Strange Bedfellows
The book we are discussing is The Gates of Zion by Brock and Bodie Theone.
You can follow Josh’s work over on his substack called New Means. He mostly covers issues of labor but most recently has been writing from a Jewish perspective on the dangers of zionism.
“Zionism was the air we breathed. To me it seemed so normal, it was not something we investigated consciously.”
The single largest zionist organization in the US Christians United for Israel. You can read more about it here.
The current speaker of the house, Mike Johnson, is a rabid Christian zionist.
Jewitches has a great podcast, post, and infographics on Christian zionism.
They write: “The largest Zionist organization has more Christian members than there are Jewish Americans alive. As of 2021, there are roughly 7.5 million American Jews. Christians United for Israel alone has over 10 million Christian members. There are more than 30 million Christian Zionists in the United States alone, according to the author & academic Tristan Sturm. That’s double the population of Jews worldwide.”
Here is a quick biography of Brock and Bodie Theone.
In 1978 while working on The Fall Guy, she [Bodie] told John Wayne about her desire to write about the events surrounding Israel's statehood. "That's one you ought to do," Wayne said. "It's the Jewish Alamo!" An unusual series of circumstances directed Bodie into the Zion project. A producer persuaded her to write a script centering on the day in 1948 when Jerusalem's mayor received from the British the key to the Old City. For the first time in 2,000 years, a Jew held the key to the city gates. While an intriguing story to Bodie, the producer needed the script in three weeks.
“Due to such careful research, The Zion Covenant and The Zion Chronicles series are recognized by the American Library Association, as well as Zionist libraries around the world, as classic historical novels and are used to teach history in college classrooms.”
O Jerusalem was a book published in 1972 that was a popular history of the creation of the nation-state of Israel. Here is some good background info on the book and what its aims were.
One of Bodie’s recent facebook posts mentions “the door of the Ark is about to close” The rest of their facebook page is just one big trigger warning/red flag.
You can Join our patreon comamunity to support this podcast and gain access to two extra episodes each month, our facebook community, as well as the backlog of patreon-only episodes covering evangelical media, spiritual abuse, and more.
You can follow The Bad Place Podcast on Twitter and Instagram. You can follow Krispin on Instagram here and Danielle on Instagram here.
TRANSCRIPT
DL: Okay. Welcome to the Prophetic Imagination Station. We are finally tackling a book and a book series that I've been wanting to talk about on this podcast for a really long time, but weirdly enough, it was really hard to find people who wanted to talk about these books with me because they are romances that deal with Christian Zionism.
Yes, you heard that correctly. We're going to be talking about Brock and Bodie Theone or Taney, these authors that a lot of evangelical Christians have heard of, and probably most other people have not. So today, before we get into all that, I'm so excited about the person I'm talking to today. It's Joshua P. Hill. Maybe I can call you Josh, but you write as Joshua P. Hill. And I started following Joshua's writing last year because you were just on fire when it came to reporting on labor issues. And I wrote a book on Dorothy Day, so I got obsessed with labor. stuff [00:01:00] as well. Just researching her early life.
I found your subsec and now you are in the thick of writing from a Jewish perspective and from an anti Zionist perspective, which I think honestly has a lot of overlap with solidarity work and labor movements. But that's my perception. How about you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself?
Joshua: No, that was spot on. Thank you. Thanks, DL. Where to begin? Most recently, I've certainly been doing a lot of writing about Zionism…or anti-Zionism. That's why I'm interested and intrigued to talk to you about it. And yeah, writing about it from my perspective, a Jewish perspective, Jewish upbringing and so interested to learn about the Christian perspective, which I grew up knowing nothing about when it comes to Zionism.
I work in I guess media, social media, often labor space.
DL: Yeah. So would you mind just telling me and, everybody listening a little bit about your background and how you were raised.
Joshua: yeah, so I [00:02:00] was raised in a Jewish home. To parents who are not super religious, but are somewhat religious, but more importantly for the Zionist element of my upbringing, they sent me to a Jewish day school. so I was learning Hebrew and Bible every day, and I was learning that primarily from or largely from Israelis who had come to the States and were teaching, and in terms of this conversation, I think one of the really relevant things is that Zionism was. It was just like the air we breathed, it was not, to me, it just seemed so normal. It was not something that we investigated consciously. It just was taught to us by people who had grown up in it and thought it was as natural, in particular for Jews, they thought it was the most natural and, obvious thing in the [00:03:00] world. And it didn't get questioned. And so when the whole history of Israel Palestine was taught to us in a totally, biased way. And when and current events were discussed through that lens too, and it just was also normal and like a fact of nature, a fact of life, fact of history.
And it was only when I was probably a teenager, my, my childhood best friend was born in Jerusalem, to an Israeli mother and a Jewish South African father, and this friend started to talk to me about flaws or faults of Zionism and of Israeli society. It gave me permission to look or prompted me to look at something I just never looked at, just thought was like a fact of life.
And then from there it was a rapid, fairly rapid change. Yeah, that's the short version.
DL: Yeah. No, thank you so much for sharing that. I'm wondering because our audience is a lot of people who come from evangelicalism or have some sort of [00:04:00] relationship to that and they don't always understand Zionism, even from the evangelical viewpoint. I'd be curious if you just want to sum up what Zionism is from a Jewish perspective, because, and then I'll chime in with how it's different for evangelicals.
Joshua: the perspective I grew up with, it was The idea that the Jewish people had an inalienable right to live in what is now the state of Israel, Palestine. I never heard the word Palestine growing up, for what it's
But an inalienable right to live in that area because of religious, historical religious History, history in the land from, from the Old Testament, and we heard less about the political, Theodor Herzl and the actual Zionist movement because that historicizing of it makes it a little less of a fact of nature or a fact of life.
It's just that, Jews had this inalienable right to live there and a right to quote unquote defend itself at all times. and of course, everything is [00:05:00] framed in this self defense narrative. And that, that homeland, or as they would call it, was It remains necessary for the safety of Jews everywhere.
Probably the other biggest facet of it. The way I was taught. Yeah.
DL: it was just like, we just know what God says through the Bible. And we just happened to know that. And there was so little emphasis on church history. And I think that's all kind of strategic for sort of propaganda purposes, because you're right. As soon as you start looking at dates at history, you start being like, Oh, these are just human beings, doing some stuff.
So that's fascinating. Now, the difference between. Probably what you were being taught [00:06:00] in school and what I was being taught by a mother who was very into Christian Zionism is this element of like end times prophecy or the book of Revelation coming true and When you add that element onto it, I think it makes for a pretty horrifying Stew.
DL: I know I sent you the audio of me talking to my partner Christopher about this stuff I'm curious if you have a background or any experience with Christian Zionists and what your perception of that is.
Joshua: I mean, I've only learned a tiny bit in the last of years mostly because in the modern U. S. political landscape, it's so important the single biggest pro Israel lobby is Christian Zionists. And so I felt like I needed to learn from that angle. And I would really love for more Jewish [00:07:00] Zionists to be aware and non evangelical, just for people to be aware of that dynamic because I see specifically Jewish Zionists allying with people who, whose vision of, Israel is one that means a lot of Jews dying and basically, or this mass slaughter is my understanding.
Yeah. So people find themselves with these bedfellows who don't actually have their best interests in mind. And have this to what is to me a strange and alarming vision for what happens in the land of Palestine.
DL: Yeah, I think what's hard for me, growing up with evangelical Christianity and a mom who was so sure of all this and, apocalyptic theology has been a huge part of the American Christian story that I think people don't know what to do with it. And so it's seen as a fringe movement, but if we look at the trends in publishing, if we look at the majority.
of Christians have some sort of end times [00:08:00] theology that they've thought through I think it's something that needs to be talked about so much more. And you're right, I find it so short sighted that Jewish Zionists would embrace Christian Zionists.
Joshua: Yeah.
DL: Because the Christian Zionists, like all the ones right now, if you read their blogs, if you follow them on Facebook, if you follow them on social media, they are frothing at the mouth for the big end thing is happening.
It's all happening. And they're really excited. But what this means for everyone who's not one of the new chosen people, which again, is pretty horrifying. That's how evangelicals view themselves, right? They're the new chosen people. And so they believe that they're Jews all around the world will move back to Israel, and once they're all there there's going to be this huge battle, and everyone's going to die.
Jews, Arabs, everyone. And Christians will be long gone because that's the rapture theology, that's the end times theology. And So we're talking about a romance book today. [00:09:00] And the people who wrote this romance book, that's what they believe. That's what my mom believed.
That's what my mom raised me to believe. Now, did they focus on how all the Jewish people were going to be killed? Not too much, but still, that's such an important part of their worldview. And these are people who are, Speaker of the House in the United States these are people who hold this viewpoint.
They think the world is ending soon, so that doesn't give me a lot of hope in the long term efforts to try and keep Jewish people safe. Anywho, that's my rant about all that. If you have any thoughts on that.
Joshua: My one thought is just it becomes this accelerationist thing where, you know, these evangelical Zionists in particular are on board with the mass slaughter if they see it going towards this ultimate good. When I was thinking [00:10:00] about how that connects to the book that we're about to discuss, there's just this dehumanization of Arabs and Jews that I see are like a flattening or, they're not They're like pawns in this long game rather than fully fleshed out people.
Yeah, we're seeing that play out right now and it's just this, there's some overlap with the far right, with Netanyahu and them in this not seeing Arabs as people
DL: Exactly.
Joshua: And then, to Netanyahu, these Christian Zionists are probably pawns to some degree, too, that he thinks are furthering his goals of arming him and funding, that regime to commit this slaughter.
So it's such a, it's dirty and it's bad on all sides there. Yeah.
DL: And it's so short sighted, and the only end goal is more suffering and more violence. And American Christians, if they have any background with Zionism have been prepared for this inevitable genocide, which is why I think American Christians are [00:11:00] not resisting it in any way, shape, or form, because they've been told this would happen.
And now they view it as proof that they're right. They are the chosen people. And so the apocalypse, the end times, all of this escalating of violence in the state of Palestine to them is great, we are right. This proves we're right, that God's coming. And what do you do with somebody who Is really excited about being proven right about genocide,
Joshua: yeah. You, you talked about this a bit on your last episode, which is that part of the the end times history in American Christianity it can be pushed back again and again. The aliens didn't come yesterday, but.
That's because their ship was on a day,
DL: Yeah.
Joshua: that's a different sort of cold, but the rapture didn't come yesterday, but because we've miscalculated based on this passage, and it's coming in 10 years.
And do you do when in those 10 years? displacement and genocide and it's
DL: Yeah.
Joshua: how was struggling listening to you to fit together [00:12:00] the people who has had our heads are in the clouds are in this reality almost to me,
DL: Yes, they are. They're absolutely.
Joshua: one I grew up in and and exist in right now, I think, and when the concrete reality that's on the ground is so bloody Anyway
DL: they're pretty de lulu, but I will say that right now, they are feeling good and they are feeling like God is revealing all the prophecies are coming true. So that's why I'm like, we got to do this podcast now because
Christians who are Zionists are probably at their most dangerous right this very second, right?
And they will say, all of this is a part of God's plan, we will not stop it and we will just continue to fund Israel knowing that the vast majority of Jewish people we believe will be slaughtered, right? So there's that. I just want to say really quick I don't know if you're familiar with the organization Jew Witches, but they talk about Jewish spirituality.
They have a Christian Zionism 101
Joshua: [00:13:00] largest
DL: And so there are, it says as of 2021, there are 7. 5 million American Jews and, not all of them are practicing religion, right?
But Christians United for Israel alone has over 10 million Christian members and that there are more than 30 million Christian Zionists in the United States alone. And that's double the population of Jews worldwide. And again, Their belief is that a genocidal holy war is coming that they will be yeeted out of before it gets really bad, but it's their job to usher it in.
Sorry to say all that, but that's what we're talking about and to end, let's get into the book that I've been wanting to talk about for forever, which is a book called The Gates of Zion by Brock and Bodie Theone.. And this is a part of a series called the Zion [00:14:00]Chronicles. It was published in, oh no, I should have had this ready.
I believe it was 1988. Oh, 1986. So I was two years old when this book was first published. But when I was like a middle schooler and a teenager, these were. in all the church libraries that I ever saw. And so this is a funny thing about American Christian publishing is that these books like spread like wildfire, throughout churches, small groups.
And I've always been interested in how Christian publishing has targeted white women, and catered to them. And I think in general, white evangelical women have been really understudied when it comes to their political power and, how they uphold systems of violence. So that's why I think talking about romance, talking about Christian Zionist romance, it's so niche.
And yet I think it actually has some insights for today. So
Joshua: yeah,
DL: that, What do you think of this? What do you think of this?
Joshua: [00:15:00] The big thing I was thinking is that it's not as niche as it might seem, the, those 30 million that you were just talking about, it's a huge number of people and just somehow living in like a parallel track over there, at least to me not to you and probably not to many people listening.
I think it should be, unearthed, especially right now, like you said, so important.
DL: Yeah, okay Bodie Theone., just really quick background before I read the synopsis of this book, and I sent you a few sections of this book, I did not make you read this whole book because it's a really long book that is not great writing, but Bodie Theone. In 1978, she was working on like a biography of the guy who was the stunt double for John Wayne and she met John Wayne and she wrote some scripts for him.
And so she told him, she told John Wayne I really want to write about how the nation state of Israel was created. And John Wayne was like, You've got to do that. And he said, it's the Jewish Alamo. And then Bodie was basically [00:16:00] asked by a producer to write a script centering on the day in 1948, when Jerusalem's mayor received from the British, the keys to the old city.
Okay. And so that was what she was asked to do. I don't think that was actually made into a movie or anything, but that's where she ends up getting the idea to write a series of novels. And she, and her husband, who has a PhD in history, I'm sad to say they've written over 65 different books that are all historical fiction in some way or another, and they've sold, over 35 million copies, probably a lot more than that, because these stats are all quite old.
And the sad thing about these books is that because Her husband, Brock, has this history degree, Christians, especially in Christian schools, and even Christian colleges they use some of these books in their history classes. And that is something that the Taney's are very proud of. And in fact, on one of their websites, it [00:17:00] says.
Zionist libraries around the world consider these classic historical novels and are used to teach history in college classrooms. So there's all that. So we got John Wayne's blessing on this, okay?
Joshua: Alamo.
DL: the Jewish alibi. What do you think that means? What does
Joshua: No, when I read that, I was like, what? In this you were kind enough to send me a brief bio of this couple. And one of the things that jumped out to me is that when they were in LA, some bookstore looking to talk to somebody about 1948, they asked for, Oh, Jerusalem, which is in in my like circles or whatever, growing up was like, is a classic and it's similar, which is like a little eerie to me, but it's a historical fiction about 1948 and the, leading up to the declaration of statehood of any, and. The initial war of 1948 and not quite well, terms they would use, but it's like turning what, to many Palestinians and to many people is [00:18:00] tragic. And even to many Jews is like a difficult. Moment of war and the establishment of the settler state and all this into that John Wayne thing into this these fighters were outmatched and they were bed their backs against the wall.
And it's wait, is
Wars and colonialism, war, all these things like aren't sexy. But to John Wayne and, Maybe, apparently there's some other people, that have turned into this distorted thing.
DL: yeah, I mean I think John Wayne right is Was a kind of a master propagandist and that's what he made. He made propaganda movies about white Western, Christian patriarchy winning And I think it's interesting that in the 1970s there was the sense like this kind of treatment also needs to be towards other, empires that are struggling hard to make their message resonate with The masses in the United [00:19:00] States.
And so I think it was very strategic. What's interesting about this story of Bodie Theone going into like the Jewish part of LA and looking for a copy of Oh, Jerusalem is that she's now twisted that story in an evangelical Christian way, which is God led her to meet someone who actually survived 1948, which means everything she writes is what she calls Holy Spirit breathed.
And so it adds this extra layer of, it's not just propaganda. It's not just historical fiction. It's not just taking on the Jewish idea of the mythologizing of 1948, but now we have the evangelical spin of God's directing me to write about this and everything in her life and everything she writes is just, it's all God.
Anywho, that's another gross element.
Joshua: No, totally, no. Divinely inspired to write romance novels about Israel.
DL: So I'm going to just really quick give a summary [00:20:00] of the book and then you can tell me, based off the snippets I sent you, just some thoughts you had. Okay, so here's the summary of the book from. Good reads actually. Okay. Ellie, a young American photojournalist, finds herself in Jerusalem of 1947. She unwittingly becomes a pawn in a political chess game when she photographs some ancient scrolls discovered by Bedouins.
David seems to love her dearly. But, Moish, I'm not sure how to say that name, I'm sorry, has a purpose and a commitment in life that intrigues her more than she can say, he's a Zionist. Through it all, Ellie discovers a people, a spirit, and a person, I think that's Jesus, who proudly changed the direction of her life.
The first book in the Zion Chronicles vividly portrays the intense struggle of the Jewish people in the aftermath of the Holocaust and the forces within and without which engulfed the Middle East in conflict and controversy, even today. Okay. Okay. Okay. Now, based off the snippets I sent you, what was your sense of this book?
Joshua: Oh, there's a lot. First of [00:21:00] all, I think it's funny, or Interesting that character's name is Moshe, which is Hebrew for Moses,
Which, conveniently inserted that reference. I think the first thing that struck me was that and I don't know if this was intentional, but the Jews who are trying to get to Palestine, the British protector, whatever it was called, 1947 going to 1948. They're portrayed as the underdogs, and the authors are really, at least to me, initially portraying the British as the big evil, the big evil empire, and
Was wondering if that's a sort of callous, an attempt to appeal to American audiences, like they are also fighting the British, and were these, the Jewish Refugees and smugglers trying to get people, into the land of Israel are they're the underdogs just like us, like fighting the British just like us felt, a little, Hand fisted [00:22:00] buddy, but I'm sure it worked for plenty of people.
And, in that bio you sent, there's this whole emphasis like the PhD that you mentioned that my husband has in history. Of everything here is factual. We
Archives.
Here is just pure fact and there were, for example, limits to the number of Jews that could get in while the British were in charge and Jewish smugglers and people did try to circumvent those did successfully circumvent those restrictions.
But all history and of course, doubly so with historical fiction, it's what facts are you choosing to pick out here?
DL: Right.
Joshua: Plenty of it's not factual, but the facts that are chosen are so clearly trying to craft this image of these, at least initially of these like Jewish underdog characters against the, some really funny, like strong language. Oh yeah, these English thieves and stuff like that, like just
Really calling the British dirty and all this stuff, which just felt like a lot. But and of course, pairing that with no real acknowledgement, at least from what I remember of the Jewish, the settler [00:23:00]like Ames or, as like colonialism or anything like that is of course not mentioned, at least from what I remember.
But it's just the sort of two dimensional portrayal of the Palestinian characters, the character that got the most attention. Or like the most prominent is this with Jews or Israelis now might call like this terrorist leader sort of character. I'm blanking on his name, but to me, he was the one that like jumped out as like the most powerful character is one who is all set on violence against Jews.
The moment the clock strikes midnight, basically.
DL: Yeah. No, I, so I think it's interesting you mentioned the British thing because I think sometimes, like I know me growing up white evangelical I've been desensitized to the caricatures Christians have against Muslims in particular, right? So I think that is not surprising to see that happening a lot in this book, right?
The Arab people and Muslims are very violent, like, all this stuff, but the [00:24:00] British thing didn't really stand out to me, which is hilarious, but I did find this review and somebody like, I don't even know if they're a Christian or anything, but she wrote this review of the book and she's it was so weird because I'm from England and the way this book talks about British people, like the British soldiers are always like, slurping their coffee really loudly and like they have these cockney accents, even though nobody else in the book speaks with an accent.
And they're all just seen as so stupid and everybody hates them. And so she was like, I just don't really understand like a lot of the history is seems very slanted towards an American perspective. So maybe this is just a part of it. And I was like, I totally miss that. But yes, in this novel, it's like everybody hates the British.
Joshua: Which is probably true, like everybody probably did hate the British there that time, fair enough, maybe but I was wondering if you thought that it was also part of an effort to like, [00:25:00]reinforce the idea that Jews are supposed to control the land,
DL: yeah. And Americans, good Americans, people who are following God who are Americans have always supported the Jewish people. And so I think the main character truly in this book is this young white woman who, Ellie, who eventually learns To follow God and that God has a plan to use her in this big important event.
And so she becomes a Zionist, right? There is a Jewish guy, Moishe, who is in love with her, but by the end, don't worry, he ends up with another Jewish person because we can't really have All that. And eventually him and his Jewish wife do convert to Christianity. So don't worry about that either.
Okay. Like
Joshua: wow.
DL: they're going to, you could not have them remain. They're going to be Messianic Jews. Okay. So Ellie eventually ends up with the other, the white guy who also becomes a Christian, maybe he [00:26:00] becomes a Zionist, freedom fighter. And it's, so it's all through the story of a white woman and how she learns to support.
The nation state of Israel and support Jewish people and every twist and turn, right? Her life is threatened by Muslims and Palestinians, right? Who are just violently against this. And so she eventually learned she's on God's side, which means everything she does is for a purpose and all the sufferings worth it.
So that's where all that ends up.
Joshua: Wow. Wow. I guess I'm not surprised. It's just, it's hard to imagine writing 60 books like that, that have this, I assume, a sort of similar trajectory again and
DL: Yeah.
Joshua: Teaching
DL: Yeah.
Joshua: Yeah. Wow. They're taught at colleges.
DL: Yeah, they have a history degree. Okay, so what else? What else do you want? But I do think the primary reader is supposed to identify with Ellie. And in the beginning, Ellie is very confused, [00:27:00] right? She's just there to be a photojournalist. And slowly through the course of the book, she becomes aware that the Zionist perspective Is the one that is fighting on the side of God and that as Americans, God wants her and David and others to support that.
And that no matter what happens, God has her in, his hands. And so that's why she ends up surviving all these things that most people wouldn't survive. But yeah, so that's that's the through line there.
Joshua: you're just making me think that from the first interaction that Ellie has with Palestinians that I remember, Is this like the men, these two men from the jump are making, according to the author, these two Palestinian men are like making, jokes about us, like sexually assaulting her and
DL: Yeah.
Joshua: like from the, that's how the Palestinians are portrayed from the German.
It's just really, yeah. It's gross.
DL: And it gets a lot worse from there. We've already talked about some of [00:28:00] these questions, but just even from this small snippet to you, how are Jewish people portrayed in the white evangelical imagination?
Joshua: It feels to me, it feels like this means to an end sort of thing, like support is conditional, but also the support of from the author's perspective. And from that evangelical Zionist perspective, it seems to me like the really the defining thing that I keep coming back to is that. If Jews weren't wrapped up in this prophetic, or, that word feels too kind almost, but in this idea of the end times, if Jews didn't have an important role to play, then where would we be in this
In the author's imagination, or? In the thinking of Christian Zionists, and it just feels this relegation to if somebody is just there to be used, it feels very unpleasant, but I don't know the exact word, just it's not really a full personhood or a full three dimensional
DL: Yes.
Joshua: To these authors if we're just here to be used in some way yeah, and then I, yeah[00:29:00] it's a strange back and forth because I know that to some Zionists. still a gratefulness or a gratitude like, Hey we're getting your support, and it, the strange bedfellows.
DL: Yeah. And I know people make those kinds of choices all the time when they feel their safety is on the line, but I do think it's important to play out. So this book is set in 1947, right? On the eve of the creation of the The nation state of Israel. And I think it's interesting the quotes that they put in here from real people like David Ben Gurion.
Am I saying that right? Ben Gurion. And the big quote that they're obsessed with is when he says, in the end days, it is said that the lion and the lamb will lie down together. I think even then I would rather be a lion. And I'm like, is this talking about? Evangelical Christians and Jewish do they both think of themselves as the lion in this scenario of the lion and the lamb, being together?
I don't know. I was just that struck me.
Joshua: think [00:30:00] you just said it perfectly. I think that's exactly what they think. They both think that. thinks that they're the sort of dominant partner or dominant player who sees it more clearly. I guess to me it's funny because the Christian or the evangelical perspective is based on this thing that I'm pretty sure isn't going to happen. But I'm, yeah, like I'm, and then so therefore the Ben Gurion's and the Netanyahu's or
That they, make them clear that they're the lion but the quote, the lion or the dominant player in order to do what, like you get licensed to then kill all these people, it's it's like, what's the, a very hollow victory to me.
Yeah, as we're, see playing out right now. Yeah.
DL: Yeah, and I think that even so the book this book sort of bypasses all like the end times genocide stuff by staying in [00:31:00] 1947 and 1948. But any Christian who is aware of dispensational theology, which is the majority of Christians in America, right? They believe nobody wants to stay at this plane, right?
But they believe that. The Jewish people rejected God, rejected the Messiah, and so now the church is the new chosen people, or the new people with the covenant of God, so the old covenants are all erased, only Christians will be saved, are the chosen people, and that the creation of the nation state of Israel and Jewish people coming back to the land of Israel really sets off this All these bells, right?
And in Christians minds okay, so it's really happening. This is so since this happened, right? End time stuff has been on the rise. And even though every five years, right? Somebody writes a new book saying this is the end times. It never happens. It still continues to sell so many copies. It gets butts [00:32:00] in seats in church, right?
Because it's People have a lot of anxiety, right? And it's got to go somewhere so they put it into all this shit And then it becomes that evangelical Christians end up using Jewish people. Now one thing I wanted to talk to you really quickly about is like this evangelical impulse to appropriate Jewish culture.
But then also we see right now with all these debates about antisemitism happening, like on college campuses and stuff, all these right wing Christians, Republican Christians are like, Yes, we are so worried about antisemitism. We are so worried about this happening. And again, I see this like strange bedfellows thing happening.
And I just want to scream You're the most anti semitic people I know. You believe that Jews deserve to all die because they rejected God at your core. So that's where I'm thinking about it.[00:33:00]
Joshua: No I've been thinking about that for three months now. For way longer, especially the last several months, it's when it comes to Jews in the United States, the bedfellow situation gets a lot clearer to me we aren't going to win out in the way that like Netanyahu, you know, Israel, Israelis, the right wing government, whatever, they might win out through all this. There might be a sort of at least some people are obviously hoping for a solidification and a concentration of like Zionist power in the United States. the sort of silencing of anti Zionist voices and other voices, but we Jews in the U. S., some of whom are allying now, even stranger bedfellows find yourself, some Jewish leader or somebody, politician, with far right
And
DL: yeah,
Joshua: forces who, yeah, don't even view us as like pawns in their strange
DL: yeah.
Joshua: We're not going to like Jews here in the U. S. We do [00:34:00] not win anything from that. We just lose, I
DL: Think so too.
Joshua: yeah, there's, there's been so much conflation of Zionism and Judaism and that, and I think a lot of Jews in the U. S. have bought into that and yet this moment should be some clear evidence that they are not connected, or not there's obviously are connections, but they're definitely not synonymous at all.
And yeah, when you see somebody who we know. doesn't care about Jews suddenly to act like anti Semitism is their number one priority. That should be
DL: Yeah.
Joshua: Heavy grain of salt.
DL: Yeah I think it's really sad and I think that, I just never want to say that anti semitism isn't An issue in the world, because it is, and I think the number one perpetrators of it are evangelical Christians. I just don't think we can get away from this. And long term, these are [00:35:00] not the bedfellows you want.
Joshua: Exactly.
DL: In your quest for safety.
Joshua: exactly. No, it's empowering people who don't care about Jewish safety at all. He's talked about too much, but maybe the clearest example is one day Elon Musk is saying, agreeing with anti Semitic tropes blatantly in front of the whole world, millions and millions of people on Twitter, whatever. And two days later, he's in Israel somehow magically atoning for it. And then coming back and just doing the same, it just, it's a joke. Basically, I think to most people, they, we just can see through it. But there's a lot of, powerful people in Congress and these. People who have dubbed themselves, anti Semitism, Crusaders, Harvard, whatever, all this nonsense.
DL: Yeah.
Joshua: yeah, who are keeping up the, keeping the facade going strong. Yeah.
DL: Yeah. And so I think there's a lot of bad faith actors, especially politicians. And then there's some true believers. And I think both are dangerous from the evangelical Christian side, right? And the right wing Republican side. [00:36:00] And I think both of them need to be addressed for where their end game is going, and I think. When we just let them live in their mythologies and
Joshua: Yes.
DL: get away with saying they're they care about anti Semitism, it just, that's what prompted me to finally just go ahead and make this series, even though I It's just a really triggering and awful conversation to be having, if I'm being perfectly honest.
Now, I want to be respectful of time. I do want to really quick ask you if you feel like things are changing when it comes to Jewish people being. Zionists or anti Zionists, or at least having some movements away because, from 2016 on, there's been a mass exodus of people leaving Christianity in the United States.
And so people continue to leave evangelicalism, especially younger people. And I think as they've left that religion, Zionism is one of the [00:37:00] things People are starting to be like, this means nothing outside of Christianity. I'm not even a Christian anymore. It's doubly ridiculous to me now. So I think we are at a time where especially younger people are just not, they're able to see through the propaganda.
They're able to see how little nothing good is going to come from what is happening.
To Gaza, right? It's going to facilitate cycles of war, aggression, all of this stuff. So I'm just curious about your perspective on that.
Joshua: No, I think you're totally right. I think for young Jews much more so than older generations there's been a move away from Zionism not everybody, of course, but statistically just much more than other generations. And I think part of that had been coming.
There had been groundwork laid by Palestinian activists by Jewish anti Zionist by the people, for decades now, really and I do think, it's about a lot, but I think the social media [00:38:00] era does make a big difference. If you and I were still just getting our information from the three you. channels on TV or whatever, this would be a very different, set of circumstances. There's, I don't think you, obviously people find arguments, but I basically think it's impossible to argue with seeing parents mourning children who have been slaughtered and stuff, it just is so visceral and and the type of stuff that used to not get through to Americans, I think it's my understanding. And And even though Palestinians have been leading this, obviously on the ground leading resistance and stuff in the U. S. I'm grateful for anti Zionist Jews right now because I think our role is to take away that shield of anti Semitism that
Is
Using it to a point that's to me, feels obscene and feels like it hurts Jews in the long run. Anyway that's almost another whole [00:39:00] conversation, but. The thing that came out most recently is South Africa accusing Israel,
DL: Yes.
Joshua: National
DL: I
Joshua: of Justice of genocide and Israeli government immediately resorting to shield of anti Semitism, which is just hurts my soul. And it's so repugnant. So I think as anti Zionist Jews, we are uniquely positioned specifically to take that away. No, this is not, this is the colonial political ideology project. It is not us. It is not our whole people and religion and culture, ethnicity and all this stuff.
No, there's so much there.
DL: think, it's clear that Anti Zionist Jews are not a fringe group, right? It's a growing movement. And I think the way people like yourself have shown up in these times, to me, it speaks to a level of moral clarity that has been there for a long time. And that's what I think about going into the future.
Like [00:40:00] who right away was able to say, these are propaganda tactics, who right away was able to look at what stories were not being told. And I just think. Anti Zionist Jews have been so helpful for me personally to get my bearings in this time where my own history, my own experiences, I think Christians probably have a lot of guilt about anti Semitism in our religion, and so we are terrified to be called anti Semitic, and that definitely happened to me quite a bit when I first started Posting about Palestine after October 7th, and I think it's just helpful to recognize this is something worth thinking through, worth pushing through, and worth exploring a diversity of voices when we, and because we do need to think about anti Semitism, I'm saying, I'm not saying we don't, but that is a very fraught thing happening for a lot of people right now, and I think keeps people silent, if I'm being perfectly honest, which is the point, I think.
Joshua: I think that's exactly the point. I think you're exactly right. And I think what's really [00:41:00] tragic, again, for Jews in the United States in particular, who buy into, who are still buying into, just Zionism, but the specific manipulation of anti Semitism that Israeli government and other parts of Israeli, Hasra Zionist propaganda is doing, is that it hurts us.
I think, I just think it
DL: Yeah.
Joshua: everywhere, really, but specifically outside of Israel. It's, it becomes this boy who cried wolf thing to me in some ways, where it's anti Semitism, they're watering it down and rendering it to some people. Obviously, there are thoughtful people who will still reckon with it and Jews and otherwise. But a lot of people, it, you hear this word in this manipulative context again and again, and it becomes harder to, at the simplest level, harder to see the truth about it.
DL: Yeah.
Joshua: I think one of the reasons that Jews in the United States and a lot of people who are anybody who's talking about this reckoning with it should be clear about the delineation is that, yeah, anti Semitism is real and it's coming [00:42:00] often from far right actors and sometimes, evangelical actors in the U.
S. And then in Europe, we're, seeing it from the right most often, not from people, not from people who say, Stop bombing Gaza. Palestine should be free. These things are not, is not where the majority of it is coming from.
DL: Yeah.
Joshua: not the most powerful actors, the most powerful actors are antisemitic are certainly these conservative figures in the U S and and Europe and elsewhere.
Yeah.
DL: Yeah. And I think, the good news is I do think one of the main tenets of a propaganda war has already been lost, especially on the young, right? Which is young people know if you set up a situation where you are not allowed to criticize a government that has weapons, a government that is bombing civilians.
If you set up a situation where you can't call or critique, that government, yeah. People are out. People see that as Propaganda 101, and they're out. And I'm encouraged by that. I don't I think boomers? No. [00:43:00] They totally believe all of it, it seems to me. That's painting a white brush. I'll say white evangelical boomers.
Okay, but the young people, they're just like, Wait, you're saying we can't criticize the government? We love criticizing government! It's you can't tell us to stop doing that!
Joshua: Yeah, no, I think you're right. I was astounded because even two or three years ago, of course, the intensity of the Israeli campaigns, even two years ago in the West Bank and Gaza weren't, it just wasn't as intense. It wasn't as much. killing of civilians, and there wasn't this open talk about ethnic cleansing.
But even two years ago, the numbers were just so different. Like the polling has just done this 180. That's, a testament mostly to the people on the ground, like reporters, journalists in Gaza and the West Bank, and, Palestinians who have Persisted, gone through times, years and years where like, where they were, shouted down, pushed out or silenced.
And now, yeah, public perception, I think the propaganda war has by and large just been lost by, by Israel,
DL: Yeah.
Joshua: [00:44:00] Zionists, which is a start. It's a great, it's a start, and it's just. The United States is government is also just,
DL: Yes.
Joshua: governments around the world are raised against us and against
DL: Yes.
Joshua: almost a completely isolated position where it's just the U. S. and Israel still defending these. actions. Anyway, we could
DL: Okay, we could go on and on about this, but just to like end on this book, and I'll be talking about this book with a few other people, but the cover, shows a white woman holding a camera in front of a mosque with the Nazi symbol in the background. And it's just like this. Swastika.
Joshua: I didn't even know that. That's
DL: Because it's really important for white Christian women to be like, we are so not Nazis. And actually, the Nazis partnered with Muslims in this book, that's what's happening, to try and eradicate [00:45:00] all the Jewish people and we've always supported Israel. We always will. That's what God wants us to do.
We are the heroes. There's no, nothing to say, except we are the heroes. Like that's the, that's it. And I think we're seeing this play out politically even now, but again, it's. This propaganda is not working anymore, which I'm so grateful to hear about. But for those listening, you've maybe absorbed some of this theology.
Maybe your grandma read these books. Maybe your mom read these books. Maybe your pastor thought these were great works of history. And I just want to say this is a theology and a belief worth interrogating and worth rejecting wholeheartedly after looking at where it leads politically today.
And also where it leads in the minds of these people. So really quick, I want to let you go, Josh, do you want to give me a guess on where Brock and Bodie Theone are today? What some of their political beliefs [00:46:00] are right now? If they have anything to say about world events right now, you want to give a guess?
Joshua: I remember seeing that they were living between their multiple homes in Hawaii and London.
DL: California,
Joshua: and
DL: they Yeah, so that's one thing they got rich off of these books. Okay,
Joshua: Yeah.
DL: they got really rich They are extremely politically conservative and the most recent series they wrote Was with this evangelical pastor named Ray Bentley and they wrote a series of like prophetic books Talking to, set in like the very near future and the last of the books has a Christian holding a chauffeur horn.
I'm not sure how to say that. And the 5th book. It starts with California experiencing a natural disaster, right? Because God is punishing California and the few true [00:47:00] believers left are trying to get to these places of refuge. One is in Israel and California in the last book. And so that's where they're at right now at this point, the end is really here and the true believers need to congregate in places like.
Idaho and Israel and create their compounds because the end of the world is at hand and actually I just looked at their Facebook page yesterday and the post from yesterday is Bodie says a quote from one of her books. It says it's simple them folks up in Washington is a go into heaven or they ain't.
And then her comment on this quote is Yep. So true. We're going to see it. The door of the arc is about to close. Only a few people, right? Get into the arc. Everybody else is killed, like everybody else dies. And a part of me is just did it? Did it say in that story that God said? [00:48:00] He was never going to do that again.
Wasn't like that the main takeaway of the story of Noah? It's wild, you don't want to get into the mind of Bodie too much. And then the comments, right? Are people like, it's so exciting and also scary, but mostly exciting. And it's just, this is the mindset of people who are deep in the evangelical end times theology, which I wish it was fringe, but honestly, these beliefs. Like I said, 30 million Christian Zionists in the United States that's something worth considering.
Joshua: I took a class once on apocalypse, basically. And we, yeah, it was, a lot of it was like climate change and, pandemics and stuff like that. But the first couple of classes were more like the main framework was centuries of various. Protestant, groups in the United States. and just how not fringe it is. I
DL: Yes.
Joshua: a lot of people who aren't [00:49:00] currently, I think it's in the air in the U. S. basically. It's just decades of fear about nuclear holocaust coming at any
DL: Yes.
Joshua: Just in the water, in the air. And I think a lot of people. What I would really like to go into some other time, it's just why people like what's the exciting part, because I don't see that part. Why the hope that moment is coming at any time, that, that worries
DL: You want to get, you want me to, you want me to give you my thoughts on that?
Joshua: one,
DL: Because I've thought a lot about this since my life as a child was. Really traumatically impacted by a parent who was obsessed with these that I think pairs with some mental illness and depression and Sort of all these things but I think at its core why?
Christian Zionists right now in particular are very giddy or very excited about the end of the world is one I think there are people who have so much fear and so much distrust of the world and Their God has disappointed them over and over again, but they can't say that. [00:50:00] It's the sunk cost fallacy.
And so for to when things like what's happening right now in Gaza are happening again, what I said earlier, they take it as. assurance that they are correct. So the end really is happening. So instead of being scared of the end, they are like, finally, we're being proven right. And not only do I get to stop living in this messed up world, I will finally be proven right as the chosen.
People. And that, my friend, is a toxic stew.
Does that make sense? That's to me, that's my perspective on the psychology of why the excitement is. They're being proven right and they get to stop being a part of this messed up human race that actually takes a lot of work to exist in and work towards, a good world for everybody.
Joshua: Yeah, no, I'm one of the things I'm hearing is if we had a. A better world. If we did things to create and build a better world, this would be a lot less appealing.
DL: I think so. But that [00:51:00] is why people like you give me hope, I, I said it in my chat with Crispin, sometimes I think the best F. U. I can have to apocalyptic evangelical thinking is to commit to live life and to live a long life and to envision a life where as many people as possible have access to basic human rights.
And are treated with human dignity. So that's going forward. I want to do, and I see you doing that in your work. Again, that comes back into the labor solidarity. There's so many, the labor movement, I think is one of the things that gives me the most hope about our future. Yes, we have rising authoritarianism.
Yes, we have Zionism. Ruining the so many people's lives, but there are these movements of solidarity with so many people. So thanks, Josh, just so much for your work. Hopefully I can chat with you more in the future, but I'd love for you to just tell people where they can find you, where they can find your work and how they can support you.
Joshua: Thanks. Thank you, Dale. Yeah. Lots to talk about. I write[00:52:00] at the moment on SubSec. is called New Means. Or just, you could search Joshua P. Hill and I'm sure you'll find me. And yeah that's where I try to Pour in this stuff, this solidarity, this building a better world that you're talking about.
DL: Yeah. Yeah. So much for coming on here and chatting with me and taking some time to think about. A pretty terribly written book,
Joshua: No,
DL: but it was nice to make fun of it with you.
Joshua: Yes. Yes. That was good. I far out of my world and I learned a lot in an unexpected way. So thank you.
DL: Yeah. Thanks so much.
Joshua: Thanks for having me.
