You might have religious trauma if you had to learn to talk about abuse without any emotion in order to be believed. And it didn't fucking work! Let me tell you! Never does. Never does.
But, yeah, just, I mean, that whole Like, there's so many aspects to that. Yes. Basically, Sean is like If anyone shows any emotion, I just shut down. I am trying to make a logical judgment.
Krispin: And and they are not allowed to express any emotion. Right.
DL: You know? Yeah, which, I mean, just makes me think a lot. I think That's my childhood in a nutshell.
DL: I'm like, I think it applies to a lot of things.
Krispin: in broader culture, dominant culture
DL: Yes. White supremacy, but I think particularly about
Krispin: um,
DL: the places I've been in where people are like well we just have to read the bible and we can't let our emotions get in the way. Yes. And we can't. The let the way that we feel about other people get in the way. You know, in ESP [00:30:00] specifically, I'm talking about queer people, right? Mm-Hmm. . So you're not allowed to show any emotion when you're advocating for human rights for queer people or else you're dismissed. It's such an awful game that they play with us because they're never gonna change their minds, but they really want to feel like good people
Krispin: Mm-Hmm. Um,
DL: And so to keep us Feeling like it's our fault. Like I didn't explain it enough or I didn't say it well enough I used too much emotion, you know, they set up these stakes and …Fuck that. Like this is rampant Within white supremacist Christianity, it's not just evangelicalism, right? There's these like politics of respectability that you have to play when it comes to human rights.
Right. I would, yeah, I think across the board. Yes. Um, and I think this really shows up in so many ways, you know, it shows up with, uh, you know, the,
Krispin: I'm thinking about the, the misogyny of it, right? like, women are so emotional, men are logical.
DL: I hear [00:31:00] that in this, like, there's and now, right, there's this rhetoric even beyond like religion or whatever.
It's like “people are so angry and cynical and they're protesting for Palestine. They don't know what they're doing. And if only they could, you know,”
DL: So that's what I think. Yeah.
Krispin: Yeah. I mean, I, I listened to a podcast the other day with Jonathan Haidt who I've referenced before. Like I like, I've liked some of his work in the past.
DL: who is he?
Krispin: He wrote the book The Righteous Mind and he talks about like moral tastebuds and like why progressives and conservatives have different ideas of what is ethical. But, he's taking this turn, um, where he's saying that the younger generation has wisdom deprivation syndrome.
DL: Noooooooooooooooooooo.
Krispin: He had a label where he was like these young people they're just not listening to the old people anymore. And it's causing this problem, [00:32:00] and the problem is called wisdom deprivation. How old is this man? He's gotta be in his, like, 50s or 60s.
DL: Oh, this is very Shawn behavior. I'm gonna look it up. Uh, he's 60. Ah! This is the most boomer thing I've ever heard in my life. I know, right? And the lack of insight! Mm hmm. You don't care at all. You don't want to hear what the young people are saying, because they're pissed at you!
Krispin: Mm hmm.
DL: Exactly.
Krispin: Right. Mm hmm. Mm
DL: Mm hmm. Well, they're not. Yeah. And us, and those of us in the middle are caught in the middle. And obviously there's some boomers who don't adhere to that either,
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: in general, this is the vibe that's happening, but those, but guess what? Young folks don't care. laugh hysterically and make TikToks making fun of him.
So. Right, yes. Like I did. [00:33:00] Cause they don't have any wisdom.
Krispin: I can't even say wisdom deprivation syndrome with a straight face.
DL: Right, astonishing. That's the thing they'll lock us up for when Trump's president, I'm sure.
Krispin: You got any fun facts?
DL: I have some fun facts!
DL: Almost every single thing you can buy in a grocery store is owned by one of ten by megacorporations corporations ruining our planet.
Krispin: You should let other people tell you that they're fun facts.
DL: And guess what?
Krispin: What?
DL: When you're checking out of the grocery store, they'll ask if you want to donate a few dollars to end child hunger. Then when you're leaving, you'll get a costa to ask if you want to help save the planet.
Krispin: Should we talk about what happens when you donate to grocery stores? Which is that they take the money and then they get a tax write off.
DL: Don't ever donate to a grocery store.
Krispin: Cause yeah, they're like, [00:34:00] yeah, basically the way that it works, as I understand it, I haven't fact checked this, but like, They raise however many thousands of dollars from people that are like, yeah, I'll round up, and then they get to claim that as their own donation. Yeah.
DL: Which is weird. Now, as someone who has that, that ethical OCD thing, right? Grocery stores are a minefield for me. Mm-Hmm.
DL: that's not the fun fact at all, but I just, you know. Mm-Hmm. coming back to, okay. Fun fact, in the grocery store, Eleanor picks up one of those weird magazines, right?
That's at. The checkout stand. Now, when I was a kid, I was obsessed with those magazines of like Bat Boy and, you know, actually Trump was in them a lot. Like, what would you call them? Tabloids. Tabloids! There we go. Tabloids. So, when I was a kid, I was just shocked by all the headlines, right? And obviously that's what they're supposed to be. Now, we have social media. And so, tabloids are not a thing anymore. Eleanor picks up a magazine. Do you know what it's called? No. It's called Celebrity Baby Plastic Surgery Disasters. And then the headline is, 12 Baby Butterfaces You Won't Believe. Okay?
DL: on the back of the magazine, there is a perfume ad for a fragrance called Clyde That has an otter on it, and it's by Dennis Feinstein.
Krispin: Oh!
DL: it’s a Parks and Rec reference. Jason Mantzoukas, who plays Dennis Feinstein, ends up in this show at some point.
Krispin: Yes.
DL: I'm like, well, maybe if we keep going on this, we'll have to talk about that. Okay?
Krispin: Do a Mike Schur theory?
DL: Yes, the Mike Schur theory! Uh huh. I could do it. I could do it. Like the Pixar theory. Okay, the other magazine, next to the one that Eleanor picks up, is called International Sophisticate. And you wanna guess who's on the cover? Tahani! Tahani! Oh my gosh. And it says not [00:36:00] just Camila's sister.
Okay, Eleanor reads her horoscope, turns out she's a Libra. I don't know what that means, but all the horoscopes, because I paused it and read them. All of them are about Mars and Saturn fighting. That means something to people, and it gets progressively, like, more ridiculous. Um, another thing is there's this, like, part when Sean is, like, reviewing all the things Eleanor's done. Things that gave her the most negative points, I think. Did you see that list? And one, and they kind of talk about some of them, like a lifetime ban from Build A Bear Workshop. So that's something Eleanor did. I'm going to read you a few more things, okay?
Dogs drunkenly adopted then returned the next day, two times. Lied about age to eat off the kid's menu, which, That is a victimless crime, if you ask me, okay?
DL: Robbed the corporation.
Krispin: Exactly.
DL: Took a selfie in a bathroom at the great aunt's funeral. That's not that bad. No. The one that stuck out to me, and Chidi ends up mentioning it, say, how disturbed he was, was she started a fire at a mailbox to get a mailman to take off his shirt, which is pretty good.
I think that this is like, I think having those things on the list is a way that they're starting to show, like, that this system is really messed up. I mean, some of it was bad. Right. She screamed at 22 different waiters.
Krispin: hmm.
DL: people are mean to Staff that says something to you, they are dead to me. Mm-Hmm.
Okay.
DL: Ruin a movie, She did that 35 times. I like if someone ruins a [00:38:00] movie ending for me. It helps me feel safe. helps me feel like I know what's going on.
Krispin: going on. Um,
DL: Um, yeah. So yeah, I think you're right.
It's, it's supposed to be funny but also. Put these seeds in there. So those are kind of my fun facts. We got a listener question.
Listener: Hi, my name is Lisa Hamm, long time listener, would like to be considered a friend of the pod, sometimes gif bender, uh, and yes, gif, not gif. Go Um, I'm just calling because I was listening to your podcast you just put out, and mid podcast I realized motivations reminded me so much of how we used to talk through, well, it doesn't matter if good people do good things. Their works don't matter, because they're not doing it for God. it just felt like that conversation all over again, when you were talking about motivations. I just wonder, maybe motivations don't matter. Maybe if it's helpful, it's helpful. And if it's not, it's [00:39:00] not. I don't know. Deconstructing alongside everyone else, so. Just a thought in my brain I wanted to send. Plus I heard there was a rumor that there was free stuff sometimes, but I live in Canada, so I'm not sure if that counts. love you guys, I'll keep listening. Talk to you later, bye.
Krispin: Lisa!
DL: we know Lisa because Lisa's in the Facebook group. Yeah.
Krispin: Chatting and sharing things.
DL: And Lisa, I'll figure out, I'll figure out how to get a key chain to Canada without breaking the bank. I
Krispin: thought you were going to say without breaking the law.
DL: Oh. For one, that's a great question, right? That, like, intention versus impact sure that there are ethicists out there that have thought over this over and over again, but what really stood out to me about this, um, what Lisa is bringing up, is this idea of just what we were talking about earlier, where Christians talk about ethics, but then they can often, evangelicals, have all these loopholes, right?
That, like, really get them out of [00:40:00] looking at the actual impact. Yeah. Right? It's sort of like, it's, it's God's reality, it's not the reality of the world. Therefore, we don't have to like consider the actual impact or consider like how things actually play out. It's really just about God. It's not about what's going on here in reality with people.
Yeah. And it's so interesting because like people who come from high control environments are very concerned. Like if you pursue autonomy and privacy in your own mind, like then you're not, You're not going to care about other people, you're not going to be doing it at all. So therefore, when you're in the high control situation, it's like you have to do it for the right reasons, you know, for God, for the good of society, for all this stuff.
And I'm like, I think we're at a point where we can say like, that doesn't really work that way. When people feel safe, when their basic needs are met, when, um, you know, they can actually start to live out their values, right? [00:41:00] A lot of people want to help rather than hurt others, right?
Krispin: Not like a huge chunk of folks.
DL:
So I just think some of that stuff, the motivation, because obviously that showed up in this episode too, right? They were like, Eleanor should not to go to the bad place because she willingly sacrificed herself. And therefore, and I'm like. Again, it's making them look kind of silly because that's not actually what she did at all.
Um, and the motivation thing just keeps everyone tangled up in knots and not able to look at the system as it needs to be. Yes, totally. Right. And it really does. Then it focuses on people's internal worlds. Yeah. Right. Not on the external system for sure.
Krispin: Yeah, this fits into oppressive systems as well. Like with people with more power. When they harm people with less power, but they have this idea like but I meant well Or I'm a good person or I'm [00:42:00] a kind person or whatever, right? But it doesn't actually look at like what's the impact that you have on this person? Yeah Right, so I think that's really important to like, yeah I would just recognize like this upholds a lot of oppressive, a lot of oppressive systems.
DL: totally so so much. Lisa, thanks for leaving that voicemail,
Krispin: Y'all can also leave voicemails
DL: Hey, I'm gonna ask listeners a question right now. Okay?
DL: Do you think America, that includes Canada,
Krispin: Does it include Mexico?
DL: Yeah, okay. Is it the good place, the bad place, or the medium place?
Call in, make your case, Maybe you'll, maybe you'll get a keychain. Okay. Love that.
Krispin: It's a Great prompt. Now we have arrived at the segment we call, This is a Good Place, where we talk about something good. Okay. What's [00:43:00] Now, oh, you have to go first, because once again You're struggling? I have to think while you, yeah, while you talk. It's because you spent all your time thinking about all the
DL: Yes, exactly.
Krispin: For me, what's good right now is music.
DL: I feel like I've said that before, I always say music, but it's just an important part of my life. I watch the Grammys. I try to just ignore everything that is going on behind the scenes.
Krispin: You know, because it's, you know, we are part of all these messed up systems, but I do just appreciate that music exists in the world. And so that was a really fun experience.
Krispin: And, um, yeah, just always a good reminder to me that, that music gives me life. Yeah.
Krispin: How about you?
DL: Um, I'm like, what's the most medium place [00:44:00] thing that I have enjoyed this past week? the medium place thing I was going to say is I got some Korean skincare off of Costco. com. The snail…
Krispin: mucus!
DL: and it's very ornately packaged. I've never done anything like this in my life, but I did it in the throes of having severe facial Trauma, concussion, fractured nose.
And so I've been like gently putting snail mucus on my face. I think my skin looks great,
Krispin: Okay.
DL: Um, but the other good thing is I got a really killer tattoo this last weekend that is not religious. In nature, which some of mine are, and it has a mushroom and things from the Oregon forest floor. Both you and I love a good little micro ecosystem of Oregon.
And, um, my tattoo artist was autistic [00:45:00] herself, and we just talked about cats and existential crises for four hours straight, and it was great. That's good.
Krispin: cool.
DL: cool, right?
Krispin: it
DL: like, am I cool enough? It's so big compared to my other tattoos.
Krispin: really cool
DL: Yeah, that's what's good in my life too, because I am actually going to look at it more than you will.
I know it's so true. And it was a surprise. You had no idea what I was getting.
Krispin: yeah
DL: Did you like it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I love it. If you didn't, you wouldn't say that's great. That's why I love you. It was a surprise too, like how big it was. Yeah. It was so great. We will wrap it up here. Thanks y'all for listening.
Come back next time.
Krispin: for the season finale of the a good place. And also it's the big one. This is the bad place since we're a recap podcast. So they're one in the same. I don't know why I'm overexplaining the format of this podcast. I realized that, uh, DL just mentioned, uh, the face getting banged up, Uhhuh for the first time, I think on this podcast.
Oh, oops. Uh, if you wanna [00:46:00] hear more about that, uh, become a Patreon, become a patron on our Patreon. Could we talk a little bit about that and some other stuff in our most recent episode? Yeah, I got a concussion, but I'm not gonna start a cult, okay? Or some type of theology that ends up impacting Palestinians centuries later.
That will make sense if you listen to our Zionism episodes! Right. John Nelson Darby alert! Uh huh. That means, yeah, that coincidence of talking about someone who had A brain injury, and then you got a concussion. Yeah. Right after. Mm hmm. If you join our Patreon, you can also join us in the Facebook group. Lots of religious trauma processing art over there. It's great. Which we love. Great stuff. So yeah, we'd love for you to join us there, but, um, otherwise, we will be back soon. Thanks for listening.
DL: Take it sleazy![00:47:00]
