Bad Women of the Bible
Danielle interviews Sharifa Stevens about the book of Esther, and the Bible stories that have been romanticized - and shouldn’t have been.
Follow Sharifa on Twitter or Instagram! Also, subscribe to her substack!
Check out her chapter in Vindicating the Vixens
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TRANSCRIPT
Danielle: Hi Krispin this is our second episode of the Christian romance season. We’ve got some good feedback from the first one. I don't think anybody ever thought I would be explaining to them why romance as a genre is worth studying. I was having a conversation with somebody the other day And they were like forget like the Bebbington quadrilateral or whatever - the tenants of evangelicalism - evangelicals are basically a group of people who all bought the same stuff. And I was like oh is that what our podcast is. Before we can sort of go through these cultural artifacts that were marketed and sold to primarily young women within white evangelicalism, we do need to talk about romance when it comes to reading the Bible - this romanticized notion of white patriarchal norms that is like the undergirding of a lot of the theology. I know that sounds very dreary, it is kind of dreary. Before we get into all that I want to say: can you think of any veggies From VeggieTales that are women?
Krispin: Well the thing is, most VeggieTales are pretty phallic shaped…I'm sorry. Actually, there was a girl carrot with braids.
That's the only but that's the only one I can think
Danielle: And that's not one of the original VeggieTales, I think that was more out when like our daughter watched them.
Krispin: Right. Madame Blueberry
Danielle: Madame Blueberry. Who was Basically what Freud would call a hysterical woman. You know, so we have one female character and then the other one. VeggieTales eventually did like the story of queen Esther. And our daughter watched that too. So that's what was on my mind as I was talking Sharifa Stevens - who is the person I interviewed for this week. I was trying to think back as a kid, thinking about how women in the Bible were presented and how I was supposed to relate to women in the Bible And the truth is most of the story of women in the Bible do not end well, and it’s mostly very bad things happening to women And most women in the Bible are a unnamed. So we have this sort of trifecta and I know growing up, and even in Bible college, is where it really came to a head. It makes me feel bad to read these stories and to say like what do I have to look up to? If we are upholding all of these stories as like normative, especially the patriarchs being these great men of God. There's that underlying tension. So I think stories like Esther are really an interesting way to view like how our culture has decided to tell stories about women and even market them because I'm thinking about all of these like stuff for little girls - like Esther the most beautiful princess ever, Esther the queen who obeyed God and God blessed. She’s this huge example that’s celebrated when it came to Bible time.
Krispin: Well can I give you a theory about why other women have not been highlighted? I think that many women in the Bible are not valued or honored by patriarchal culture. So you think about like Rahab, or you think about some of the women that Jesus interacted with. You can't make them role model, because there were sex workers, for example. And so I think that's actually like part of it is - I think there is much patriarchy in the Bible, but surprisingly there are women that are shamed and devalued by patriarchy that the Bible is like ‘well, she's the hero. Sorry.’
Danielle: Like Matthew's genealogy for instance, lists a few select women in there and they're all people that like conservative white evangelical culture would not own. So that's a really good point. There is obviously subversive elements within that Jewish framework that did elevate these women.
Krispin: Well, they did a veggie tales about Jericho. Remember the peas throwing slushies on the people as they walked by? I don't remember if Rahab was in there.
Danielle: Okay, so all that to say we're not really talking about VeggieTales today We're talking about romance in the Bible and I guess that was my question for you is like growing up: Do you remember hearing about any particular women?
Krispin: Mary the mother of Jesus
Danielle: But only at Christmas time. did you hear about the Magnificat?
Krispin: No it was about her obedience. Beyond that I can't really say…Sarah, and I also have a lot of memories of Rachel and Leah
Danielle: Rachel, Leah, Hagar, Sarah. Yeah I think definitely there's a few women. You know, Lot's wife. So I think there's just not a ton there which is why we latch on to certain things. Speaking about romance in the Bible, Sharifa brings up song of Songs of Solomon. And I was like I can't even touch this with a 10 foot pole. If you want to look at how weird Christians are, just thinking about how we've interpreted the song of Solomon. As long I can remember, I grew up hearing that the song of songs was a metaphor for how God loves the church is the bride groom and we are the bride and don't really read that book very much. Okay So I haven't read that book and I've I feel like that's what we were taught at our Bible college when we went through it.
Krispin: Yeah – no, I haven't read it either Maybe that's the next thing for our sex life. Let's just read song of songs together
Danielle: I'm fine with that. According to Sharifa, if it's a lot about women's pleasure. But like were you told to like not read it?
Krispin: I just remember hearing things said about like certain traditions like not reading it until you're older but I was just told like oh yeah that's just ametaphor for Christ and the church.
Danielle: What a weird metaphor. Weird weird weird. Okay, I interviewed Sharifa and as you listen you'll probably notice that just jabber a lot because I liked her so much And that's why I'm not like a professional interviewer just cause I forgot I was recording for a podcast and we were chatting. Chatting about the patriarchy.
Krispin: It's okay - we did we did cut out a huge chunk of y'all comparing your conservative college experien es.
Danielle: Well that's what I wanted to point out really quick. I found Sharifa because she wrote this amazing essay on Vashti and a book called Vindicating the Vixens. Then looking at her educational background, she went to an Ivy league school like got her education and black cultural studies and then ended up going to Dallas seminary.
Krispin: Dallas theological
Danielle: Yes. So I was just like ‘whoa, this is a very fascinating” Her and I have been on journeys coming from these very Bible colleges. Dallas theological seminary - you know that's like Wayne Grudem land. And that's where basically all the professors that our Bible college graduated from. You know the thing was we were just like ‘this is just what Christians believe.’ I mean systematic theology - Grudem wrote the book. Like this is just what everyone's believe through all time. Now, what would you say?
Krispin: it’s just a small little splinter .
Danielle: Just small little school of men desperately trying to control other people.
Krispin: Yes, I like that I'm like ‘I would just say it's a small little splinter’ and you would say ‘it is the heart of oppressive patriarchy.’
Danielle: It is! And they were white knuckling it. So anyway, that's sort of a common denominator and it's for people like me and Sharifa who literally took it so seriously that we went to Bible college I study the Bible more that it's just really nice to have these combos where we can be honest about the text. Also, I just want to be honest, I know not everybody's in this place - but talking to people like Sharifa I'm like, “I’ll continue to read the Bible throughout my life if I have people like Sharifa to read it with.” So it may seem a little weird in this series, after this we are going to delve into like the Christian publishing world starting in the seventies started with our next interview. But today it just kind of getting to the heart of how we have romanticized the scriptures and especially how that's been used against by looking at the story of Esther.
Krispin: How have you heard Esther romanticized?
Danielle: Yeah, I think just growing up I really had this sense that it's a story of like a beautiful young girl who won a beauty pagent.
Krispin: You definitely get into that. I have a huge embarrassing confession.
Danielle: Okay?
Krispin: Listening to this, I was like oh my gosh - I realized that I missed so many gender dynamics in scripture. It was years ago that are that I was opened up to the idea of always paying attention and power dynamics in scripture. And like in certain ways, thinking about like Hagar for example, right? As being a slave there are all these like dynamics that I've kind of noticed. Like David and Bathsheba, but listening to this I was like ‘oh my gosh I am I just can't believe that I have not like paid attention in every single story where there's a where there are men and women because there's this huge power differential in every single story and scripture because of that society.’ And so that was what I most appreciated from this was hearing you two talking and being like “oh yeah, my male privilege - I'm very embarrassed to say, “oh I've totally missed this.” And I'm really excited to come back to all these stories that I've read my whole life and be like oh what did I miss? Like what is important here? There’s a part of this story that probably the writers either intended or just that I didn't read because of my upbringing.
Danielle: Yeah
Krispin: I'm excited to share it!
Danielle: Yeah! Follow Sharif on all the socials and read her work. And you know after I got off a recording with her, she just better write a whole friggin book on Esther. I'm serious.
Krispin: Blow up her socials about Esther
Danielle: and Vashti content
INTERVIEW
Danielle: Okay, So today I get to Stevens about something that is near and dear to my heart. And we're going to be chatting about some stuff to do with the Bible and romance. What is in that Christian bubble where you know we were raised to romanticize parts of the Bible that perhaps should not have been romanticized at all. but Shereifa, I think the way I met you was I got a copy of this book called...Vindicating the Vixens. So there's this book - It is called vindicating the Vixens. And it's what is the subtitle? Revisiting Sexualized Vilified and Marginalized Women of the Bible?
Sharifa: yes, it’s a mouthful.
Danielle: That is a mouthful, but it's very it's a good mouthful. This book came out in 2017, so it was right after Trump was elected. I read that book, and I mean to be perfectly honest - your essay jumped out of all of them. I found you on Twitter or something And I was like Oh my gosh because you did an entire chapter on Vashti. Vashti who is, you know, in the story of Esther is somebody I never spent more than one second thinking about and you kind of unpack why that happened but before we kind of dig into that I want to say that you know I know that you're kind of here there and everywhere on the internet. I mean and you're also just like a really busy mom, who's surviving a pandemic.
Sharifa: That's right .
Danielle: I love following you on Twitter I know that you're on a couple of awesome podcasts someone that people love to talk to about a wide variety of topics but would you want to go ahead and just tell people a little bit about who you are before
Sharifa: Sure Well first of all I just want to say I'm really glad that you emailed me that day, and thank you so much for taking time to read the essay. I think that my contribution to that book is a good example of who I am. So I want to make the Bible accessible to people I don't want to feign objectivity. I believe that I come from a specific place and that is what is beautiful and helpful in interpreting the text. And it needs to be, for me, applicable to what's going on today. So you know I started that chapter with my own breakup because it made sense to me. I ultimately people to see the people in the Bible and not nearly as concepts or prescription. Necessarily but people who were processing um life with other people and with [00:16:00] God uh or without God and without other people um I am a first generation American I have Jamaican parented I grew up in New York city So that definitely formed me It was like another parent in terms of Lots of lessons about people food art culture language um sitting with traveling with people who are from different places and having that be the norm And it was such a valuable education for me And I didn't realize it until I left how potent and wonderful it is And complex Of I am a writer Sometimes I'm an editor Sometimes [00:17:00] I am a parent all the
Danielle: Yeah Yeah
We just are going to laugh maniacally for a few
Sharifa: March 12th, 2020 was the last time my kids were In school outside of our
Danielle: You know that's fine That's my actual that's my birthday March 12th And that was the last that was the last day My older child
Sharifa: um
Danielle: good happy birthday Happy birthday to me
Sharifa: Have you read today Yeah
Danielle: So what I kind of want to chat a little bit with you is you know when I read your essay on Vashti in this book um you know it I think exactly what you said is right on is you were like I'm going to start this off with saying who I am You're a woman who's experienced heartbreak you know you're uh you talk about Esther and you even bring out these [00:18:00] ideas of like passing and what it's like for black people who have to try and pass and situations uh you know all these things I'm just This unveils so much more of this biblical story than I ever realized And it was so it was like so amazing to read it And then there's also that sorrow that comes along That's like why didn't I know this before I'm so grateful to Sharifa for doing this but it seems like the gatekeepers story you know have either blindly missed it or you know miss on some of these connotations I just love you I love your
Sharifa: gonna make me cry
Danielle: I hope you keep going And I just kind of want to start to unpack here a little bit what you said about Vashti um in this in this article and for those who aren't familiar book of Esther is the story of um well I don't know Do you want to sum it up better than me I'm like
Sharifa: I got real quiet Cause I was like how is she going to do it
Danielle: I don't want to do it
Sharifa: [00:19:00] I feel like I feel like Esther is such a roar shack test
Danielle: I'll do the I'll do the VeggieTales version Okay My daughter grew up watching VeggieTales version of Esther and Esther is a beautiful young girl that God prepares for such a time as this to go and marry the king She won the beauty pageant She's the prettiest She gets to be married to the king and then she's in that position of privilege and power And eventually she to not kill Jewish people her people um Right That's the veggie tales version So it's kind of like a beauty pageant on steroids Um but also it is a love story of God's Providence um people Being allowed to survive And uh so an important story in Jewish tradition of course I wasn't taught that growing up in white evangelicalism but the beauty pageant stuff was really hammered down to me Like all the they washed with and all [00:20:00] how Esther prepared you know to get ready for the king And uh you know looking back weird um how much that was talked about in my context but Vashti is that the isn't Esther chapter one And Vashti is the first wife I don't know if she's the first wife she's the wife that the book opens with Who's married to the king Xerxes and then uh she has a So I'll let you take it from there you could sum it up again if he was
Sharifa: Oh my goodness
Danielle: us into Vashti
Sharifa: So yeah I think Esther is a Rorschach test of sorts and people bring all sorts of fascinating um interpretations to it Like it's uh a comedy of sorts with reversal and um irony or it's a love story which I [00:21:00] don't know how
Danielle: People cannot see your face but you are making some terrible faces Just note for the audio Okay What do you said
Sharifa: Yes grim missing Um I had an I I look at Esther and see maybe not the love story that people are touting but it's the story of the love of God and how God God sees
God sees and cares for people who are not seen and care for by society And so Esther herself um has so much I mean we we continue to call her by [00:22:00] Her traffic to name you know her name is Hadassah That's the name of her people uh and her ethnic background but does And there's something to that where you know she is like Vashti There's a lot of ways that she's a race or a invisible um and The way I interpret the way a person interprets the book of Esther matters because we can we can set God up as a
sovereign have a better kingdom of one who opposes uh the prideful Caprice uh the user The debauchery that [00:23:00] is in the calculating uh coldness and oppression That's that's symbolized through uh has you RS and his counsel we can see God as the one who opposes that Or we can see God as a co-conspirator and a trafficker along with um the council of As you RS simply using uh the bodies of women where the ends justify the means somehow And so I choose to see I can't see God like that Cause then God is no bigger than the trafficker than the the prideful king Then the Misogynistic Right I can't I cannot see God like that [00:24:00] And the biggest reason I cannot is not just not just my own comfort and not just my very embodied and ontological existence but it is um that I interpret This and everything in the Bible through the lens of Jesus Christ and I and Jesus as the translator and interpreter of any text including this w I have to ask okay what what is you the saying Well what kind of kingdom with what this be with Jesus place What did the gospels tell me about how he would have treated in a Hadassah or Avastin And everything is very consistent in the light of who And so I and I know I'm like I'm falling and I'm imperfect And I [00:25:00] am looking at the Bible with uh from a very specific location but I I believe I'm right I believe I'm right because Because I'm translating and it has you ours is not adding to God's ideal as you RS is not adding up like this his his kingdom versus Jesus's wins you know it's just better It's just it's better for Esther It's better for the last year And it's better for the humble of a person or of the Jewish diaspora
Danielle: Yeah And so some of these like simplistic retellings we have of Esther do paint it as a romance a love story It has the awareness that you say it
Sharifa: That's how I say it We can say Xerxes
Danielle: [00:26:00] use their excuse is easier but I want to be I don't want I want to be correct but I'm like that other so bad um has awareness Xerxes whoever um isn't really bad dude And I think you are kind of bringing out this tension that I sort even when I was reading your article 2017 which is like disgusted that I have been told was a love story that this was good news Of course he was seen as like kind of bad but then he gets redeemed by Esther because what he does Devash D right And Esther one kind of sets up the story which is he's having this big festival with his dude's It's like what day seven of
Sharifa: Yeah
Danielle: their hearts are married with wine And he demands that Vashti parade in front of him and his dues And she says no And so then he gets super pissed And so him and his dudes come up with some laws that you know wives have to [00:27:00] submit to their husbands Right Wayne Grudem is just pleased as punch about these laws I'm sure Um and then he you know kicks her out dismisses her She's no longer queen then you know four is it four years later we have um Esther and the beauty pageants and trying to find him a new king a new queen all this stuff And So I think that's what I did feel Just like you like the patriarchy made this into a love story and that can't be right Like cannot be how God's Providence works Um and honestly the phrase God's Providence leaves a bad taste in my mouth because that usually does in my match up to what you know white men uh think God is doing in the world And you were just able to articulate Listen both Vashti and Esther defied the patriarchy They stood up horrible abusive toxic [00:28:00] at great cost And you really honored Vashti honored Esther And I was just like this is a story The honors The defiance of women like
Sharifa: that's it right there
Danielle: holy scripture
Sharifa: it right there Very beautiful distillation
Danielle: want that to be true so bad And I'm like you I'm like you where I have a little bit of a hard time saying this is what it means Um just because I know people do that all the time and they twist it in their but I also believe like if I'm going to still be a Christian Like God has to for for women
Sharifa: exactly
Danielle: And I would even go so far as to say it's like if we're looking at our society right Currently now but also you know even in Esther's day like God has to be good news for marginalized women [00:29:00] women who have you know systematically on purpose being devalued and Shut out of power and shut out of being the ones who get to say what God is like like God has to be good news for them or I'm out I'm just out
Sharifa: Yeah Why why else are we Why else are Like
Danielle: this is not a love And I want to kind of unpack why you think it was that it was is it because there's like so stories about women that even have a slightly happy ending in the Bible I'm just I'm just spit balling here Like what do we think is going on
Sharifa: I think that the interpretation is a result of who benefits who who gets heard just the concept of of women being in the room so to speak when it came to interpreting to [00:30:00] translation when it comes teaching that at every section there's a gatekeeper At every at every turn at the Bible translation turn because and of course because there's no there's no training available This is what happens when you bar people from the room then they they start to flatter themselves Like I see this all over Christian men who hold up fall consequences of the flight As the way to relate to women consequences of and so they start to see themselves in the the fallen ness and not in prophetic imagination of of Jesus and not not even in the identic like ideal [00:31:00] before They think it is their place to rule over Right Um they think and so a has you areas then his counsels start to look godly if if the fall is your routine
Danielle: Yeah And I think what you're spelling out is like a lot of complimentarians you know they do say their theology from Genesis like the first few chapters in Genesis Right And that happened to be in Crispin at our last church It's like when we started asking questions about women not being allowed to be pastors you know LGBTQ people not being allowed to serve in most capacities It's funny the free labor church was we'll take um until you get to a certain point then they want to talk about uh your your life with you Um but really when they started saying like this is the core of the gospel This is found in the first few chapters of You know [00:32:00] complementarianism men are in charge of and women and and I just thought Core of your is that uh
Sharifa: But that's not that's literally not the gospel
Danielle: I know And so
Sharifa: It's like literally not
Danielle: but I think you're right in saying that being a core issue is how we have Esther you know as a beauty pageant Um that's how we get if you might right now is a mess because I said people should see Using Hillsong worship music and their services Hillsong um you know there's
Sharifa: I haven't seen
Danielle: so much corruption and there's a new documentary out about it Um they're very abusive They've covered up for child sexual abusers for many many years all this stuff It's like yeah let's not pay them any money by playing their songs And everybody's like oh does that mean we shouldn't read the Psalms anymore Because king David did some bad things
Sharifa: I just am very confused [00:33:00]
Danielle: whole thing is like if we take men being bad seriously like where's the line where's the line Where's the line And I'm just like you are telling on
Sharifa: Absolutely There is no
Danielle: is abusive Men should not be in positions of power especially within the church I hope And we should not be giving them money in any capacity I'm like how is that So weird to
Sharifa: I think it's weird to say because in their in their practice God continues to bless
Danielle: you just said it out loud and it's so that that is what think and believe And I'm just saying world is not as bad as that Like there are other people do not have to have do not need to access This is the way it always has been Always no
Sharifa: The tears that I've cried over that [00:34:00] uh it's it's one thing for us to engage in the Twitter controversy like which is it's crazy making And boundaries with that how many of us have survived How many of us have survived abuse men and women And uh the Christian thing to do is to forgive and forget This is this is all the solace that we're given and the person who abuses us if they can spiritualize Then they're okay There is no shelter and that's the thing that
[00:35:00] I pains me consider And I think that's also part of why I care about how things are interpreted because I know how When I hear people championing bath sheep is complicitness in her own room
Danielle: I mean my my first book they edited out I wrote about you know David raping best sheep and they edited that out Like it's still so hard for say that what happened but it's read that or people who don't have power read the Bible you know we just bring an awareness of these power think in our bodies when we read the text and one of the things that's been so hard growing up as a white evangelical woman is I have that awareness in my body [00:36:00] And yet the patriarchy benefits me in some ways And so there's this push pull Do I acquiesce to this Do I resist What do I do Um and if you don't resist right If you don't be like a Vashti but if you submit you're rewarded Right And so I think You know this whole season is mostly going to be talking about the books that white women are drawn to but it's not only white women that read robe Christian romance And it's not only white women that uh you know approach the Bible with uh lots of complex feelings when it how do I view this book as a woman How do I You know as a woman but I do think white women in the U S have a lot going on as far as yeah you are privileged prioritized and
Sharifa: yes Yeah
Danielle: you submit to all the rules and the second you step out of line you lose all of that lose all of that And so uh you know the stakes are real [00:37:00] her there but I just think Well you know reading your essay It reminds me of like later on I found you know will the Gaffney and some other woman as and you know you so you are my entryway womanist theology
Sharifa: I am so oh my goodness What an honor because I feel like that's womanism is saving right now If I had to write the chapter again my sources would be so different
Danielle: Oh tell me about
Sharifa: There would be they would grow so much just because Because I know of a of a wilderness Gaffney Renita Weems like it's like these women were never in my syllabus And you know like when we're when we're being um catechized [00:38:00] in in these theological spaces there's a There's a suspicion of the other that at least at my school it meant that that if if you're suspicious of a source you don't study them They don't show up in the syllabus They don't show up in the electives and all the trustworthy people did not look like me They just didn't So I you know I had I had a beautiful undergraduate education and I was an African-American studies major And like it was an interdisciplinary um major So yeah quite comfortable with my blackness and with my place in the African diaspora But as far as my theological education it was just it it was not the technical Of the rest of my education all [00:39:00] And then I so then I'm just like what do I trust in myself There's that internal struggle Um because I don't want to be arrogant And I also know that every metaphor shouldn't be about football when you're talking to me about Jesus like every every Professors shouldn't be talking about well yeah if you want to be good at ministry get yourself a good wife It's just so much It's just so many levels of our own like theological malnourishment And for me like to see Women who look like me who are able to elucidate the text in a way that dignifies uh it's like a spring after being ignored or cast to the side or just not as important And and having that be [00:40:00] like so normative that everybody expects that you know well that Little lady you'll be saved through childbearing
Danielle: Oh my
Sharifa: You know you know this is to have that call that that rancid air just be so normative I felt like I was breathing and I don't know it was just fresh air getting to read uh these women as uh works I don't know I feel like God Doesn't have a romance emphasis in the same way A lot of evangelicalism does that that kind of pioneering self-sufficient unit of the nuclear family
Danielle: Like everything everything ends at the wedding you know kind of thing That is not I mean you are so right I don't think I've ever heard anybody articulate it It's like Our [00:41:00] visions of romance especially if they come from sort of like a white you know patriarchal lens like is so not there in scripture And this is something I went through my Bible college right I went to Bible college uh be a missionary colonizer 1 0 1 And it's just so embarrassing but it's also true that like I was a really intense young woman and I couldn't be a pastor because right I was
Sharifa: Unless it's a broad
Danielle: and I was obsessed with God Right And so what is uh a young intense woman who's obsessed with God do in that context It's like I guess you know I do overseas but when I read the Bible it's just like God is not obsessed with the nuclear family God has really obsessed with like the concept of neighborliness
Sharifa: Yes
Danielle: and I was just really [00:42:00] shocked by that and not just Jesus because of course I love reading the parables I love reading everything about Jesus but like the the Hebrew scriptures Oh my gosh like we are obsessed with you know what the triad of the vulnerable right The orphan the the foreigner And I'm obsessed with everybody flourishing and absurd Like this is God And that became like You know the great romance of my life is like I think there's a God who loves me and who loves
Sharifa: Yes
Danielle: I think there's a God who's not okay with injustice
Sharifa: Yeah
Danielle: That's the love story of my life Sharifa Like if I hope God is as good as I think God is I really
Sharifa: Yes
Danielle: that's what's getting me Right And that's not the kind of God I got at my Bible But I found God right when I read the And when [00:43:00] I went out and tried as see everybody in their city flourish And so it's helpful to unpack this with you even like I feel like I'm having all these revelations like our our way of approaching the scriptures through this lens of romance it doesn't work It doesn't
Sharifa: it's a forced fit And it I mean now we can talk about songs songs
Danielle: I do not want
Sharifa: Oh okay then
Danielle: you say you say what you would have said
Sharifa: Well the question was is there any romantic relationship in the Bible
Danielle: Oh yeah I wanted to
Sharifa: that you would be happy
Danielle: Yeah
Sharifa: song song Put me put me right there I like that action
Danielle: Wow [00:44:00] I mean talk about women being valued right That's what that's one of the few
Sharifa: It's not even just valued It's like this very free flowing sexual expression
Danielle: Yeah
Sharifa: So it's not like
Danielle: Yeah Good things happen to the women
Sharifa: Good thing good things are happening to the but not only are they happening to the woman but the woman is also initiating some of these good things that are happening to her And there's a very Frank expression of you know I think you are fine come over you know especially in light of a faulty perspective that says we don't see things as women We just want good frilly feeling Whereas you know men are visually stimulated like this false dichotomy created by who I don't know not me Not not most of the women I know
Danielle: Yeah Men with unhappy wives came up with that [00:45:00] is that bad to say
Sharifa: Well no it's not It's like well it's your fault that you're unhappy No it's you don't know where my
Like can we just name it Are we doing that I'm sorry You can just redact it if we're not so
Danielle: This is why I said I can't talk about but I love I
Sharifa: oh sorry
Danielle: I love you talking about do not apologize This is great because what I think about that question I had this know there's not a single the Bible that I would want to If I'm being really honest you know And I was like we were going to have to tackle the topic of romance when it comes to the Bible And there's so many like spinoff romance books right That come out of like the biblical story And I I can't I don't have the time to but let's just say is this is something that has been done Right It's like women trying to engage Biblical time periods [00:46:00] or the stories you know through with none of that does it for me And that's fine Um and I think it's fine if if you enjoy those kinds of books but I think we when we were talking about theology we need to say who are we looking to to help us that God is for Because that is not how I read the Bible up And I couldn't talk to anybody Right I couldn't say this seems like bad and one thing you know another thing womanist theologians have done for me is they have said it's okay to be mad It's okay To rage It's okay To scream mourn grieve lament like please do For these women in the scriptures most of whom are unnamed as your spiritual practice When you read the scriptures mourn these [00:47:00] women and who knew I mean other people knew I did not know how important that would be for me to do If I was ever going to read the Bible like
Sharifa: Yes the the permission is so I don't know I think because I come from a similar background there's as far as the practice of uh my home church the church that I grew up in great church Um but between church and family cultures to be able to say well why I'm not I'm not I'm unhappy Why did God send Hagar back Like to be able to say
Danielle: Why was Sarah such a bitch You know what I mean
Sharifa: after she knew what it was like to be [00:48:00] given to just be given like Piece of property How dare she respond that Right
Danielle: Yeah
Sharifa: But I I too grew up in a space where that would be answered with God is sovereign and he knew what he was doing And Hagar must have done something that deserved that that response from God because God is perfect But I'm like okay well God is perfectly holy Okay So explain explain explain this in in in my context like which should we should should we rejoice that Sally Hemings was taken by Thomas Jefferson Like should we rejoice [00:49:00]
Danielle: I mean
Sharifa: What do we
Danielle: it you took it seriously So when people talk about God's sovereignty and God's Providence right There's people like you and me who are like but what about All the people who have suffered and you know the the people in my Bible college were like yeah that's just all a part of God's plan And like John Piper will just tell you like God's ways in our ways I don't understand it but I'll just tell you what it is
Sharifa: it sounds
Danielle: like
Sharifa: colonizer theology
Danielle: Yes
Sharifa: Where you're you're able to be uh blahzay and comfortable with the suffering of other people but then you the sufferings never for you
Danielle: But it's always for when ed
Sharifa: Yes
Danielle: it as a part of God's plan So that that really is a part of the Esther story and how it is kids And I just love I just pointing out like Nope that is not what God's Providence means And that is so helpful
Sharifa: No I think [00:50:00] God's Providence is in that that the subversive way that God uses the orphan exile trafficked girl to bring about the liberation of they would never look to her If they were looking for candidates for liberation it would be maybe Mordecai but the fact that he would redeem that I just you know cause I ha I think about what it must have been like for her to to enter into the palace against her Will I And I feel like people need to be responsible with the text and understand that if they're romanticizing the um lack of choice The lack of consent of a woman or a girl in her uh [00:51:00] to be tried on what are the implications for your your sisters your daughters What what are you implying Where are you in that equation You know because it's one thing in a monarchy I don't know I'm going to give more to Chi the benefit of the doubt that there was very little that is Monarch is not where we don't even understand our context But when you are able to freely say well year Now there is there there's a good woman and this is a good visit a good marriage like look at how she treated as you Whereas
You can feel better but like when you're looking at that what what are you what message are you sending Are you sending that a good [00:52:00] marriage Because what did Cirque CS do to prove that he was a good spouse not kill her
Danielle: kill her That makes him really good I guess
Sharifa: That makes him awesome This is the standard for men in marriages Meanwhile
Danielle: a God ordain bear
Sharifa: in a Dodd ordained marriage So implicitly God approves of this
Danielle: And that's what I got That's what I got
Sharifa: there there you go So it's one way God approved at the standard is don't kill your wife For walking into the and then the standard for Hadassah is change your name cloud cloud your your your origin story Don't be seen for anything but the way you
Danielle: Yeah Be really pretty is definitely also what I got
Sharifa: right that'd be young Keep it tight
Danielle: No hot [00:53:00] and know how to please the king
Sharifa: And and don't we right Know how to play so no let's not even put it that way Cause it's too it's It's too sanitized Right Like sex is is does not have to be consensual to be good in the eyes of God and a good marriage It is not it is not a mutually pleasurable experience It can be it can be coerced Okay And that's good You marriages in marriages wives should not speak directly to their husbands They need to manipulate and stage
like this is this is what we want to make formative because the fact is dude was problematic Do was able he was so gullible that anybody could change as well Is this [00:54:00] do do you really want to see yourself as that Like I don't understand why men would You're so you're so gullible that here's a counsel who tells you to make a law Here's a man who who tricks you into a poker room It's a genocide You could be treated Here's a woman who feeds you and then changes your mind again
Danielle: That's terrifying And honestly it kind of sounds like Donald Trump I could see all of those things happening to him over a round of golf You know what I mean Like
Sharifa: Oh absolutely He and he he is a symptom of that sickness Like the support for him is uh
Danielle: to how we've read the book of Esther I think you I mean I think you've made that case and I'm like it like that's why we have to talk about this more I [00:55:00] will say as you're talking I was like you were talking about things that you couldn't even fit in that short article Um I hope that uh you know someday you will write a longer project On the book of Esther because your essay is supposed to be on Vashti but you do talk about Esther
it
Sharifa: think the author does that the author talks about fasty in order to talk about Esther to there they are on the same of resistance
Danielle: And I love that So I hope Yeah I'll just keep thinking about it I hope maybe you'll write about it Uh you know we have to kind of wrap up this conversation the podcast but it's just been so lovely to talk to you And I knew I was going to have some revelations and I did have some
I just I am leaving this conversation feeling lighter in my spirit because it's not [00:56:00] It just and I'm tired of pretending Um so I thank you for the permission you've given us Not have to try and parts that shouldn't be um which actually helps me what is the good you know in scripture So thank you for coming on here Thank you for talking to me This has been uh just a joy and where can people find you if they want to follow you
Sharifa: Um they can find me I have a uh substance
Danielle: Oh
Sharifa: Um which I should know the name of but I don't um I know it's called where and when I enter when and where I enter but I don't remember
Danielle: we'll put it in the show notes We'll put it in the show notes Okay
Sharifa: So yeah And so that's where I'm directing myself to write these days You can find me on Twitter [00:57:00] I'm at Sharifa And also you can most of the time not find me on Instagram at Sharifa writes as well
Danielle: Are you on Twitter more Is that
Sharifa: I'm trying to weed myself off Zuckerberg
Danielle: that's good
Sharifa: Yeah He eats be using us But so this sweater but I don't know I'm trying to I'm trying to see if I could live life without
Danielle: me yeah tell me how it goes I like it occasionally but um and these days I just is a bit much So that's just my reality saying that's for everybody
Sharifa: Yeah it can be a lot And we uh you know you got guard your
Danielle: it's hard apart in every direction [00:58:00] That's the truth So sh so Sharifa on that note on that note you know both of us are going to go back to our kids after and just so much for this
