Can You Catch the Wind?
DL & Krispin finish the season discussing tracks "What Have We Become?" "Mind's Eye" and bonus track, "Alas My Love."
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TRANSCRIPT
Krispin: Y'all. We made it to the end of the Jesus Freak season.
Danielle: Well,
Krispin: I guess we haven't made it yet. We have another hour ahead of us
Danielle: And we're compressing some things, right? Yes. Yeah,
Krispin: Yeah. We're gonna tackle the last two songs and the bonus track.
Danielle: Oh yeah. I'm so excited for today. So excited.
Krispin: So, I mean, basically, just to, you know, set this up so we're all on the same page, there is tons of anti-trans legislation going on throughout the US [00:01:00] led by Christians.
Danielle: Oh, that's, that's where you're going. Okay.
Krispin: I just feel like the listeners deserve to know a little context.
Danielle: Okay.
Krispin: Um, also, you know, there's been uh, um, a series of shootings, um, between individuals, people claiming stand your ground. I feel like we just should let people know that this is like the world that we are in right now as we are about to talk about these tracks.
Um, cuz you know, there's a lot. Of, uh, a lot of emotions around that.
Danielle: So you are feeling a lot of emotions, that's what you're saying?
Krispin: Yes.
Danielle: Good. Okay. I think that's helpful to get into this, but yeah, I mean, when we started the Jesus Freak season, we knew it was gonna be intense. Remember we were making all those memes about religious trauma and Jesus Freak
Krispin: Uh huh
Danielle: I've been having fun making some TikToks about it.
Um, and we've sort of petered out,
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: is what I would say. Is there a technical term for that?
Krispin: [00:02:00] Um, petered out because we've just been processing our own religious trauma along the way. Is that what you mean?
Danielle: Yeah. Like, how long can you do this in a row? And so I, I think it's great to couch this in the reality that like, we are tired, we're angry, we're dealing with so much stuff in our lives, but then also in the headlines
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And, you know, not to get too quickly into Conspiracy Corner with DL, but, right? There's real threats to the Jesus Freak album, which came out in 1995 and like the anti-trans legislation.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: You know, that is basically criminalizing any gender expression outside of Christian, you know, heteronormativity in really, really upsetting ways.
So, you know,
Krispin: Right. Yes, definitely. And, um, yeah, and so I, I think that is like just some of the backdrop to [00:03:00] this. Um, so yeah, I just wanted to prepare people because we are in a, we're in a head space. We're not coming in like, oh, let's be curious about this.
Like,
Danielle: No.
Krispin: Or at least I'm
Danielle: No. Okay, so this is, I do need to say something.
I don't know exactly what you're gonna say, but I'm like, I have a, I have a sense. That this is Krispin when he's been pushed too far. I don't know if people are into the enneagram, Krispin’s enneagram nine. He's very chill mostly.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Um, and then when Krispin gets pushed too far, he snaps. And, um, I love it.
I love him when Krispin snaps. I'm here for it. Um,
Krispin: Um,
Danielle: so I, I have a sense that today we're gonna see, um, Intense Krispin, which I always love. So
Krispin: We'll, we'll see. I think you're, yeah.
Danielle: We’ll see how it goes. Okay.
Krispin: Part of it was, um, you know, we just, these last couple songs are pretty skippable. Like this album is full of songs that you're like, oh yes, that takes me right [00:04:00] back.
And then there are these songs that it's like, yeah, I kind of remember that. So
Danielle: You wanna give the titles really quick?
Krispin: Yes. We're gonna talk about “What Have We Become,”
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: “In Mind's Eye,”
Danielle: “In My Mind's Eye,” right?
Krispin: Yes.
Danielle: You said it weird.
Krispin: Uh, “Mind's Eye” is what it is.
Danielle: Okay.
Krispin: And, um, “Alas My Love.”
Danielle: Can we just go out of order and talk about that one really quick? Because this is the one,
Krispin: I feel like it is the perfect ending to bring it back around to other, uh, Christian artists we've talked about on this podcast before. Okay. Just as a little, little teaser. Okay. So, yeah, I think we should start with “What Have We Become,”
[Clip from “What Have We Become”]
Danielle: Okay.
Krispin: [00:05:00] Here's my question.
Danielle: I know what we've become.
Krispin: Yes.
Danielle: Yes.
Krispin: Like, okay, so first of all, who… is this song prophetic? Is it totally self deceived? Like just to give it, uh, listeners a kind of a gist is like, it's saying that things are not okay in families in, I think in Christianity
Danielle: In America, I believe.
Krispin: I'm not sure. That's the question. Like is it to America or is it to the church? Yeah, it's pretty unclear, but there is this element of like, what have we become like in a world that is degenerating? So that to me means it's targeted towards Christians.
Danielle: Like, where are the righteous ones? Where is the remnant? Like this is the shit I grew up with.
Okay.
Krispin: Yes. You were more triggered by this song. I was more triggered by the next one, but we'll get there. Yeah, I mean it's, I, I, I wasn't sure. I do feel, my opinion is that this is one of [00:06:00]those like, calling out the church songs.
Danielle: Okay. Yes. But it is hilarious. If you think about, again, the actual audience, right?
So there's two layers here. This is like, this is just like boomer shit right here, right? What have we become? The world is, you know, degenerate and I mean, what's interesting is like the first line is really arresting, right? Because it's about, well, should we just read it? It says, “a preacher shuns his brother, cuz his bride's a different color. And this is not acceptable, his papa taught him so, it was love that he'd been preaching, but this was overreaching. The boundaries, stretching further than his heart would choose to go.” [Clip from “What Have We Become”] So you're like, and then it's like, you know, what have we become a self-indulgent people, da, da, da. It's like, oh my God, racism's bad. Like, what have we become [00:07:00] like,
Krispin: right in 95?
Danielle: 95
Krispin: like
Danielle: What have we become
Krispin: a, more than a decade after interracial marriage has been legalized.
Danielle: Yeah. Okay. So anyways, uh,
Krispin: I, that was what stood out to me, like, I don't know if I'm saying this the right way, but like, just the fact that it's 95 and they're like, this is cutting edge in the church is like such a, is just really depressing
Danielle: So I think for me, listening to this as like a 12, 13 year old. You know, in Wyoming or Northern California, like that first set, that first verse really sets up like, oh my God, yeah, racism's bad. I can't believe a preacher like wouldn't talk to his brother cuz he married someone outside the race or whatever, you know?
Krispin: Do you think bio brother?
Danielle: I don't-
Krispin: I always read it as like a, a fellow brother in Christ. But now that you said that, I was
Danielle: But then the chorus is so confusing.
It's like, what have we become a self-indulgent people? What have we become? Tell me [00:08:00]where are the righteous ones? What have we become in a world degenerating? What have we become? And so that makes it seem like it's about Christians, like racist Christians, but it literally never talks about that, the rest of the song.
Right?
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
Danielle: Then it kind of says like, “What the world tells us to do is just speak your mind, look out for yourself. The answer to it all is a life of wealth.” Um, you know, all this stuff. And then this one always got me in my feels when I was a kid. The second verse, do you remember?
Krispin: Uh, no, but I know what it is. It's it, I mean, yeah. It, it's a little intense.
Danielle: Okay. You want to read it?
Krispin: Yes. “Mom and dad are fighting as Rosie lies there crying for once again. She's overheard regrets of their mistake. When Christmas bells are ringing, little Rosie leave them grieving. The gift she'd give her family would be the pills she'd take. An inconvenient child. She wasn't worth their while.” [00:09:00] Okay,
[Clip from “What Have We Become”]
Danielle: So it's basically about a young girl
Krispin: Who feels like a mistake. Yeah.
Danielle: And it's Christmas time.
Krispin: Christmas and
Danielle: And she overdoses on pills. Ah-huh. So that's intense. It is. And like wildly different than what the first verse was about. Right? And so then you're like, whoa, okay. Like, the parents are so self-absorbed and awful and they did this to their child and you know.
Mm-hmm. Um, what have we become, self-indulgent people? What have we become? You know, and then there's the Toby Mac. Um, what about love? What about God?
Krispin: You gotta get the echoes in there too. It's like what about love?
Danielle: What about love? What about love?
Krispin: What about God?
Danielle: What about God? [00:10:00] And that's it. Those are the two verses.
Yes. And they're just like, have nothing to do with each other. And then the chorus is mostly just like, what have we become? Where are the righteous ones? What about God? What about holiness? It's just such a mess. Yes.
Krispin: Yes, right?
Danielle: It’s a mess of a song and it just cracks me up in a way to think about like DC talk, sitting down and being like, what are two of like the most baddest things we could write about in this that have nothing to do with each other?
And also, um, how can we get a bunch of 13 year olds to sing a song that makes them sound like boomers, right? Where we're just like, what have we become? I'm like, 13. I'm like, guys, what have we become? You know what I mean?
Krispin: Think about, okay, so going to the first verse with this racism, right? Mm-hmm. Oh, we're racist now what have we become?
What about the good old days? Like that logically does not make any sense. What really stood [00:11:00] out to me from that verse was, um, they’re putting this emphasis on like, he's choosing to be racist. He's choosing to be prejudiced.
Danielle: And he's a pastor. I think that's kind of the point, right? Which again, is interesting.
Krispin: It is interesting.
I think that what, um, I think it really skips over, I just think this is worth mentioning. It really skips over, uh, the role of, um, biblical, uh, uh, not literacy of, um, taking the bi- like biblical literalism. And like really skips over because the pastor, like that wouldn't say like, oh, that's what I've just been taught.
They would say, this is what God has taught through the Bible. And so I think, I don't know, I just, I mean, I, I mentioned that, um, all the anti-trans legislation and this just like, you know, reminds me a lot of that. Like they're saying, like, what, you know, there's this boundary that you're choosing to not overcome, but the person on the other [00:12:00] side of this, this pastor would say no, the Bible clearly says. And so, I don't know, I just was really struck by, I was thinking about this last week because I really want to be engaged. I was, you know, sort of engaging with some folks online. Um, and I want to be really respectful of people's faith and that the Bible is really important to them.
And like that is, I think when we look at like historic oppression, that is where so much of it has come from is people saying like, yes, I, I, I want to do the right thing, but the Bible says. And um, so I don't know, it just like, just really depressed me to think like about the way that the Bible has been used.
And I think, um, yeah, just thinking about, uh, well okay, so I wanna transition to this chorus, right? The “speak your mind, look out for yourself. The answer of it all is a life of wealth.” [00:13:00] [Clip from “What Have We Become”] I'm like this.
Danielle: That's what the world says.
Krispin: That's what the world says, but this is. I don't, I, I, uh, I want to. Be generous, but I'm not feeling very generous. This is like what I hear from conservative Christians, right. Speak your mind like you have to take care of yourself. You have the right to do whatever you want, as long as it's not changing
Danielle: Dave Ramsey.
Krispin: Yeah, right. Remember Brad Stein? I was just thinking about Brad Stein. Maybe listeners know, he's this Christian comedian
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: and his whole thing is just like, you know, like I was looking at some YouTubes and it was like, when did it not be okay to say fat anymore. Like, why can't I say, you know, like, and
Danielle: Is he the “Laugh Your Way To A Better Marriage” guy?
Krispin: No, but similar thing right there. And, and comedians maybe are the most extreme examples, but like [00:14:00] these, like the, just hearing this,
Danielle: This is because we have a great story about laughing your way to a better marriage, we probably, no, we probably shouldn't.
Krispin: Yes, we should. Danielle, we're gonna make,
Danielle: We're gonna
Krispin: make it the season finale.
Danielle: Then you have to tell it.
Krispin: Okay, how explicit are we gonna get? So Danielle's parents, Danielle's parents, uh, we were house sitting for them.
Danielle: And I dunno if anybody else has this experience, but if your parents are evangelical, they probably pressure you to watch like Christian movies, listen to Christian music.
Like that's one of the main ways they like, check in on your relationship. Like have you seen the new, you know, “Fireproof,” like with Kirk Cameron? Like, you wanna watch it, you wanna watch it with us? Do you wanna watch it? My parents get pressuring us to watch this video called “Laugh Your Way to a Better Marriage,” which is just complementarian white male bullshit. [00:15:00] Christian comedian, laughing about the differences between men and women, and I don't know why we felt so pressured and we were house sitting for them, so we're like, fine.
Krispin: I think we, I think we were just like, we were in such a weird place. I don't think we'd been able to, we had just gotten married. I was 21. You were 23?
Yeah. And I think we hadn't like formed in our mind like a boundary of like, oh, if like, what maybe helps them is not going to be helpful to us. Like I think we were more open-minded back then.
Danielle: because like even books like “Love and Respect,” I was like, okay, none of this makes sense to me. Mm-hmm.
Um, and also like the gender binary obviously never, ever, ever made sense to me. So most of this was just like, what?
Krispin: right. So this “Laugh Your Way To A Better Marriage” guy, I can't remember his name. Uh, basically it like, it's just like, imagine an hour long standup about the differences between men and women, but like with the authority of the Bible.
Danielle: It’s a full seminar. [00:16:00] Okay, here's what it says. It says, you'll experience all the facts inside splitting fun of Mark's look at life, love, and marriage. His name's Mark. Oh, Mark Gungor. Which is interesting. I
Krispin: right.
Danielle: right? Gungor. Not that Gungor guys
Krispin: Yeah. And so we started watching it, but we got bored. So we started making out and
Danielle: and one thing led to another.
Krispin: as y'all know,
Danielle: we were laughing, but like
Krispin: we, we were just having sex on your parents' living room floor while
Danielle: while Mark Gungor told us how to be good men and women, I guess
Krispin: in the background.
Yeah. And that's our,
Danielle: And that’s our story. It was great. I love it. And then we just turned it off. We're like, this is bullshit.
Krispin: Yeah. And
Danielle: And then my parents asked us if we watched it, we're like, yeah. Yeah.
Krispin: And then they like every, they brought it up for a while and every time they brought it up, we were just
Danielle: we'd be like, yeah, we watched it. Uh, anywho.
Krispin: Yeah.
Danielle: Oh, get back on track. [00:17:00] Krispin.
Krispin: Okay. Um, yeah, I just, I mean this, like, I'm wondering like, are they just self deceived or are they like, or are they prophetic? You know, because everything they say in this course too is like, speaks directly to like political, conservative politics, you know, don't worry about others or where they came from, you know?
Danielle: Yeah.
Krispin: So, but I, I think that it just is also like, speaks to the, um, discord between who Christians think they are. When I say Christians, I mean like DC talk being sort of like, you know, the height of like Christian publishing and music at this time and like what their values actually are, which we've talked at length about.
Danielle: Yeah. I'm like I could, like, I feel myself, I could go into two, in two directions, right? I could get really into pulling apart this song. Mm-hmm. And what it means, but then there's like this other part in my brain that's just like, this is all gibberish. They didn't really have anything they were actually saying.
And you know, this is [00:18:00] like a precursor to Fox News. It's just like, let's just throw a bunch ofsemi-inflammatory shit at the wall and see what sticks. Knowing that people who are Christians love to sing loudly and lustily about what have we become, self-indulgent. Not me, I mean everybody else, not me.
Krispin: Uhhuh. Exactly.
Danielle: But what have you all become?
You know? So that's why I'm like, it's actually not really worth unpacking cuz I'm like, it's such a mishmash. There is no real central theme. It's just, wow, everybody else is doing it wrong.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. I mean, I gotta say, like I was listening to this song. I know that I'm taking, uh, artistic authorial intent totally outta this, but listening to this song
Danielle: Shame on you.
Krispin: thinking about all this anti-trans legislation
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: And listening to this verse about a kid that feels like they're a mistake.
Danielle: Exactly. It's really hard not to-
Krispin: Yeah, I mean, I know that they were not thinking about, they were [00:19:00] not at all thinking about the high suicide rates among religious youth who are queer.
Danielle: I mean, that's what I thought about and it's really hard. To just sit with that reality that so many kids are growing up in Christian homes right now where trans youth have been made the enemy, right? Mm-hmm. And this is happening at the same time that social media and movies like are finally starting to slowly catch onto the reality that gender binaries, right, just are not important and nor do they reflect the actual variety of human existence. And so for me, I feel like we are at this horrific crossroads where kids are somewhat getting access to this information and yet they're in homes, in churches, in Christian schools where they're [00:20:00] just hearing the most vile things.
Right. And yeah, the, the rates of suicide for kids who grow up in, you know, Christian religious households, who are gender queer, who are, you know, all these, like, it's so high.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: It's so depressing. Yeah. I don't know what to do.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. And I, I think, um, it's just like, you know, that Toby Mac part, right? What about love? And then it says, what about holiness?
And I'm just really struck by like how it, just, that term holiness, right? Qualifies love. And I don't know, I've just been thinking about like, Okay, this is going way left field, but just thinking about, cuz we were watching Drunk History recently and I was thinking about just this pattern throughout US history of like religion being used to oppress people and, and just like, just present for hundreds of years.
And so it's not new. [00:21:00] It's also depressing.
Danielle: Well, you know, I think like if we wanted. Slowly transition to the next song. I think a better, the way I've been conceptualizing this album, and I know we've talked about this before, but this album in so many respects, was DC talk trying to package the Billy Graham revivals, like into an audio format,
Krispin: with some loud guitars and drums,
Danielle: that would reach teenagers.
You know what I mean? And so, I think this song is very much like a preacher style. Like you tell two weird anecdotes that don't actually match up. Right. You say a bunch of things like what have we become, you know, like there's no actual, like so, yeah. So to me I'm like, yeah, this seems very Billy Graham-y Crusade revival, like whipping up some emotions, you know, like
Krispin: Hmm.
Danielle: gotta do something about this culture, [00:22:00] you know?
Right. So that's what I hear. And then obviously the next song is basically the Billy Graham song, isn't it? It is, yeah.
Krispin: Literally, because there's a Billy Graham quote in it, an
Danielle: audio clip, right?
Krispin: Yes. Uhhuh. It's called “Mind's Eye.” And I, I want to hear how you would summarize this song.
Danielle: This song? Yes.
Krispin: Um,
Danielle: It’s an excellent look at thought reform on and how to brainwash people
How to, how to get people to brainwash themselves.
Krispin: Mm.
Danielle: That's what thought reform is. Mm-hmm. You get them to listen to a voice inside of them. Maybe it's Chairman Mao, maybe it's Billy Graham's version of Jesus, but you get them to create a relationship with this disembodied voice that they live their life in relation to instead of listening to themselves.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And again, for people who grew up evangelical, you're like, yeah, that's how everybody grows up. No, it's not.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: If you grew up [00:23:00] with Billy Graham being someone revered in your household, like, spoiler alert, you've been exposed to a lot of thought reform tactics. Um, I, I would say he's one of the most successful people to employ these, and I think this song, “Mind's Eye” is just such a good look at that.
[Clip from “Mind’s Eye”]
Can we just talk about
Krispin: Yeah, yeah,
Danielle: The, the lyrics? Yes. So the intro says, “in my mind, I can see your face as your love pours down in a shower of grace.” By the way, that also seems kind of weird because you know, all these Christian things, they're like, is this romantic? Is the sexual? Like, love pour [00:24:00] down like a shower of grace.
The- my mind goes somewhere else.
Krispin: The way you just whispered that, did you mean for that to be like edited out? I don't,
Danielle: I was like, am I the only one who's thinking of a golden shower?
Krispin: You were just saying the other day that you, all the double entendres go over your head all the time.
Danielle: I know, but then sometimes they don't. Um, “some people tell me, you're just a dream. My faith is the evidence of things unseen. In my mind's eye, in my mind's eye, in my mind's eye, in my mind.” So that kind of sets us up for saying like this, this relationship that evangelical Christians are sort of raised from birth to develop a relationship with God that's in your mind. And you know, I grew up being very explicitly taught to imagine Jesus, imagine God, imagine yourself in these scenarios like, cultivate that relationship. Right. Did that happen for you?
Krispin: Yeah. I remember like making this shift when I was like 14 to like, up until that point, like I think that was present in some ways.
Like we prayed to Jesus, we [00:25:00] imagined whatever, but it was like up until that point it was like reading the Bible, et cetera. But then it was the shift, especially when you had like Hillsong and Vineyard worship come in. Like I think that was a big part of it, of like, you are having this, you know,intimate experience with Jesus that's happening in your mind. I actually was really bad at imagining it.
Danielle: Yeah, me too. My goodness.
So bad. But like, there's so much pressure to do it, and that's why I'm like, yeah, I, I tend to like pinpoint Charismatics as the ones leading this, but it is interesting to see this, right? This is Liberty University. This is Billy Graham, and it's like, oh yeah, they did this all the time too, right? Mm-hmm.
And, and so I think it's interesting, like some of the verses are like, I think they're talking to Jesus, right? Yeah. It says, “you know what I'm going through. I know this is true cuz you stood in my shoes. Desire is inside of me, but it's hard to believe in what you cannot see.” So that's the other interesting thing about this sort of doctrine.
There's always this admission that it's hard. [00:26:00] It's really hard to believe in something you can't see, to talk to somebody you can't see. But we know Jesus was a human. We know Jesus experienced what it was like to be human. So I'm just gonna trust that Jesus understands what I'm going through and I will cast every care and I'll take everything.
You know, like,
Krispin: Oh my gosh. Okay. So thinking about Jesus, uh, as like, I remember hearing stories about Jesus staying up all night to pray.
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: Just being, and he was so one with the Father. Mm-hmm. And just being like, I could never, like, I could never do that.
Danielle: Oh, I could,
Krispin: Yes.
Danielle: I would've been miserable.
Krispin: That's true.
Danielle: But I would've done it.
Krispin: Our silent retreat experiences are evidence of that, where I just like slept and ate food.
And you were like, I gotta,
Danielle: I was hungry. I was fasted, I was miserable. I'm so glad I don't have to do that anymore. Oh my gosh. So, so the song already is like, it's hard. It's hard to believe in what you cannot see.
And so then there's all these like, [00:27:00] little snippets of like, can you catch the wind? Can you see the breeze? No, but you can see the leaves, you know, on the tree. Which I heard that so much growing up. Did you?
Krispin: Oh my gosh yes. And
Danielle: That's the Holy Spirit. But I guess it's also Jesus and it's also God,
Krispin: This tree reminded me so much of, um, I feel like late nineties, early two thousands, I was in a, in a family full of people in ministry.
And there was this huge emphasis, maybe there's always been a huge emphasis on metaphors in sermons. And I remember as a teenager being like, you guys think because you have a metaphor for it, it proves that it's true. Which is sort of the gist of this, right? Is like Billy Graham is saying, you know, in that quote, like you can't see the wind, but it moves the trees.
Therefore, Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and you have to believe him or else you'll go to hell forever. Right?
Danielle: I love your Billy Graham voice. It's so intense. I'm like, I'm triggered.
Krispin: I am, [00:28:00] I am triggered. But that's,
Danielle: You got intense white male energy all of a sudden. I love it. Keep going.
Krispin: I, I, there is a small flame of, I, I'll be honest of hatred that is like growing in my heart towards Billy Graham.
Danielle: I was gonna say, let's, let's unpack this for a minute. Tell me about Billy Graham.
Krispin: I, I think that. Um, it's, I was thinking about this. I think there's so much, I think, I think in a lot of ways Billy Graham is really touted as a really simple man of faith when actually, like, whether it's like his, uh, um, interactions with presidents, like whether it's trying to, whether-
Danielle: I'm sorry, I just took a picture of you because I love when Krispin loses his shit. Okay. Anyway,
Krispin: Uh, whether it's, I mean, really like this, the Billy Graham crusades right? And use that word
Danielle: Uh huh,
Krispin: Uh, to [00:29:00] basically harness political power, like trying to harness the next generation. Um, anyway, but I,
Danielle: I'm sure he didn't mind at all the fact that he was all lauded and everybody thought he was the world's best man and they built shrines to him at Wheaton and Christianity.
I'm sure he didn't mind that.
Krispin: No. And even like this element of like, you know, there are lots of, yeah. Anyway, um, and I think what really… I was reflecting on this and what it even felt like as a kid, it felt really gaslighty. Mm-hmm. What felt really gaslighty was, I'm going to show you how, how Christianity is true. It's logical, it's rational, you know, here's a metaphor that proves that it's true. You know, I think about like, like, you know, Lee Strobel and like- And what's so gaslighty about it is like you're saying that it's faith, but you're saying like, but it would [00:30:00] be really stupid and illogical to believe
Danielle: anything different. Exactly.
Krispin: And I remember just even as a kid feeling, so like confused about that. And um, and that's really what pisses me off is, um, well,
Danielle: And I think that's like the underlying thing about this supremacist worldview of Billy Graham’s, right. It's hard. Only the real people can do it, and you have to work really hard at it and always be checking in with God.
And yeah, it's just a small select few that can do it, get that can hack it, that can, and yeah. And therefore we are the only ones deserving of, of going to heaven. And so I, I just think like it's so bad. Like Billy Graham's a bad man. Mm-hmm. His, his theology is very violent, not to mention all the horrific political shit he did and his family legacy.
Right.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. I had forgotten about Franklin for a minute.
Danielle: Yeah. Franklin Graham was like my mortal enemy for a while. [00:31:00] Um,
Krispin: Remember when you made a fake Franklin Graham Twitter account and messaged me and I was, and I had no idea who you were?
Danielle: I was trying to cyber bully Franklin Graham for a while.
Krispin: Yeah, I think
Danielle: It didn't work. He's still going strong. He's still a millionaire. Making his money off of hating Muslims is, is great. It is great guys. Everything's so great and we have nothing to be upset about at all.
Krispin: I have one, I have one last thing to say about this song is, um, and that, that like message right, is, I think it's summed up well when people will say things like, it takes more faith to be an atheist. Right? People will say that. Or it takes more faith to believe that.
Danielle: Do they?
Krispin: Yes, I've heard that before. Listeners back me up. Please let us know if you've heard that before,
Danielle: Cuz we can see the wind in the trees.
Krispin: Exactly right. And it is, it's like there, [00:32:00] like, you know, the idea of a, like, um, a God creating everything makes more sense than it just coming out of nowhere.
Right. But the message there is like, okay, so you're saying faith is a good thing. And I think even this line, it's from, I looked it up, um, it's this verse, right? Uh, that says, um, faith, this is Hebrews 11:1. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things not seen,” which is from the King James,
Danielle: Did you see me mouthing that along with you?
Krispin: I did. Yes.
Danielle: I've heard that so many times. Right.
Krispin: And the, that idea of the evidence of things seen, you know, in this 20th century, like everything makes sense. It's scientific. I mean, what it says is like basically, I mean in the song he says, my faith is the evidence that it's true. Which means
Danielle: Yeah. I love how we were just on totally different [00:33:00] tracks.
Krispin: Cause it means that if you believe it, it is true. Like, which is like the most like.
Danielle: illogical,
Krispin: illogical thing. So then I wanna be like, okay, well, I mean it, one of our friends and listeners, Maria,
Danielle: Uhhuh,
Krispin: uh, was talking to us about Terry Pratchett sci-fi um, author who in one of one of Terry Pratchett’s worlds. Sorry Maria, if we're getting this wrong.
Um, whatever you believe is actually true. And that's sort of like what they're saying here is like, I believe it, therefore it's true. Anyway. Okay. We know it's not illogical. We, I mean, we know it's not logical. Yeah. But I do think it's just worth-
Danielle: News flash,
Krispin: I think it's worth mentioning like what is it like growing up in that where you're given these conflicting messages of, you know, you have to have faith.
It's not something that is clear. And also if you grew up during this era, there were lots of messages of like, it is really clear, okay, this is maybe coming from a dad [00:34:00] who was a science teacher who believed in creationism and young Earth, and yes, my dad, and you can prove that creation happened.
Danielle: I mean, it is all connected. It's all illogical. You said what happens to kids who grow up in this sort of like gaslighty, toxic stew of all of this. Mm-hmm. Um, and I was just looking at my bedside drawer today and all the meds I take that barely help me function. I was like, oh yeah, high blood pressure. Um, you know, mental illness as an anxiety disorder, I also have to take something to help me sleep at night because I'm so stressed out in my sleep that I grind my teeth and have horrible pain. And, and then I also have to take something if I ever do public speaking. So I was like, okay, yeah, that's, that's it.
That's what happens. But I kind of wanna veer off and talk about just sort of like the explicit teaching in this song of how to, um, [00:35:00] listen to another voice that's not yourself, right? And so some of the verses say things like, “in my mind, I'm where I belong, as I rest in your arms and like a child, I hold onto you.”
[Clip from “Mind’s Eye”]
Okay. So teaching people to imagine themselves as a child, holding on to the hand of Jesus and going into your mind and engaging in this kind of, thought reform, right? And then it says, “we can ride the storm. We can endure the pain. You comfort me in my hurricane and I'll never be alone again.” And, and like that [00:36:00] horrifies me so much because I think I see how comforting this is to people who've experienced trauma, to people who've experienced relational disconnect. People who are suffering and feel very alone. You just tell them like Jesus is always with you, and you'll never be alone again. Your mind. In your mind, you'll never be alone again.
[Clip from “Mind’s Eye”]
We can see how that sounds good. But if we take a step back we think about how privacy is just like a fundamental right of every person. And if you grow up believing that your mind is not your own, that in fact God has access to it and Satan has, you know, sometimes access, it depends on what kind of Charismatic you are.
Because some people think demons can't read minds. I went to a whole conference about that back in the day. Um, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like this. So [00:37:00] this, this probably messed me up more than any other Christian doctrine.
Krispin: So here's what's really interesting, um, putting on my therapist hat.
Danielle: Good
Krispin: In our field of therapy, um, we've recently found, um, that doing these imaginative exercises are healing for people.
Danielle: Mm-hmm. Right.
Krispin: So that's what's really interesting is like, it actually, it, it, if I can work with a client and, um, we can imagine their grandma that loved them saying like, I see how hard this is for you. Like, I'm here for you. Like that is, on a, on a psychological level can be just as impactful as having grandma there.
Um, and so it's interesting because it's like, oh yeah, like when he says, like, in my mind’s eye I can see it, and they're saying sort of like, this is the proof that it exists. And I'm like, no. In psychology, we just know that you can do that with minds. Right. But with grandma, it's like grandma [00:38:00] has her own life and you can invite her to show up when you need her.
Um, to like be that supportive person or whoever that supportive person is. And I think what you're saying is like, God doesn't just like, you know, it's, yeah,
Danielle: No, it's like what if your grandma was in your brain at all times and everything you did throughout the day, you had to check in with your grandma.
You had to make sure your life was in line with grandma. You needed grandma to comfort you. Right. If something bad happened, you're like, well, I need to go talk to my grandma in my mind. And um, and then it kind of got weirder and weirder, right? The older you got, um, you know what I mean? Like. Uh, all of a sudden we're like, yeah, this is maladaptive, right?
This is dissociation and this is whatever. But then we take it step farther, right? And it's not just grandma, unless grandma's like a deity and the leader of a religion that everyone must also conform to. Now you have to go into the world and make sure everyone in the world is also conforming to grandma and talking to [00:39:00] grandma and doing what grandma- and voting for who grandma wants and living their lives.
You, you know, I'm like, Does that sound kind of bad, Krispin?
Krispin: Yes. Well,
Danielle: That's what's, that's, we have lived through a mass like psychosis event is how I feel when I look at songs like this. Like DC Talk wanted Billy Graham and Jerry Falwell's vision of grandma in our heads at all times. And for what purpose?
In this song, it's like, you'll never be alone again. I totally see how that works and how that gets people and how it's part of the reason I stayed so long.
Krispin: Yeah.
Danielle: But it's, it's their vision and it actively works to be maladaptive. So you never actually learn the skills to trust yourself, to trust your own gut, which makes you so susceptible to authoritarianism and exploitation, narcissistic abuse, all these things that we see happen time and time again in [00:40:00] evangelicalism.
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, it reminds me of, uh, last episode with Mark Karris talking about, um, he's like, you know, we, we have these needs.
We show up to the church, and the church is like, here's this medicine. And there's also a little bit of poison in the medicine that keeps making us sick.
Danielle: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: And I think that's like a really good picture, right? Because it is on, on the face of it, and there not even on the face of it, there is a lot of benefit to having a, like a divine or spiritual connection where it's like, I don't have to go through this world alone, but you're implanting this political
Danielle: But that’s really different. So like having a connection to the divine, like that is one of the ways humans orient themselves to the world, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: You either are like, there's a divine presence and I wanna align my life with that in order to make sure my life is okay or, right, you're like the world and being small and being present [00:41:00]is, is the other way you can kind of orient your, so like, All that is fine. I'm just saying like this is another level and I just wanna be really clear to anybody who's listening.
If you're a pastor, a spiritual director, a Christian counselor, whatever, like you cannot mess around with this shit, with telling people who come from an evangelical background to engage with the voice in their mind's eye. That is not them. Like you are playing with fire. That is a thought reform tactic and people need help, like, people need-
They do not need to imagine one more time they're talking to God. They need to learn to trust themselves. And I am pretty fired up about this because I think even progressive Christians, like they're not doing the work to help people who have been impacted by this thought reform tactic that, you know, authoritarians have used throughout history to get people to do their bidding.
Like this is what has happened in the United States. Um, so people need to stop [00:42:00] talking to Jesus if they grew up evangelical. I'm like, dude, this is my wide blanket. Like people need to take a break from all this shit. And instead, what I see happening is usually people like me, they end up going to spiritual directors, they go to people like, how can I make this less poisoning and better?
And nobody ever told me like, this actually seems like it's feeding into your lack of self trust and all this stuff. So that's my little spiel.
Krispin: Yeah.
Danielle: What I'm saying, I need people to take this seriously. Like we have undergone psychological tactics to make us not trust ourselves.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: And under the illusion, like you'll never be alone again, and you'll be happy.
And it's just like, I'm here to tell you, man, it did not make me happy. And only finding love when you align yourself with that voice of Billy Graham inside of you. Like that's so bad and so detrimental to actually being a human who's engaged in the world [00:43:00] and who takes responsibility for their own actions in the world.
Krispin: Yeah.
Danielle: Okay, I, I'm off my soapbox now.
Krispin: Okay. Okay.
Danielle: Okay. Well, we need to get to the Billy Graham part.
Krispin: Hang on. All right. I'm gonna do my impression. Okay. “Can you see gone? Have you ever seen him? I've never seen the wind. I've seen the effects of the wind, but I've never seen the wind. There's a mystery to it.”
Danielle: It is pretty bad.
Krispin: How'd I do it? Oh, I asked after you answered. I thought in, in my mind's eye that was spot on.
[Clip from “Mind’s Eye”]
Danielle: Yeah. And then, okay, so we got the we, we legit got Billy Graham in there, so that really helps us center this in like, yes, this is just a part of his freaking crusades.
That's all this is. But it is sad. It's [00:44:00] like “in my mind's eye, I see your face, you smile as you show me grace.” Um, and I just feel sad for people who are like, this is how I'm gonna get comfort in the world and this is how I'm gonna get through the world.
And it seems really, really good. And I just am like, you know, in two years it'll have been, what, 30 years since this album came out. But many people have been in that kind of a space, trying to cultivate an inner relationship with Jesus. Um, and I just, I don't see positives. Like I know, again, you're saying there are people who engage in these spiritual practices in ways that are helpful, which is why I think I've shied away from really looking into this.
But then, as soon as you start looking at brainwashing tactics, you're like, wait, wait a minute. When does that stop and the brainwashing begin. And I'm just like, well, here's a really good example of the brainwashing part. And that's Billy Graham.
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah. Do you ever think. [00:45:00] about, I know that you've been down the Dobson hole.
Danielle: Oh my gosh. No.
Krispin: Do you ever think about that? Sorry. Um, we are getting off the rails today. Um, Would you ever do a, uh, a Billy Graham, you know, go down the hole of
Danielle: Well, you, I thought you were doing that. I thought you were the one,
Krispin: I, I, I mean, I wrote about him in my book about that sermon, but I feel like there's so mu- I feel like in so many ways, I remember those tapes came out about
Danielle: Oh, I mean his rabid anti-Semitism, right? Yes.
Krispin: I feel like. If someone were to do some digging. I feel like his image has been so carefully curated.
Danielle: Oh yeah.
Krispin: That, if you just pulled back a little bit.
Danielle: Yeah. I mean, I have not done any of that work and I, I do remember going to the Christianity Today offices and like the Billy Graham museum was closed at Wheaton, so I didn't go to that either, but just
Krispin: [00:46:00] That's why you didn't go?
Danielle: I mean, I wanted to, because that was the first time I was like, This is really weird. Like, this is really weird the way we are treating him as like this hallowed figure. And I think that's what sparked me to be like, something's off. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. The, the hagiography of it all. I was like, mm-hmm.
Krispin: You're gonna have to tell me what that word means.
Danielle: Oh, just like, Okay,
Krispin: This is what happens when you're married to someone who’s smarter than you.
Danielle: Okay, cut. No, cut. Okay. Cut out all my, uh, laughter, but like, hagiography is like a biography written about somebody, but like, all positives, right? Oh, like, uh, they are on the path to sainthood and so since evangelicalism doesn't have sainthood, right?
What we have is
Krispin: museums at Wheaton.
Danielle: Museums at Wheaton and like the Christianity Today offices are like so many pictures of Billy Graham everywhere. And so that's where I was like, I don't come from like a saint [00:47:00]culture. So when I was surrounded by it, I was like, they made him into a saint. Like this seems really bad.
Um, to me, And that's when I was like, I'm, you know, I was already on my way out, but that was very telling to me. Okay. We gotta go to the last song. You ready?
Krispin: Uh huh
Danielle: First of all, you guys probably don't even know what this is because if you were like us, it had a CD or whatever, it's like, how many minutes of silence on the last secret track? A lot.
Krispin: I think a few.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Okay. And then explain to us what it is, Krispin. It's called “Alas My Love.”
Krispin: Yeah. And it is, uh, this, you know, orchestral music,
Danielle: Uhhuh,
Krispin: uh, and Kevin Max, um, doing some poetry.
Danielle: He wrote a poem. Yep. Okay.
[Clip from “Alas My Love”]
Krispin: And, uh, it does.
Danielle: [00:48:00] He really thought he was doing something here.
Krispin: Yes.
Danielle: That’s what I’ll say. That's what I'll say.
Krispin: Alas my love. You say goodbye, wipe the poison from my brow. I don't even know
Danielle: You were the target audience for this.
Krispin: It's true.
Danielle: So like, did you like this when you were
Krispin: I don't think I knew about it
Danielle: Okay.
Krispin: But I mean, I, I think I've said it before, but I went on to listen to Kevin Max's music afterward and it was very artsy, you know, so yeah, the, the first like four lines are like, don't make a lot of sense to me. You know, uh,” alas my love. You say goodbye, wipe the poison from my brow and my love, this guilty night, it gives me up like a foster child.” Mm-hmm. Just this weird, like gobbledy gook. I, you know, I'm kind of hearing it as like, I feel bad about myself, like I've made a mistake or something like that. Uh, you know, kind of artsy.
And then I feel like it takes this turn towards Carmen-land.
Danielle: Okay. He, he goes full Carmen.
Krispin: Yes. Like, it just feels so like the, the tone of his voice.
Danielle: Yeah.[00:49:00]
Krispin: Right. Um,
Danielle: It’s very much like the witch's invitation, right?
Krispin: Uhhuh, yeah, exactly. [Clip from “Alas My Love”] Right. Like you can, you can just imagine it at a, you know, a church and he's doing a skit and there's this, you know, music in the background. Um, and of course, right, it has to resolve with, um, you know, “there he finished his work on the third day.”
Danielle: Yeah, that's it. Short, weird. Doesn't make sense. Stupid, Carmen adjacent. That's how I feel about it.
Krispin: That's how they end the
Danielle: Well, I [00:50:00] mean, do you think Kevin Max was like, fine, I'll do all this Billy Graham propaganda, if you let me do a weird poem at the end? Because I do feel like he was like, I need to do this. You know what I mean? Like I have to do something artsy, but.
It's very emergent church if you ask me.
Krispin: Yes. That, I mean, like I said, a skin at church, but it also makes me think
Danielle: Like candles lit and weird velvet couches and Right.
Krispin: A Good Friday service,
Danielle: Right. Oh, yes.
Krispin: like candles go around and like the stations of the cross, but they're like all artistic pieces by like the artists in residence.
And then, you know, the, the poet, the poet in residence doing this thing.
Danielle: Exactly,
Krispin: But I mean, it's one way to end an album and we have finished it.
Danielle: Oh my gosh. We made it to the end. It is finished. We've finished our work. That was good, Krispin.
Krispin: That's finished.
Danielle: So anyways, we pinpointed, um, [00:51:00] basically where all of our religious trauma comes from and we actually worked through it and we're totally fine, totally chill, totally happy people now.
So I'm really glad we did this season.
Krispin: We're gonna have to dig up that, that meme we made again because it was a tidal wave, right. About to crash over us and I feel like we are just, you can just imagine in the tidal wave or you know, something like that.
Danielle: Well, the tidal wave has happened, but the tidal wave is the news and the tidal wave is white Christians making horrible laws in so many states targeting trans people, targeting, you know, Black books, Black educators, like any history that contradicts like this white supremacist Christian Billy Graham approved narrative of America. Like that's the actual tidal wave. And us doing this work to go back and to think about albums like Jesus Freak is, is a part of the work we wanna do as a way of, um, dealing with our own [00:52:00] religious trauma, but also as a means of harm reduction. Right? As we don't wanna perpetuate these narratives we were fed and given by folks like Billy Graham, DC Talk, Liberty University, Jerry Falwell. Um, and it's not fun. Like, it's not fun to go back and be like, oh, let's research this thing, uh, that I grew up in Evangelical Christianity.
Oops. All these people are really bad. Like, oh no, like I, I'm tired of this, doing this work. Like I am tired. But it's our reality. This is what we were given. Um, and I think it was really important for me to address some of the books that came along with this album. Um, and just that whole martyrdom complex.
We didn't even really get into it as much as I would've liked, but it's so problematic and, and the threads have just grown as far as like this approach to engaging with, with culture being a Jesus freak now means being like horrifically anti-trans to the point where you [00:53:00] want people to snitch on their neighbors and have their, you know, gender nonconforming kids taken away from it.
Like, that's where we are at. This is happening in the state of Missouri. Like this is happening in Florida, Arkansas. Like people are moving from these states like, it is happening, you guys, we've got to do the work and stand up to the people in our lives who believe this awful, awful way of being in the world where they're the only ones who are right and everyone must convert to their way of life.
And it's, it's totally related to Billy Graham. Mm-hmm. It's totally related to this album. Um, we have to do this work if, if we want it to be okay for our kids to thrive and survive.
Danielle: So,
Krispin: Mic drop.
I think it's a great way to end this series. I don't think that there's, you know, we could go on and on, um, but we'll have more conversations in the future. I think that looking at like, yeah, [00:54:00] what were all these dynamics in the nineties and how are they still present today?
How have they played out? I think is just so important. And I think, um, yeah, I, I think the theme that we keep coming back to here is that piece of like self-trust. And I think that's so important actually, not only for our own health, but for us to be able to make ethical decisions as well.
Danielle: Exactly. Um, so we are gonna take a little break and we're just so grateful to everyone who supported us on Patreon, um, we're still trying to figure out like how to make this work as far as like mental load and, and making a little bit of money. So we're, we're figuring some stuff out. We are excited about taking some creative risks because, you know, we really enjoy doing a podcast together.
But as we've mentioned in the past few episodes, like. We're kind of tired of trying to study and figure out like, what's wrong with white [00:55:00] evangelicalism, you know, like we've been doing that for a while. Um, and so we are going to do something new for our, our next season, and I don't know if we actually wanna talk about it right now, if we still wanna like, you know, we could talk about it on our Patreon only episode later
Krispin: Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Danielle: Um, but just know, like we're, we are hard at work and we're very excited about our next project. It's gonna be a bit of a pivot, but I do think, um, it's just, it's time and, you know, we can always come back. There's no, um, lack of evangelical artifacts we could always talk about.
We could come back and talk about, um, you know.
Krispin: Yeah. We're really excited to keep having conversations like we've been having this season. Um, and, you know, there will be some changes as well.
So we're so excited.
Danielle: But thanks for being on this journey with us. If you liked this season, um, you know, share it. We always forget to ask people to like, rate and review our podcast, but those are all things that really help.
Um, we've just been slowly and steadily growing and, [00:56:00] uh, yeah, it's just nice to know that there is this community,
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Danielle: Um, of folks. Struggling along.
Krispin: And also if you, if you want to continue this conversation, we have our Facebook group for our Patreon members. Um, it's been really fun to talk about all these things in there and, you know, these episodes bring up a lot for folks and I love the, um, there's also an element of like, show and tell of like, this was this thing from my childhood that we related, which has been really fun.
So thank y'all so much for the support and we will be back soon with a new season.
Danielle: Krispin we made it. We made it through the Jesus Freak album.
Krispin: I know. I'm
Danielle: I'm so proud of us.
Krispin: It is a, a pinnacle. This is, this is a lot of tracks.
Danielle: I’m gonna go eat a cupcake.
Krispin: Yeah. We gotta
Danielle: Uhhuh.
Krispin: All right. Thanks y'all.
